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I've burnt out. It was horrible. I am doing much better now! The trick is to not care enough about your job to get hurt but not care so little that you could s

I've burnt out. It was horrible. I am doing much better now! The trick is to not care enough about your job to get hurt but not care so little that you could short-term be hurt. In many places if you get hurt/burnt out on the job the upper seats are looking for any reason to curb stomp you. There's no reason to give a company your all unless you have an actual stake in it or they are there to hold you up when you're dragging. I've worked at multiple places where influential people died, yes dead, below average life expectancy, - on the job - and corporate did everything they could to not even pay out on their legal obligations (life insurance, D&D). In some cases employees joked or snickered about the person who died later on - in meetings. In tech. I've found that you're not on your own but you are at the mercy of who is in charge of your schedule and rates your performance. If you lose trust in that person your best option is to leave as quickly as possible. Otherwise they will do what they can to destroy you for as much 'profit' as they can claim. Being clear. It is not about realized gains, it could even be at great detriment to a company. It is about short-term line item claimable gains. "We got 4 good months out of her...", "they were terminal and now they will be working somewhere better for them...", "he really wasn't closing as many tickets as the rest of the team...", "they weren't helping as many team members as the rest of the team...", "we never needed someone with an advanced degree...", etc. Check in with yourself regularly. Know the signs of burn out. The company you work for does not depend on any person caring about you in the slightest.

fullshark 2y ago
> The trick is to not care enough about your job to get hurt but not care so little that you could short-term be hurt. I'm here, but it just seems like a temporary fix. I can't imagine doing this for the rest of my life, but I need money and health insurance. What's the alternative, what did you end up doing?
- nostradumbasp 2y ago
  I don't have all the answers. I don't even know your situation. For me, I am still in tech. Like everyone else, my family needs the money. Once in a while I do something that satisfies me personally as well as the company I work for. rt Alternatives? Well, I think anything you can start up on your own where you have the autonomy and can dictate your hours/balance would be your medium term goal. I'm working towards mine, but I think its different for everyone. Contract working, consultant working, small personal business with a reduced hours main stream 9-5. My assumption is people like us, we care a lot, we are smart, we are capable, and when we get stuck in corporate swamps our inner candle starts to go out. We just need to find ways to spend less time in the swamp.
- javcasas 2y ago
  Do that while your mind figures out how to make money work for you. Everything is temporary, even you. You only need enough money for you to live from your 401k/rented houses/investments. Also, be on the lookout for new opportunities. And if you are a bit masochistic just try to work on something boring. Helps with "not caring enough, I'm just the computer equivalent of a payroll accountant, pay me and you'll get your payrolls on time".
  - gloryjulio 2y ago
    > Everything is temporary, even you. Glad to see some good old Buddhism philosophy at work. I am much happy now once I start thinking the same
- bradleyjg 2y ago
  There’s a lot of different ways to be miserable in this world but one in particular that seems to hit a lot of people in our industry is not knowing what you want. So many people followed a path laid out by others for so long—-study hard, do extracurriculars, go to a good college, study hard again, do internships, get a job with a prestigious company, work towards promo. At some point, generally in late 20s but can be before or after, many such people realize that they have if not everything they ever dreamed of then at least a lot of what they worked towards. But they still aren’t happy because in all those years they never figured out what kind of people they actually were—what it is that would make them happy. We all need money, but do you need that much money? If yes, then ok. Try to think about what you need the money for in the next stupid meeting about story points. But if no, then you have options.
  - polishdude20 2y ago
    I think it's not as simple as thinking: there is this one kind of person you are and it's a constant and you need to figure out who that is and how to be that person to be happy. People change a lot. There's no golden idol person in my future that would make me happy if only I could break free and become that person. That person changes constantly. I think we are unhappy because we've been fed a lie that that person is just over the horizon and you're not living your full life properly unless you become that person. The problem is that that person changes constantly. It's always out of reach and who's to say you will be happy once you get to that point? A change in mindset is the cure. But a change in mindset does not cause economies to scale, shareholders to get value and cause the wheels of industry to move. We are always arriving for something we think will save us.
    - Arisaka1 2y ago
      What gets me more is the constant narrative of the pursuit of happiness as the end goal, which drives people into painting the perfect future in their imagination where their relationships have zero friction, they enjoy every day in the office, etc. Because you just can't think "what would make me happy" without involving people who aren't even around in the present moment. In fact, if somehow someone manages to come up with a way to satisfy happiness by ignoring their environment then that person deserves my sympathy, because the goal is not to be "happy no matter what goes around you": That requires detachment.
datavirtue 2y ago
At work it is clear. 25% growth per year or we are all out of work. What more do you need, we are all in the same boat from the CEO on down. We used to run companies and share stock. Now private equity hands out money and goals and if the goals aren't met your company that is doing great and turning 15% per year evaporates on the next recap.
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
  I'm not out of work just because one company goes under, though
- mcmcmc 2y ago
  If you have to grow 25% every year just to stay afloat, I hate to break it to you but your business model is shit
  - santoshalper 2y ago
    I think he's saying they have to grow 25% per year to please their PE overlords.
    - mcmcmc 2y ago
      Ah. Well then yeah, I think it’s safe to say the business model of PE wealth extraction is broken. That or businesses that need to take on PE funding are probably not very sound.
      - TeMPOraL 2y ago
        PE is what happens when a company dies - PE is how the carcass of the company rots.
  - datavirtue 2y ago
    Private equity is not happy with 15% because they can get that by parking their money in a REIT. They are shooting for the moon, period. Once you take their money their is no backing out. It's to the moon or close up shop.
bdndndndbve 2y ago
Individual self-reliance and coping only goes so far. I think OP's thesis is that this is a larger cultural issue of capitalism increasingly squeezing every once of joy out of people's lives, and demanding more labour from fewer people under dehumanizing conditions. From a Marxist perspective I think we're seeing the synthesis of deeply individualistic capitalist culture, and the renewed awareness of class consciousness and workers rights. In the past these kind of conflicts have led to the 5 day work week, The New Deal, etc. But the same conditiona can also lead to far-right authoritarianism.
- achierius 2y ago
  Love seeing this kind of analysis on HN of all places. At least today we can hope that our understanding of history will lead to people being less electorally friendly to the fascist right than they were the first time around.
  - bdndndndbve 2y ago
    The trend among men, sadly, is a flight from higher education. It used to be a status symbol, but since more women are entering STEM fields men are increasingly looking for alternative credentials like bootcamps. This is a common phenomenon in many fields across time, where men flee "feminized" work and it becomes less prestigious. A side effect of higher education becoming "low status" is that men are going to vocational schools that don't teach "useless" topics like philosophy or history. Which makes them more vulnerable to radicalization.
    - fn-mote 2y ago
      Interesting. > men are going to vocational schools that don't teach "useless" topics like philosophy or history And to be clear this includes prestigious nationally-ranked “tech” schools, right? Possibly even those with lip service to a liberal arts education where one can actually be excused from “distribution requirement” courses based on their high school experience. (Oh, you support that? Well… maybe I did too, but I sure didn’t understand the connections. Maybe a class would have helped.)
cindycindy 2y ago
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Trasmatta 2y ago
I've tried the "don't care too much or too little" dance, and it's only a temporary fix, at least for me. It's really hard to walk that tightrope.
- goodcharles 2y ago
  I just watch this monthly, it helps https://youtu.be/UFqz5xkgRbs https://youtu.be/UFqz5xkgRbs
  - evjan 2y ago
    541 views, on an 8 years old video. How many of those are you responsible for? Anyway I put it on my watch later list, thanks!
  - convolvatron 2y ago
    I watched through some of this. This all seems very wise and well-informed. However the answer given is to spend a lot of energy attempting to work the system in fairly subtle ways to get the outcome you want - that the organization will accept your well-intentioned contributions to their functioning and eventual profit. All it takes is one or two people in the right place that don't share the same goal or are just really not that good to turn that into an exercise in futility.
  - peterldowns 2y ago
    I just watched this — pretty good talk, thanks for linking it.
NotGMan 2y ago
>> but you are at the mercy of who is in charge Once you realize that that person is an idiot or is against you it kills you psychologically because you realize you are in a dead end.
- nostradumbasp 2y ago
  Hi definitely not a G Man. Personally, idiots are fine as long as they listen to their team-mates when it matters. Maybe that means they aren't idiots... Anyway, adversarial bosses and extremely poorly managed projects are the issue for me. That is a dead-end with possible health issues and career [Vio]ing sprinkled on-top. There's no helping it either. Digging harder just keeps the murderer's [Psy]hes cleaner. That's the trap I see a lot of people fall into.
HPsquared 2y ago
It's like impedance matching.
osigurdson 2y ago
>> and rates your performance I think in practice it is much more complicated than that. While org charts largely a tree, the influence graph is often very different. It isn't like the immediate manager can just fire anyone they feel like without consequences in most orgs.
- nostradumbasp 2y ago
  Yea but your immediate manager can easily set a person up for complete failure and broadcast only the failings. I've seen it happen to different people on many occasions. Basically the old "balance these 12 things 1 of them, the 1 you drop will end up being me and my buddy bosses most important item and the other 11 are worthless". Or "no need to attend that meeting" and if you don't show oh boy strike one. Positions of influence are super easy to game.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - osigurdson 2y ago
    It depends to the extent that the org chart == influence graph.
righthand 2y ago
The trick is to stay out of product meetings and not actually care how cool and interesting and useful the product can or will be. Only give feedback to your inner circle (manager, peers) when asked about it. Most importantly, enjoy the tasks assigned to you however dull or basic they may be after you mastered them. Be proud of your work. EDIT: These are things to do together if you have no agency at a company to change it. If you need help getting agency, work with your manager to get data to back up your arguments.
- cobertos 2y ago
  This is so hard! It leads to poor products/the loudest voice wins. Rarely is there a coherent long-term vision. Even at the benefit of the single participant/employee
  - righthand 2y ago
    I would argue you’re still caring too much. If you can abstract your care into another project either at the company or in your personal time the crappy product won’t matter. If you have to speak against someone, get data to back yourself up. Or get the loud mouth hooked on data and solve it that way.
- steveBK123 2y ago
  I've found some combination of agency, upside, and interesting problems to solve are the recipe for not burning out. Not working for a jerk manager / at a company with bad culture helps, but is not sufficient. I've burned out in a "nice culture" company faster than a "cutthroat culture" company because the nice guys didn't allow much agency.
- tuyguntn 2y ago
  "enjoy the tasks assigned to you however dull or basic they may be after you mastered them. Be proud of your work." Ohhh, this is freakin hard to me. Bunch of users are complaining about feature not working properly in our Enterprise product, but it's not impactful enough to fix, because those users are not going to complain to their CEO/COO about broken feature in our product, because they themselves might be labeled as COMPLAINER and eventually kicked out. What's impactful? Of course new shiny AI-powered green button, it's so amazing, project created by a super talented story teller engineer and who is good at selling it to leadership. Does it impact metrics? Yes, of course, those metrics are also crafted specifically for that feature. (more time user spends on that page, more impactful. Is it? maybe users are confused or can't find what they're looking for? Can you tell it to leadership? Ohh they approved this metric and project, are you against VP+ leadership's decisions?) And we wonder, why do we have double digit customer churn rate.
nine_zeros 2y ago
> It is about short-term line item claimable gains. "We got 4 good months out of her...", "they were terminal and now they will be working somewhere better for them...", "he really wasn't closing as many tickets as the rest of the team...", "they weren't helping as many team members as the rest of the team...", "we never needed someone with an advanced degree...", etc. This resonates with me. The org chart cares about headcount - it doesn't matter to them who fills the count. Only plausible heads who could pass some random interview. The upper bosses don't see you as human, only as chess pieces to move around to fit a narrative. If the narrative against you shifts to the negative, there are many ways to justify your exit. They don't care if you die, or your children go hungry, or you lose your house or healthcare. What they care about is narratives that justify their own existence in the org chart. They don't even care about the services or products they build. It is just about their own existence. Every other effort be damned. Reader, now that you are aware that they don't care about anything - and certainly not about you - it is really up to you to secure yourself financially, physically, emotionally and preserve your time. If they come at you with reviews or other BS, you should consider your time is up, safeguard yourself, and sabotage them if you can. This is fair. Remember that you are playing with the same rules as them. If they can't care about engineering, you sure as hell don't need to. If they care about politics, you sure as hell play it with them. Take it as a toxic game but secure your life - as far away from corporate toxicity as possible.
- nostradumbasp 2y ago
  There are tons of companies that don't even produce things anymore, all they do is buy and sell other companies as a "portfolio". Really weird to think about! Let me advise against sabotage. There's a saying about seeking revenge and digging two graves. The truth is, this whole thing is unsustainable, and will collapse on it's own. No one actually has to do anything to sabotage something like this. I recommend instead to "document" and "socialize". The people who operate this way are sloppy, greedy, and think they are invincible. Don't do anything to convince them they are though. They are always, and I mean always, fucking up. Spread the good word of your documented and likely illegal treatment to a pro-bono employment lawyer before or after a likely illegal lay-off and get a severance as a settlement avoiding court entirely (if you wish). Socialize with others you trust in your industry about the treatment at the companies that operate this way. Be weary of slander, that's what documentations helps with. Word travels fast. In the old days this was how people dealt with societal outcasts. With the internet, this is easier than ever. That said, I can't control what someone decides to do but I will share. One of the "worst" things you can do at a company like this is be really nice to people inside and outside your team, and do your job within your means. It drives the creatures up a wall. Sometimes after you leave even if not by your own volition, others will follow suite by their own accord.
vonnik 2y ago
I burned out bad running a startup and shutting it down during Covid. I managed to recover since then. There are lots of causal factors leading to burnout. It’s basically a long term energy imbalance along multiple dimensions. One of those dimensions is attentional fatigue caused by our messy digital environment: https://vonnik.substack.com/p/how-to-take-your-brain-back https://vonnik.substack.com/p/how-to-take-your-brain-back But there are other factors that feed into it: physical, emotional, social. I highly recommend attention span by Gloria Mark, The Power of Engagement by Jim Loehr, and for those who want to change their life, Tiny Habits by BJ Fogg.
Centigonal 2y ago
> The trick is to not care enough about your job to get hurt but not care so little that you could short-term be hurt. It really depends on your personal psychology. After I burnt out in a demanding role that I adopted as a big part of my identity, I joined a new company vowing to not take work as seriously (I remember telling myself, "if excess effort isn't rewarded, the optimal strategy is to maximize compensation, minimize necessary effort, and eliminate excess effort"). After a few months of recovery and ruminating on why I still felt so bad (plus therapy), I learned a few things about myself: 1. I feel like garbage when I'm half-assing something at work or not giving my all -- especially when the people around me are putting in the work. 2. When I am giving my all and I feel like I'm not being recognized, I begin to lose motivation and burn out. Simple tasks become very laborious. This is a gradual, months-long process that is difficult to recognize is happening. 3. When I start to burn out, I am forced by my mind and body to half-ass things, which makes me more demotivated, which exacerbates the burnout. Putting these insights into action, I've so far been able to keep burnout at bay by finding roles where I can give work my all, receive recognition, and be surrounded by others who are putting in similar effort. This doesn't mean blindly trusting the company or destroying my work-life balance -- I believe that "recognition for hard work" includes proactively protecting hard workers from their workaholic tendencies and giving them the flexibility to take breaks. I'm lucky to work with really great people where I frequently pass along responsibilities or take work from others to avoid over-stressing any one person and enable things like multi-week vacations. I have no idea how I will change my approach if I lose this workplace dynamic or pick up more forcing functions on my workday (e.g. having kids) in the future, but it's working pretty well for me right now. All of this is to say: for me, the low-trust "do the bare minimum to stay employed" approach didn't actually help me get out of burnout into fulfillment -- What helped was finding a work situation where I could give my all and not feel taken advantage of. People are wired differently, so I want to caution against a one-size-fits-all approach.
- sgarland 2y ago
  What industry did you find this unicorn job in? I feel exactly as you described in your list.
  - 2y ago
77pt77 2y ago
> It is not about realized gains, it could even be at great detriment to a company. It is about short-term line item claimable gains. It's not even about that. People need to realize that inflicting suffering on those "under" someone is one of the main motivators of human behavior. It's innate and it exists because the abuser get tremendous benefits, including health-wise.
- nostradumbasp 2y ago
  I see what you mean, but I disagree that this is an innate trait in human beings. I believe it is sometimes socialized, poor understanding of zero-sum games, etc. Often-times its just garden variety psychopathy, narcissism, and other dark personality traits. For those people its definitely innate. Unfortunately psychopaths pathologically do everything they can to position themselves into seats like management/leadership. It's kind of a tricky situation for other-wise mentally well people.
PittleyDunkin 2y ago
> The trick is to not care enough about your job to get hurt but not care so little that you could short-term be hurt. Unfortunately this situation isn't able to be earnestly evaluated in the US without enormous effort to reform labor law. (Or if it is earnestly evaluated it obviously biases the needs of the employer rather than the entity that matters.)
harha_ 2y ago
I'm currently recovering from burnout and the trick of not caring just does not work for me. This is my 2nd burnout and even though I learned that trick among other things from the 1st, it just does not work because I think it's a problem that stems from my personality. I care too much about various things that are related to my work.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  Same, I am in my 40s and so far have never found a way to not care. I am simply that kind of person and I have screamed and raged against it many times, still couldn't change. If I stop caring I'll become somebody else entirely; it will profoundly change everything I do in every venue of life, intimate life / marriage included. I just can't see it ever changing. But, as people love to say, everyone eventually gets to their own level of incompetence. This is definitely mine. I want to be able to segment my not caring and I am trying various things; nothing so far works but some measures have netted very small results -- like being dead-tired and suffering from 3 separate heavy health conditions, for example. If that can be counted as "a measure that works", that is. :D
- Aeolun 2y ago
  I have the same issue, but I’ve found that the trick is for me work on things I care about, even if that’s not necessarily the main goal of the organisation. Just find things that have enough overlap that nobody in leadership can say you’re not working towards useful goals. I’m not sure how replicable it is in a different org though, and I’m not likely to leave to find out xD
- BehindBlueEyes 2y ago
  distancing oneself from work (not caring) is a symptom of burnout, symptoms are a coping mechanism but that doesn't mean they're a cure... sure a fever helps fight illness but a caugh might just spread it. Personnally, I can't not care either but i also don't think it is a solution. For me not caring actually makes things worse because it is disempowering.
agumonkey 2y ago
> The trick is to not care enough about your job to get hurt but not care so little that you could short-term be hurt. how to balance that with the fact that you wanted more than just waking up for a paycheck by working in this field ? being passive and bored (reminds me that bore-out exists too) is not how i envision a happy life
mihaaly 2y ago
It is so depriving to interview for new position the very same way with the very same narratives after three positions you don't really care about. Yes, I am a serial no-caring person now into three of my recent jobs after the initial months of inflated and intentional self blinding positivism pulled over my mind to numb it from fear of growing futileness. Previous two was left before even havin a new place, now I have children and it is so desperate economic reasoning stuck in a hopeless and unreliable situation that the demotivation is closing on unbearable poisoning my private life (this is what I want to show to my children?). I am trying to convince my wife (and in fact myself too) of working for myself instead. Different risky, but just different, not more. Staying is also risky. I am at the mercy of a disliked and faceless organization. People come and go, we were just aquired by an investor aiming at squeezing out more money, yes, not the product or activity is in the focus but pure money, the rest is secondary, whatever is fine as long the income grows, need to feed now the advisors and investors and lawyers and bankers in addition of the current organization, and in a shorten timeframe because there are clear goals about income for the next 5 years. About the income, the faith of the product is a secondary, indirect/dependent matter. People want their money back very soon, plus more. I can become an obstacle in any minute when they figure out they need no R&D for income in the next 5 years, just like with VMWare and Broadcom and similars. I find myself in a situation like shown in this The Economist article [1] with no hope finding better, as the others I am actively interviewing are already went through the same or going through the same currently: "Identify a mature business, ideally one that is critical for customers. Buy it at a decent price. Cut it to the bone by reducing the workforce, eliminating less lucrative products and slashing research-and-development budgets. Jack up prices for captive clients. Harvest the cash. Fork lots of it out to shareholders through dividends and share repurchases, which big tech tends to shun. Take what is left and repeat." Why try hard if I will end up in the same ditch not trying hard?.... [1] https://www.economist.com/business/2024/12/19/meet-the-most-ruthless-ceo-in-the-trillion-dollar-tech-club https://www.economist.com/business/2024/12/19/meet-the-most-...

fullshark 2y ago

> The trick is to not care enough about your job to get hurt but not care so little that you could short-term be hurt. I'm here, but it just seems like a temporary fix. I can't imagine doing this for the rest of my life, but I need money and health insurance. What's the alternative, what did you end up doing?

nostradumbasp 2y ago
I don't have all the answers. I don't even know your situation. For me, I am still in tech. Like everyone else, my family needs the money. Once in a while I do something that satisfies me personally as well as the company I work for. rt Alternatives? Well, I think anything you can start up on your own where you have the autonomy and can dictate your hours/balance would be your medium term goal. I'm working towards mine, but I think its different for everyone. Contract working, consultant working, small personal business with a reduced hours main stream 9-5. My assumption is people like us, we care a lot, we are smart, we are capable, and when we get stuck in corporate swamps our inner candle starts to go out. We just need to find ways to spend less time in the swamp.
javcasas 2y ago
Do that while your mind figures out how to make money work for you. Everything is temporary, even you. You only need enough money for you to live from your 401k/rented houses/investments. Also, be on the lookout for new opportunities. And if you are a bit masochistic just try to work on something boring. Helps with "not caring enough, I'm just the computer equivalent of a payroll accountant, pay me and you'll get your payrolls on time".
- gloryjulio 2y ago
  > Everything is temporary, even you. Glad to see some good old Buddhism philosophy at work. I am much happy now once I start thinking the same
bradleyjg 2y ago
There’s a lot of different ways to be miserable in this world but one in particular that seems to hit a lot of people in our industry is not knowing what you want. So many people followed a path laid out by others for so long—-study hard, do extracurriculars, go to a good college, study hard again, do internships, get a job with a prestigious company, work towards promo. At some point, generally in late 20s but can be before or after, many such people realize that they have if not everything they ever dreamed of then at least a lot of what they worked towards. But they still aren’t happy because in all those years they never figured out what kind of people they actually were—what it is that would make them happy. We all need money, but do you need that much money? If yes, then ok. Try to think about what you need the money for in the next stupid meeting about story points. But if no, then you have options.
- polishdude20 2y ago
  I think it's not as simple as thinking: there is this one kind of person you are and it's a constant and you need to figure out who that is and how to be that person to be happy. People change a lot. There's no golden idol person in my future that would make me happy if only I could break free and become that person. That person changes constantly. I think we are unhappy because we've been fed a lie that that person is just over the horizon and you're not living your full life properly unless you become that person. The problem is that that person changes constantly. It's always out of reach and who's to say you will be happy once you get to that point? A change in mindset is the cure. But a change in mindset does not cause economies to scale, shareholders to get value and cause the wheels of industry to move. We are always arriving for something we think will save us.
  - Arisaka1 2y ago
    What gets me more is the constant narrative of the pursuit of happiness as the end goal, which drives people into painting the perfect future in their imagination where their relationships have zero friction, they enjoy every day in the office, etc. Because you just can't think "what would make me happy" without involving people who aren't even around in the present moment. In fact, if somehow someone manages to come up with a way to satisfy happiness by ignoring their environment then that person deserves my sympathy, because the goal is not to be "happy no matter what goes around you": That requires detachment.

datavirtue 2y ago

At work it is clear. 25% growth per year or we are all out of work. What more do you need, we are all in the same boat from the CEO on down. We used to run companies and share stock. Now private equity hands out money and goals and if the goals aren't met your company that is doing great and turning 15% per year evaporates on the next recap.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
I'm not out of work just because one company goes under, though
mcmcmc 2y ago
If you have to grow 25% every year just to stay afloat, I hate to break it to you but your business model is shit
- santoshalper 2y ago
  I think he's saying they have to grow 25% per year to please their PE overlords.
  - mcmcmc 2y ago
    Ah. Well then yeah, I think it’s safe to say the business model of PE wealth extraction is broken. That or businesses that need to take on PE funding are probably not very sound.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      PE is what happens when a company dies - PE is how the carcass of the company rots.
- datavirtue 2y ago
  Private equity is not happy with 15% because they can get that by parking their money in a REIT. They are shooting for the moon, period. Once you take their money their is no backing out. It's to the moon or close up shop.

bdndndndbve 2y ago

Individual self-reliance and coping only goes so far. I think OP's thesis is that this is a larger cultural issue of capitalism increasingly squeezing every once of joy out of people's lives, and demanding more labour from fewer people under dehumanizing conditions. From a Marxist perspective I think we're seeing the synthesis of deeply individualistic capitalist culture, and the renewed awareness of class consciousness and workers rights. In the past these kind of conflicts have led to the 5 day work week, The New Deal, etc. But the same conditiona can also lead to far-right authoritarianism.

achierius 2y ago
Love seeing this kind of analysis on HN of all places. At least today we can hope that our understanding of history will lead to people being less electorally friendly to the fascist right than they were the first time around.
- bdndndndbve 2y ago
  The trend among men, sadly, is a flight from higher education. It used to be a status symbol, but since more women are entering STEM fields men are increasingly looking for alternative credentials like bootcamps. This is a common phenomenon in many fields across time, where men flee "feminized" work and it becomes less prestigious. A side effect of higher education becoming "low status" is that men are going to vocational schools that don't teach "useless" topics like philosophy or history. Which makes them more vulnerable to radicalization.
  - fn-mote 2y ago
    Interesting. > men are going to vocational schools that don't teach "useless" topics like philosophy or history And to be clear this includes prestigious nationally-ranked “tech” schools, right? Possibly even those with lip service to a liberal arts education where one can actually be excused from “distribution requirement” courses based on their high school experience. (Oh, you support that? Well… maybe I did too, but I sure didn’t understand the connections. Maybe a class would have helped.)

cindycindy 2y ago

[dead]

Trasmatta 2y ago

I've tried the "don't care too much or too little" dance, and it's only a temporary fix, at least for me. It's really hard to walk that tightrope.

goodcharles 2y ago
I just watch this monthly, it helps https://youtu.be/UFqz5xkgRbs https://youtu.be/UFqz5xkgRbs
- evjan 2y ago
  541 views, on an 8 years old video. How many of those are you responsible for? Anyway I put it on my watch later list, thanks!
- convolvatron 2y ago
  I watched through some of this. This all seems very wise and well-informed. However the answer given is to spend a lot of energy attempting to work the system in fairly subtle ways to get the outcome you want - that the organization will accept your well-intentioned contributions to their functioning and eventual profit. All it takes is one or two people in the right place that don't share the same goal or are just really not that good to turn that into an exercise in futility.
- peterldowns 2y ago
  I just watched this — pretty good talk, thanks for linking it.

NotGMan 2y ago

>> but you are at the mercy of who is in charge Once you realize that that person is an idiot or is against you it kills you psychologically because you realize you are in a dead end.

nostradumbasp 2y ago
Hi definitely not a G Man. Personally, idiots are fine as long as they listen to their team-mates when it matters. Maybe that means they aren't idiots... Anyway, adversarial bosses and extremely poorly managed projects are the issue for me. That is a dead-end with possible health issues and career [Vio]ing sprinkled on-top. There's no helping it either. Digging harder just keeps the murderer's [Psy]hes cleaner. That's the trap I see a lot of people fall into.

HPsquared 2y ago

It's like impedance matching.

osigurdson 2y ago

>> and rates your performance I think in practice it is much more complicated than that. While org charts largely a tree, the influence graph is often very different. It isn't like the immediate manager can just fire anyone they feel like without consequences in most orgs.

nostradumbasp 2y ago
Yea but your immediate manager can easily set a person up for complete failure and broadcast only the failings. I've seen it happen to different people on many occasions. Basically the old "balance these 12 things 1 of them, the 1 you drop will end up being me and my buddy bosses most important item and the other 11 are worthless". Or "no need to attend that meeting" and if you don't show oh boy strike one. Positions of influence are super easy to game.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- osigurdson 2y ago
  It depends to the extent that the org chart == influence graph.

righthand 2y ago

The trick is to stay out of product meetings and not actually care how cool and interesting and useful the product can or will be. Only give feedback to your inner circle (manager, peers) when asked about it. Most importantly, enjoy the tasks assigned to you however dull or basic they may be after you mastered them. Be proud of your work. EDIT: These are things to do together if you have no agency at a company to change it. If you need help getting agency, work with your manager to get data to back up your arguments.

cobertos 2y ago
This is so hard! It leads to poor products/the loudest voice wins. Rarely is there a coherent long-term vision. Even at the benefit of the single participant/employee
- righthand 2y ago
  I would argue you’re still caring too much. If you can abstract your care into another project either at the company or in your personal time the crappy product won’t matter. If you have to speak against someone, get data to back yourself up. Or get the loud mouth hooked on data and solve it that way.
steveBK123 2y ago
I've found some combination of agency, upside, and interesting problems to solve are the recipe for not burning out. Not working for a jerk manager / at a company with bad culture helps, but is not sufficient. I've burned out in a "nice culture" company faster than a "cutthroat culture" company because the nice guys didn't allow much agency.
tuyguntn 2y ago
"enjoy the tasks assigned to you however dull or basic they may be after you mastered them. Be proud of your work." Ohhh, this is freakin hard to me. Bunch of users are complaining about feature not working properly in our Enterprise product, but it's not impactful enough to fix, because those users are not going to complain to their CEO/COO about broken feature in our product, because they themselves might be labeled as COMPLAINER and eventually kicked out. What's impactful? Of course new shiny AI-powered green button, it's so amazing, project created by a super talented story teller engineer and who is good at selling it to leadership. Does it impact metrics? Yes, of course, those metrics are also crafted specifically for that feature. (more time user spends on that page, more impactful. Is it? maybe users are confused or can't find what they're looking for? Can you tell it to leadership? Ohh they approved this metric and project, are you against VP+ leadership's decisions?) And we wonder, why do we have double digit customer churn rate.

nine_zeros 2y ago

> It is about short-term line item claimable gains. "We got 4 good months out of her...", "they were terminal and now they will be working somewhere better for them...", "he really wasn't closing as many tickets as the rest of the team...", "they weren't helping as many team members as the rest of the team...", "we never needed someone with an advanced degree...", etc. This resonates with me. The org chart cares about headcount - it doesn't matter to them who fills the count. Only plausible heads who could pass some random interview. The upper bosses don't see you as human, only as chess pieces to move around to fit a narrative. If the narrative against you shifts to the negative, there are many ways to justify your exit. They don't care if you die, or your children go hungry, or you lose your house or healthcare. What they care about is narratives that justify their own existence in the org chart. They don't even care about the services or products they build. It is just about their own existence. Every other effort be damned. Reader, now that you are aware that they don't care about anything - and certainly not about you - it is really up to you to secure yourself financially, physically, emotionally and preserve your time. If they come at you with reviews or other BS, you should consider your time is up, safeguard yourself, and sabotage them if you can. This is fair. Remember that you are playing with the same rules as them. If they can't care about engineering, you sure as hell don't need to. If they care about politics, you sure as hell play it with them. Take it as a toxic game but secure your life - as far away from corporate toxicity as possible.

nostradumbasp 2y ago
There are tons of companies that don't even produce things anymore, all they do is buy and sell other companies as a "portfolio". Really weird to think about! Let me advise against sabotage. There's a saying about seeking revenge and digging two graves. The truth is, this whole thing is unsustainable, and will collapse on it's own. No one actually has to do anything to sabotage something like this. I recommend instead to "document" and "socialize". The people who operate this way are sloppy, greedy, and think they are invincible. Don't do anything to convince them they are though. They are always, and I mean always, fucking up. Spread the good word of your documented and likely illegal treatment to a pro-bono employment lawyer before or after a likely illegal lay-off and get a severance as a settlement avoiding court entirely (if you wish). Socialize with others you trust in your industry about the treatment at the companies that operate this way. Be weary of slander, that's what documentations helps with. Word travels fast. In the old days this was how people dealt with societal outcasts. With the internet, this is easier than ever. That said, I can't control what someone decides to do but I will share. One of the "worst" things you can do at a company like this is be really nice to people inside and outside your team, and do your job within your means. It drives the creatures up a wall. Sometimes after you leave even if not by your own volition, others will follow suite by their own accord.

vonnik 2y ago

I burned out bad running a startup and shutting it down during Covid. I managed to recover since then. There are lots of causal factors leading to burnout. It’s basically a long term energy imbalance along multiple dimensions. One of those dimensions is attentional fatigue caused by our messy digital environment: https://vonnik.substack.com/p/how-to-take-your-brain-back https://vonnik.substack.com/p/how-to-take-your-brain-back But there are other factors that feed into it: physical, emotional, social. I highly recommend attention span by Gloria Mark, The Power of Engagement by Jim Loehr, and for those who want to change their life, Tiny Habits by BJ Fogg.

Centigonal 2y ago

> The trick is to not care enough about your job to get hurt but not care so little that you could short-term be hurt. It really depends on your personal psychology. After I burnt out in a demanding role that I adopted as a big part of my identity, I joined a new company vowing to not take work as seriously (I remember telling myself, "if excess effort isn't rewarded, the optimal strategy is to maximize compensation, minimize necessary effort, and eliminate excess effort"). After a few months of recovery and ruminating on why I still felt so bad (plus therapy), I learned a few things about myself: 1. I feel like garbage when I'm half-assing something at work or not giving my all -- especially when the people around me are putting in the work. 2. When I am giving my all and I feel like I'm not being recognized, I begin to lose motivation and burn out. Simple tasks become very laborious. This is a gradual, months-long process that is difficult to recognize is happening. 3. When I start to burn out, I am forced by my mind and body to half-ass things, which makes me more demotivated, which exacerbates the burnout. Putting these insights into action, I've so far been able to keep burnout at bay by finding roles where I can give work my all, receive recognition, and be surrounded by others who are putting in similar effort. This doesn't mean blindly trusting the company or destroying my work-life balance -- I believe that "recognition for hard work" includes proactively protecting hard workers from their workaholic tendencies and giving them the flexibility to take breaks. I'm lucky to work with really great people where I frequently pass along responsibilities or take work from others to avoid over-stressing any one person and enable things like multi-week vacations. I have no idea how I will change my approach if I lose this workplace dynamic or pick up more forcing functions on my workday (e.g. having kids) in the future, but it's working pretty well for me right now. All of this is to say: for me, the low-trust "do the bare minimum to stay employed" approach didn't actually help me get out of burnout into fulfillment -- What helped was finding a work situation where I could give my all and not feel taken advantage of. People are wired differently, so I want to caution against a one-size-fits-all approach.

sgarland 2y ago
What industry did you find this unicorn job in? I feel exactly as you described in your list.
- 2y ago

77pt77 2y ago

> It is not about realized gains, it could even be at great detriment to a company. It is about short-term line item claimable gains. It's not even about that. People need to realize that inflicting suffering on those "under" someone is one of the main motivators of human behavior. It's innate and it exists because the abuser get tremendous benefits, including health-wise.

nostradumbasp 2y ago
I see what you mean, but I disagree that this is an innate trait in human beings. I believe it is sometimes socialized, poor understanding of zero-sum games, etc. Often-times its just garden variety psychopathy, narcissism, and other dark personality traits. For those people its definitely innate. Unfortunately psychopaths pathologically do everything they can to position themselves into seats like management/leadership. It's kind of a tricky situation for other-wise mentally well people.

PittleyDunkin 2y ago

> The trick is to not care enough about your job to get hurt but not care so little that you could short-term be hurt. Unfortunately this situation isn't able to be earnestly evaluated in the US without enormous effort to reform labor law. (Or if it is earnestly evaluated it obviously biases the needs of the employer rather than the entity that matters.)

harha_ 2y ago

I'm currently recovering from burnout and the trick of not caring just does not work for me. This is my 2nd burnout and even though I learned that trick among other things from the 1st, it just does not work because I think it's a problem that stems from my personality. I care too much about various things that are related to my work.

pdimitar 2y ago
Same, I am in my 40s and so far have never found a way to not care. I am simply that kind of person and I have screamed and raged against it many times, still couldn't change. If I stop caring I'll become somebody else entirely; it will profoundly change everything I do in every venue of life, intimate life / marriage included. I just can't see it ever changing. But, as people love to say, everyone eventually gets to their own level of incompetence. This is definitely mine. I want to be able to segment my not caring and I am trying various things; nothing so far works but some measures have netted very small results -- like being dead-tired and suffering from 3 separate heavy health conditions, for example. If that can be counted as "a measure that works", that is. :D
Aeolun 2y ago
I have the same issue, but I’ve found that the trick is for me work on things I care about, even if that’s not necessarily the main goal of the organisation. Just find things that have enough overlap that nobody in leadership can say you’re not working towards useful goals. I’m not sure how replicable it is in a different org though, and I’m not likely to leave to find out xD
BehindBlueEyes 2y ago
distancing oneself from work (not caring) is a symptom of burnout, symptoms are a coping mechanism but that doesn't mean they're a cure... sure a fever helps fight illness but a caugh might just spread it. Personnally, I can't not care either but i also don't think it is a solution. For me not caring actually makes things worse because it is disempowering.

agumonkey 2y ago

> The trick is to not care enough about your job to get hurt but not care so little that you could short-term be hurt. how to balance that with the fact that you wanted more than just waking up for a paycheck by working in this field ? being passive and bored (reminds me that bore-out exists too) is not how i envision a happy life

mihaaly 2y ago

It is so depriving to interview for new position the very same way with the very same narratives after three positions you don't really care about. Yes, I am a serial no-caring person now into three of my recent jobs after the initial months of inflated and intentional self blinding positivism pulled over my mind to numb it from fear of growing futileness. Previous two was left before even havin a new place, now I have children and it is so desperate economic reasoning stuck in a hopeless and unreliable situation that the demotivation is closing on unbearable poisoning my private life (this is what I want to show to my children?). I am trying to convince my wife (and in fact myself too) of working for myself instead. Different risky, but just different, not more. Staying is also risky. I am at the mercy of a disliked and faceless organization. People come and go, we were just aquired by an investor aiming at squeezing out more money, yes, not the product or activity is in the focus but pure money, the rest is secondary, whatever is fine as long the income grows, need to feed now the advisors and investors and lawyers and bankers in addition of the current organization, and in a shorten timeframe because there are clear goals about income for the next 5 years. About the income, the faith of the product is a secondary, indirect/dependent matter. People want their money back very soon, plus more. I can become an obstacle in any minute when they figure out they need no R&D for income in the next 5 years, just like with VMWare and Broadcom and similars. I find myself in a situation like shown in this The Economist article [1] with no hope finding better, as the others I am actively interviewing are already went through the same or going through the same currently: "Identify a mature business, ideally one that is critical for customers. Buy it at a decent price. Cut it to the bone by reducing the workforce, eliminating less lucrative products and slashing research-and-development budgets. Jack up prices for captive clients. Harvest the cash. Fork lots of it out to shareholders through dividends and share repurchases, which big tech tends to shun. Take what is left and repeat." Why try hard if I will end up in the same ditch not trying hard?.... [1] https://www.economist.com/business/2024/12/19/meet-the-most-ruthless-ceo-in-the-trillion-dollar-tech-club https://www.economist.com/business/2024/12/19/meet-the-most-...