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I don’t understand the lack of interest by journalists. What more did Williams need to do the first time he reached out to garner interest? Does ProPublica over

I don’t understand the lack of interest by journalists. What more did Williams need to do the first time he reached out to garner interest? Does ProPublica overestimate the seriousness of the militia movement? I’d think based on J6 the journalists ignoring Williams’ communications should have paid attention.

zzzeek 2y ago
I dont think journalists really find J6 to be important at all. Even left leaning journalists pay lip service to it but shrugs, buncha white dudes blowing off steam I think is how "everyone" sees this. As evidence, look at the election we just had. It reminds me of how the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993. Oh, that was scary, well, whatever, the dudes in jail, shrugs. Because it failed to bring the building down. For me, I was like, holy crap people are trying to blow up the WTC arent they going to....keep trying? but that's just not how people think. Super scary thing that failed == ho hum.
- wat10000 2y ago
  Or, pertinent to the subject at hand, how the Oklahoma City bombing was tied to the right wing militia movement and they’re still mostly seen as, well, a bunch of white dudes blowing off steam like you said. In that case, it seems like people saw that they got the perpetrators and that’s that, not considering what sort of circumstances produced them and where it might go in the future. And WTC and OKC were (at least somewhat) successful attacks! J6 caused damage but failed. We’re really bad at taking failed attempts seriously.
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    A big factor in the OKC, J6, and militia movement and White nationalist violence more generally is that the law enforcement community in the US has very significant overlap with the militia and White nationalist movements, impacting how seriously they are treated by law enforcement, and how seriously they are treated by journalists who rely on experts from within the law enforcement community (both current officers and private experts that are the same people relied on as outside experts by law enforcement and are usually ex-law enforcement) for their understanding of the issues.
    - josh_frome 2y ago
      “Some of those that work forces…” indeed.
    - sitkack 2y ago
      If BLM had attempted what J6 actually did, it would have made Kent State look like a Simpson's episode.
      - LudwigNagasena 2y ago
        Seattle allowed BLM protesters to establish their own “autonomous zone” and ignored it until enough kids were killed.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > ignored it until enough kids were killed From overdoses, right? Sort of different from terrorism in many meaningful ways.
        lazyasciiart 2y ago
        No, shooting. I don’t think it was a meaningfully different rate than other weeks in Capitol Hill, but firefighters failing to render first aid certainly didn’t help that one kid who was dying a couple hundred yards from a fire station. (The crowd wouldn’t let a police car through, and it turns out the firefighters wouldn’t approach until the police were there and said it was safe).
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > firefighters failing to render first aid certainly didn’t help that one kid who was dying a couple hundred yards from a fire station Still not terrorism. Left-wing militias are a problem in some parts of the world. They aren’t in America. Our domestic terrorism comes almost exclusively from radical Islam and right-wing nutjobs. (Who, somewhat hilariously, see eye to eye on more than they realise.)
  - mnky9800n 2y ago
    didn't timothy mcveigh also say that it was specifically a retaliation for waco?
    - artistic_regard 2y ago
      [dead]
    - specialist 2y ago
      And Ruby Ridge too, IIRC.
      - mnky9800n 2y ago
        This is in no way a statement support of terrorism but if you simply look at the facts the government showed up at these people’s homes and started shooting. In Waco they killed children by burning them alive and their defense was they didn’t know filling the building with flammable gas would set it on fire. Yes the branch Davidians were stockpiling weapons but at that point they were, to my understanding, legally allowed to own and sell guns. These were tragedies created by the US government on their own citizens.
  - treis 2y ago
    I don't think these right wing militias are that much of a threat. They're mostly LARPers and have enough attachment to their groups to not do the radical violence. Historically the right wingers that have actually committed violence are the ones that can't even find belonging in the right wing militias.
    - dylan604 2y ago
      They're essentially the US' guerilla forces that we see in other countries that cause foreign forces operating in their land to get stuck in a quagmire. They may not be undefeatable, but they'll be able to put up a helluva show enough to make the opfor to question their commitment. Probably long enough to sway public opinion as well. Dismiss them at your own peril. The FBI did
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    They were also well planned and intentional. J6 seemed much more like spur-of-the-moment mob action, at least from my armchair.
    - x86_64Ubuntu 2y ago
      But it wasn't, I remember seeing people on Facebook talking about J6 before it happened. It's kind of weird to see the minimization of J6 in real time.
    - ericjmorey 2y ago
      I think your comment is a direct reflection of the lack of popular coverage and discussion of January 6th. It was planned for prior to the election as a contingency. There's clear and direct evidence of that fact and there's very little awareness of that fact.
      - tekknik 2y ago
        I think that your comment is a direct reflection of your desire to paint the opposing political side as dangerous in order to gain political favor and power. It’s still not going to work. When will the left learn that changing peoples mind by lying will not work?
        wat10000 2y ago
        What’s the lie? Groups like Oath Keepers planned it. It was not spontaneous. The only reason anyone thinks otherwise is because they were completely incompetent. But being bad at overthrowing the government doesn’t mean you didn’t try.
    - LPisGood 2y ago
      There were groups with guns and boats ready to resupply an insurgency.
      - dotancohen 2y ago
  - dylan604 2y ago
    After OKC, the FBI turned the eye of sauron upon the militias. Then 9/11 happened, and white guys in the woods were suddenly less scary than non-white guy and the eye of sauron was no longer looking at the white guys in the woods. > We’re really bad at taking failed attempts seriously. To that point, Osama bin Laden had multiple attempts attacking the WTC. They realized that it was going to take a lot more than a car bomb to take down those buildings and made improved plans from a car bomb. Which is just some of the data pointed to by those that are unbelieving that a truck bomb was the sole cause of OKC.
- stefantalpalaru 2y ago
  [dead]
- UncleOxidant 2y ago
  > As evidence, look at the election we just had. The amazing thing is how the right was able to essentially rewrite the history of Jan 6 over the last 4 years. Right after the incident even many Republican politicians in DC were calling for Trump's resignation and impeachment (or at least some resolution that would not allow him to run again). There was a huge amount of alarm in the immediate aftermath. But then the narrative about the events of that day slowly started to turn into "it was just a peaceful protest where a few bad apples got a bit out of hand" (that came right after the "it was antifa" stage which didn't last too long when it was clear that these folks were Trump supporters). Trump certainly minimized Jan 6 (to his benefit) and the rest of the GOP began to go along just as they've gone along with the idea that the 2020 election was "stolen" from Trump (and if they actually believe it was stolen then they can come to the conclusion that Jan 6 was justified as some of them do).
  - refurb 2y ago
    You’re mistaking genuine concern with political hay making. Of course the Democrats call it an insurrection - that’s what their base wants to hear and benefits them at the polls. But look at what they do in totality - after calling him Hitler the Democratic leadership was wishing Trump a speedy recovery after the assignation attempt. You don’t wish Hitler a “speedy recovery”. It’s mostly political theatre. J6 was a riot, but the republic was not able to topple.
    - Qwertious 2y ago
      >Of course the Democrats call it an insurrection They might have incentive, but that's irrelevant to whether it was an insurrection. And it was, it was textbook. https://acoup.blog/2021/01/15/miscellanea-insurrections-ancient-and-modern-and-also-meet-the-academicats/ https://acoup.blog/2021/01/15/miscellanea-insurrections-anci... >No ancient Greek would have had any trouble in understanding what happened on the 6th or that it was a serious attempt (albeit an incompetent one) to seize power. Having a leader or a political faction move with a mob (often armed, but not always so) to try to disperse the normal civic assemblies of a Greek polis and occupy their normal meeting place was a standard maneuver to try to seize power during stasis. As Dr. Roel Konijnendijk, an ancient Greek history specialist, noted in this excellent discussion on the r/AskHistorians reddit (where he posts as Iphikrates), “In the Greek world, most attempts to seize power by force tended to take the same form: the seditious party would contrive an opportunity to gather in arms while their opponents were unarmed and off-guard, and seize control of all public spaces.” (The link author has a PhD in ancient history) (the "acoup" name is incidental, it stands for A Collection Of Unmitigated Pedantries) And while yes, the Dems have flip-flopped between calling Trump Hitler and wishing him a speedy recovery, that's because they're spineless slaves to proceduralism who won't break decorum if the fate of US's democracy depends on it.
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
It’s sort of alluded to but I suspect journalists get a whole lot of false tips from various mentally unhealthy folk, which perhaps appear much like Williams’ in this story.
- wat10000 2y ago
  Yeah, being contacted by someone who’s on a bespoke undercover mission in right-wing militias is huge. Being contacted by someone who’s says they are is another matter.
  - sitkack 2y ago
    We don't know how the initial attempts at contact were presented. I can see it being extremely difficult to get someones attention. If how seemingly technical people ask for assistance on net forums is any indication, unless has someone has the skill of a reporter in presenting information, a string of signal messages with, "contact me, I have important information on XYZ" isn't going to cut it.
  - SilasX 2y ago
    Exactly. That’s precisely the angle someone would use if they were trying to hoax or embarrass your publication.
Applejinx 2y ago
He might have been reaching out to journalists working for outlets that run cover for this militia movement. Based on J6 and subsequent developments in the justice system, there are media outlets cooperating with those authorities that downplay/join the militia movement. This is an important side-light on the concept that media sources are 'grifting' and only interested in what will make them money. It's surprisingly common for media sources to turn away from stories that could be sensational and give them money, but at the expense of a cause (such as these paramilitaries) which someone at the media source supports. In that case, the person at the media source making decisions will understand that the story is sensational and attention-getting, but will quash it because to run the story would be hurting the paramilitaries…
cavisne 2y ago
Reading the article he found nothing right?
- dole 2y ago
  He found and could verify militia connections between various law enforcement, local and state government officials.
  - cavisne 2y ago
    The report identified (but didn't directly name) 1 sheriff. Assuming it’s the current sheriff, a quick google of his background + the fact that he "facilitated" the militia members FBI interview gives a pretty strong hint why mainstream media would not pick up this story.
  - int_19h 2y ago
    I've been involved with a local militia for several years, and they absolutely do have strong connections with law enforcement (and, to a lesser extent, military) - some cops are members outright, others are not formally affiliated but provide support, training etc. The cops I've seen in those meetings talking about how the communities they are policing are "subhuman animals" that "just need a bullet" are still in Seattle PD, as well. They also had connections with some state legislature members, such as Matt Shea.
  - hattmall 2y ago
    Ok, but so what though? Are they actively committing crimes or doing something crazy with regard to the militia? I mean we have tons of evidence of cops doing crazy shit in uniform and on the record and nothing happens.
- EasyMark 2y ago
  If he does follow up with releasing incriminating files then that's not nothing. We'll see. I have hopes that he wasn't lying, I like nothing more than seeing traitors and treasonous cowards exposed to the light. I try to always stay centered and skeptical, but it would be a great reveal to expose these militia cowards skulking around the country.
ADeerAppeared 2y ago
Besides the things other comments mentioned: There is a longstanding sentiment that "It can't happen here". The wider public in America more or less blocks out the risks involved. "They're not actually going to blow up the power grid." Hell, just look at the tech industry. Endless whining about not needing to be regulated, and what have they done? Built an enormous surveilance machine, lead by executives who preemptively kowtow to any authoritarian leader. Europe's attempt to regulate this is still angrily opposed by heaps, even on this very site.
- toss1 2y ago
  Yup Normalcy bias — it's an absolute killer. The same cognitive failure that has people in a fire thinking it's "just part of the show", or "just something in the kitchen", until it is too late, and panic overtakes everyone. I've never seen a story of a fire where someone in the situation said "I wasn't sure what was going on, but it didn't seem good so I left early, I'm alive because I did!". Normalcy bias can kill us all if we aren't careful.
- refulgentis 2y ago
  Thanks for writing this: things are quite askew right now for various reasons, and it was unexpectedly affirming to hear someone say it loud. Until now I would have said this is an extreme minority view, even though it's quite obvious and aligns with the core values I've seen on this site over the last 15 years, and thus presumed were tech in general's view. Maybe I just need to get off X, the Everything App™, 90% of my news consumption and commentary is through there.
  - rcruzeiro 2y ago
    Come to Bluesky. It’s not perfect, but neither was twitter 10 year ago. Bluesky feels a bit like that.
    - jajko 2y ago
      As somebody who successfully avoided twitter stuff my whole life - whats the lure of this? Following some folks reading some random brainfarts is not how I imagine spending my time, and that's all I can see on this. Maybe I have just different type of personality than target audience. Or is it so addictive like social networks seem to be?
jibe 2y ago
Because as low as most journalist’s standard are, Williams is below that low standard. Though good enough for Pro Publica. He is an erratic, ex-con, who seems to be mentally unstable. Did you believe the puppy story?
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
  If the journalist really verified the audio recordings I believe it. Faking so many hours of audio from multiple people is still difficult. I mean, you could do it with AI voices, but I doubt that's the case
- EasyMark 2y ago
  Pro Publica is probably the most outstanding investigative journalist collective in the USA currently, unafraid to step on MAGA and militia toes despite their constant threats against journalistic freedom.
  - refurb 2y ago
    I see people proclaim the quality of Propublica journalism and thus actually read through a number of their major exposes. I wasn’t impressed. They do the same thing the major news outlets do - craft a narrative then selectively use findings to support it. Their expose on tax records is a good example - they calculated billionaires tax rates based not on income (as everyone thinks of) but rather total wealth to arrive at shockingly small numbers (intentionally). Maybe they do a better job of in depth articles but the overall quality isn’t that impressive.
timewizard 2y ago
> the journalists ignoring Williams’ communications It's because just accepting a prepackaged story like this from a single source would completely fail to meet the standards of journalism.
- SturgeonsLaw 2y ago
  Journalism has standards?
nostromo 2y ago
Because his story barely passes the sniff test. He just up and joined a bunch of radical militias that he strongly disagrees with? I mean... maybe. But you'd of course be very suspicious of everything he says and his motives for coming forward.
- 985310653 2y ago
  The article's author was suspicious and skeptical too. That's why he read through the chat logs and audio recordings, and also interviewed former friends and militia members to corroborate the story. The article also explicitly calls out which of Williams' claims were uncorroborated or contradicted. Genuinely asking: what other evidence are you looking for?
  - nopromisessir 2y ago
    Logging my doubt that the target of your comment actually read the entirety of the article.
- lgbrandon 2y ago
  I think he actually agreed with it. Then had a change of heart or they pissed him off. I would go with the latter. Myself. Plus really have to be careful doing solo stuff like this. Alot of actual bad guys would say. See I was telling a journalist etc. I am super under cover!
Animats 2y ago
> Does ProPublica overestimate the seriousness of the militia movement? Unclear. Depends on how supportive of it Trump is. He might legitimize it by pardoning the Jan. 6 attackers. Many of them thought they were acting on Trump's orders, after all. There was one platoon-sized Proud Boys unit on Jan. 6th that showed military organization and discipline. The rest were just a mob. Having a private army of goons can be useful. That's what the SA was in the Nazi era. The SA was a big organization, 20x the size of the German army at peak. Eventually, it was put down once Hitler was firmly in power. See "Night of the Long Knives".[1] Other countries have been through this. Sometimes the goons ended up in charge, or at least as a large faction to be kept happy. This is often seen after internal unrest that yields a large, restless, armed group. Germany got there by losing WWI, but not being crushed. Haiti is a classic example. Afghanistan seems to have gone down this road - all those former "fighters" have to be fed and kept busy. The closest the US came was the "Bonus Army" camped out on the Mall after WWI, demanding a bonus for veterans.[2] The Bonus Army had 17,000 veteran soldiers, and some political and police support. Eventually they were forcibly dispersed. US militias don't match any of those classic situations. They're mostly wannabees. If you encounter militia types, ask them if all their members use the same ammo. If not, they're a rabble, not an army. Do we get to see the actual documents the original author talks about? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army
- UncleOxidant 2y ago
  > US militias don't match any of those classic situations. They're mostly wannabees. If you encounter militia types, ask them if all their members use the same ammo. If not, they're a rabble, not an army. Sure, but there's plenty of opportunity for asymmetric warfare. Several power stations have been attacked in various parts of the US over the last few years. They could be probing the power system for vulnerabilities (and there are plenty of those). Also, look at how lowish-cost drones are coming to dominate the Ukraine war.
- specialist 2y ago
  Have you read the Congressional report on Jan 6th?
specialist 2y ago
The job of corporate media is to preserve the establishment, to perpetuate the status quo. Sometimes, some token investigative journalism is allowed. (So long as those revelations do not challenge the status quo, natch.) Maintaining the charade of being the Forth Estate. Less so over time, as the "infotainment" biz model pioneered by USA Today transformed the industry. What kids today would call "enshitification." FWIW, Propublica is a member of the so-called Fifth Estate, explaining why they can do what actual journalism.
hattmall 2y ago
Because it's just not interesting. He didn't find out anything exciting and basically nothing crazy happened. Its incredibly easy to join these organizations. Just show up. They aren't doing much of anything. There's no shortage of street gangs, kill rappers, cartels,ethnic crime families, ransomware groups, terrorist etc that are actively killing people or committing wide scale crimes. Go join them and you could have a compelling story. Join the Nuwabian Moors and get to work on infiltrating the SuperMax. Even corny ass biker gangs with their name on their "cut" occasionally get in shoot outs and have more interesting things going on then what is basically a middle aged version of the boy scouts.

zzzeek 2y ago

I dont think journalists really find J6 to be important at all. Even left leaning journalists pay lip service to it but shrugs, buncha white dudes blowing off steam I think is how "everyone" sees this. As evidence, look at the election we just had. It reminds me of how the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993. Oh, that was scary, well, whatever, the dudes in jail, shrugs. Because it failed to bring the building down. For me, I was like, holy crap people are trying to blow up the WTC arent they going to....keep trying? but that's just not how people think. Super scary thing that failed == ho hum.

wat10000 2y ago
Or, pertinent to the subject at hand, how the Oklahoma City bombing was tied to the right wing militia movement and they’re still mostly seen as, well, a bunch of white dudes blowing off steam like you said. In that case, it seems like people saw that they got the perpetrators and that’s that, not considering what sort of circumstances produced them and where it might go in the future. And WTC and OKC were (at least somewhat) successful attacks! J6 caused damage but failed. We’re really bad at taking failed attempts seriously.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  A big factor in the OKC, J6, and militia movement and White nationalist violence more generally is that the law enforcement community in the US has very significant overlap with the militia and White nationalist movements, impacting how seriously they are treated by law enforcement, and how seriously they are treated by journalists who rely on experts from within the law enforcement community (both current officers and private experts that are the same people relied on as outside experts by law enforcement and are usually ex-law enforcement) for their understanding of the issues.
  - josh_frome 2y ago
    “Some of those that work forces…” indeed.
  - sitkack 2y ago
    If BLM had attempted what J6 actually did, it would have made Kent State look like a Simpson's episode.
    - LudwigNagasena 2y ago
      Seattle allowed BLM protesters to establish their own “autonomous zone” and ignored it until enough kids were killed.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > ignored it until enough kids were killed From overdoses, right? Sort of different from terrorism in many meaningful ways.
        lazyasciiart 2y ago
        No, shooting. I don’t think it was a meaningfully different rate than other weeks in Capitol Hill, but firefighters failing to render first aid certainly didn’t help that one kid who was dying a couple hundred yards from a fire station. (The crowd wouldn’t let a police car through, and it turns out the firefighters wouldn’t approach until the police were there and said it was safe).
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > firefighters failing to render first aid certainly didn’t help that one kid who was dying a couple hundred yards from a fire station Still not terrorism. Left-wing militias are a problem in some parts of the world. They aren’t in America. Our domestic terrorism comes almost exclusively from radical Islam and right-wing nutjobs. (Who, somewhat hilariously, see eye to eye on more than they realise.)
- mnky9800n 2y ago
  didn't timothy mcveigh also say that it was specifically a retaliation for waco?
  - artistic_regard 2y ago
    [dead]
  - specialist 2y ago
    And Ruby Ridge too, IIRC.
    - mnky9800n 2y ago
      This is in no way a statement support of terrorism but if you simply look at the facts the government showed up at these people’s homes and started shooting. In Waco they killed children by burning them alive and their defense was they didn’t know filling the building with flammable gas would set it on fire. Yes the branch Davidians were stockpiling weapons but at that point they were, to my understanding, legally allowed to own and sell guns. These were tragedies created by the US government on their own citizens.
- treis 2y ago
  I don't think these right wing militias are that much of a threat. They're mostly LARPers and have enough attachment to their groups to not do the radical violence. Historically the right wingers that have actually committed violence are the ones that can't even find belonging in the right wing militias.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    They're essentially the US' guerilla forces that we see in other countries that cause foreign forces operating in their land to get stuck in a quagmire. They may not be undefeatable, but they'll be able to put up a helluva show enough to make the opfor to question their commitment. Probably long enough to sway public opinion as well. Dismiss them at your own peril. The FBI did
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  They were also well planned and intentional. J6 seemed much more like spur-of-the-moment mob action, at least from my armchair.
  - x86_64Ubuntu 2y ago
    But it wasn't, I remember seeing people on Facebook talking about J6 before it happened. It's kind of weird to see the minimization of J6 in real time.
  - ericjmorey 2y ago
    I think your comment is a direct reflection of the lack of popular coverage and discussion of January 6th. It was planned for prior to the election as a contingency. There's clear and direct evidence of that fact and there's very little awareness of that fact.
    - tekknik 2y ago
      I think that your comment is a direct reflection of your desire to paint the opposing political side as dangerous in order to gain political favor and power. It’s still not going to work. When will the left learn that changing peoples mind by lying will not work?
      - wat10000 2y ago
        What’s the lie? Groups like Oath Keepers planned it. It was not spontaneous. The only reason anyone thinks otherwise is because they were completely incompetent. But being bad at overthrowing the government doesn’t mean you didn’t try.
  - LPisGood 2y ago
    There were groups with guns and boats ready to resupply an insurgency.
    - dotancohen 2y ago
- dylan604 2y ago
  After OKC, the FBI turned the eye of sauron upon the militias. Then 9/11 happened, and white guys in the woods were suddenly less scary than non-white guy and the eye of sauron was no longer looking at the white guys in the woods. > We’re really bad at taking failed attempts seriously. To that point, Osama bin Laden had multiple attempts attacking the WTC. They realized that it was going to take a lot more than a car bomb to take down those buildings and made improved plans from a car bomb. Which is just some of the data pointed to by those that are unbelieving that a truck bomb was the sole cause of OKC.
stefantalpalaru 2y ago
[dead]
UncleOxidant 2y ago
> As evidence, look at the election we just had. The amazing thing is how the right was able to essentially rewrite the history of Jan 6 over the last 4 years. Right after the incident even many Republican politicians in DC were calling for Trump's resignation and impeachment (or at least some resolution that would not allow him to run again). There was a huge amount of alarm in the immediate aftermath. But then the narrative about the events of that day slowly started to turn into "it was just a peaceful protest where a few bad apples got a bit out of hand" (that came right after the "it was antifa" stage which didn't last too long when it was clear that these folks were Trump supporters). Trump certainly minimized Jan 6 (to his benefit) and the rest of the GOP began to go along just as they've gone along with the idea that the 2020 election was "stolen" from Trump (and if they actually believe it was stolen then they can come to the conclusion that Jan 6 was justified as some of them do).
- refurb 2y ago
  You’re mistaking genuine concern with political hay making. Of course the Democrats call it an insurrection - that’s what their base wants to hear and benefits them at the polls. But look at what they do in totality - after calling him Hitler the Democratic leadership was wishing Trump a speedy recovery after the assignation attempt. You don’t wish Hitler a “speedy recovery”. It’s mostly political theatre. J6 was a riot, but the republic was not able to topple.
  - Qwertious 2y ago
    >Of course the Democrats call it an insurrection They might have incentive, but that's irrelevant to whether it was an insurrection. And it was, it was textbook. https://acoup.blog/2021/01/15/miscellanea-insurrections-ancient-and-modern-and-also-meet-the-academicats/ https://acoup.blog/2021/01/15/miscellanea-insurrections-anci... >No ancient Greek would have had any trouble in understanding what happened on the 6th or that it was a serious attempt (albeit an incompetent one) to seize power. Having a leader or a political faction move with a mob (often armed, but not always so) to try to disperse the normal civic assemblies of a Greek polis and occupy their normal meeting place was a standard maneuver to try to seize power during stasis. As Dr. Roel Konijnendijk, an ancient Greek history specialist, noted in this excellent discussion on the r/AskHistorians reddit (where he posts as Iphikrates), “In the Greek world, most attempts to seize power by force tended to take the same form: the seditious party would contrive an opportunity to gather in arms while their opponents were unarmed and off-guard, and seize control of all public spaces.” (The link author has a PhD in ancient history) (the "acoup" name is incidental, it stands for A Collection Of Unmitigated Pedantries) And while yes, the Dems have flip-flopped between calling Trump Hitler and wishing him a speedy recovery, that's because they're spineless slaves to proceduralism who won't break decorum if the fate of US's democracy depends on it.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago

It’s sort of alluded to but I suspect journalists get a whole lot of false tips from various mentally unhealthy folk, which perhaps appear much like Williams’ in this story.

wat10000 2y ago
Yeah, being contacted by someone who’s on a bespoke undercover mission in right-wing militias is huge. Being contacted by someone who’s says they are is another matter.
- sitkack 2y ago
  We don't know how the initial attempts at contact were presented. I can see it being extremely difficult to get someones attention. If how seemingly technical people ask for assistance on net forums is any indication, unless has someone has the skill of a reporter in presenting information, a string of signal messages with, "contact me, I have important information on XYZ" isn't going to cut it.
- SilasX 2y ago
  Exactly. That’s precisely the angle someone would use if they were trying to hoax or embarrass your publication.

Applejinx 2y ago

He might have been reaching out to journalists working for outlets that run cover for this militia movement. Based on J6 and subsequent developments in the justice system, there are media outlets cooperating with those authorities that downplay/join the militia movement. This is an important side-light on the concept that media sources are 'grifting' and only interested in what will make them money. It's surprisingly common for media sources to turn away from stories that could be sensational and give them money, but at the expense of a cause (such as these paramilitaries) which someone at the media source supports. In that case, the person at the media source making decisions will understand that the story is sensational and attention-getting, but will quash it because to run the story would be hurting the paramilitaries…

cavisne 2y ago

Reading the article he found nothing right?

dole 2y ago
He found and could verify militia connections between various law enforcement, local and state government officials.
- cavisne 2y ago
  The report identified (but didn't directly name) 1 sheriff. Assuming it’s the current sheriff, a quick google of his background + the fact that he "facilitated" the militia members FBI interview gives a pretty strong hint why mainstream media would not pick up this story.
- int_19h 2y ago
  I've been involved with a local militia for several years, and they absolutely do have strong connections with law enforcement (and, to a lesser extent, military) - some cops are members outright, others are not formally affiliated but provide support, training etc. The cops I've seen in those meetings talking about how the communities they are policing are "subhuman animals" that "just need a bullet" are still in Seattle PD, as well. They also had connections with some state legislature members, such as Matt Shea.
- hattmall 2y ago
  Ok, but so what though? Are they actively committing crimes or doing something crazy with regard to the militia? I mean we have tons of evidence of cops doing crazy shit in uniform and on the record and nothing happens.
EasyMark 2y ago
If he does follow up with releasing incriminating files then that's not nothing. We'll see. I have hopes that he wasn't lying, I like nothing more than seeing traitors and treasonous cowards exposed to the light. I try to always stay centered and skeptical, but it would be a great reveal to expose these militia cowards skulking around the country.

ADeerAppeared 2y ago

Besides the things other comments mentioned: There is a longstanding sentiment that "It can't happen here". The wider public in America more or less blocks out the risks involved. "They're not actually going to blow up the power grid." Hell, just look at the tech industry. Endless whining about not needing to be regulated, and what have they done? Built an enormous surveilance machine, lead by executives who preemptively kowtow to any authoritarian leader. Europe's attempt to regulate this is still angrily opposed by heaps, even on this very site.

toss1 2y ago
Yup Normalcy bias — it's an absolute killer. The same cognitive failure that has people in a fire thinking it's "just part of the show", or "just something in the kitchen", until it is too late, and panic overtakes everyone. I've never seen a story of a fire where someone in the situation said "I wasn't sure what was going on, but it didn't seem good so I left early, I'm alive because I did!". Normalcy bias can kill us all if we aren't careful.
refulgentis 2y ago
Thanks for writing this: things are quite askew right now for various reasons, and it was unexpectedly affirming to hear someone say it loud. Until now I would have said this is an extreme minority view, even though it's quite obvious and aligns with the core values I've seen on this site over the last 15 years, and thus presumed were tech in general's view. Maybe I just need to get off X, the Everything App™, 90% of my news consumption and commentary is through there.
- rcruzeiro 2y ago
  Come to Bluesky. It’s not perfect, but neither was twitter 10 year ago. Bluesky feels a bit like that.
  - jajko 2y ago
    As somebody who successfully avoided twitter stuff my whole life - whats the lure of this? Following some folks reading some random brainfarts is not how I imagine spending my time, and that's all I can see on this. Maybe I have just different type of personality than target audience. Or is it so addictive like social networks seem to be?

jibe 2y ago

Because as low as most journalist’s standard are, Williams is below that low standard. Though good enough for Pro Publica. He is an erratic, ex-con, who seems to be mentally unstable. Did you believe the puppy story?

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
If the journalist really verified the audio recordings I believe it. Faking so many hours of audio from multiple people is still difficult. I mean, you could do it with AI voices, but I doubt that's the case
EasyMark 2y ago
Pro Publica is probably the most outstanding investigative journalist collective in the USA currently, unafraid to step on MAGA and militia toes despite their constant threats against journalistic freedom.
- refurb 2y ago
  I see people proclaim the quality of Propublica journalism and thus actually read through a number of their major exposes. I wasn’t impressed. They do the same thing the major news outlets do - craft a narrative then selectively use findings to support it. Their expose on tax records is a good example - they calculated billionaires tax rates based not on income (as everyone thinks of) but rather total wealth to arrive at shockingly small numbers (intentionally). Maybe they do a better job of in depth articles but the overall quality isn’t that impressive.

timewizard 2y ago

> the journalists ignoring Williams’ communications It's because just accepting a prepackaged story like this from a single source would completely fail to meet the standards of journalism.

SturgeonsLaw 2y ago
Journalism has standards?

nostromo 2y ago

Because his story barely passes the sniff test. He just up and joined a bunch of radical militias that he strongly disagrees with? I mean... maybe. But you'd of course be very suspicious of everything he says and his motives for coming forward.

985310653 2y ago
The article's author was suspicious and skeptical too. That's why he read through the chat logs and audio recordings, and also interviewed former friends and militia members to corroborate the story. The article also explicitly calls out which of Williams' claims were uncorroborated or contradicted. Genuinely asking: what other evidence are you looking for?
- nopromisessir 2y ago
  Logging my doubt that the target of your comment actually read the entirety of the article.
lgbrandon 2y ago
I think he actually agreed with it. Then had a change of heart or they pissed him off. I would go with the latter. Myself. Plus really have to be careful doing solo stuff like this. Alot of actual bad guys would say. See I was telling a journalist etc. I am super under cover!

Animats 2y ago

> Does ProPublica overestimate the seriousness of the militia movement? Unclear. Depends on how supportive of it Trump is. He might legitimize it by pardoning the Jan. 6 attackers. Many of them thought they were acting on Trump's orders, after all. There was one platoon-sized Proud Boys unit on Jan. 6th that showed military organization and discipline. The rest were just a mob. Having a private army of goons can be useful. That's what the SA was in the Nazi era. The SA was a big organization, 20x the size of the German army at peak. Eventually, it was put down once Hitler was firmly in power. See "Night of the Long Knives".[1] Other countries have been through this. Sometimes the goons ended up in charge, or at least as a large faction to be kept happy. This is often seen after internal unrest that yields a large, restless, armed group. Germany got there by losing WWI, but not being crushed. Haiti is a classic example. Afghanistan seems to have gone down this road - all those former "fighters" have to be fed and kept busy. The closest the US came was the "Bonus Army" camped out on the Mall after WWI, demanding a bonus for veterans.[2] The Bonus Army had 17,000 veteran soldiers, and some political and police support. Eventually they were forcibly dispersed. US militias don't match any of those classic situations. They're mostly wannabees. If you encounter militia types, ask them if all their members use the same ammo. If not, they're a rabble, not an army. Do we get to see the actual documents the original author talks about? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

UncleOxidant 2y ago
> US militias don't match any of those classic situations. They're mostly wannabees. If you encounter militia types, ask them if all their members use the same ammo. If not, they're a rabble, not an army. Sure, but there's plenty of opportunity for asymmetric warfare. Several power stations have been attacked in various parts of the US over the last few years. They could be probing the power system for vulnerabilities (and there are plenty of those). Also, look at how lowish-cost drones are coming to dominate the Ukraine war.
specialist 2y ago
Have you read the Congressional report on Jan 6th?

specialist 2y ago

The job of corporate media is to preserve the establishment, to perpetuate the status quo. Sometimes, some token investigative journalism is allowed. (So long as those revelations do not challenge the status quo, natch.) Maintaining the charade of being the Forth Estate. Less so over time, as the "infotainment" biz model pioneered by USA Today transformed the industry. What kids today would call "enshitification." FWIW, Propublica is a member of the so-called Fifth Estate, explaining why they can do what actual journalism.

hattmall 2y ago

Because it's just not interesting. He didn't find out anything exciting and basically nothing crazy happened. Its incredibly easy to join these organizations. Just show up. They aren't doing much of anything. There's no shortage of street gangs, kill rappers, cartels,ethnic crime families, ransomware groups, terrorist etc that are actively killing people or committing wide scale crimes. Go join them and you could have a compelling story. Join the Nuwabian Moors and get to work on infiltrating the SuperMax. Even corny ass biker gangs with their name on their "cut" occasionally get in shoot outs and have more interesting things going on then what is basically a middle aged version of the boy scouts.