8 ms·

Why do small children in Japan ride the subway alone?

47 points by feyman_r 2y ago

PoppinFreshDo 2y ago
Having an unbelievable level of public safety probably has something to do with it. Let's hear it for strong public prosecutors
- feyman_r 2y ago
  The article, other than the headline, describes a few more details on how kids as young as 6 years old do things different, other the the subway part of it. Public safety doesn't come from fear of repercussions alone, I feel (which probably what 'strong public prosecutors' brings).
  - HKH2 2y ago
    Public safety does come from repeat offenders being behind bars.
- ryan_lane 2y ago
  > Let's hear it for strong public prosecutors Let me guess, you're a conservative who thinks being "tough on crime" is the answer to crime, and being tougher will make us safer. My dude, Japan isn't particularly tough on crime. It's certainly softer on crime than the US in most ways. In other ways it's tougher on crime that Americans (and especially conservatives) wouldn't accept. For example, they've taken a hard stance on financial crimes, to combat the yakuza. If you're associated with the yakuza they'll cut you off from the finance system. This includes entire businesses. You don't even have to be convicted. A lot of the murder rate in the US is driven by drugs, and that drug money is flowing to legitimate businesses and political contributions. The reason for the lack of crime in Japan is obviously up for debate, but it's obviously partially social, and also heavily financial. There's less extreme poverty, there's (very cheap) universal healthcare, healthcare for children is free till they're 18, child care is subsidized (and now free for all in Tokyo), transportation is extremely cheap, rent is affordable, food is relative inexpensive, etc. Poverty levels are way more associated with crime levels than toughness on crime.
  - PoppinFreshDo 2y ago
    Ok, let's have tough public prosecutors AND good medical care, anti poverty measures &c.
    - ryan_lane 2y ago
      The US already does have tough public prosecutors. It also has overly tough mandatory sentencing, poor public defender availability, extremely high plea agreement rates, and folks with a criminal history can't get jobs (and in many cases reasonable housing). We need criminal justice reform, with a focus on reducing recidivism. Our current system basically forces felons back into crime, as they have no alternative to make a living. This idea that the US isn't tough on crime is mind boggling. The US is tougher than many authoritarian regimes. We have the 5th highest per-capita prisoner population, and the highest total prisoner population in the world. At some point we have to realize that putting more people into prison doesn't solve our problems. Don't take this the wrong way. I'm not advocating for lighter prison sentences for violent crime, but a small minority of the prison population is violent offenders, and really, a small minority of overall crime is violent and as a whole the rate for violent crime has been on decline since the 70s, with the current rates at a historical low. Being tough on crime is mostly a political tool, where police departments and prosecutors juke stats and over-prosecute crimes. Again, the vast majority occur through plea agreements, so people don't really get to defend themselves, and they settle because they otherwise face stiffer sentences and can't afford legal representation. This game is for people like you, who vote enthusiastically for people who pretend to solve problems.
wiskinator 2y ago
Article is paywalled but I think inverting the question is fun. Why don’t small kids in other western countries ride the subway alone?
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  Surely one of the big reasons is a much higher risk of crime/abuse/kidnapping in western countries? There was recently a story in the US about how a parent was arrested for letting their 11-year-old son walk down the street to a store by themselves. https://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-moms-arrest-puts-free-range-parenting-back/story?id=116004039 https://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-moms-arrest-puts-free-rang...
  - reaperducer 2y ago
    Much higher fear. Not necessarily much higher risk.
    - HKH2 2y ago
      Do you think you live in a high-trust society?
- bruce511 2y ago
  I live in a city without a subway. But as a child (approximately 8 I think) I would ride the bus into the city from the suburbs for swim training. We lived on a mountain, the first time I walked to the top I was 6. My fellow hikers were 6 and 7. To describe it as a different time is massive understatement. My own kids were teenagers before they walked to the corner store without an adult. There is a perception that suburb living is more dangerous now. But I think perhaps the real issue us that as parents we were much more involved with the kids, which in turn made them less self-reliant. I would not gave dreamed of letting my young kids loose on the bus system, and I suspect they didn't have the upbringing to handle it. My parents trusted us enough to "figure out our way home". And we did. (Notably well before phones obviously.) I'm not sure I was confident enough that my own kids would do likewise .
lmm 2y ago
Small children in any city with a subway used to ride it alone; it was entirely normal in New York or London. The question to be answered isn't why they do it in Japan, it's why they stopped elsewhere. (The article points to a mother being arrested for allowing her 10-year-old to play, which kind of thing is likely the immediate cause, but begs the question[1] of why and how we got to that state) [1] in the usual sense of the phrase, not the historical one recorded in some dictionaries
- reaperducer 2y ago
  My parents' idea of Summer daycare in dirty 1970's New York was two subway tokens and a buck for a hotdog and a soda. We'll pick you up in front of FAO Schwartz at 5pm. Don't be late. The worst thing that happened to me was I got my finger bit by a rabbit at the zoo.
  - qwerty456127 2y ago
    After having a similar childhood, I concluded criminals normally avoid targeting small children - I haven't been mugged until becoming a teenager.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      Small children don't normally carry anything of much value.
      - Aeolun 2y ago
        Nintendo Switch? I’m more inclined to believe that most criminals don’t entirely lose their sense of shame.
        eru 2y ago
        The Switch is cheap.
steele 2y ago
Obviously just to puzzle and delight the Occidental rugged individualist.
utopcell 2y ago
https://www.removepaywall.com/search?url=https://www.economist.com/christmas-specials/2024/12/19/why-do-small-children-in-japan-ride-the-subway-alone https://www.removepaywall.com/search?url=https://www.economi...
- feyman_r 2y ago
  thank you! I ran out of monthly gift articles :)
downvotetruth 2y ago
[flagged]
coldtea 2y ago
Because it's a safer country whose culture doesn't produce as many insane and/or violent people, and doesn't have as many hysterical helicopter parents. In US kids used to also do just that, about half a century ago now. And walk to school in many places until the 80s and 90s.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Kids still walk to school where I live in midwest USA.
- PoppinFreshDo 2y ago
  Japan has no drug problem because it has strong borders. It has a decent medical system to preempt or treat psychiatric symptoms. And it has federal level construction laws to allow housing to be built anywhere. So look up "cheapest housing in tokyo" where you can rent a tiny place for $100/month. Japan has smartly designed and compassionate infrastructure. It's not just "culture"
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    > It has a decent medical system Yes, absolutely! > to preempt or treat psychiatric symptoms. Uh, no. They just medicate people to death or keep them off the streets if they can’t. I suppose this may be better than the US, but that’s a pretty low standard.
    - coldtea 2y ago
      >or keep them off the streets if they can’t. Sounds good. >I suppose this may be better than the US, but that’s a pretty low standard What else they would do? Miraculously cure them?
  - eru 2y ago
    Japan had insane drug problems just after WW2. Not sure anything changed about their border since then?
Aeolun 2y ago
Probably partially to do with how many other children do. The entire spectrum from 5-80 years old all take the train in the morning and throughout the day. There’s attendants at every station, so if they get off at the wrong place they can always find someone to help. The child (most of them anyhow) will have a transport card with them registered to the parents address/phone number, so even if they lose their mind staff will be able to contact the parents.
davidsojevic 2y ago
In a similar vein, there is a Japanese TV show called "Old Enough!" [0] (1991-present) that focuses on kids as young as 3 year olds heading out of home by themselves and performing errands -- it really is quite amazing to watch how independent some of the kids are! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Enough%21 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Enough%21
- jdlshore 2y ago
  It’s worth mentioning that the children in the show are intensively monitored, with helpful “strangers” ensuring safety during risky activities such as crossing the street. The parents are visibly worried about their children. It’s a great show and does illustrate the Japanese mindset, but the children aren’t as independent as it seems.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ctrlp 2y ago
HN likes to blame safetyism or the "perception of crime" as if crime isn't real. The answer is that big cities in the US and Western Europe have changed in the past 20-30 years. There has been a real increase in free-range mentally deranged homeless. And a parallel increase in "cultural diversity" via immigration, leading to a lower trust environment all around. It may be a low probability event for a homeless lunatic to scream at your child or worse, or for your kid to wander into the wrong neighborhood, but parents don't want their kids exposed to that crap. Who would? Meanwhile, affluent parents have fewer children to spare and very thin communities to watch out for kids in general. The CPS laws penalizing more traditional parenting certainly don't help things.
- ryan_lane 2y ago
  > The answer is that big cities in the US and Western Europe have changed in the past 20-30 years. Yeah, to become _safer_. Todays big cities are considerably safer than they were when you or I were allowed to roam free. I grew up in New Orleans and I was shot at more than once. I was mugged as a kid. I had my bike stolen more than once. New Orleans was (and still is, for the most part) full of homeless people, including aggressive gutter punks. You're letting your nostalgia cloud your view of how dangerous America used to be, especially in comparison to now.
  - ctrlp 2y ago
    New Orleans is an interesting point of comparison. It's generally considered to be a pretty dangerous city by US standards. If you were gangbanging in the 90s then, yeah, it's safer today. Kind of a low bar tbh. I grew up in and around NYC and there I was never shot at or mugged or molested or beaten up by gangs. It was also generally safe late at night in the 90s and 2000s.
- red019 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    6 day old account spewing blatant race bating
freetime2 2y ago
I was born and raised in the US, and now living in Japan with my children attending a public elementary school here. I have been very pleased with my kids' preschool and elementary school so far: the teaching staff, the way subjects are taught (except maybe for English), the sense of responsibility and autonomy they are learning, healthy lunches, the musical performances, their physical fitness, etc. My kids also generally seem to be more fond of their school, and take more pride in it than I had growing up. > “Our job is to prepare them to enter society” by teaching them to collaborate, take initiative and treat everyone equally. He calls it hito-zukuri, the art of making people. > The education ministry’s slogan is chi-toku-tai: a blend of chi (academic ability), toku (moral integrity), and tai (physical health). This means lots of sports and arts. It also means that teachers praise effort, rather than achievement. Studies suggest this is an excellent idea: it makes children more resilient, notes Jennifer Lansford of Duke University. I actually think there is something to this. I struggled a lot in school with depression and behavioral problems - and drugs when I got a bit older - and it wasn't until I finally went off to college and gained some autonomy and was really challenged for the first time that I snapped out of it. With my kids I feel like I can already see that internal drive that I didn't develop until I was 18. Not all perfect, of course. But in general I like what I see.
theshrike79 2y ago
There's a great Japanese (reality?) TV show that kinda borders this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Enough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Enough! I think it's on Netflix in most countries. In it kids, usually 3-6 years old, are sent alone on errands like buying groceries or picking up stuff. They're followed by camera crew with hidden cameras who only interfere if the kids are _actually_ in danger (never happened in the episodes I saw). The parents are a bit worried usually, but not scared to death like an American parent would be if they had to send a 5yo to the closest store - which most likely is not accessible without a car anyway...
johnea 2y ago
To... get to the other side?
averageRoyalty 2y ago
https://archive.md/9YRax https://archive.md/9YRax
Eddy_Viscosity2 2y ago
I have a theory about this. Its the 'Del Boca Vista' theory of manufactured discontent. The idea is that when people achieve a lifestyle where all the basic needs are met as well as some luxuries coupled with ample free time, that they run out of legitimate things to complain about. So they start making them up. They create new rules for every conceivable slight (see most homeowners associations) and enforce them with religious fervor. They get angry over the most minor things because everything else is kinda great. But they need to have something to rail against, to be mad about, to fight against. It's human nature. In poorer communities people devote that energy to trying to survive. In wealthy communities it gets redirected at the rules about the wrong color door or calling CPS on kids out by themselves on public transport. The craziness and restrictiveness of their expectations of others is directly proportional to their overall high standard of living. If they are complaining about kids on subways, its because everything else in their lives is already awesome.

47 points by feyman_r 2y ago

Having an unbelievable level of public safety probably has something to do with it. Let's hear it for strong public prosecutors

feyman_r 2y ago
The article, other than the headline, describes a few more details on how kids as young as 6 years old do things different, other the the subway part of it. Public safety doesn't come from fear of repercussions alone, I feel (which probably what 'strong public prosecutors' brings).
- HKH2 2y ago
  Public safety does come from repeat offenders being behind bars.
ryan_lane 2y ago
> Let's hear it for strong public prosecutors Let me guess, you're a conservative who thinks being "tough on crime" is the answer to crime, and being tougher will make us safer. My dude, Japan isn't particularly tough on crime. It's certainly softer on crime than the US in most ways. In other ways it's tougher on crime that Americans (and especially conservatives) wouldn't accept. For example, they've taken a hard stance on financial crimes, to combat the yakuza. If you're associated with the yakuza they'll cut you off from the finance system. This includes entire businesses. You don't even have to be convicted. A lot of the murder rate in the US is driven by drugs, and that drug money is flowing to legitimate businesses and political contributions. The reason for the lack of crime in Japan is obviously up for debate, but it's obviously partially social, and also heavily financial. There's less extreme poverty, there's (very cheap) universal healthcare, healthcare for children is free till they're 18, child care is subsidized (and now free for all in Tokyo), transportation is extremely cheap, rent is affordable, food is relative inexpensive, etc. Poverty levels are way more associated with crime levels than toughness on crime.
- PoppinFreshDo 2y ago
  Ok, let's have tough public prosecutors AND good medical care, anti poverty measures &c.
  - ryan_lane 2y ago
    The US already does have tough public prosecutors. It also has overly tough mandatory sentencing, poor public defender availability, extremely high plea agreement rates, and folks with a criminal history can't get jobs (and in many cases reasonable housing). We need criminal justice reform, with a focus on reducing recidivism. Our current system basically forces felons back into crime, as they have no alternative to make a living. This idea that the US isn't tough on crime is mind boggling. The US is tougher than many authoritarian regimes. We have the 5th highest per-capita prisoner population, and the highest total prisoner population in the world. At some point we have to realize that putting more people into prison doesn't solve our problems. Don't take this the wrong way. I'm not advocating for lighter prison sentences for violent crime, but a small minority of the prison population is violent offenders, and really, a small minority of overall crime is violent and as a whole the rate for violent crime has been on decline since the 70s, with the current rates at a historical low. Being tough on crime is mostly a political tool, where police departments and prosecutors juke stats and over-prosecute crimes. Again, the vast majority occur through plea agreements, so people don't really get to defend themselves, and they settle because they otherwise face stiffer sentences and can't afford legal representation. This game is for people like you, who vote enthusiastically for people who pretend to solve problems.

wiskinator 2y ago

Article is paywalled but I think inverting the question is fun. Why don’t small kids in other western countries ride the subway alone?

ranger_danger 2y ago
Surely one of the big reasons is a much higher risk of crime/abuse/kidnapping in western countries? There was recently a story in the US about how a parent was arrested for letting their 11-year-old son walk down the street to a store by themselves. https://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-moms-arrest-puts-free-range-parenting-back/story?id=116004039 https://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-moms-arrest-puts-free-rang...
- reaperducer 2y ago
  Much higher fear. Not necessarily much higher risk.
  - HKH2 2y ago
    Do you think you live in a high-trust society?
bruce511 2y ago
I live in a city without a subway. But as a child (approximately 8 I think) I would ride the bus into the city from the suburbs for swim training. We lived on a mountain, the first time I walked to the top I was 6. My fellow hikers were 6 and 7. To describe it as a different time is massive understatement. My own kids were teenagers before they walked to the corner store without an adult. There is a perception that suburb living is more dangerous now. But I think perhaps the real issue us that as parents we were much more involved with the kids, which in turn made them less self-reliant. I would not gave dreamed of letting my young kids loose on the bus system, and I suspect they didn't have the upbringing to handle it. My parents trusted us enough to "figure out our way home". And we did. (Notably well before phones obviously.) I'm not sure I was confident enough that my own kids would do likewise .

lmm 2y ago

Small children in any city with a subway used to ride it alone; it was entirely normal in New York or London. The question to be answered isn't why they do it in Japan, it's why they stopped elsewhere. (The article points to a mother being arrested for allowing her 10-year-old to play, which kind of thing is likely the immediate cause, but begs the question[1] of why and how we got to that state) [1] in the usual sense of the phrase, not the historical one recorded in some dictionaries

reaperducer 2y ago
My parents' idea of Summer daycare in dirty 1970's New York was two subway tokens and a buck for a hotdog and a soda. We'll pick you up in front of FAO Schwartz at 5pm. Don't be late. The worst thing that happened to me was I got my finger bit by a rabbit at the zoo.
- qwerty456127 2y ago
  After having a similar childhood, I concluded criminals normally avoid targeting small children - I haven't been mugged until becoming a teenager.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    Small children don't normally carry anything of much value.
    - Aeolun 2y ago
      Nintendo Switch? I’m more inclined to believe that most criminals don’t entirely lose their sense of shame.
      - eru 2y ago
        The Switch is cheap.

steele 2y ago

Obviously just to puzzle and delight the Occidental rugged individualist.

utopcell 2y ago

https://www.removepaywall.com/search?url=https://www.economist.com/christmas-specials/2024/12/19/why-do-small-children-in-japan-ride-the-subway-alone https://www.removepaywall.com/search?url=https://www.economi...

feyman_r 2y ago
thank you! I ran out of monthly gift articles :)

downvotetruth 2y ago

[flagged]

coldtea 2y ago

Because it's a safer country whose culture doesn't produce as many insane and/or violent people, and doesn't have as many hysterical helicopter parents. In US kids used to also do just that, about half a century ago now. And walk to school in many places until the 80s and 90s.

SoftTalker 2y ago
Kids still walk to school where I live in midwest USA.
PoppinFreshDo 2y ago
Japan has no drug problem because it has strong borders. It has a decent medical system to preempt or treat psychiatric symptoms. And it has federal level construction laws to allow housing to be built anywhere. So look up "cheapest housing in tokyo" where you can rent a tiny place for $100/month. Japan has smartly designed and compassionate infrastructure. It's not just "culture"
- Aeolun 2y ago
  > It has a decent medical system Yes, absolutely! > to preempt or treat psychiatric symptoms. Uh, no. They just medicate people to death or keep them off the streets if they can’t. I suppose this may be better than the US, but that’s a pretty low standard.
  - coldtea 2y ago
    >or keep them off the streets if they can’t. Sounds good. >I suppose this may be better than the US, but that’s a pretty low standard What else they would do? Miraculously cure them?
- eru 2y ago
  Japan had insane drug problems just after WW2. Not sure anything changed about their border since then?

Aeolun 2y ago

Probably partially to do with how many other children do. The entire spectrum from 5-80 years old all take the train in the morning and throughout the day. There’s attendants at every station, so if they get off at the wrong place they can always find someone to help. The child (most of them anyhow) will have a transport card with them registered to the parents address/phone number, so even if they lose their mind staff will be able to contact the parents.

davidsojevic 2y ago

In a similar vein, there is a Japanese TV show called "Old Enough!" [0] (1991-present) that focuses on kids as young as 3 year olds heading out of home by themselves and performing errands -- it really is quite amazing to watch how independent some of the kids are! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Enough%21 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Enough%21

jdlshore 2y ago
It’s worth mentioning that the children in the show are intensively monitored, with helpful “strangers” ensuring safety during risky activities such as crossing the street. The parents are visibly worried about their children. It’s a great show and does illustrate the Japanese mindset, but the children aren’t as independent as it seems.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

ctrlp 2y ago

HN likes to blame safetyism or the "perception of crime" as if crime isn't real. The answer is that big cities in the US and Western Europe have changed in the past 20-30 years. There has been a real increase in free-range mentally deranged homeless. And a parallel increase in "cultural diversity" via immigration, leading to a lower trust environment all around. It may be a low probability event for a homeless lunatic to scream at your child or worse, or for your kid to wander into the wrong neighborhood, but parents don't want their kids exposed to that crap. Who would? Meanwhile, affluent parents have fewer children to spare and very thin communities to watch out for kids in general. The CPS laws penalizing more traditional parenting certainly don't help things.

ryan_lane 2y ago
> The answer is that big cities in the US and Western Europe have changed in the past 20-30 years. Yeah, to become _safer_. Todays big cities are considerably safer than they were when you or I were allowed to roam free. I grew up in New Orleans and I was shot at more than once. I was mugged as a kid. I had my bike stolen more than once. New Orleans was (and still is, for the most part) full of homeless people, including aggressive gutter punks. You're letting your nostalgia cloud your view of how dangerous America used to be, especially in comparison to now.
- ctrlp 2y ago
  New Orleans is an interesting point of comparison. It's generally considered to be a pretty dangerous city by US standards. If you were gangbanging in the 90s then, yeah, it's safer today. Kind of a low bar tbh. I grew up in and around NYC and there I was never shot at or mugged or molested or beaten up by gangs. It was also generally safe late at night in the 90s and 2000s.
red019 2y ago
[flagged]
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  6 day old account spewing blatant race bating

freetime2 2y ago

I was born and raised in the US, and now living in Japan with my children attending a public elementary school here. I have been very pleased with my kids' preschool and elementary school so far: the teaching staff, the way subjects are taught (except maybe for English), the sense of responsibility and autonomy they are learning, healthy lunches, the musical performances, their physical fitness, etc. My kids also generally seem to be more fond of their school, and take more pride in it than I had growing up. > “Our job is to prepare them to enter society” by teaching them to collaborate, take initiative and treat everyone equally. He calls it hito-zukuri, the art of making people. > The education ministry’s slogan is chi-toku-tai: a blend of chi (academic ability), toku (moral integrity), and tai (physical health). This means lots of sports and arts. It also means that teachers praise effort, rather than achievement. Studies suggest this is an excellent idea: it makes children more resilient, notes Jennifer Lansford of Duke University. I actually think there is something to this. I struggled a lot in school with depression and behavioral problems - and drugs when I got a bit older - and it wasn't until I finally went off to college and gained some autonomy and was really challenged for the first time that I snapped out of it. With my kids I feel like I can already see that internal drive that I didn't develop until I was 18. Not all perfect, of course. But in general I like what I see.

theshrike79 2y ago

There's a great Japanese (reality?) TV show that kinda borders this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Enough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Enough! I think it's on Netflix in most countries. In it kids, usually 3-6 years old, are sent alone on errands like buying groceries or picking up stuff. They're followed by camera crew with hidden cameras who only interfere if the kids are _actually_ in danger (never happened in the episodes I saw). The parents are a bit worried usually, but not scared to death like an American parent would be if they had to send a 5yo to the closest store - which most likely is not accessible without a car anyway...

johnea 2y ago

To... get to the other side?

averageRoyalty 2y ago

https://archive.md/9YRax https://archive.md/9YRax

Eddy_Viscosity2 2y ago

I have a theory about this. Its the 'Del Boca Vista' theory of manufactured discontent. The idea is that when people achieve a lifestyle where all the basic needs are met as well as some luxuries coupled with ample free time, that they run out of legitimate things to complain about. So they start making them up. They create new rules for every conceivable slight (see most homeowners associations) and enforce them with religious fervor. They get angry over the most minor things because everything else is kinda great. But they need to have something to rail against, to be mad about, to fight against. It's human nature. In poorer communities people devote that energy to trying to survive. In wealthy communities it gets redirected at the rules about the wrong color door or calling CPS on kids out by themselves on public transport. The craziness and restrictiveness of their expectations of others is directly proportional to their overall high standard of living. If they are complaining about kids on subways, its because everything else in their lives is already awesome.