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This is already a thing for basically all of the second[0] and third worlds. A non-trivial amount of Cloudflare's security value is plausible algorithmic discri
by kmeisthax 2y ago
This is already a thing for basically all of the second[0] and third worlds. A non-trivial amount of Cloudflare's security value is plausible algorithmic discrimination and collective punishment as a service.
[0] Previously Soviet-aligned countries; i.e. Russia and eastern Europe.
- ls612 2y agoPeople hate collective punishment because it works so well.
- eckesicle 2y agoAnecdatally, by default, we now block all Chinese and Russian IPs across our servers. After doing so, all of our logs, like ssh auth etc, are almost completely free and empty of malicious traffic. It’s actually shocking how well a blanket ban worked for us.
- macintux 2y ago~20 years ago I worked for a small IT/hosting firm, and the vast majority of our hostile traffic came from APNIC addresses. I seriously considered blocking all of it, but I don’t think I ever pulled the trigger.
- dgfitz 2y ago[flagged]
- brianwawok 2y agoThat is not at all the reason for the great firewall.
- TacticalCoder 2y ago> Anecdatally, by default, we now block all Chinese and Russian IPs across our servers. This. Just get several countries' entire IP address space and block these. I've posted I was doing just that only to be told that this wasn't in the "spirit" of the Internet or whatever similar nonsense. In addition to that only allow SSH in from the few countries / ISPs legit trafic shall legitimately be coming from. This quiets the logs, saves bandwidth, saves resources, saves the planet.
- xp84 2y agoI agree with your approach. It’s easy to empathize with innocent people in say, Russia, blocked from a site which has useful information to them. However the thing these “spirit/openness” people miss is that many sites have a narrow purpose which makes no sense to open it up to people across the world. For instance, local government. Nobody in India or Russia needs to see the minutes from some US city council meeting, or get building permit information. Likewise with e-commerce. If I sell chocolate bars and ship to US and Canada, why wouldn’t I turn off all access from overseas? You might say “oh, but what if some friend in $COUNTRY wants to order a treat for someone here?” And the response to that is always “the hypothetical loss from that is minuscule compared to the cost of serving tons of bot traffic as well as possible exploits those bots might do. (Yes, yes, VPNs and proxies exist and can be used by both good and bad actors to evade this strategy, and those are another set of IPs widely banned for the same reason. It’s a cat and mouse game but you can’t argue with the results)
- citrin_ru 2y agoBeing slightly annoyed by noise in SSH logs I’ve blocked APNIC IPs and now see a comparable number of brute force attempts from ARIN IPs (mostly US ones). Geo blocks are totally ineffective against TAs which use a global network of proxies.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- panic 2y agoWorks how? Are these blocks leading to progress toward solving any of the underlying issues?
- forgetfreeman 2y agoIt's unclear that there are actors below the regional-conglomerate-of-nation-states level that could credibly resolve the underlying issues, and given legislation and enforcement regimes sterling track record of resolving technological problems realistically it seems questionable that solutions could exist in practice. Anyway this kind of stuff is well outside the bounds of what a single org hosting an online forum could credibly address. Pragmatism uber alles.
- victorbjorklund 2y agoThe underlying issue is that countries like russia support abuse like this. So by blocking them perhaps the people there will demand that their govt stops supporting crimes and absuse so that they can be allowed back into the internet. (In the case of russians though i guess they will never change)
- petre 2y ago> people there will demand that their govt stops supporting crimes and absuse so that they can be allowed back into the internet Sure. It doesn't work that way, not in Russia or China. First they have to revert back to 1999 when Putin took over. Then they have to extradite criminals and crack down on cybercrime. Then maybe they could be allowed back onto the open Internet. In my country one would be exradited to the US in no time. In fact the USSS came over for a guy who had been laundering money through BTC from a nearby office. Not a month passed and he got extradited to the US, never to be heard from again.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- anonym29 2y agoInnocent people hate being punished for the behavior of other people, whom the innocent people have no control over.* FTFY.
- saagarjha 2y agoPutting everyone in jail also works well to prevent crime.
- singleshot_ 2y agoHaving a door with a lock on it prevents other people from committing crime in my house. This metaphor has the added benefit of making some amount of sense in context.
- shark_laser 2y agoYep. Same for most of Asia too. Cloudflare's filters are basically straight up racist. I have stopped using so many sites due to their use of Cloudflare.
- brianwawok 2y agoIf 90% of your problem users come from 1-2 countries, seems pretty sensible to block that country. I know I have 0 paying users in those countries, so why deal with it? Let them go fight it out doing bot wars in local sites
- lazide 2y agoKeep in mind, this is literally why stereotypes and racism exists. It’s the exact same process/reasoning.
- qeternity 2y agoNo, racism would be “I won’t deal with customers of Chinese ethnicity irrespective of their country of operation”. Blocking Chinese (or whatever) IPs because they are responsible for a huge amount of malicious behavior is not racist. Frankly I don’t care what the race of the Chinese IP threat actor is.
- lazide 2y agoYou really might want to re-read my comment.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- lazide 2y agoWell, not racist per-se - if you visit the countries (regardless of race) you’re screwed too. Geo-location-ist?
- grishka 2y agoI have a growing Mastodon thread of this shit: https://mastodon.social/@grishka/111934602844613193 https://mastodon.social/@grishka/111934602844613193 It's of course trivially bypassable with a VPN, but getting a 403 for an innocent get request of a public resource makes me angry every time nonetheless.
- neop1x 2y agoExactly. I have to use a VPN just for this kind of bu**it. :/
- QuadmasterXLII 2y agoThe difference between politics and diplomacy is that you can survive in politics without resorting to collective punishment.
- d0mine 2y agounrelated: USSR might have been 2nd world. Russia is 3rd world (since 1991) -- banana republic
- crote 2y agoNo, Russia is by definition the 2nd world. It's about spheres of influence, not any kind of economic status. The First World is the Western Bloc centered around the US, the Second World is the Eastern Bloc centered around then-USSR and now-Russia (although these days more centered on China), the Third World is everyone else.
- d0mine 2y agoBy which definition? Here’s the first result in google: “The term "second world" was initially used to refer to the Soviet Union and countries of the communist bloc. It has subsequently been revised to refer to nations that fall between first and third world countries in terms of their development status and economic indicators.” https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/second-world.asp#:~:text=The%20term%20%22second%20world%22%20was,development%20status%20and%20economic%20indicators https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/second-world.asp#:~:tex.... Notice the word economic in it.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]