5 ms·

Very cool. But is this allowed to drive on public roads in Sweden? I would have assumed that swedish laws are very restrictive to these kinds of DIY modificatio

Very cool. But is this allowed to drive on public roads in Sweden? I would have assumed that swedish laws are very restrictive to these kinds of DIY modifications. Amazing if it is allowed!

bgnn 2y ago
Definitely not allowed. The route they are taking requies the car to be road legal. These modifications make it definitely illegal on public roads on Sweden and Finland. It's often not enough to pass MOT (which this car wouldn't in the Netherlands, where it seems to be registered at), you need to get type approval to make it road legal. Dutch government has a nice English page about it: https://www.government.nl/topics/general-periodic-inspection-apk/applying-for-individual-vehicle-approval https://www.government.nl/topics/general-periodic-inspection...
- amelius 2y ago
  I hope they don't require a crash test ...
  - anticensor 2y ago
    Individual approval does not require destructive crash testing.
    - amelius 2y ago
      Great! :)
- tpm 2y ago
  Individual approval, not type approval, at least in most of the EU. Type approval is for manufacturers.
  - CalRobert 2y ago
    The same approval used to get thousands of otherwise illegal huge American trucks like Dodge Rams on Dutch roads, incidentally.
    - tpm 2y ago
      I only understand this topic a bit because I write software for authorities that do vehicle registrations and in some cases individual approvals (type approvals are done by others) in an EU country. And my takeaway from contact with them is that they have a huge leeway in individual approvals, so I would put the blame squarely on them, and the solution would be to legislate that away (ban those ind. approvals that are obviously circumventing the usual road vehicle restrictions incl. size, noise, pedestrian safety etc).
  - bgnn 2y ago
    my mistake. it's mentioned as individual approval in the link too.
spamatica 2y ago
To me it sounds extremely unlikely a car with such heavy modifications would be allowed on swedish (or finnish) public roads. Very cool project though!
lwde 2y ago
The simpel solution is to register in Poland, at least here in Germany that's the normal way for ICE to EV conversions.
- anticensor 2y ago
  Doesn't Germany have any EV conversion shops that has supplemental type approved kits?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
kristjank 2y ago
Most countries in the EU are pretty fascist concerning vehicle modifications. So it probably falls on the Pulp fiction end of the spectrum "It's legal but it ain't 100% legal."
- bboygravity 2y ago
  That's why it was mind blowing for me (Europoor) to see hot rods and things like that on public roads in the US. There truly is more freedom in the US than there is in Europe in that context.
  - morsch 2y ago
    Land of the free, home of the noise pollution
    - bigfudge 2y ago
      And pedestrian fatalaities. Although to be fair the autobahn is more fun than the highway.
  - sandworm101 2y ago
    Hotrods are dissappearing quickly. They cost too much. They are a pain to insure and have very low resale potential. As the culture changes, cars are moving from personal expressions to comodified fashion statements. It is rare now to even see a repaint driving on the road, let alone major engine mods. Hotrods are now just expensive weekend toys alongside boats. The market for RV mods probably now double the north american market for car mods.
    - more_corn 2y ago
      Not sure where you’re getting your information. There is a huge market for classic cars. Ever heard of Concours? Most of that crowd like to keep them stock, but there are tons of sub-genres like drift kids and Stance nation to name a few weird ones. Hotrodding is alive and well. There are car shows in most major us cities featuring hundreds of tricked out, restored and modified cars. The classic car market regularly appreciates. Just try to find an Alpha for a good price, or graph the price of a 1970 911 over the past 30 years. Also you can insure a classic for cheap since they see less road time, are garaged and generally well cared for. (see Hagerty) As for getting hotrods and restored classics on the road. California has half a dozen classic car rallies where roadworthy classics get out on the road for a couple days. I assure you the culture is alive and well.
sesvsesv 2y ago
You are correct that it probably won't be allowed. But your assumption that Sweden is restrictive isn't. I see that you live in Stockholm, so maybe you already know this, or you haven't spent much time outside the city in recent years. Almost every medium and small city in Sweden now features 16 to 17-year-olds driving old cars electronically or mechanically converted to only run at 30 kph (~20mph) without requiring a proper driver's license, adequate noise reduction, exhaust system and until recently not even winter tires or seatbelt. Making roads slow and dangerous, and the local environment much worse for everyone else. Now I don't expect this to be well-received because of "cool hack" but it is truly a major issue. Other issues like the high housing costs, bad healthcare, lacking infrastructure, mediocre education and a short-sighted population are all hard to solve. But this issue is clearly a priority. Swedish voters and politicians are prioritizing this over providing a good quality of life at a decent cost to enable education, research and knowledge based businesses. The result as a whole is that almost anyone who can is moving from these cities to bigger cities that don't have these problems, but are also so expensive that engaging in activates with high growth potential isn't viable. With grassroot hacking, small- and medium-sized business and major growth startup ending up being a fraction of what they have been and even more so should have been now.
- Tempest1981 2y ago
  > features 16 to 17-year-olds driving old cars ... converted to only run at 30 kph I had to search to see what you were referring to: https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230320-sweden-s-teens-drive-porsches-and-bmws-no-licence-needed https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230320-sweden-s-teen...
  - sesvsesv 2y ago
    As I understand it some of the cars are newer cars electrically modified (usually the previous family car, often a station wagon). Those are mostly wasteful by driving at slow speed with only two seats and no storage (which are also rules to be able to convert them). These can be converted back to a normal car when the driver turns 18 and gets a proper driver's license. But it is also possible to disable the electronic limits. Other cars are pemanantly converted much older cars and sold as such. These are the ones that are also bad cars without the regulation affecting a normal car. Edit: Someone infamously converted and registered a heavy truck this way. Legal to drive as a 15-year-old with a moped license. https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/eddie-15-har-en-lastbil-som-a-traktor-overkligt/ https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/eddie-15-har-en-lastbil-som...
breckenedge 2y ago
It’s carbage, so if it gets caught, impounded and destroyed, I’m sure that’s all part of the fun of the experience.
- jeroenhd 2y ago
  That's great until the self-steering mechanism drives into a pedestrian or gets the driver into the hospital. Insurance sure isn't going to pay out and even if it does, no amount of money can undo injuries. These rules aren't in place to annoy people who have fun with cars, they're a public safety issue. Until OpenPilot is confirmed to be safe enough to be road legal in Europe (I doubt it ever will be). Having a 1366kg vehicle under complete control of a system with the disclaimer > THIS IS ALPHA QUALITY SOFTWARE FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES ONLY. THIS IS NOT A PRODUCT. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR COMPLYING WITH LOCAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS. NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED. with hardware that was cobbled together in a garage somewhere, taking this thing out on the road is pure insanity.
  - ornornor 2y ago
    I wonder why you’re getting downvoted, these are good points.
    - breckenedge 2y ago
      “pure insanity” I mean cmon, hyperbole much? Y’all sound like people who have never operated a motor vehicle in less than ideal conditions.
      - ornornor 2y ago
        Im sure you’d change your mind if it killed or maimed a relative of yours and you were suing the vehicle operator. It’s irresponsible at the very least.
  - breckenedge 2y ago
    It’s on a cross-country rally through sparsely populated countyside in the dead of winter. The risks seem negligible to me. The assistance may actually make this safer than without it on such a grueling 1000km/day distance, much of it spent driving in the dark.
pxmpxm 2y ago
About no way this is legal. The throttle set up looks dangerous - any issue with the servo and it won't fail-safe to closed throttle like any drive by wire throttle body.
mannykannot 2y ago
I would doubt that one could get it insured for use on public roads. Is having liability insurance a requirement for operation in Sweden and Finland?
- ornornor 2y ago
  Third party liability is mandatory in the EU afaik.
rightbyte 2y ago
In practice it is legal until the yearly inspection or a police man says otherwise. If there is an accident I guess there might be negligence liability.

Very cool. But is this allowed to drive on public roads in Sweden? I would have assumed that swedish laws are very restrictive to these kinds of DIY modifications. Amazing if it is allowed!

bgnn 2y ago

Definitely not allowed. The route they are taking requies the car to be road legal. These modifications make it definitely illegal on public roads on Sweden and Finland. It's often not enough to pass MOT (which this car wouldn't in the Netherlands, where it seems to be registered at), you need to get type approval to make it road legal. Dutch government has a nice English page about it: https://www.government.nl/topics/general-periodic-inspection-apk/applying-for-individual-vehicle-approval https://www.government.nl/topics/general-periodic-inspection...

amelius 2y ago
I hope they don't require a crash test ...
- anticensor 2y ago
  Individual approval does not require destructive crash testing.
  - amelius 2y ago
    Great! :)
tpm 2y ago
Individual approval, not type approval, at least in most of the EU. Type approval is for manufacturers.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  The same approval used to get thousands of otherwise illegal huge American trucks like Dodge Rams on Dutch roads, incidentally.
  - tpm 2y ago
    I only understand this topic a bit because I write software for authorities that do vehicle registrations and in some cases individual approvals (type approvals are done by others) in an EU country. And my takeaway from contact with them is that they have a huge leeway in individual approvals, so I would put the blame squarely on them, and the solution would be to legislate that away (ban those ind. approvals that are obviously circumventing the usual road vehicle restrictions incl. size, noise, pedestrian safety etc).
- bgnn 2y ago
  my mistake. it's mentioned as individual approval in the link too.

spamatica 2y ago

To me it sounds extremely unlikely a car with such heavy modifications would be allowed on swedish (or finnish) public roads. Very cool project though!

lwde 2y ago

The simpel solution is to register in Poland, at least here in Germany that's the normal way for ICE to EV conversions.

anticensor 2y ago
Doesn't Germany have any EV conversion shops that has supplemental type approved kits?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

kristjank 2y ago

Most countries in the EU are pretty fascist concerning vehicle modifications. So it probably falls on the Pulp fiction end of the spectrum "It's legal but it ain't 100% legal."

bboygravity 2y ago
That's why it was mind blowing for me (Europoor) to see hot rods and things like that on public roads in the US. There truly is more freedom in the US than there is in Europe in that context.
- morsch 2y ago
  Land of the free, home of the noise pollution
  - bigfudge 2y ago
    And pedestrian fatalaities. Although to be fair the autobahn is more fun than the highway.
- sandworm101 2y ago
  Hotrods are dissappearing quickly. They cost too much. They are a pain to insure and have very low resale potential. As the culture changes, cars are moving from personal expressions to comodified fashion statements. It is rare now to even see a repaint driving on the road, let alone major engine mods. Hotrods are now just expensive weekend toys alongside boats. The market for RV mods probably now double the north american market for car mods.
  - more_corn 2y ago
    Not sure where you’re getting your information. There is a huge market for classic cars. Ever heard of Concours? Most of that crowd like to keep them stock, but there are tons of sub-genres like drift kids and Stance nation to name a few weird ones. Hotrodding is alive and well. There are car shows in most major us cities featuring hundreds of tricked out, restored and modified cars. The classic car market regularly appreciates. Just try to find an Alpha for a good price, or graph the price of a 1970 911 over the past 30 years. Also you can insure a classic for cheap since they see less road time, are garaged and generally well cared for. (see Hagerty) As for getting hotrods and restored classics on the road. California has half a dozen classic car rallies where roadworthy classics get out on the road for a couple days. I assure you the culture is alive and well.

sesvsesv 2y ago

You are correct that it probably won't be allowed. But your assumption that Sweden is restrictive isn't. I see that you live in Stockholm, so maybe you already know this, or you haven't spent much time outside the city in recent years. Almost every medium and small city in Sweden now features 16 to 17-year-olds driving old cars electronically or mechanically converted to only run at 30 kph (~20mph) without requiring a proper driver's license, adequate noise reduction, exhaust system and until recently not even winter tires or seatbelt. Making roads slow and dangerous, and the local environment much worse for everyone else. Now I don't expect this to be well-received because of "cool hack" but it is truly a major issue. Other issues like the high housing costs, bad healthcare, lacking infrastructure, mediocre education and a short-sighted population are all hard to solve. But this issue is clearly a priority. Swedish voters and politicians are prioritizing this over providing a good quality of life at a decent cost to enable education, research and knowledge based businesses. The result as a whole is that almost anyone who can is moving from these cities to bigger cities that don't have these problems, but are also so expensive that engaging in activates with high growth potential isn't viable. With grassroot hacking, small- and medium-sized business and major growth startup ending up being a fraction of what they have been and even more so should have been now.

Tempest1981 2y ago
> features 16 to 17-year-olds driving old cars ... converted to only run at 30 kph I had to search to see what you were referring to: https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230320-sweden-s-teens-drive-porsches-and-bmws-no-licence-needed https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230320-sweden-s-teen...
- sesvsesv 2y ago
  As I understand it some of the cars are newer cars electrically modified (usually the previous family car, often a station wagon). Those are mostly wasteful by driving at slow speed with only two seats and no storage (which are also rules to be able to convert them). These can be converted back to a normal car when the driver turns 18 and gets a proper driver's license. But it is also possible to disable the electronic limits. Other cars are pemanantly converted much older cars and sold as such. These are the ones that are also bad cars without the regulation affecting a normal car. Edit: Someone infamously converted and registered a heavy truck this way. Legal to drive as a 15-year-old with a moped license. https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/eddie-15-har-en-lastbil-som-a-traktor-overkligt/ https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/eddie-15-har-en-lastbil-som...

breckenedge 2y ago

It’s carbage, so if it gets caught, impounded and destroyed, I’m sure that’s all part of the fun of the experience.

jeroenhd 2y ago
That's great until the self-steering mechanism drives into a pedestrian or gets the driver into the hospital. Insurance sure isn't going to pay out and even if it does, no amount of money can undo injuries. These rules aren't in place to annoy people who have fun with cars, they're a public safety issue. Until OpenPilot is confirmed to be safe enough to be road legal in Europe (I doubt it ever will be). Having a 1366kg vehicle under complete control of a system with the disclaimer > THIS IS ALPHA QUALITY SOFTWARE FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES ONLY. THIS IS NOT A PRODUCT. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR COMPLYING WITH LOCAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS. NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED. with hardware that was cobbled together in a garage somewhere, taking this thing out on the road is pure insanity.
- ornornor 2y ago
  I wonder why you’re getting downvoted, these are good points.
  - breckenedge 2y ago
    “pure insanity” I mean cmon, hyperbole much? Y’all sound like people who have never operated a motor vehicle in less than ideal conditions.
    - ornornor 2y ago
      Im sure you’d change your mind if it killed or maimed a relative of yours and you were suing the vehicle operator. It’s irresponsible at the very least.
- breckenedge 2y ago
  It’s on a cross-country rally through sparsely populated countyside in the dead of winter. The risks seem negligible to me. The assistance may actually make this safer than without it on such a grueling 1000km/day distance, much of it spent driving in the dark.

pxmpxm 2y ago

About no way this is legal. The throttle set up looks dangerous - any issue with the servo and it won't fail-safe to closed throttle like any drive by wire throttle body.

mannykannot 2y ago

I would doubt that one could get it insured for use on public roads. Is having liability insurance a requirement for operation in Sweden and Finland?

ornornor 2y ago
Third party liability is mandatory in the EU afaik.

rightbyte 2y ago

In practice it is legal until the yearly inspection or a police man says otherwise. If there is an accident I guess there might be negligence liability.