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H.R.25 – Repeal income tax and abolish the Internal Revenue Service
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- aurizon 2y agoIRS = very crooked. Take gambling and lotteries. We know house = wins. Yet the IRS grabs huge % of lottery winnings, yet does not allow gamblers to deduct their ticket costs = a huge unearned windfall for the IRS. Here in Canada the CRA (functions like IRS) is fair, lotteries are not taxed and thus no deductions for tickets. Seems to be a relic of religious oppression - IHMO
- markhahn 2y agoOther than lottery winners, who cares? Is there some reason lottery winnings (or other forms of gambling) should be treated gingerly?
- aurizon 2y agoNot gingerly, just reflect the correct profit/loss = since the house wins, it is a defacto double tax
- JojoFatsani 2y agoSo maybe don’t gamble?
- tzs 2y agoLottery ticket costs are deductible, but only up to the amount of your lottery winnings. E.g., if you bought 1000 $1 tickets and won $12000, you could deduct $1000.
- aurizon 2y agobut most are losers = unsymmetrical = it should be fully deductible as it is made with the object of making money
- gedpeck 2y agoI sincerely hope this gets enacted. It would be great for states like California to stop subsidizing states like Louisiana.
- jmclnx 2y agoI was thinking the same, I live in one of those states too. But I expect if not done with great care, we will be in for a real bad economic ride. Edit: The more I think about this, this could morph into a Federal Sales Tax, keeping or reducing the Income tax (for the rich of course) as it makes its way through.
- gedpeck 2y agoIndeed we will but I think we are past the point of having a long term stable republic. Stuff like this bill and withholding aid to California normalize in liberal states the idea that secession is a possibility. We are entering in an era where it is going to be more than just crazy right wing nut jobs that talk secession.
- markhahn 2y agoIt doesn't really have to be that way, does it? Yes, they're very loud right now, but what's preventing a set of (non-MAGA) voices from presenting a coherent counter that includes concern for efficiency and effectiveness, but still with, you know, united states. It's almost like there's a lot of lead in DC water, since the level of discourse hardly rises above nutty...
- gedpeck 2y agoI’m a liberal and I favor secession. It doesn’t have to be this way but it is this way now. There are major power imbalances. Neither chamber of Congress has proportional representation. Several times in recent elections the Presidential candidate with the majority of the votes did not win. In my mind the American Republic died when the insurrectionist leaders didn’t go to jail.
- gigel82 2y agoIt works for Somalia, I'm sure we can all strive to get to that level one day.
- jmclnx 2y agoThis is my expectation if this is signed by the orange idiot.
- joecool1029 2y agoI upvoted because you were downvoted and I suspect most of HN thinks you are kidding (maybe you are or aren't, please do explain), but it appears like it was only last year they enacted a similar policy: https://somalipublicagenda.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/SPA_Policy_Paper_08_2024_ENGLISH1.pdf https://somalipublicagenda.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/SP... The US also cancelled a large amount of their debt (previously 96% of the country's GDP was going toward servicing it): https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/nov/06/somalia-debt-relief-us-cancels-billion-dollar-loans-hipc https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/nov/06/s... I don't have any opinion but I do have thoughts about how the US is operating on a very different scale (who will cancel our debt, and at that scale does it matter?).
- gigel82 2y agoIt was tongue-in-cheek but not kidding. Somalia is on a list of only 16 countries in the world without an income tax, all the others have a single industry generating most of the income for the population (tourism or oil).
- throw16180339 2y agoThat's apparently what the majority of the country wants.
- CabSauce 2y agoIt shouldn't really need to be mentioned at this point, but sales taxes are extremely regressive. The burden is shouldered by people with lower incomes. Edit - source: https://taxfoundation.org/taxedu/glossary/regressive-tax/ https://taxfoundation.org/taxedu/glossary/regressive-tax/
- knallfrosch 2y ago[flagged]
- some-guy 2y agoThat is, unfortunately, the point.
- panarky 2y agoIt should be obvious by now that the whole game is to shift cost and risk to the bottom 90% while shifting profit and wealth even further to loyalists among the top 0.1%. Viewed through this lens, the whole program is remarkably internally consistent. Tariffs on imports, cuts to corporate taxes, capital gains taxes and estate taxes, indiscriminate across-the-board reductions of 50% or more to regulatory agencies, etc.
- Dig1t 2y agoAren’t tariffs just corporate taxes which are paid by big corps who import stuff built overseas? At least when you incentivize stuff to get built here the money goes to union workers or at least stays within the US. Also the regulatory cuts are sorely needed at this point. It took longer to get regulatory approval for the Starship rocket than it did to actually build the rocket (the biggest and most complicated rocket ever built).
- legitster 2y ago> At least when you incentivize stuff to get built here the money goes to union workers or at least stays within the US. We could frame this another way - if every state in the US enacted tariffs on every other state, would we all be collectively richer or poorer? Maybe some states could set up their own cottage automotive industry, but overall there is going to be more deadweight loss to the economy than revenue made by the tariffs.
- Twirrim 2y agoYet another attempt to shift tax burdens to the working class. Yay. (/s if that wasn't obvious)
- einpoklum 2y agoThe tax burden in the US already is mostly on the working class. Corporate tax rates were low and were reduced further during Trump's first term - and Biden made no attempt to raise them. One should also remember that low minimum and median wages are "pre-burdening" the working class, i.e. constitute a different form of tilting the distribution of economic power, and access to goods and services, away from workers. And minimum and median US wages are quite low relative to the wealth of the US as a whole.
- nickff 2y agoIncreasing corporate taxes wouldn't necessarily shift the burden off the working class (though it might). Individuals react to taxes by reducing consumption of 'luxuries', whereas corporations don't experience luxuries, so increases in expenses (including taxes) cause increased prices, reduced wage expenses, reductions in dividends, or reduced capital. Increased prices and reductions in wages (either pay cuts or layoffs) are the most frequent reactions to tax increases, as investors have international alternatives, and so demand maintenance of the value of their asset.
- riggins 2y ago> The tax burden in the US already is mostly on the working class. not really https://www.federalbudgetinpictures.com/do-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/ https://www.federalbudgetinpictures.com/do-the-rich-pay-thei... https://taxfoundation.org/research/all/eu/taxing-high-income-2019/ https://taxfoundation.org/research/all/eu/taxing-high-income...
- frumper 2y agoThe first link ignores payroll taxes because it doesn't paint the same picture. The second link seems to show the US tax rates are significantly lower for the upper echelon compared to other first world countries.
- icsa 2y agoThere is precedent for no federal income tax in the United States. Prior to the federal income tax (1913), all federal government expenses were covered by duties, tariffs, and levies.
- gedpeck 2y agoThere is also precedent for child labor and slavery in the U.S. Societies are far more complex now and the administration and governance of them are correspondingly more complex.
- zamalek 2y ago> Societies are far more complex now Exactly: we have a superior moral compass. Complexities of society aside, other comments rightfully point out that sales tax has a higher burden the lower the income.
- taeric 2y agoI'd be interested in knowing what the cost of maintaining infrastructure for the US prior to that date was? My gut is this is akin to thinking you could go back to the income you had when you were living with your parents, not realizing that you now have so much more that you have to take care of. Could probably go further and ask how much it was costing to expand infrastructure? It isn't like they opted for a larger source of income for no reason?
- Terr_ 2y ago> Prior to the federal income tax (1913) Also during 1862-1872 and 1892-1895. > covered by duties, tariffs, and levies Which come with an equally long history of demonstrated problems, like being economically-inefficient and prone to corruption. That last concern is particularly relevant given the criminality of the Trump administration: How many suitcases of cash does it take to get a special exception for/against your friends/allies?
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- markhahn 2y agoIOW "burn it all down". I never thought I'd see anarchists being called "Republican".
- krapp 2y agoThey aren't anarchists. They absolutely believe in the state and the monopoly on violence, and the legitimacy of their own power. They aren't even eliminating taxation - they just want to replace everything with a sales tax.
- hypeatei 2y agoThe things they want to burn down don't benefit working class people either, just the billionaire class that is surrounding Trump for the next administration (which includes the richest man in the world, Elon Musk) For as much as I hear about the "deep state" from MAGA, you think they'd want to actually address that by abolishing / reforming agencies like the CIA or NSA.
- bdangubic 2y agoEveryone who thinks that "deep state" is a problem in the United States should go to any country which does not have "deep state" (e.g. Russia, China...) and see how that works out for them :)
- legitster 2y agoTo be fair, Republicans have consistently opposed the income tax since the 1800s.
- seanmcdirmid 2y agoMaybe, but Lincoln established the IRS and the first income tax (today's Republicans descend more from Andrew Jackson than they do from Lincoln, though).
- legitster 2y agoLincoln's tax was universally hated even within his own party and was only authorized for a few years to pay for the war.
- bloopernova 2y agoI hope all these planned economic measures don't cause another great depression. Seems like a lot of economic Jenga blocks being removed, with potentially very bad consequences.
- jrs235 2y agoDid you say "depression"? Billionaires with assets and money love fire sales! What better way to get even further ahead! Expect a recession or depression. Those coming in don't care about the majority that gave them the only thing they needed (a vote) and only needed it once to further their gains and wealth.
- 9283409232 2y agoAbolishing income tax is secondary to the real goal of abolishing the IRS and handing more power to the oligarchy. Don't get distracted.
- Dig1t 2y agoThe IRS has agents who train with assault rifles. The “oligarchs” do not.
- 9283409232 2y agoThe oligarchs just call them police officers.
- Dig1t 2y agoDo the oligarchs control the police force? Last I checked the government (IRS) had a monopoly on violence.
- 9283409232 2y ago> Do the oligarchs control the police force? Yes. I'm shocked you don't see it but you will eventually.
- dgrin91 2y agoWhat about all their private security?
- legitster 2y agoCurrently, the top 50% of taxpayers pay 89% of all federal income taxes. And only about half of Americans pay income tax. So doing some back of envelope math, that corresponds to maybe about a $200 tax savings for the median citizen. But an increase of about $600 on their purchases. This is an extremely bad deal even if you are moderately wealthy. Income tax is not an ideal tax, but at least by its nature it's leveraged on people with income. But a sales tax affects you even if you are retired. There is no strategic savings strategy you can use to avoid it. There's an irony that the last election was supposedly about inflation and the economy - but between this, the tariffs, and the (supposed) foreign policy agenda - we're looking at one of the most expensive US administrations sessions ever.
- rickydroll 2y agoI agree with what you wrote but your opening statement could use some nuance. What portion of taxpayers don't pay tax because they make too little compared to those using tax avoidance schemes not to pay tax? Of the top 50%, what does the tax vs income chart look like? As income rises, where does spending money come from? Wages, CC, selling stocks/bonds, loans backed by assets (stocks, bonds, etc) This info could help refine where taxes should go. I have come to accept that a wealth tax would be a good tax to have. I came to this by playing around with the simplistic model at the end of the pudding article linked to below. It approximates the impact of a wealth tax. https://pudding.cool/2022/12/yard-sale/ https://pudding.cool/2022/12/yard-sale/
- slackfan 2y agoFantastic for climate.
- cyberge99 2y agoRussia loves this for us.