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Sonos CEO Patrick Spence steps down after disastrous app launch
- jejfjfjfjsj 2y agoI’m using Sonos entirely through AirPlay and Spotify Connect. What’s the use case for the app, and why is it bad at it?
- massysett 2y agoThe app operates independently of your phone. Start music, turn off your phone, then control it from your iPad. Reduces battery drain. That said, the app is so terrible now that I avoid it and use Airplay. Will never buy Sonos again and glad my newest Sonos is now several years old. Bought a JBL Authentic and it works well with Airplay and is cheaper than a comparable Sonos.
- jgrahamc 2y agoI am not really surprised. I had the bad luck to buy a Sonos soundbar right when the new app was launched. I'd never seen the old app but all I knew was the thing was unusable. I had to return the soundbar.
- kristjansson 2y agoWhat issue(s) did you have with it?
- jgrahamc 2y agoI don't recall details but connection issues, the app freezing. I just gave up and returned it. The thing was the app was so hard to use and didn't work right that I just figured Sonos products were crap (this was the first I'd ever used) and gave up.
- kristjansson 2y agoI'm fascinated by the dichotomous view on them. I love my setup, haven't had more than the usual connecting-headless-device-to-wifi problems, use them every day as an alarm clock, am listening to them right now... I guess I use the macOS app more than iOS, which might contribute?
- canadiantim 2y agoSonos has been terrible vendor lock in for a long time. So user hostile
- ubermonkey 2y agoI mean, they were FOUNDED as a fairly turnkey solution -- lock in was baked in from the jump what, 20 years ago? At that time they had a great product, and were doing something genuinely novel and cool. Then they sat on their hands for too long.
- miah_ 2y agoSonos hardware is the stuff I see at thrift stores for ~$8 and won't even bother with. When you're as user hostile as they are you end up in landfills. Wish somebody would figure out how to unlock them and convert them into general purpose music streaming systems.
- failrate 2y agoIt is probably easier to use RaspberryPi.
- alkonaut 2y agoI built a sonos "clone" using a raspberry, the HiFiBerry board, shairplay, and an expensive amp/speakers that allowed digital connections (because doing anything with a raspberry and audio is pretty noisy when analog). Overall it cost about as much as a pair of Sonos 5's. In the end, the thing is now unused, and I went and bought a Sonos5 and couldn't be happier. Tiny things I just never got working in the Linux world are "just works" with Sonos. Sure, it has some annoyances but trivial things like "playback never starts with a loud pop" was almost impossible to get right. Tinkering with audio in Linux is rarely fun. Not to mention that i only built one system so never even had to deal with time syncing multiple systems (Though I'm sure someone has built some sort of linux solution to handle that too by now). So having done both of these two systems each for several years, I can strongly recommend Sonos. Sonos 5's (gen2) still sell for $4-500 used where I am. Which is astonishing for a product that is many years old by now and is $6-750 new. I wouldn't exactly say that's landfill. The Ikea bookshelf thing is also great and costs very little. Sound isn't comparable to the Five though. If you see a Sonos speaker for $8 in a thrift store, it's either broken or you should buy it and sell it on ebay.
- BikiniPrince 2y agoSomeone finally did for at least the Sonos One. After selling it in stores they quickly abandoned it. The CEO promised air play 2 update while it was being sold and then back peddled after discontinuing it. At first they said they would retire it entirely and effectively kill it. They eventually back peddled on that too after massive backlash. This was when I decided never to buy their locked in garbage again. Meanwhile, someone released a small app that advertised the device for airplay 2. It quietly runs on my garage server.
- leeoniya 2y agoi swear, this company just rolls from one PR disaster to the next. previously: https://old.reddit.com/r/sonos/comments/egi9np/sonos_permanently_bricks_perfectly_usable_devices/ https://old.reddit.com/r/sonos/comments/egi9np/sonos_permane... i remember helping an older relative get his sonos speaker working again due to some misconfig in their shitty software and it was a total pain in the ass. the whole time i'm thinking, why doesnt this wireless speaker simply support bluetooth instead of the locked down proprietary music library / cloud pairing junk.
- kitsune_ 2y agoGiven the number of poor product managers and product owners I've encountered in my career - those who don't seem to care at all about end users or people in general - I'm surprised incidents like this don't happen more frequently.
- duxup 2y agoI think for some (not all) folks writing code there is a sort of built in "this should actually work" mentality and that keeps A LOT of things running. Granted not all, I've worked with some widget makers who would rather just take tasks, do EXACTLY what it says, and move on regardless if it works or not. They love the certainty of process and want to just do that. Steve Jobs ran into that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4Cz49MLh4o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4Cz49MLh4o Granted as Steve mentioned, people worried about the end result are more work to deal with.
- mattgreenrocks 2y agoActually building things keeps you humble in a way that’s hard to articulate. You’re constantly contending with reality, not models/processes whose purpose is to smooth over things to present a facade of order.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago> Granted not all, I've worked with some widget makers who would rather just take tasks, do EXACTLY what it says, and move on regardless if it works or not. They love the certainty of process and want to just do that. I've been this guy, as a software engineer. It turns out that making widgets feeds my family, whereas pushing back on executives from my position on the totem pole runs a very real risk of being unable to do so.
- duxup 2y agoI think it certainly depends on the organization. Some companies seem to only allow coders to be widget makers. On the other hand, I worked with widget makers at companies where you had more freedom and sometimes it seemed like they were more interested in malicious compliance… it can really shaft coworkers too.
- fidotron 2y agoMy system has only been usable thanks to the efforts of a random German that wrote Sonophone; one guy outperforming a whole company. And Sonophone is very much "OK" in the sense it works, but it's got the strangest UI. This CEO, and his associated product management organisation, has completely destroyed all the goodwill that used to exist around Sonos, especially with respect to their ability to function almost entirely without external network access. It is an indictment of our society that such people get to bounce from company to company making millions while those attempting to do things the right way are repeatedly trampled on.
- coreyh14444 2y agoPatrick was at Sonos for 12 years, and 14 years at RIM before that, so he doesn't really fit the MO of a "bouncer.
- ubermonkey 2y agoWell, with that resume he should get a new gig in no time!
- amelius 2y agoNot if they do a quick internet search and find this thread.
- ubermonkey 2y agoOr literally any other news about RIM or Sonos.
- mistercheph 2y agoThis was always Sonos' destiny, from my perspective the current state of affairs is not an accident, it was always the whole business model of the integrated "home audio system" brand they are building.
- cityzen 2y ago
- hnthrow90348765 2y ago>Despite this seismic shift at the top, Sonos’ future product pipeline remains “full steam ahead,” Pategas told me. The company’s next major new product is rumored to be a streaming video player, which would pit it against the likes of Apple, Roku, Amazon, and Google in the living room. Dumb move, you're weaker than ever. You need to slow down. Trying to signal it this way gives no confidence. I'll take my $7500 and $1,875,000 severance please.
- boringg 2y agoYeah that is a terrible strategy. Sonos needs to retrench and improve their current system before walking into other very saturated markets which they will be a non-player except the few die hards. I'm worried in the long run my sonos players won't be supported because (a) the company burned all their money pursuing bad spend (b) company goes belly up (c) they decide it isn't worth maintaining the older speakers since they don't drive revenue but have to pay for maintenance.
- pluc 2y agoAnd what's gonna happen to the board who backed/demanded all these things I wonder
- codeulike 2y agoI was unlucky enough to start exploring using Sonos (as opposed to old Squeezebox) just as this new app thing hit. One weird thing about Sonos is that it seems to be "a home speaker system for homes that dont have any children in them". Like there doesnt seem to be a way to allow kids to play music on the things without giving them access to _everything_
- awnird 2y agoPatrick destroyed a successful company, and will be receiving millions of dollars on exit. His current replacement was an executive at the failed Quibi service. Nothing in tech will improve until there are actual consequences for people like this. Serial failures just hop from job to job. ruining products and lives along the way.
- mikeryan 2y agoTom Conrad didn’t have anything to do with Quibi’s failure. The app was actually pretty cool. That was a bad business model which a good product couldn’t fix. He’s a product guy going back to being CTO at Pandora. He seems like a pretty good interim choice all things considered.
- fidotron 2y agoApparently he has a tattoo of Sonos headphones on his left forearm.
- dlcarrier 2y agoIt had an unusually high minimum version number, which I calculated at the time meant that 10% of US phones and tablets in use at the time couldn't run it. When you've already limited your maximum possible user base to only that market, 10% makes big difference.
- coreyh14444 2y agoI replied the same thing in another thread, but Patrick was at Sonos for 12 years, and 14 years at RIM before that, so he doesn't really fit the MO of a "bouncer."
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- PoppinFreshDo 2y agoI think his point is that he can likely find a job elsewhere even after this. That he receive a golden parachute is cringe worthy.
- lawn 2y agoWe have a Sonos speaker in the Kitchen and I'm so done with it. We're going to renovate our kitchen in a few months and I plan to install a pair of speakers in the roof and hook them up to a Raspberry Pi with a Hifiberry amp and the HifiberryOS. I'm sure there will be issues but at least I'll be free of Sonos.
- schnable 2y agoCheck out Wiim. A few amp options that are half the price of Sonos.
- mvdtnz 2y agoWhy not just put your sound system on a shelf like everyone else so you don't need to renovate your kitchen next time you want to upgrade it.
- lawn 2y agoThey're just regular speakers you can connect to regular amps. If the raspberry pi doesn't work out I can simply switch that out.
- davidu 2y agoSo what are people using instead of Sonos AMP for home sound control?
- schnable 2y agoWiim for one option.
- DudeOpotomus 2y agoApple airplay works flawlessly. Or you can buy an old Amazon fire and connect them to your own hardware. Both of these solutions allow you to use any speaker/amp setup you choose. And if you truly care about sound quality, this is the only path.
- Maxion 2y agoAirPlay and multiroom is still a struggle though
- DudeOpotomus 2y agoAgreed but it has better sync tech than most others that I have tried. Yamaha's is buggy, Denon's buggy, but Apple TVs sync well in my multi level, multi system set up.
- ashtonbaker 2y agoWhat’s a good way to Airplay to your own speakers?
- DudeOpotomus 2y agoBuy an older Apple TV, or an Amazon Fire. Connect them to your receiver and you're good to go. Or buy a newer Yamaha or Denon receiver and they'll be ready to go out of the box.
- cosmic_cheese 2y agoAirPlay is as about as good as it gets I think. It’s been thoroughly reverse engineered so there’s lots of open source tools for it and it’s cheap to add speakers since used AirPort Expresses are still supported AirPlay targets.
- duxup 2y agoThey violated the "Things You Should Never Do, Part I" rule: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-... It's such a TEMPTING rule to violate... The amazing part was how BAD it went, supposedly engineers were raising every red flag possible that it wasn't ready and still they did it. Considering how bad it was I can't imagine having any faith in anyone up the chain of command having the power, or intelligence to do the right thing at this point it was such a bizarre failure.
- sergioisidoro 2y agoBasecamp violates that rule often and they are doing ok. If I remember right they even make it a strategy to re-write their whole application every few years. There's no hard rules in software engineering, and all best practices should be put into context. You don't know what monsters lurked in the old code base. So yes in some cases (but not often) re-write is a good / only choice.
- amelius 2y agoThe rewrite couldn't have caused this, because there was a single German developer who wrote a usable app, see this comment elsewhere [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42683999 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42683999
- duxup 2y agoI think the article actually goes into detail why a rewrite does cause these things. The reasons matter.
- sagacity 2y agoThis story reminds me of the new platform and related apps that were launched for the public broadcaster in The Netherlands, NPO. Pre-launch there were rousing interviews explaining how they rebuilt the system from scratch in a way that would allow them to release often, innovate quickly and generally work in an agile fashion. Meanwhile it has been over a year and basic stuff like "continue to watch next episode" and "child profiles" are still either broken or missing. And, of course, the old (functioning) apps don't work anymore.
- Bhilai 2y agoI’m not an audiophile, but after hearing Sonos at a friend’s house and being impressed, I decided to purchase a speaker for my kitchen, where I often listen to music while cooking. I opted for the Sonos Five, assuming that Bluetooth connectivity would be a standard feature on a standalone speaker, especially at this price point. To my surprise, a speaker costing nearly $600 doesn’t support Bluetooth—it only works via Wi-Fi streaming! If you’re an Android user, the limitations are even more frustrating. Playing music directly from YouTube isn’t possible without jumping through hoops, such as linking the Sonos app to YouTube or relying on third-party solutions. Ultimately, I returned the Sonos Five and chose a portable JBL speaker instead. It connects seamlessly via Bluetooth and gets the job done without any unnecessary complications.
- sofixa 2y ago> If you’re an Android user, the limitations are even more frustrating. Playing music directly from YouTube isn’t possible without jumping through hoops Unfortunately that's due to Google's bullshit. There's a lack of appropri APIs, that's why you'll notice that any "smart" audio device (by smart I mean, integrates directly with music streaming services/locally stored music) doesn't support YouTube nor YouTube Music. Music Assistant (sister project to Home Assistant) supports it via hacks such as pretending to be a TV or copy pasting auth cookies. It's frankly an embarrassment from Google not to have APIs for this, they only lose potential users.
- doctorpangloss 2y agoGoogle Assistant also stopped working abruptly on many devices, Sonos included for months. This guy did exactly what some Google exec wanted, which was to exact revenge on Sonos over a patent loss.
- sagarm 2y agoThe patent on changing volume for more than one speaker at a time? That was such bullshit. The software changes forced by the ITC ruling forced Google to basically break speaker groups. Not a surprise that might have resulted in some frayed business relationships.
- benhue-hn 2y ago[dead]
- wnolens 2y agoI also started investing in Sonos recently and damn the software is terrible. While I wish I could get 100% of my money back, I'm not sure there any turnkey alternative that is better. Every time I research I come back with "Sonos sucks but it's still the best".
- applied_heat 2y agoWhat functionality did Sonos provide that you are after? I use chromecast audio to play music throughout the house and it works great
- wnolens 2y agoA project that isn't discontinued, among other things. I don't want to fiddle or think about hw/sw interface or compatibility. Just buy high quality speakers and invest by adding pieces to my system over time.
- sofixa 2y agoIt's still early days in my use, but I've been quite happy with AudioPro (yeah, shitty name). Their devices look nice, sound really good, support a variety of protocols and integrate with a ton of steaming services directly (but you don't have to because you can just Bluetooth/Cast/Airplay/AUX to them). Their app is a tad ugly but it does everything I need it to.
- Maxion 2y agoYou really wouldn't think that the tech in this segment would be so hard to get right.
- michaelt 2y agoIDK, have you ever seen Smart TVs? Seems to me electronics hardware manufacturers and subscription internet streaming media services go together like oil and water.
- jagermo 2y ago
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- htrp 2y ago>Most recently, Conrad served as chief product officer for the ill-fated Quibi streaming service. Failing a product launch and replacing the CEO with the Chief Product Officer of a failed product launch sounds like it'll be just as disastrous.
- paxys 2y agoGonna say it's more than just a single bad app launch. The company's stock price is down 70% from its peak a few years ago. Their revenues have been falling quarter after quarter. Products are getting worse and yet the prices just keep going up. If any company needs an intervention it's this one.
- Aaronmacaron 2y agoI see a lot of negative comments in this thread about Sonos in general, which is interesting to me because I'm currently thinking about buying Sonos speakers. What exactly don't you like about it? Is there a good alternative to Sonos that ticks all the following boxes? - Connect two or more speakers wirelessly to get stereo sound (I hate cables) - Good support for different audio sources (bluetooth, Spotify, AirPlay, aux, etc..) - Ability to connect speakers of different models (which means you can upgrade your setup later as you see fit, for example add a subwoofer)
- mleo 2y agoI've had a Sonos system going back 10 years now. I started with 6 or 7 speakers and now it is at 15 [9 zones] Sonos speakers and 12 HomePods [6 pairs]. There have been hiccups along the way: - Migration from S1 to S2 having to replace early, older models such as Amp and Port. But have received some discounts on new speakers - Unifi network & Sonosnet issues with STP. Mostly solved by disabling Sonosnet - Sonos Roam speakers failing While having occasional issues with the new app design, it hasn't impacted much on a day to day basis. I didn't use much of the features that were lost initially, though I can see how it would be damaging to those who do. For playing whole home audio, I generally use Airplay integration and just group the speakers through AppleTV or iPad. I occasionally use the app to do so. The value I receive from each: - Sonos supports surround sound, whereas the HomePods do not. - Sonos is tied into home automation and some custom TTS announcements - Sonos Amp works with outdoor speakers and can update the speakers - The HomePod minis are small and less intrusive in certain areas of the home - HomePods have access to Siri and home control At one point I had several Echo devices, but it was annoying to constantly update that system for home automation integration. HomePods replaced all of those except for an Echo Show in the Kitchen. I never use bluetooth, nor felt it is a missing feature of my Sonos system or HomePods.
- HelloMcFly 2y agoThe app update was fucking terrible, but it's not the absolute mess it was originally (it's still sluggish at times, but I haven't had it outright fail me in a couple of months). Ultimately, I still find Sonos to be better for me than alternatives because the sound truly is good, and the ease of setting up a home theater wirelessly that I can also use to play my records is unmatched by any alternatives. As bad as Sonos's new app launch was, they still don't have a good competitor doing quite what they do. The speakers support AirPlay and the newer model of speakers support Bluetooth. I don't think any of them support Aux.
- SoftTalker 2y agoRemember when you could just plug in anything with an "aux" cord or line-level RCA connectors to your stereo and everything worked. We have gone so far backwards.
- raverbashing 2y agoBut there was an endless amount of people, even on this site throwing arguments as "BT is the future" or "you're just too poor to use BT because you don't want to buy a new headphone" yada yada yada Yes, losing the wired connection is going backwards
- mleo 2y agoWe traded one convenience for others. I can play the same music in sync across every room in the house and the backyard, and I didn't have to run speaker wires to 23 locations to do that. I can play any of millions of songs without having a room full of physical copies of the music. I can plug in an aux cord into the system if I need to do so.
- lenerdenator 2y agoAs an aside, a woman I was dating about three years ago wanted me to take a look at her Sonos to see if I could get it working. We never quite got to that stage before the relationship ended. Sounds like I dodged a tech support bullet.
- subpixel 2y agoIIRC Sonos emerged as a tool to allow you to access all of your music, from different speakers throughout your house. I might be glossing over some details but isn't this problem largely solved by other products almost everyone has now? Any cloud music service, a smart phone, and some bluetooth speakers? In my entire social network, I know of one person who has all of his music stored locally and who cares about the quality of bluetooth vs wifi transmission, which seem to be the key reasons someone would want a Sonos solution.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago> I might be glossing over some details but isn't this problem largely solved by other products almost everyone has now? Any cloud music service, a smart phone, and some bluetooth speakers? How do I configure several bluetooth speakers to play music across my whole house with a single phone?
- leeoniya 2y agohttps://www.whathifi.com/advice/what-is-auracast-and-when-is-the-revolutionary-bluetooth-audio-sharing-technology-coming https://www.whathifi.com/advice/what-is-auracast-and-when-is...
- pavel_lishin 2y agoInteresting. My Pixel 8, on Android 15, does not seem to allow broadcasting to multiple bluetooth devices, but I'll play around with it.
- kristjansson 2y ago> isn't this problem largely solved by other products No? I don’t want to use my speakers as output for all the audio from any given device, only the stream I want. So, the audio system needs to be capable of managing the stream itself, independent of the device I use to select/start/stop the stream. I don’t know of anything other than Sonos that manages that well. (Never mind the sibling comments point about syncing multiple wireless speakers to play the same audio without perceptible lag)
- jagermo 2y agoI do not like the new app, its so sluggish. And I really hate that they killed support for the previous app after the shitty launch. I have about 8 sonos devices here and was in the progress of upgrading my oldest ones. That stopped and i will not buy new products until they fix their shitty app or revert back. Its not much, but nothing else I can do (except send support requests whenever something does not work to drive up their metrics).
- dlcarrier 2y agoUnfortunately, a release that bad is the norm for most companies. The reason it hurt Sonos so hard is that they only have the one product.
- stephenitis 2y agoMostly happy with my Sonos products and the app has been functioning fine through daily multi user, multi Spotify account use
- kristjansson 2y agoWhat’s so bad about the new app? I have half a dozen Sonos devices (Amp, One SLs, … ) I use in various groupings, and haven’t had any huge issues? I guess the new app is a bit less intuitive, and maybe a bit slower (although that’s improved since launch)? I just haven’t seen behavior even approaching the “unusable” complaints I’ve seen online.
- voisin 2y ago#1 thing that drives me bonkers with the Sonos app is that when you search for an artist, you have to scan through dozens of singles and EPs to find their actual full length studio albums. For bigger bands there can be 40+ albums to find the one you want. Apple Music and Spotify group these and it is such a simple UI improvement.
- seatac76 2y agoGood. Although I feel has improved greatly in the last 2 months, destroying a networked ecosystem to launch headphones is simply inexcusable.
- Devasta 2y agoThis is the company that had a "recycling mode" that did nothing but brick the hardware, then leave a message with the user to dump it onto an unsuspecting recycling center to deal with the now useless lump of plastic. Fuck 'em.
- andrewla 2y agoI see a number of suggestions here for alternatives to Sonos but I'm not sure they meet the requirements or expectations of what I have for Sonos. I basically want anyone who is on my network to be able to use the music services that I have configured on my Sonos and queue music or set regions or whatever. Ideally this would be mostly unsecured but some light security would be fine -- I basically don't want it to be complicated. The wifi streaming (as opposed to AirPlay or Casting or Bluetooth) is so that once I start the music playing I no longer have to deal with any continuity of the system I used to trigger the music. The app changes have unfortunately transformed my Sonos setup into a mostly useless collection; I can still get it to work but it's so cumbersome and the search and playback functions are so broken that half the time it doesn't do what I want. Are there any real alternatives? Homepods and wiim don't appear to meet these criteria -- is there anything out there that is actually a good Sonos replacement?