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I dislike RTO for one simple reason . I'm not at work to make friends, I'm not at work to chit chat. I'm not at work so we can talk about who won the last foot

I dislike RTO for one simple reason . I'm not at work to make friends, I'm not at work to chit chat. I'm not at work so we can talk about who won the last football game . I go to work in exchange for currency, which is required to acquire goods and services. All this other crap, all these holiday parties, all of this let's dance in diversity videos, no that's not what I'm here for . Most of the time coming to the office actually adds a bunch of unnecessary crap that is completely unneeded. If you can't get your job done remotely, what's the stop you from also slacking off in the office. I have to go back to the office for a while last year times were hard and I didn't have another option . We're just talking to each other, shooting the s**, and it was cool to meet some Junior Devs who were just starting their career. But none of that made me a more productive worker. If I had to think, I imagine the entire point of RTO mandates is to keep cities sustainable. If every single office job went remote, what's the point of a city like New York. Who's going to willingly pay $6,000 for an apartment, ride the trains for over an hour a day, if you can just sit at home in a much cheaper city . However, to quote a famous philosopher, it's a big club and you ain't in it. The powers that be one as many people in office chairs as possible, so they're real estate holdings appreciate in value. Billy Bob's bagels also benefits from this, although I'd imagine he's not able to have the same amount of pool as the real estate titans

nickff 2y ago
Maybe JPMorgan doesn't want employees like you; maybe they want employees who chit-chat, and become attached to their company, for various (non-kLoC) reasons. Not every workplace is for everyone.
- 999900000999 2y ago
  Hell yeah, we can be a family up until the moment their automated performance tracking software flags me and I get let go!
- dowager_dan99 2y ago
  Have you noticed that those who come out hardest against RTO - or any change/revision that doesn't fit their desires - use the same, unbending absolute arguments they claim to be fighting? Like anyone who (gasp!) might want to work in the office is a slacker, there to shoot the shit and at the whim of useless managers and executives who just count asses in seats?
  - tombert 2y ago
    I don't think that's what they're saying, they're saying that they don't want to be forced to come back to the office because they don't like it because some percentage of the people there are there just to shoot the shit. That doesn't imply that everyone who comes to the office is there to slack off.
  - intended 2y ago
    If you select the people who come out hardest against RTO, as opposed to the median, or mean, then … you would expect this behavior, no? You sure you picked the right example category to service your point?
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > the same, unbending absolute arguments they claim to be fighting Both sides are absolutely doing this. It's like the concept of multiple equilibria has temporarily left the zeitgeist.
- reidbk 2y ago
  Totally true. A company and its leadership are free to set the rules and expectations. It’s their company, not yours. You (we) might not fit in a new iteration of “their” company Also, in exchange for the strong compensation and benefits that I believe lots of us in finance, tech, etc enjoy - we might have to give acquiesce back on some things.
JohnMakin 2y ago
> I go to work in exchange for currency, which is required to acquire goods and services Social currency is also a thing, which is much more difficult to gain in a remote setting - if not impossible. I don't go to work to socialize either, but I'm not naive enough to think that without an extremely established career and reputation at an org that I'll be promoted or employed strictly on merit. there is always some degree of social-ness involved in those kinds of decisions. I'm not saying that's how things should be, it's just how they are.
- benreesman 2y ago
  There will always be some social-ness, but let’s be real that it’s out of fucking control right now. I’ve been doing this professionally for more than 20 years and “who you know not what you know” hasn’t run this badly amok in that entire time. The industry is very unsettled right now: credible (or at least loud) opinions on AI range from “fancy autocomplete nothingburger” to “programmers are obsolete starting now”, RTO is in some weird ass place where it’s really unclear the merits or lack thereof, consolidation of half the S&P into ~7 companies and the whole startup pipeline running through guys who fit in a banquet room is uh, not highly not a working free market. This is how you get a chorus of “talent shortage” on one side and a chorus of “CS is cooked fam” on the other: software engineering jobs are experiencing a market failure, price discovery isn’t happening, and shit is going to be weird until the market starts working again.
  - intended 2y ago
    RTO is studied and found to be equal to, or less efficient and profitable than, hybrid. My guess is that RTO mandates act as a lay off.
    - iugtmkbdfil834 2y ago
      But even if that is true, why would the companies feel comfortable losing their most competent workforce ( because those are the ones, who can pick up their toys and leave in US )? I was in corporate way too long and I know a lot can be done with warm bodies, but some of the stuff on the horizon will require people with at least some institutional knowledge that this lay off would generate. Unless, and I do mean unless, because I did not work at JPM, JPM is so well run, that it truly does not matter.
onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
> If I had to think, I imagine the entire point of RTO mandates is to keep cities sustainable. The entire point is to get you to quit because firing people is hard, and they don't care if their best talent leaves.
awkward 2y ago
Development work at all of these major financial companies is likely distributed across three continents and 6 time zones, nevermind the network of offices in multiple major cities. Even "Hub" models likely have cleave points like design in NY, frontend development in LA, testing in Mumbai. The end effect is employees schlepping to the office to sit down and hop on a zoom call.
kccqzy 2y ago
> If you can't get your job done remotely, what's the stop you from also slacking off in the office. I find slacking off in the office so much easier than slacking off at home, mainly because people (like CEOs of companies with RTO mandates) automatically assume people in the office == people being productive. You could leave your seat and go to a meeting room, and people won't know if you are having a genuine meeting or if you are just talking to yourself. Or you could bring your laptop to a meeting room and people won't know if you focusing or if you are slacking off. You could even stay in your seat, and people won't easily notice that the GitHub page you have open on your monitor is actually for your side project. You could open a long and useless company email on your monitor and daydream for a few minutes. In contrast, when people know you are at home, they default to thinking you are slacking off. You need to actively work to prove you are working. > If every single office job went remote, what's the point of a city like New York. The point is to enjoy the city (whether museums or bars) after work hours.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  > I find slacking off in the office so much easier than slacking off at home 1999 had it nailed https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=veoXCgwyZq8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=veoXCgwyZq8
lenerdenator 2y ago
> If I had to think, I imagine the entire point of RTO mandates is to keep cities sustainable. In a few cases (certainly not all), it's to keep the c-suite's reputation sustainable. If you're a CEO that signed a lease or construction contract on any piece of property since, idk, 2015, you have, in some way, burned a lot of money on a piece of ground that could have, in many cases, been replaced with a far cheaper internet connection and suite of remote work applications. You have two options at this point: 1) explain this bonfire of cash to the board and possibly to shareholders, which is a pretty good way to see yourself shown the door or 2) justify your expense by telling the rank-and-file to get back in the office and make use of the capital you are now locked into having.
- hn72774 2y ago
  I'd love to see data on RTO mandates vs real estate lease/own status. For companies that own, Low occupancy = asset write downs = higher cost of capital.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    Control for overhiring during the pandemic. Almost every RTO whiplash I've seen is a shadow restructuring.
    - PoppinFreshDo 2y ago
      I think you're right, but it's a non optimal way to reduce headcount. What are managers doing if they're only measure for who stays is "who is willing to drive or train to work?" That's not management imho.
      - iugtmkbdfil834 2y ago
        << That's not management imho. It isn't. I made this point on this forum before, but I personally think management class has been largely skating by for multiple decades now with covid ( and maybe very briefly OWS ) being the only few things remotely changing the balance of power in a way that forced them to re-asses the situation. The amusing complaint that I heard was that remote management is harder ( it is likely true ) when compared to in-person. << "who is willing to drive or train to work?" This is the part that is interesting to me for several different reasons. I don't consider myself a top player ( and I objectively am not ), but I know people who are. Those people tend to be capable enough to go on their own if needed, but are sufficiently comfortable that they won't unless pushed too far. In simple terms, either companies find ways to make exceptions undermining the whole spirit of this exercise ( because that is all it is -- show of power ) losing the few people that make things happen or stick to their guns to ease managerial discomfort and keep commercial property values in place. I don't have to make those decisions, but having seen some recent projects lately, I don't think management can afford to lose those key individuals, because I can say with all certainty that throwing a bunch of contractors on it will not work; I will even go a little further, throwing contractors on it will only make things worse. edit: Removed last line. It sounded better in my head.
nielsbot 2y ago
It pains me to say this, but I find in-person discussions more productive than online ones. It's not just shooting the shit--for me, spontaneous social chats often lead to work-related brainstorming. Being in the office next to co-workers leads to more spontaneous discussions.
- patmorgan23 2y ago
  Yep. Also in person mentoring and spontaneous collaboration. In person and remote both have advantages and will work better or worse for different people, organizations, or situations.
  - com2kid 2y ago
    The number of times, early in my career, I had senior engineers come and hold impromptu learning sessions is one of the reasons why I'm such a good engineer today. Being able to have robust discussions about software engineering, best practices and design patterns and all that good stuff and have other engineers hear that discussions happening and stop by to give their input is incredibly valuable to both personal growth and oftentimes the success of a product.
  - ajdude 2y ago
    Spontaneous collaboration is a big one for me. I am in a niche department and by simply having an office in an accessible hallway with my door open, people suddenly remember that my department exists and they are constantly popping in my door to chat about ideas. Usually those chats result in new projects
- jppope 2y ago
  I find the opposite. People frequently show up to meetings in person unprepared. They are also way less likely to document the discussion - which can now be done with AI transcribing the discussion... which is even more productive. There is way more shooting the shit in person.
  - badgersnake 2y ago
oldpersonintx 2y ago
> I'm not at work to make friends, Most of my great friends I met at work
- redserk 2y ago
  And my friends are from a sports group that meets up every Sunday, who aren’t any bit related to work. Some people prefer meeting others outside of work and there’s nothing wrong with it. My coworkers are wonderful folks but, frankly, won’t become beer-buddies.
craftkiller 2y ago
> what's the point of a city like New York Pizza and Bagels. If the rest of the country got their shit together and figured out how to make acceptable pizza and bagels then I could leave this city.
- neilv 2y ago
  Cambridge, MA, has Bagelsaurus, but unfortunately almost as expensive cost of living. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xup2Lcd4Ers&t=1m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xup2Lcd4Ers&t=1m40s
dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
> I'm not at work so we can talk about who won the last football game You average Joe/manager in the office judges you based on this. ( I too don't like it)
devmunchies 2y ago
> I imagine the entire point of RTO mandates is to keep cities sustainable. The main important factor IMO is mentorship of junior talent. (I'm speaking for technical orgs) Viewing the organization as a living organism where an employee is a "cell", then there are material benefits in the "cellular replication" of talent and rejuvenation of the next generation. It can definitely be true that RTO is worse for an individual engineer but better for the health of the organization long-term. Both can be true. In my experience, remote only companies tend to prefer a higher ratio of senior employees for this reason. It's plug-an-play.
- badgersnake 2y ago
  Completely, agree. I think am lot of senior engineers work well independently and feel more productive at home. They miss that this isn’t always the case for more junior ones.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
I think we’re all getting the reasons for RTO wrong. It’s not just executives liking a certain work environment or a way to hold employees accountable. It’s a core part of their business. If real estate in overpriced cities is worth a lot less, JPMC’s own property, its assets, and so on are all worth less. What happens to JPMC if people with loans decide to stop making payments and just default because their property is worth a lot less than the loan? To prevent this, they’re trying to strengthen the RTO trend.
parineum 2y ago
> We're just talking to each other, shooting the s*, and it was cool to meet some Junior Devs who were just starting their career. But none of that made me a more productive worker. You're not the only employee of the company. They aren't trying to maximize _your_ output, they're trying to maximize the company's output. You being present for a junior dev to ask quick questions to (the type that don't get asked if they have to message you) will increase their productivity much more than your productivity loss. It isn't all about you. > If I had to think, I imagine the entire point of RTO mandates is to keep cities sustainable. This is, essentially, a conspiracy theory. RTO is happening because management thinks it will increase productivity. Right or wrong, it's crazy to assume the are all working together to keep cities alive.
- iugtmkbdfil834 2y ago
  <<This is, essentially, a conspiracy theory. RTO is happening because management thinks it will increase productivity. Right or wrong, it's crazy to assume the are all working together to keep cities alive. Eh, I will be honest. At this point, one has to be willfully unwilling to read the news[1] to state something like this. There absolutely are interests intent on keeping cities alive. I almost wonder if we finally reached a point where 'conspiracy theory' is automatically not only not 'a way to diminish a view', but 'a way to enhance it'. [1]https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/02/17/new-york-city-mayor-eric-adams-calls-for-companies-to-quickly-bring-workers-back-to-the-office/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/02/17/new-york-c...
  - freejazz 2y ago
    > I almost wonder if we finally reached a point where 'conspiracy theory' is automatically not only not 'a way to diminish a view', but 'a way to enhance it'. Uhm, yeah, Trump is president. Do you live in a city?
    - iugtmkbdfil834 2y ago
      Work in a city; live in the suburbs.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
There is no universal answer to RTO vs WFH. What is abhorrent is employers changing these terms as if they're trivial. We probably need legal protections treating swapping workplace requirements as requiring someone to relocate or accept lower pay. > If every single office job went remote, what's the point of a city like New York You really don't see the value of New York beyond its office buildings? > it's a big club and you ain't in it. The powers that be one as many people in office chairs as possible, so they're real estate holdings appreciate in value This is a Bay Area conspiracy theory that doesn't make a lot of sense, particularly when the cost and need for layoffs explains the effect more parsimoniously.
- anthonygd 2y ago
  I agree with most of what you wrote, but not the implication that NYC value is obvious. >You really don't see the value of New York beyond its office buildings? I like to visit NYC a couple times a year, but absolutely don't want to live there. If the number of people who physically work there goes down, so will the reasons it's nice to visit. I don't think I can properly explain my thought process here, but I do think of big cities as anachronistic and little inhuman. All those nice things in a city depend on a large number of lower income people being forced to live there by economic opportunity. That's not necessarily bad but frequently lower income residents don't get to enjoy the services they provide. I say anachronistic because as people increase in economic freedom, their desires adjust and they frequently move, e.g. everything else being equal people will choose a 700 sq.ft. apartment over a 180 sq.ft. apartment. If the ratio of high income to low income residents shifts too far in either direction, cities go through a painful re-balancing process that may or may not land on it being good or pleasant (by some subjective standards) place afterwards.
jltsiren 2y ago
> If I had to think, I imagine the entire point of RTO mandates is to keep cities sustainable. More like to keep cities unsustainable. If a few major real estate companies went bankrupt, forcing the rest to lower the rents, a lot of wealth would be destroyed. At the same time, cities like New York would become even more desirable due to being more affordable. NYC is still the #1 city in the world. There are plenty of things you can't find anywhere else. Cities like that – cities that offer something unique – would benefit from being more affordable. Mid-tier cities that exist primarily for economic reasons would probably suffer from a real estate crash.
- 999900000999 2y ago
  Agreed, NYC is awesome. Let me take the $4,000 a month I save by not living there, I'll spend 90$ on a flight, see a concert and eat some pizza. Then I can fly back home the next day and enjoy my mid tier city with my giant apartment. My mid-tier City where we have this newfangled invention called trash cans behind the apartment, unlike New York where there's no space so trash is just overflowing everywhere. I actually tried New York for relatively short time, it's an amazing city to visit. But living there sucks. I don't want to go back, but of the way things are going, I'm probably going to end up back there or having to go to Seattle or something which I don't really want to do.
linotype 2y ago
> If every single office job went remote, what's the point of a city like New York Yikes, if the only reason you’re in NYC is a job and you don’t go out I highly recommend you find a new job/city.
com2kid 2y ago
> We're just talking to each other, shooting the s*, and it was cool to meet some Junior Devs who were just starting their career. But none of that made me a more productive worker. I solved an incredibly difficult technical problem while grabbing lunch during PAX with fellow co-workers. Spending time face-to-face with team members as a lead help me keep track of who needed some extra time off, who was at risk of burn out, and who was being harassed out of band by PMs. One of the most powerful things my team did was have cookies out in front of her desks everyday. Other devs would stop by the chit chat and it let us keep a pulse on how the entire war was doing. My team was able to get a lot more done and hope everyone succeed because we had not just technical connections but personal connections throughout the building. Those personal connections also let me transfer top performers onto my team, people who would otherwise have left the org due to dissatisfaction with their current team. Knowing individual developers one-on-one also helps me know what problems they're going to have with their code and blind spots in their technical knowledge. Finally, there's a fact that trust is earned through time spent together. As a junior member of a team, I was able to propose some radical alternative solutions to problems because of how much time I'd spent talking to the tech leads above me. That said, the working conditions in most offices are so bad, I see what people want to stay home myself included. Even Microsoft, who years ago commissioned studies showing the massive productivity gains from individual offices, has gone against their own best practices and resorted to loud open office nightmare environments. I think part of this is because corporations no longer expect individual engineers to come up with radical solutions to hard problems and are okay with mediocre solutions to everyday problems instead. In my opinion, this results in massive numbers of employees being hired to create complex solutions. When one quarter of the employees could have got the job done if they were treated well. Another aspect of everything going wrong is that American cities are so poorly designed with constrained housing that commute times have gotten way out of hand. Even in the early to mid 2000s when I started my career it was possible for people to live 15 minutes from work or buy a house 20 minutes away. I used to have a round-trip commute time of under 10 minutes so of course I didn't mind coming into the office.
hammock 2y ago
>I dislike RTO for one simple reason . I'm not at work to make friends, I'm not at work to chit chat. I'm not at work so we can talk about who won the last football game . I go to work in exchange for currency, which is required to acquire goods and services. All this other crap, all these holiday parties, all of this let's dance in diversity videos, no that's not what I'm here for . Oldhead here. This was a common thought pattern before lockdowns, but only among the ~5% of people who personally negotiated for a work-from-home/telecommuting arrangement. And it was not normal. It was vaguely looked down upon by superiors, unless you had been with the company for a long time and had proven your value. And among peers it was a little "weird." "Return to office" post-lockdown is not the same thing as "Work from home" pre-lockdown. The RTO thought pattern is similar, but the social feeling around it has flipped - is normal and not weird. (Yet still vaguely looked down on by some management)
SirMaster 2y ago
Then maybe you aren't a culture fit for that employer / office? My experience is just so different. I love the vibe and the camaraderie of my office. It makes it fun to work there. Just sitting at home working, never interacting with people in person sounds really dull and boring and cold to me. I had to do that in 2020 and I hated it. Productivity is nice, but IMO it's not all about productivity. As a worker I value my enjoyment of the job, and just being a robotic super productive worker is not as enjoyable as actually feeling like you are part of a team or community and having fun with your fellow coworkers. We spend so much of our lives on the clock, I would hate to have it all just be serious productive work 100% of the time.
- spokaneplumb 2y ago
  > My experience is just so different. I love the vibe and the camaraderie of my office. It makes it fun to work there. Me too! If we had free teleporters I'd probably go into the office for at least half my work day, just about every day, voluntarily. ... I don't like it enough to pay about 15 days per year, every year (5 hours commuting per week, times 50 weeks, divided by 16 waking hours per day[1]), hundreds of dollars a month commuting (gas, plus insurance and depreciation on a car), and make every single thing that happens at home and requires my attention less convenient and more disruptive in ways that probably also amount to at least several hundred dollars per year, one way or another, and quite a few extra micromorts/micro-chances-of-crippling-injury per year (risk of that ~250 hours of extra driving). Plus increased restrictions on where you can live, which can come with significant (tens of thousands per year) costs in many ways, including in raw dollar terms. It's nice, but the cost is really high. I'd also probably really have fun with a supercar, but I'd rather not buy one just the same. Far too pricey for the benefit, to me. [1] Perhaps more to the point, that means over six entire work-weeks of extra work time per year, uncompensated, just to get to and from work. A month and a half of extra work every year. And that's with an hour a day spent, lots of people have more than 30 minutes lost per day (nb you'd need to include extra gassing-up stops, and extra car maintenance visits, divided by commute days per year, to properly account for this—so your commute time would need to average somewhat under 30 minutes each way to hit only an hour lost each day, probably closer to 25 minutes than 30).
dygd 2y ago
For those who don't know the famous philosopher - it's George Carlin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nyvxt1svxso https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nyvxt1svxso
freejazz 2y ago
You really misunderstand why the jobs are in NYC, if you think that people only come to NYC for the jobs. On the same point, gosh you sound like a fun person! I know, I'm sure it's not part of your job to be personable. Though, I do wonder how an approach like that will work for most people.
screye 2y ago
I dislike RTO because none of that happens anymore. The economic landscape is too paranoid (despite positive macro indicators) for employees to enjoy work. People don't want to chit chat, just clock in clock out. Layoffs threat is ever present. Remote & odd-time zone meetings are still here. Can't turn off my computer after 5pm. In office benefits are limited. Mentoring, learning-seminars and after-work activities are soft discouraged. Why even come in ? _____________ > what's the point of a city like New York I agree that RTO mandates have to do with keeping downtown office space prices high. But, if you could work from anywhere, why wouldn't you want to be in the coolest city in the world? You don't need to be in Manhattan. But you can get some pretty great apartments while still being a 30 minutes subway ride from downtown. I visited NYC regularly through Covid, and it seemed quite lively. Remember, us programmers are a famously introverted & indoor bunch. Most people want to be in places with rich social lives apart from their smaller intimate communities.
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  A lot of people actually despise living in major cities. I was born in one, a huge metropolis, and lived in it for the most of my life. For a long time I was forced to live there, because the jobs were there too. In may ways, the pandemic was a blessing for me. Remote work allowed me to move to a small city, closer to a rural area. If depends solely on my desire, I will never again live in a major city.
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    I am not sure if “a lot” is correct assessment. I live in urban area and most of my friends have either been fully remote before C19 or after. no one wants to move anywhere even though we could all live wherever. urban areas have numerous other advantages besides better job markets, especially if you have kids. schools, sports, theatre, etc etc.
    - surgical_fire 2y ago
      If we qre exchanging anecdotes, I do know plenty of people that either moved out to the countryside, or would be willing to move if they were sure they could work remote indefinitely. I'd even say that having kids is one major factor in wanting to move out of big cities.
nunez 2y ago
Fun fact: We have a place called Billy Bob's Bagels in Houston, and it's actually fantastic!
nunez 2y ago
> If every single office job went remote, what's the point of a city like New York. Who's going to willingly pay $6,000 for an apartment, ride the trains for over an hour a day, if you can just sit at home in a much cheaper city . Yeah, but that's the heart of the problem here. The suburbs that many flocked to when WFH became acceptable are largely subsidized by city income. Cities are largely funded by employers paying hefty taxes to operate within them. Non-negligible portions of municipal budgets are also funded by small businesses that cannot exist without people working centrally somewhere. Until municipal governments figure out a different operating model, I don't think any major city can survive big companies pulling out en masse unless your desired end state looks like Detroit circa 2000. > I go to work in exchange for currency, which is required to acquire goods and services. All this other crap, all these holiday parties, all of this let's dance in diversity videos, no that's not what I'm here for . What of the people whose jobs aren't WFH compatible? "They get what they get?"
- anthonygd 2y ago
  > What of the people whose jobs aren't WFH compatible? "They get what they get?" What's your proposal here? Should I be forced into the office because it increases the chances I'll buy coffee instead of making it at home? Macro economic changes are always painful. This is a gross simplification, but cities exist because of an economic network effect based on proximity. Network effects tend to be somewhat stable because they tend to change slowly, but they do change.
tharne 2y ago
> If I had to think, I imagine the entire point of RTO mandates is to keep cities sustainable. Bingo
PoppinFreshDo 2y ago
Socializing with coworkers is valuable, and encouraging. Professionalism is learned largely or even exclusively by socialization.

nickff 2y ago

Maybe JPMorgan doesn't want employees like you; maybe they want employees who chit-chat, and become attached to their company, for various (non-kLoC) reasons. Not every workplace is for everyone.

999900000999 2y ago
Hell yeah, we can be a family up until the moment their automated performance tracking software flags me and I get let go!
dowager_dan99 2y ago
Have you noticed that those who come out hardest against RTO - or any change/revision that doesn't fit their desires - use the same, unbending absolute arguments they claim to be fighting? Like anyone who (gasp!) might want to work in the office is a slacker, there to shoot the shit and at the whim of useless managers and executives who just count asses in seats?
- tombert 2y ago
  I don't think that's what they're saying, they're saying that they don't want to be forced to come back to the office because they don't like it because some percentage of the people there are there just to shoot the shit. That doesn't imply that everyone who comes to the office is there to slack off.
- intended 2y ago
  If you select the people who come out hardest against RTO, as opposed to the median, or mean, then … you would expect this behavior, no? You sure you picked the right example category to service your point?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > the same, unbending absolute arguments they claim to be fighting Both sides are absolutely doing this. It's like the concept of multiple equilibria has temporarily left the zeitgeist.
reidbk 2y ago
Totally true. A company and its leadership are free to set the rules and expectations. It’s their company, not yours. You (we) might not fit in a new iteration of “their” company Also, in exchange for the strong compensation and benefits that I believe lots of us in finance, tech, etc enjoy - we might have to give acquiesce back on some things.

JohnMakin 2y ago

> I go to work in exchange for currency, which is required to acquire goods and services Social currency is also a thing, which is much more difficult to gain in a remote setting - if not impossible. I don't go to work to socialize either, but I'm not naive enough to think that without an extremely established career and reputation at an org that I'll be promoted or employed strictly on merit. there is always some degree of social-ness involved in those kinds of decisions. I'm not saying that's how things should be, it's just how they are.

benreesman 2y ago
There will always be some social-ness, but let’s be real that it’s out of fucking control right now. I’ve been doing this professionally for more than 20 years and “who you know not what you know” hasn’t run this badly amok in that entire time. The industry is very unsettled right now: credible (or at least loud) opinions on AI range from “fancy autocomplete nothingburger” to “programmers are obsolete starting now”, RTO is in some weird ass place where it’s really unclear the merits or lack thereof, consolidation of half the S&P into ~7 companies and the whole startup pipeline running through guys who fit in a banquet room is uh, not highly not a working free market. This is how you get a chorus of “talent shortage” on one side and a chorus of “CS is cooked fam” on the other: software engineering jobs are experiencing a market failure, price discovery isn’t happening, and shit is going to be weird until the market starts working again.
- intended 2y ago
  RTO is studied and found to be equal to, or less efficient and profitable than, hybrid. My guess is that RTO mandates act as a lay off.
  - iugtmkbdfil834 2y ago
    But even if that is true, why would the companies feel comfortable losing their most competent workforce ( because those are the ones, who can pick up their toys and leave in US )? I was in corporate way too long and I know a lot can be done with warm bodies, but some of the stuff on the horizon will require people with at least some institutional knowledge that this lay off would generate. Unless, and I do mean unless, because I did not work at JPM, JPM is so well run, that it truly does not matter.

onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago

> If I had to think, I imagine the entire point of RTO mandates is to keep cities sustainable. The entire point is to get you to quit because firing people is hard, and they don't care if their best talent leaves.

awkward 2y ago

Development work at all of these major financial companies is likely distributed across three continents and 6 time zones, nevermind the network of offices in multiple major cities. Even "Hub" models likely have cleave points like design in NY, frontend development in LA, testing in Mumbai. The end effect is employees schlepping to the office to sit down and hop on a zoom call.

kccqzy 2y ago

> If you can't get your job done remotely, what's the stop you from also slacking off in the office. I find slacking off in the office so much easier than slacking off at home, mainly because people (like CEOs of companies with RTO mandates) automatically assume people in the office == people being productive. You could leave your seat and go to a meeting room, and people won't know if you are having a genuine meeting or if you are just talking to yourself. Or you could bring your laptop to a meeting room and people won't know if you focusing or if you are slacking off. You could even stay in your seat, and people won't easily notice that the GitHub page you have open on your monitor is actually for your side project. You could open a long and useless company email on your monitor and daydream for a few minutes. In contrast, when people know you are at home, they default to thinking you are slacking off. You need to actively work to prove you are working. > If every single office job went remote, what's the point of a city like New York. The point is to enjoy the city (whether museums or bars) after work hours.

ethbr1 2y ago
> I find slacking off in the office so much easier than slacking off at home 1999 had it nailed https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=veoXCgwyZq8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=veoXCgwyZq8

lenerdenator 2y ago

> If I had to think, I imagine the entire point of RTO mandates is to keep cities sustainable. In a few cases (certainly not all), it's to keep the c-suite's reputation sustainable. If you're a CEO that signed a lease or construction contract on any piece of property since, idk, 2015, you have, in some way, burned a lot of money on a piece of ground that could have, in many cases, been replaced with a far cheaper internet connection and suite of remote work applications. You have two options at this point: 1) explain this bonfire of cash to the board and possibly to shareholders, which is a pretty good way to see yourself shown the door or 2) justify your expense by telling the rank-and-file to get back in the office and make use of the capital you are now locked into having.

hn72774 2y ago
I'd love to see data on RTO mandates vs real estate lease/own status. For companies that own, Low occupancy = asset write downs = higher cost of capital.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  Control for overhiring during the pandemic. Almost every RTO whiplash I've seen is a shadow restructuring.
  - PoppinFreshDo 2y ago
    I think you're right, but it's a non optimal way to reduce headcount. What are managers doing if they're only measure for who stays is "who is willing to drive or train to work?" That's not management imho.
    - iugtmkbdfil834 2y ago
      << That's not management imho. It isn't. I made this point on this forum before, but I personally think management class has been largely skating by for multiple decades now with covid ( and maybe very briefly OWS ) being the only few things remotely changing the balance of power in a way that forced them to re-asses the situation. The amusing complaint that I heard was that remote management is harder ( it is likely true ) when compared to in-person. << "who is willing to drive or train to work?" This is the part that is interesting to me for several different reasons. I don't consider myself a top player ( and I objectively am not ), but I know people who are. Those people tend to be capable enough to go on their own if needed, but are sufficiently comfortable that they won't unless pushed too far. In simple terms, either companies find ways to make exceptions undermining the whole spirit of this exercise ( because that is all it is -- show of power ) losing the few people that make things happen or stick to their guns to ease managerial discomfort and keep commercial property values in place. I don't have to make those decisions, but having seen some recent projects lately, I don't think management can afford to lose those key individuals, because I can say with all certainty that throwing a bunch of contractors on it will not work; I will even go a little further, throwing contractors on it will only make things worse. edit: Removed last line. It sounded better in my head.

nielsbot 2y ago

It pains me to say this, but I find in-person discussions more productive than online ones. It's not just shooting the shit--for me, spontaneous social chats often lead to work-related brainstorming. Being in the office next to co-workers leads to more spontaneous discussions.

patmorgan23 2y ago
Yep. Also in person mentoring and spontaneous collaboration. In person and remote both have advantages and will work better or worse for different people, organizations, or situations.
- com2kid 2y ago
  The number of times, early in my career, I had senior engineers come and hold impromptu learning sessions is one of the reasons why I'm such a good engineer today. Being able to have robust discussions about software engineering, best practices and design patterns and all that good stuff and have other engineers hear that discussions happening and stop by to give their input is incredibly valuable to both personal growth and oftentimes the success of a product.
- ajdude 2y ago
  Spontaneous collaboration is a big one for me. I am in a niche department and by simply having an office in an accessible hallway with my door open, people suddenly remember that my department exists and they are constantly popping in my door to chat about ideas. Usually those chats result in new projects
jppope 2y ago
I find the opposite. People frequently show up to meetings in person unprepared. They are also way less likely to document the discussion - which can now be done with AI transcribing the discussion... which is even more productive. There is way more shooting the shit in person.
- badgersnake 2y ago

oldpersonintx 2y ago

> I'm not at work to make friends, Most of my great friends I met at work

redserk 2y ago
And my friends are from a sports group that meets up every Sunday, who aren’t any bit related to work. Some people prefer meeting others outside of work and there’s nothing wrong with it. My coworkers are wonderful folks but, frankly, won’t become beer-buddies.

craftkiller 2y ago

> what's the point of a city like New York Pizza and Bagels. If the rest of the country got their shit together and figured out how to make acceptable pizza and bagels then I could leave this city.

neilv 2y ago
Cambridge, MA, has Bagelsaurus, but unfortunately almost as expensive cost of living. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xup2Lcd4Ers&t=1m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xup2Lcd4Ers&t=1m40s

dennis_jeeves2 2y ago

> I'm not at work so we can talk about who won the last football game You average Joe/manager in the office judges you based on this. ( I too don't like it)

devmunchies 2y ago

> I imagine the entire point of RTO mandates is to keep cities sustainable. The main important factor IMO is mentorship of junior talent. (I'm speaking for technical orgs) Viewing the organization as a living organism where an employee is a "cell", then there are material benefits in the "cellular replication" of talent and rejuvenation of the next generation. It can definitely be true that RTO is worse for an individual engineer but better for the health of the organization long-term. Both can be true. In my experience, remote only companies tend to prefer a higher ratio of senior employees for this reason. It's plug-an-play.

badgersnake 2y ago
Completely, agree. I think am lot of senior engineers work well independently and feel more productive at home. They miss that this isn’t always the case for more junior ones.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

I think we’re all getting the reasons for RTO wrong. It’s not just executives liking a certain work environment or a way to hold employees accountable. It’s a core part of their business. If real estate in overpriced cities is worth a lot less, JPMC’s own property, its assets, and so on are all worth less. What happens to JPMC if people with loans decide to stop making payments and just default because their property is worth a lot less than the loan? To prevent this, they’re trying to strengthen the RTO trend.

parineum 2y ago

> We're just talking to each other, shooting the s*, and it was cool to meet some Junior Devs who were just starting their career. But none of that made me a more productive worker. You're not the only employee of the company. They aren't trying to maximize _your_ output, they're trying to maximize the company's output. You being present for a junior dev to ask quick questions to (the type that don't get asked if they have to message you) will increase their productivity much more than your productivity loss. It isn't all about you. > If I had to think, I imagine the entire point of RTO mandates is to keep cities sustainable. This is, essentially, a conspiracy theory. RTO is happening because management thinks it will increase productivity. Right or wrong, it's crazy to assume the are all working together to keep cities alive.

iugtmkbdfil834 2y ago
<<This is, essentially, a conspiracy theory. RTO is happening because management thinks it will increase productivity. Right or wrong, it's crazy to assume the are all working together to keep cities alive. Eh, I will be honest. At this point, one has to be willfully unwilling to read the news[1] to state something like this. There absolutely are interests intent on keeping cities alive. I almost wonder if we finally reached a point where 'conspiracy theory' is automatically not only not 'a way to diminish a view', but 'a way to enhance it'. [1]https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/02/17/new-york-city-mayor-eric-adams-calls-for-companies-to-quickly-bring-workers-back-to-the-office/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/02/17/new-york-c...
- freejazz 2y ago
  > I almost wonder if we finally reached a point where 'conspiracy theory' is automatically not only not 'a way to diminish a view', but 'a way to enhance it'. Uhm, yeah, Trump is president. Do you live in a city?
  - iugtmkbdfil834 2y ago
    Work in a city; live in the suburbs.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

There is no universal answer to RTO vs WFH. What is abhorrent is employers changing these terms as if they're trivial. We probably need legal protections treating swapping workplace requirements as requiring someone to relocate or accept lower pay. > If every single office job went remote, what's the point of a city like New York You really don't see the value of New York beyond its office buildings? > it's a big club and you ain't in it. The powers that be one as many people in office chairs as possible, so they're real estate holdings appreciate in value This is a Bay Area conspiracy theory that doesn't make a lot of sense, particularly when the cost and need for layoffs explains the effect more parsimoniously.

anthonygd 2y ago
I agree with most of what you wrote, but not the implication that NYC value is obvious. >You really don't see the value of New York beyond its office buildings? I like to visit NYC a couple times a year, but absolutely don't want to live there. If the number of people who physically work there goes down, so will the reasons it's nice to visit. I don't think I can properly explain my thought process here, but I do think of big cities as anachronistic and little inhuman. All those nice things in a city depend on a large number of lower income people being forced to live there by economic opportunity. That's not necessarily bad but frequently lower income residents don't get to enjoy the services they provide. I say anachronistic because as people increase in economic freedom, their desires adjust and they frequently move, e.g. everything else being equal people will choose a 700 sq.ft. apartment over a 180 sq.ft. apartment. If the ratio of high income to low income residents shifts too far in either direction, cities go through a painful re-balancing process that may or may not land on it being good or pleasant (by some subjective standards) place afterwards.

jltsiren 2y ago

> If I had to think, I imagine the entire point of RTO mandates is to keep cities sustainable. More like to keep cities unsustainable. If a few major real estate companies went bankrupt, forcing the rest to lower the rents, a lot of wealth would be destroyed. At the same time, cities like New York would become even more desirable due to being more affordable. NYC is still the #1 city in the world. There are plenty of things you can't find anywhere else. Cities like that – cities that offer something unique – would benefit from being more affordable. Mid-tier cities that exist primarily for economic reasons would probably suffer from a real estate crash.

999900000999 2y ago
Agreed, NYC is awesome. Let me take the $4,000 a month I save by not living there, I'll spend 90$ on a flight, see a concert and eat some pizza. Then I can fly back home the next day and enjoy my mid tier city with my giant apartment. My mid-tier City where we have this newfangled invention called trash cans behind the apartment, unlike New York where there's no space so trash is just overflowing everywhere. I actually tried New York for relatively short time, it's an amazing city to visit. But living there sucks. I don't want to go back, but of the way things are going, I'm probably going to end up back there or having to go to Seattle or something which I don't really want to do.

linotype 2y ago

> If every single office job went remote, what's the point of a city like New York Yikes, if the only reason you’re in NYC is a job and you don’t go out I highly recommend you find a new job/city.

com2kid 2y ago

> We're just talking to each other, shooting the s*, and it was cool to meet some Junior Devs who were just starting their career. But none of that made me a more productive worker. I solved an incredibly difficult technical problem while grabbing lunch during PAX with fellow co-workers. Spending time face-to-face with team members as a lead help me keep track of who needed some extra time off, who was at risk of burn out, and who was being harassed out of band by PMs. One of the most powerful things my team did was have cookies out in front of her desks everyday. Other devs would stop by the chit chat and it let us keep a pulse on how the entire war was doing. My team was able to get a lot more done and hope everyone succeed because we had not just technical connections but personal connections throughout the building. Those personal connections also let me transfer top performers onto my team, people who would otherwise have left the org due to dissatisfaction with their current team. Knowing individual developers one-on-one also helps me know what problems they're going to have with their code and blind spots in their technical knowledge. Finally, there's a fact that trust is earned through time spent together. As a junior member of a team, I was able to propose some radical alternative solutions to problems because of how much time I'd spent talking to the tech leads above me. That said, the working conditions in most offices are so bad, I see what people want to stay home myself included. Even Microsoft, who years ago commissioned studies showing the massive productivity gains from individual offices, has gone against their own best practices and resorted to loud open office nightmare environments. I think part of this is because corporations no longer expect individual engineers to come up with radical solutions to hard problems and are okay with mediocre solutions to everyday problems instead. In my opinion, this results in massive numbers of employees being hired to create complex solutions. When one quarter of the employees could have got the job done if they were treated well. Another aspect of everything going wrong is that American cities are so poorly designed with constrained housing that commute times have gotten way out of hand. Even in the early to mid 2000s when I started my career it was possible for people to live 15 minutes from work or buy a house 20 minutes away. I used to have a round-trip commute time of under 10 minutes so of course I didn't mind coming into the office.

hammock 2y ago

>I dislike RTO for one simple reason . I'm not at work to make friends, I'm not at work to chit chat. I'm not at work so we can talk about who won the last football game . I go to work in exchange for currency, which is required to acquire goods and services. All this other crap, all these holiday parties, all of this let's dance in diversity videos, no that's not what I'm here for . Oldhead here. This was a common thought pattern before lockdowns, but only among the ~5% of people who personally negotiated for a work-from-home/telecommuting arrangement. And it was not normal. It was vaguely looked down upon by superiors, unless you had been with the company for a long time and had proven your value. And among peers it was a little "weird." "Return to office" post-lockdown is not the same thing as "Work from home" pre-lockdown. The RTO thought pattern is similar, but the social feeling around it has flipped - is normal and not weird. (Yet still vaguely looked down on by some management)

SirMaster 2y ago

Then maybe you aren't a culture fit for that employer / office? My experience is just so different. I love the vibe and the camaraderie of my office. It makes it fun to work there. Just sitting at home working, never interacting with people in person sounds really dull and boring and cold to me. I had to do that in 2020 and I hated it. Productivity is nice, but IMO it's not all about productivity. As a worker I value my enjoyment of the job, and just being a robotic super productive worker is not as enjoyable as actually feeling like you are part of a team or community and having fun with your fellow coworkers. We spend so much of our lives on the clock, I would hate to have it all just be serious productive work 100% of the time.

spokaneplumb 2y ago
> My experience is just so different. I love the vibe and the camaraderie of my office. It makes it fun to work there. Me too! If we had free teleporters I'd probably go into the office for at least half my work day, just about every day, voluntarily. ... I don't like it enough to pay about 15 days per year, every year (5 hours commuting per week, times 50 weeks, divided by 16 waking hours per day[1]), hundreds of dollars a month commuting (gas, plus insurance and depreciation on a car), and make every single thing that happens at home and requires my attention less convenient and more disruptive in ways that probably also amount to at least several hundred dollars per year, one way or another, and quite a few extra micromorts/micro-chances-of-crippling-injury per year (risk of that ~250 hours of extra driving). Plus increased restrictions on where you can live, which can come with significant (tens of thousands per year) costs in many ways, including in raw dollar terms. It's nice, but the cost is really high. I'd also probably really have fun with a supercar, but I'd rather not buy one just the same. Far too pricey for the benefit, to me. [1] Perhaps more to the point, that means over six entire work-weeks of extra work time per year, uncompensated, just to get to and from work. A month and a half of extra work every year. And that's with an hour a day spent, lots of people have more than 30 minutes lost per day (nb you'd need to include extra gassing-up stops, and extra car maintenance visits, divided by commute days per year, to properly account for this—so your commute time would need to average somewhat under 30 minutes each way to hit only an hour lost each day, probably closer to 25 minutes than 30).

dygd 2y ago

For those who don't know the famous philosopher - it's George Carlin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nyvxt1svxso https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nyvxt1svxso

freejazz 2y ago

You really misunderstand why the jobs are in NYC, if you think that people only come to NYC for the jobs. On the same point, gosh you sound like a fun person! I know, I'm sure it's not part of your job to be personable. Though, I do wonder how an approach like that will work for most people.

screye 2y ago

I dislike RTO because none of that happens anymore. The economic landscape is too paranoid (despite positive macro indicators) for employees to enjoy work. People don't want to chit chat, just clock in clock out. Layoffs threat is ever present. Remote & odd-time zone meetings are still here. Can't turn off my computer after 5pm. In office benefits are limited. Mentoring, learning-seminars and after-work activities are soft discouraged. Why even come in ? _____________ > what's the point of a city like New York I agree that RTO mandates have to do with keeping downtown office space prices high. But, if you could work from anywhere, why wouldn't you want to be in the coolest city in the world? You don't need to be in Manhattan. But you can get some pretty great apartments while still being a 30 minutes subway ride from downtown. I visited NYC regularly through Covid, and it seemed quite lively. Remember, us programmers are a famously introverted & indoor bunch. Most people want to be in places with rich social lives apart from their smaller intimate communities.

surgical_fire 2y ago
A lot of people actually despise living in major cities. I was born in one, a huge metropolis, and lived in it for the most of my life. For a long time I was forced to live there, because the jobs were there too. In may ways, the pandemic was a blessing for me. Remote work allowed me to move to a small city, closer to a rural area. If depends solely on my desire, I will never again live in a major city.
- bdangubic 2y ago
  I am not sure if “a lot” is correct assessment. I live in urban area and most of my friends have either been fully remote before C19 or after. no one wants to move anywhere even though we could all live wherever. urban areas have numerous other advantages besides better job markets, especially if you have kids. schools, sports, theatre, etc etc.
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    If we qre exchanging anecdotes, I do know plenty of people that either moved out to the countryside, or would be willing to move if they were sure they could work remote indefinitely. I'd even say that having kids is one major factor in wanting to move out of big cities.

nunez 2y ago

Fun fact: We have a place called Billy Bob's Bagels in Houston, and it's actually fantastic!

nunez 2y ago

> If every single office job went remote, what's the point of a city like New York. Who's going to willingly pay $6,000 for an apartment, ride the trains for over an hour a day, if you can just sit at home in a much cheaper city . Yeah, but that's the heart of the problem here. The suburbs that many flocked to when WFH became acceptable are largely subsidized by city income. Cities are largely funded by employers paying hefty taxes to operate within them. Non-negligible portions of municipal budgets are also funded by small businesses that cannot exist without people working centrally somewhere. Until municipal governments figure out a different operating model, I don't think any major city can survive big companies pulling out en masse unless your desired end state looks like Detroit circa 2000. > I go to work in exchange for currency, which is required to acquire goods and services. All this other crap, all these holiday parties, all of this let's dance in diversity videos, no that's not what I'm here for . What of the people whose jobs aren't WFH compatible? "They get what they get?"

anthonygd 2y ago
> What of the people whose jobs aren't WFH compatible? "They get what they get?" What's your proposal here? Should I be forced into the office because it increases the chances I'll buy coffee instead of making it at home? Macro economic changes are always painful. This is a gross simplification, but cities exist because of an economic network effect based on proximity. Network effects tend to be somewhat stable because they tend to change slowly, but they do change.

tharne 2y ago

> If I had to think, I imagine the entire point of RTO mandates is to keep cities sustainable. Bingo

PoppinFreshDo 2y ago

Socializing with coworkers is valuable, and encouraging. Professionalism is learned largely or even exclusively by socialization.