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When I was a kid, China was a lot better integrated with the international community. Right now their relationships are far and few between, rarely featuring fi

When I was a kid, China was a lot better integrated with the international community. Right now their relationships are far and few between, rarely featuring first-world nations. If Russia couldn't beat NATO in a pitched fight against the rest of the world, neither can China.

joshbaptiste 2y ago
As a sovereign nation rises in power you'll notice how it slowly starts losing favor from USA
- roca 2y ago
  If it's a democracy and reasonably friendly to the USA, it's not a big deal. In the 1990s everyone thought Japan was going to be the next superpower and that was just fine.
  - ijidak 2y ago
    Ha! Do you remember the panic induced by a rising Japan in the late 80's and early 90's. The fear of the "Red Sun Rising". The fear that Japan was going to own most of the valuable real estate in America. The forcing of Japanese car companies to onshore to protect American jobs. Blaming of Japanese industrial policy as being unfair competition. It was the collapse of the Japanese growth engine in the mid 90's that finally ended the American panic. The U.S. and U.K. are a dual world power. Whenever powers rise to threaten that duality there is a lot of hand-wringing in Washington.
    - lmz 2y ago
      > The U.S. and U.K. are a dual world power. Wait, how did the UK get in there? Especially in this post-brexit century...
    - roca 2y ago
      I remember those years pretty well. There was a lot of hand-wringing but not a lot of concrete action, very much unlike the situation with China now.
  - suraci 2y ago
    > If it's a democracy and reasonably friendly to the USA, it's not a big deal Correction: If it accepts the stationing of U.S. troops and succumbs to U.S. financial policies, it's not a big deal Japan and Germany have paid a huge price to demonstrate their friendship to the U.S. That was not 'just fine'
    - rangestransform 2y ago
      It’s a shame that Americans don’t reap the maximal benefits from it, but why should the hegemon not take advantage of lesser states?
    - roca 2y ago
      What does "succumb to US financial policies" even mean? The situation has waxed and waned but in general West Germany and Japan at the government level have been pretty happy to have US troops stationed there while facing off against the Soviet Union (now Russia) and China. The Ukrainians and the Baltics would love to have some US troops stationed there right now.
  - tw1984 2y ago
    are you kidding? the US forced Japan to sign the plaza accord effectively ending Japan's rise. that was followed by 30 years close to zero economic growth. you are not mature enough to discuss such topic if you believe the US will be happy to be taken over by some democratic friends.
    - gregw2 2y ago
      I am intrigued by the notion that the Plaza Accord was a lynchpin that stopped Japan, and I'm sure better minds have debated it than me, but I don't quite see how a currency accord that didn't shift the trade flows or even the dollar that much, and which was reversed a couple years later in the Louvre Accord, really killed Japan's rise. My perception is that Japan, after some great success, went through a normal semi-inevitable asset bubble, but their response was uniquely Japanese. Rather than letting firms and the social contract of lifetime employment (particularly for older workers) go bankrupt, their firms and country decided to absorb the losses for a generation and stagnate. Economically it was a very suboptimal approach but socially/morally I'm less confident it was the wrong call.
      - niceguy1827 2y ago
        Arguing about the Plaza Accord is really a moot point. The real argument is that in the 80s, Japan-bashing was a real thing, just like the China-bashing today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_the_United_States#Since_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_the... https://www.nytimes.com/1982/04/06/us/resentment-of-japanese-is-growing-poll-shows.html https://www.nytimes.com/1982/04/06/us/resentment-of-japanese...
  - FpUser 2y ago
    >"... and that was just fine." No it was not. The US had taken whole bunch of steps to prevent this from happening and those steps were anything but "let's free market decide" and "compete on merits". It is a real problem for any country or block. As soon as it looks like it threatens leading position of the US all the gloves come of. Obviously not specific to the US. Any other country would do the same given a chance.
    - roca 2y ago
      What steps are you thinking of? Nothing like what is currently happening with China, I'm sure of that.
caycep 2y ago
The question in a rational mind is, why would it even bother? US/China partnership is the most economically successful in world history, even more so than US/UK or AUKUS. But the downside of CCP government structure is that paranoia at the top ranks has a good probability of overruling rationality. Albeit US cannot speak as US-centric paranoia/"exceptionalism" may do the same thing...and the electorate voted to self destruct the government despite US economy being the strongest in decades.
- bugglebeetle 2y ago
  > US economy being the strongest in decades The vast majority of its people do not share in that success and have seen a declining standard of life relative to prior generations whereas in China, the opposite is quite demonstrably true, despite increasingly similar concentrations of wealth and political power.
  - roca 2y ago
    On the contrary, real wages in the USA are the highest they've ever been. Social media and fentanyl are making people unhappy but for most people it's not an economic problem.
    - bugglebeetle 2y ago
      Sure thing, Dr. Pangloss. > Average age of first-time homebuyers is 38, an all-time high. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/11/05/the-average-age-of-first-time-us-homebuyers-is-38-an-all-time-high.html https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/11/05/the-average-age-of-first... > U.S. homelessness rose 18 percent in 2024, continuing multi-year upward trend > https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/u-s-homelessness-rose-18-percent-in-2024-continuing-multi-year-upward-trend https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/u-s-homelessness-rose-18... > analysis of government data estimates that people in the United States owe at least $220 billion in medical debt. https://www.kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief/the-burden-of-medical-debt-in-the-united-states/ https://www.kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief/the-burden-of-m...
freehorse 2y ago
> When I was a kid, China was a lot better integrated with the international community. Right now their relationships are far and few between, rarely featuring first-world nations. Maybe in western media depictions it would seem so, but eg china invests more and more in europe over the years. Moreover, BRICS are roughly half of world's population. Perceptions of what "the world" or "international relationships" mean are sometimes distorted in the west.
janalsncm 2y ago
Not sure where that comes from. By any measure China is more integrated into the rest of the world than ever before. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/biggest-trade-partner-of-each-country-1960-2020/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/biggest-trade-partner-of... Whether China can beat NATO in a head to head military contest is one question, but separate from whether they can take Taiwan, for example.
FpUser 2y ago
>"If Russia couldn't beat NATO in a pitched fight against the rest of the world, neither can China." The "rest of the world" is not limited by NATO. And China is not fighting "the rest of the world". It trades with it, invests and does all kinds of other things. But sure keeping one's head in a sand is a nice position.

joshbaptiste 2y ago

As a sovereign nation rises in power you'll notice how it slowly starts losing favor from USA

roca 2y ago
If it's a democracy and reasonably friendly to the USA, it's not a big deal. In the 1990s everyone thought Japan was going to be the next superpower and that was just fine.
- ijidak 2y ago
  Ha! Do you remember the panic induced by a rising Japan in the late 80's and early 90's. The fear of the "Red Sun Rising". The fear that Japan was going to own most of the valuable real estate in America. The forcing of Japanese car companies to onshore to protect American jobs. Blaming of Japanese industrial policy as being unfair competition. It was the collapse of the Japanese growth engine in the mid 90's that finally ended the American panic. The U.S. and U.K. are a dual world power. Whenever powers rise to threaten that duality there is a lot of hand-wringing in Washington.
  - lmz 2y ago
    > The U.S. and U.K. are a dual world power. Wait, how did the UK get in there? Especially in this post-brexit century...
  - roca 2y ago
    I remember those years pretty well. There was a lot of hand-wringing but not a lot of concrete action, very much unlike the situation with China now.
- suraci 2y ago
  > If it's a democracy and reasonably friendly to the USA, it's not a big deal Correction: If it accepts the stationing of U.S. troops and succumbs to U.S. financial policies, it's not a big deal Japan and Germany have paid a huge price to demonstrate their friendship to the U.S. That was not 'just fine'
  - rangestransform 2y ago
    It’s a shame that Americans don’t reap the maximal benefits from it, but why should the hegemon not take advantage of lesser states?
  - roca 2y ago
    What does "succumb to US financial policies" even mean? The situation has waxed and waned but in general West Germany and Japan at the government level have been pretty happy to have US troops stationed there while facing off against the Soviet Union (now Russia) and China. The Ukrainians and the Baltics would love to have some US troops stationed there right now.
- tw1984 2y ago
  are you kidding? the US forced Japan to sign the plaza accord effectively ending Japan's rise. that was followed by 30 years close to zero economic growth. you are not mature enough to discuss such topic if you believe the US will be happy to be taken over by some democratic friends.
  - gregw2 2y ago
    I am intrigued by the notion that the Plaza Accord was a lynchpin that stopped Japan, and I'm sure better minds have debated it than me, but I don't quite see how a currency accord that didn't shift the trade flows or even the dollar that much, and which was reversed a couple years later in the Louvre Accord, really killed Japan's rise. My perception is that Japan, after some great success, went through a normal semi-inevitable asset bubble, but their response was uniquely Japanese. Rather than letting firms and the social contract of lifetime employment (particularly for older workers) go bankrupt, their firms and country decided to absorb the losses for a generation and stagnate. Economically it was a very suboptimal approach but socially/morally I'm less confident it was the wrong call.
    - niceguy1827 2y ago
      Arguing about the Plaza Accord is really a moot point. The real argument is that in the 80s, Japan-bashing was a real thing, just like the China-bashing today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_the_United_States#Since_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_the... https://www.nytimes.com/1982/04/06/us/resentment-of-japanese-is-growing-poll-shows.html https://www.nytimes.com/1982/04/06/us/resentment-of-japanese...
- FpUser 2y ago
  >"... and that was just fine." No it was not. The US had taken whole bunch of steps to prevent this from happening and those steps were anything but "let's free market decide" and "compete on merits". It is a real problem for any country or block. As soon as it looks like it threatens leading position of the US all the gloves come of. Obviously not specific to the US. Any other country would do the same given a chance.
  - roca 2y ago
    What steps are you thinking of? Nothing like what is currently happening with China, I'm sure of that.

caycep 2y ago

The question in a rational mind is, why would it even bother? US/China partnership is the most economically successful in world history, even more so than US/UK or AUKUS. But the downside of CCP government structure is that paranoia at the top ranks has a good probability of overruling rationality. Albeit US cannot speak as US-centric paranoia/"exceptionalism" may do the same thing...and the electorate voted to self destruct the government despite US economy being the strongest in decades.

bugglebeetle 2y ago
> US economy being the strongest in decades The vast majority of its people do not share in that success and have seen a declining standard of life relative to prior generations whereas in China, the opposite is quite demonstrably true, despite increasingly similar concentrations of wealth and political power.
- roca 2y ago
  On the contrary, real wages in the USA are the highest they've ever been. Social media and fentanyl are making people unhappy but for most people it's not an economic problem.
  - bugglebeetle 2y ago
    Sure thing, Dr. Pangloss. > Average age of first-time homebuyers is 38, an all-time high. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/11/05/the-average-age-of-first-time-us-homebuyers-is-38-an-all-time-high.html https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/11/05/the-average-age-of-first... > U.S. homelessness rose 18 percent in 2024, continuing multi-year upward trend > https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/u-s-homelessness-rose-18-percent-in-2024-continuing-multi-year-upward-trend https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/u-s-homelessness-rose-18... > analysis of government data estimates that people in the United States owe at least $220 billion in medical debt. https://www.kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief/the-burden-of-medical-debt-in-the-united-states/ https://www.kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief/the-burden-of-m...

freehorse 2y ago

> When I was a kid, China was a lot better integrated with the international community. Right now their relationships are far and few between, rarely featuring first-world nations. Maybe in western media depictions it would seem so, but eg china invests more and more in europe over the years. Moreover, BRICS are roughly half of world's population. Perceptions of what "the world" or "international relationships" mean are sometimes distorted in the west.

janalsncm 2y ago

Not sure where that comes from. By any measure China is more integrated into the rest of the world than ever before. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/biggest-trade-partner-of-each-country-1960-2020/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/biggest-trade-partner-of... Whether China can beat NATO in a head to head military contest is one question, but separate from whether they can take Taiwan, for example.

FpUser 2y ago

>"If Russia couldn't beat NATO in a pitched fight against the rest of the world, neither can China." The "rest of the world" is not limited by NATO. And China is not fighting "the rest of the world". It trades with it, invests and does all kinds of other things. But sure keeping one's head in a sand is a nice position.