7 ms·

Regulations Enabling 6 GHz Wi-Fi

178 points by teleforce 2y ago

throw0101d 2y ago
For a visual representation of the channels/frequencies, see perhaps: * https://www.wi-fi.org/beacon/chuck-lukaszewski/wi-fi-6e-the-details-you-need-to-know https://www.wi-fi.org/beacon/chuck-lukaszewski/wi-fi-6e-the-... * https://www.juniper.net/us/en/research-topics/what-is-wi-fi-6e.html https://www.juniper.net/us/en/research-topics/what-is-wi-fi-... * https://www.ekahau.com/blog/channel-planning-best-practices-for-better-wi-fi/ https://www.ekahau.com/blog/channel-planning-best-practices-... 5925-6425 MHz is UNII 5, and is the most available globally. 6425-7125 MHz is UNII 6, 7, and 8: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlicensed_National_Information_Infrastructure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlicensed_National_Informatio...
Kenji 2y ago
[dead]
AnarchismIsCool 2y ago
It's always amazing to me how reluctant everyone is to grant ISM bandwidth. If you watch a spectrum analyzer you'll immediately notice that the ISM bands are packed and licensed space is entirely empty. At this point with devices being both much more dynamic and much more spatially multiplexed (and more directional) I have a hard time accepting arguments that really anything from DC to daylight should be licensed at this point outside of a few very small niches (GPS and airband mostly). We should be gradually deprecating equipment that requires absolute band exclusion to operate because just slicing up spectrum is by far the least efficient way of utilizing a finite resource. It's also worth pointing out that we're about to lose about half of one of our ISM bands (915MHz, LoRa, Meshtastic, ELRS, various smart home protocols etc) due to the lovely folks at NextNav wanting dedicated bandwidth for a paywalled GPS alternative. It's by far the best ISM band in the US for long range unlicensed communications due to being in a sweet spot of path loss, penetration, and bandwidth.
- ggm 2y ago
  You don't buy exclusivity for emergency services? What if a local congestion event degrades signal to the extent things stop working? This also demands all of the volunteer fire and emergency and rural fire and emergency recapitalise their radio investment. I would worry the exact thing that causes this is mass widespread "get online and check on aunty jennie" flash mob effects when emergency comms is most needful. I am probably putting up some FUD argument here. But, I think this should be a contestable line of reasoning. I'd like to hear from some hams, or other spectrum users before I got with this. (I am neither, cell and wifi aside)
  - AnarchismIsCool 2y ago
    Was waiting for this response... It's a long game. Yeah, we can't just say "fuck it, everyone go nuts" tomorrow. There are satellite downlinks that cant be readily changed, equipment capex that needs to depreciate etc. What we should be doing is adding and expanding ISM space as aggressively as we reasonably can and refusing to issue new exclusive licenses without an extremely good reason (and probably exclusively for public/civil purposes).
    - ggm 2y ago
      This I can get behind.
    - danw1979 2y ago
      Do we really need to allow Industrial use of RF across the whole spectrum though? Maybe we need a new definition of public use at “reasonable EIRP” without the industrial heating and whatever other weird uses of RF are out there.
      - AnarchismIsCool 2y ago
        The caveat should be (as it's always been) only radiate as much as you actually need to, and not having/buying sufficient shielding is not an acceptable "need to" argument. Microwaves share spectrum with WiFi but unless something is horribly wrong turning on a microwave doesn't jam every wifi access point within a mile. I agree though, reasonable EIRP is something we need to talk about. For instance, there should probably be more of a logarithmic equation for calculating an EIRP alternative that allows more effective power in beam forming systems but to a sane limit. In other words, don't handicap people trying to be responsible with where they send signals but that doesn't mean you can build an absolute laser of an antenna array and start screaming at satellites coming over the hill behind your receiver.
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
Related discussion from 2020: Wi-Fi Alliance Brings Wi-Fi 6 into 6 GHz https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21965774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21965774
giantg2 2y ago
I'm turning into a luddite - why do we really need this? Just slightly faster transfers?
- tadfisher 2y ago
  Congestion, mostly. Really it's a problem at conventions or sports games where every human and probably each pet brings one or two WiFi transceivers. Best way to alleviate that is more bandwidth.
  - 1oooqooq 2y ago
    if we just build one more frequency band lane...
    - Vecr 2y ago
      Induced demand is good. People just complain about it with cars due to what they claim are excessive environmentally detrimental externalities.
      - stephen_g 2y ago
        Apart from the environmental externalities, the problem with induced demand and cars is that cars take up too much physical space on the road for the number of people they tend to carry, so induced demand in any reasonably populated area (like a city) will always produce excessive congestion, and you can basically never build enough lanes to fix that (especially because intersections are often a bigger problem). Whereas with more space-efficient transit, like trains, trams (streetcars) and buses, you can often increase capacity on existing lines or build more capacity for reasonable cost and space, so induced demand isn't as much a problem.
        Vecr 2y ago
        That's not bad though, by the preferences of the people driving the cars. I've done a couple very informal low sample count surveys, and as far as I can tell the result of pricing in the externalities and building what mass transit is realistic (not much, in certain places) would lead to at least a short-term reduction in satisfaction.
nemobius 2y ago
I’ve been on a project for 2+ years to support automatic frequency selection for this. I’m excited to start seeing so much chatter about it.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
praveen9920 2y ago
Going through their “economic advantage of 6GHz WiFi” document. It looks like there is a “fight” with telecom guys trying to license 6GHz for 5G and others fighting for it to be unlicensed. Interesting to see that countries are tilting towards unlicensing even with strong lobbying of telecoms
ElectRabbit 2y ago
FYI: Wifi-7 modems (some of them are AP-capable) are now available for around 15-30€. They support all bands (2, 5, 6) Have a look at the Mediatek (MT7925E) and Intel (BE200-BE202) cards. There also the more pricy Qualcomm QCNCM865. The Mediatek and Qualcomm also works with AMD mainboards. The Intel cards are not compatible with AMD mainboards as they are using a proprietary stuff. At leas the Mediatek works fine with Linux (currently running in Thumbleweed) and AMD.
- eth0up 2y ago
  Also in Tumbleweed, but a bit in Void and others... Can you confirm that the Mediatek, specifically (MT7925E), is supported in Linux? And if not too much to ask, anything by Atheros? Edit: Qualcomm= atheros, sorry
  - ElectRabbit 2y ago
    https://www.dm5tt.de/2024/10/17/Wifi-7-and-AMD/ https://www.dm5tt.de/2024/10/17/Wifi-7-and-AMD/ It needs to a M.2<->PCIe adapter card. Yes. Works.
    - eth0up 2y ago
      Thanks. My slots are M.2. The trick is getting those ridiculous NGFF/MHF4 antenna connectors to snap together without breaking.
- ksec 2y ago
  >Wifi-7 modems (some of them are AP-capable) are now available for around 15-30€ Just to add additional context, there are a whole loads of components from RF Filter to antenna itself, RAM, etc for an AP or Router. In case anyone got the wrong estimate of BOM cost. Ignoring any other R&D / NRE or Capex involved. And all that excludes the cost of software.
  - ElectRabbit 2y ago
    If you are using the naked modem chip of course. But by buying one of these m.2 cards this stuff is already done. Connect it to the PC and U.fl antenna and start playing around with them. Maybe I should have clarified that these mentioned chips are already places onto M.2 cards you can buy from Ali/Amazon&Co.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

178 points by teleforce 2y ago

For a visual representation of the channels/frequencies, see perhaps: * https://www.wi-fi.org/beacon/chuck-lukaszewski/wi-fi-6e-the-details-you-need-to-know https://www.wi-fi.org/beacon/chuck-lukaszewski/wi-fi-6e-the-... * https://www.juniper.net/us/en/research-topics/what-is-wi-fi-6e.html https://www.juniper.net/us/en/research-topics/what-is-wi-fi-... * https://www.ekahau.com/blog/channel-planning-best-practices-for-better-wi-fi/ https://www.ekahau.com/blog/channel-planning-best-practices-... 5925-6425 MHz is UNII 5, and is the most available globally. 6425-7125 MHz is UNII 6, 7, and 8: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlicensed_National_Information_Infrastructure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlicensed_National_Informatio...

Kenji 2y ago

[dead]

AnarchismIsCool 2y ago

It's always amazing to me how reluctant everyone is to grant ISM bandwidth. If you watch a spectrum analyzer you'll immediately notice that the ISM bands are packed and licensed space is entirely empty. At this point with devices being both much more dynamic and much more spatially multiplexed (and more directional) I have a hard time accepting arguments that really anything from DC to daylight should be licensed at this point outside of a few very small niches (GPS and airband mostly). We should be gradually deprecating equipment that requires absolute band exclusion to operate because just slicing up spectrum is by far the least efficient way of utilizing a finite resource. It's also worth pointing out that we're about to lose about half of one of our ISM bands (915MHz, LoRa, Meshtastic, ELRS, various smart home protocols etc) due to the lovely folks at NextNav wanting dedicated bandwidth for a paywalled GPS alternative. It's by far the best ISM band in the US for long range unlicensed communications due to being in a sweet spot of path loss, penetration, and bandwidth.

ggm 2y ago
You don't buy exclusivity for emergency services? What if a local congestion event degrades signal to the extent things stop working? This also demands all of the volunteer fire and emergency and rural fire and emergency recapitalise their radio investment. I would worry the exact thing that causes this is mass widespread "get online and check on aunty jennie" flash mob effects when emergency comms is most needful. I am probably putting up some FUD argument here. But, I think this should be a contestable line of reasoning. I'd like to hear from some hams, or other spectrum users before I got with this. (I am neither, cell and wifi aside)
- AnarchismIsCool 2y ago
  Was waiting for this response... It's a long game. Yeah, we can't just say "fuck it, everyone go nuts" tomorrow. There are satellite downlinks that cant be readily changed, equipment capex that needs to depreciate etc. What we should be doing is adding and expanding ISM space as aggressively as we reasonably can and refusing to issue new exclusive licenses without an extremely good reason (and probably exclusively for public/civil purposes).
  - ggm 2y ago
    This I can get behind.
  - danw1979 2y ago
    Do we really need to allow Industrial use of RF across the whole spectrum though? Maybe we need a new definition of public use at “reasonable EIRP” without the industrial heating and whatever other weird uses of RF are out there.
    - AnarchismIsCool 2y ago
      The caveat should be (as it's always been) only radiate as much as you actually need to, and not having/buying sufficient shielding is not an acceptable "need to" argument. Microwaves share spectrum with WiFi but unless something is horribly wrong turning on a microwave doesn't jam every wifi access point within a mile. I agree though, reasonable EIRP is something we need to talk about. For instance, there should probably be more of a logarithmic equation for calculating an EIRP alternative that allows more effective power in beam forming systems but to a sane limit. In other words, don't handicap people trying to be responsible with where they send signals but that doesn't mean you can build an absolute laser of an antenna array and start screaming at satellites coming over the hill behind your receiver.

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

Related discussion from 2020: Wi-Fi Alliance Brings Wi-Fi 6 into 6 GHz https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21965774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21965774

giantg2 2y ago

I'm turning into a luddite - why do we really need this? Just slightly faster transfers?

tadfisher 2y ago
Congestion, mostly. Really it's a problem at conventions or sports games where every human and probably each pet brings one or two WiFi transceivers. Best way to alleviate that is more bandwidth.
- 1oooqooq 2y ago
  if we just build one more frequency band lane...
  - Vecr 2y ago
    Induced demand is good. People just complain about it with cars due to what they claim are excessive environmentally detrimental externalities.
    - stephen_g 2y ago
      Apart from the environmental externalities, the problem with induced demand and cars is that cars take up too much physical space on the road for the number of people they tend to carry, so induced demand in any reasonably populated area (like a city) will always produce excessive congestion, and you can basically never build enough lanes to fix that (especially because intersections are often a bigger problem). Whereas with more space-efficient transit, like trains, trams (streetcars) and buses, you can often increase capacity on existing lines or build more capacity for reasonable cost and space, so induced demand isn't as much a problem.
      - Vecr 2y ago
        That's not bad though, by the preferences of the people driving the cars. I've done a couple very informal low sample count surveys, and as far as I can tell the result of pricing in the externalities and building what mass transit is realistic (not much, in certain places) would lead to at least a short-term reduction in satisfaction.

nemobius 2y ago

I’ve been on a project for 2+ years to support automatic frequency selection for this. I’m excited to start seeing so much chatter about it.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

praveen9920 2y ago

Going through their “economic advantage of 6GHz WiFi” document. It looks like there is a “fight” with telecom guys trying to license 6GHz for 5G and others fighting for it to be unlicensed. Interesting to see that countries are tilting towards unlicensing even with strong lobbying of telecoms

ElectRabbit 2y ago

FYI: Wifi-7 modems (some of them are AP-capable) are now available for around 15-30€. They support all bands (2, 5, 6) Have a look at the Mediatek (MT7925E) and Intel (BE200-BE202) cards. There also the more pricy Qualcomm QCNCM865. The Mediatek and Qualcomm also works with AMD mainboards. The Intel cards are not compatible with AMD mainboards as they are using a proprietary stuff. At leas the Mediatek works fine with Linux (currently running in Thumbleweed) and AMD.

eth0up 2y ago
Also in Tumbleweed, but a bit in Void and others... Can you confirm that the Mediatek, specifically (MT7925E), is supported in Linux? And if not too much to ask, anything by Atheros? Edit: Qualcomm= atheros, sorry
- ElectRabbit 2y ago
  https://www.dm5tt.de/2024/10/17/Wifi-7-and-AMD/ https://www.dm5tt.de/2024/10/17/Wifi-7-and-AMD/ It needs to a M.2<->PCIe adapter card. Yes. Works.
  - eth0up 2y ago
    Thanks. My slots are M.2. The trick is getting those ridiculous NGFF/MHF4 antenna connectors to snap together without breaking.
ksec 2y ago
>Wifi-7 modems (some of them are AP-capable) are now available for around 15-30€ Just to add additional context, there are a whole loads of components from RF Filter to antenna itself, RAM, etc for an AP or Router. In case anyone got the wrong estimate of BOM cost. Ignoring any other R&D / NRE or Capex involved. And all that excludes the cost of software.
- ElectRabbit 2y ago
  If you are using the naked modem chip of course. But by buying one of these m.2 cards this stuff is already done. Connect it to the PC and U.fl antenna and start playing around with them. Maybe I should have clarified that these mentioned chips are already places onto M.2 cards you can buy from Ali/Amazon&Co.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]