17 ms·

Mozilla will spend any amount it takes to do anything but build a better browser.

nophunphil 2y ago
In my opinion, the browser has been much better since 2017/2018. Have you used it in the last few years? Complaints about Firefox aside, the Manifest V3/uBlock Origin issue should be a major concern for tech-savvy Chromium-based browser users.
- silisili 2y ago
  I was a hardcore Firefox user for many years. Today, Chrome just blows it away. Platforms are Android and Gnome Desktop. I tried Firefox again about once a year, up until about 2022, and left disappointed again each time. Rust was important. Servo too. I'm not just hopping on the 'Mozilla blows money' train for no reason, I'm sad to see the browser languish while they blow money on things that don't matter. This doesn't matter. I use Brave now, which has a whole host of haters, some for good reason. But it blocks ads and runs circles around Firefox on every platform that I use.
  - bayindirh 2y ago
    You didn't use Firefox in the last three years, and you claim that Chrome/Brave (still) blows it away. Interesting.
    - silisili 2y ago
      Fair. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 12 times or so shame on me. /s, kinda. The OP claimed it got better in 2017, and it didn't meet my standards. But I'm honest that I haven't tried it in 2 years. If some news or person came out to suggest something big changed and I should try it again, I will. Otherwise I'm just wasting time for no reason.
      - bayindirh 2y ago
        As a person who never used Chrome in a capacity to replace Firefox (I just refused to give up), I'll just share this [0]. As I understand, no amount of words can convince you because I neither know what your standards are, nor I have the right words to convince you to try Firefox again. So, you have to give it a try and see it for yourself. As a matter of principle, I'd never use a browser which is funded by an advertisement company which lives off my data to show me ads and rob me of my privacy and cognitive capacity. In my book, Brave is even worse on that matter. Edit: To clarify: I still have Chrome installed for the odd, unmaintained site which happens to require something Chrome specific, but I just don't open it, since Firefox works for everything and works very well. [0]: https://arewefastyet.com/win11/benchmarks/overview?numDays=60 https://arewefastyet.com/win11/benchmarks/overview?numDays=6...
        KORraN 2y ago
        I just checked these benchmarks results few days ago - am I reading this wrong or (apart from Assorted DOM) Firefox loses in most of the tests?
        bayindirh 2y ago
        The problem is, benchmarks are never a fair game. It's the nature of the benchmark as a genre. You can always bias a benchmark towards some code path to show that you're superior. Also, there are other factors to consider: - Some of the benchmarks are "lower is better", so reading Y axis is important. - Some results are very close (e.g. speedometer), but the zoom makes difference bigger, so reading the Y numbers again is important. So, Firefox beats Chrome on WebAudio, StyleBench, AssortedDOM. However, this is still "benchmarks", The real world performance is very, very close. The bigger picture is, when you look at longer histories, the performance is still being tuned and improved. So, Firefox people are not sitting on what they have. Lastly, Firefox is way more sensitive to DNS response time when compared to Chrome, and a crowded site makes tons of requests. A fast DNS makes a ton of difference, which is way overlooked. I used to run a DNSMasq instance when my ISP DNS was very slow. Now, my routers have their own tuned DNSMasq instances, so DNS is instant, so Firefox is as well.
- slightwinder 2y ago
  Better does not mean good. Quantum indeed fixed many of their old performance-problems, but at the same time they lost so many in terms of ability, and performance still feels second rate compared to Chrome. But to be fair, this also depends on what you do with them. And yes, I do use them both.
4k93n2 2y ago
if make a better browser was a nice comfy bed, Mozilla would sleep on the floor
dageshi 2y ago
Firefox is genuinely fine, great even, I've used it for years and have no complaints. But you notice in all these threads, everyone who theoretically ought to use Firefox comes up with their own little list of nitpicks that justify them not using it. "I can't use it because I was disgusted when they dropped feature x" "I won't use it because they spent their money on feature y instead of just doing z" Meanwhile Chrome doesn't give a fuck what you think and does whatever it wants and people keep using it regardless. Firefox is doomed to be left with the niche audience of people who ignore the 95% of what it does right to focus on the 5% that it does wrong.
- BrenBarn 2y ago
  You're right in a way. The problem is that Mozilla seems unwilling to accept that that's their audience, so they keep trying to appeal to the 95%. If they would just double down on the "power user" audience they could make a killer browser. But instead they alienate those nitpicky users with pointless UI changes, breaking extensions, and so on.
  - dageshi 2y ago
    I don't think there's any real future in catering to the most demanding users, most of which are completely unwilling to actually pay for a power user browser.
  - manjalyc 2y ago
    Ignoring 95% of a uniform market to target the 5% of users who all have niche and conflicting preferences is a ridiculous strategy for stability, growth, and profitability.
- grues-dinner 2y ago
  To paraphrase an observation from politics: nerds fall in love, everyone else falls in line.
- yoyohello13 2y ago
  People just like to justify their choices. Whether it Windows or Chrome they will shout from the rooftops about how the open source/privacy respecting thing doesn't do X, but then totally absolve the massive company for doing another anti-consumer/anti-privacy thing. The conclusion is that privacy and software freedom are just not important to the majority of people.
IshKebab 2y ago
Their browser is fine. But so is Chrome, and Chrome wins by default because it's installed by default on Android and Android really pushes you to it. Once you're using Chrome on Android and have all your passwords saved there, Firefox is a difficult sell. I can't think of a single Firefox feature that's better than "I don't have to faff around with passwords". Maybe if they allowed adblock on mobile, but last I checked they were fannying around requiring nightly builds and whitelisting extensions...
- cafeinux 2y ago
  uBlocK Origin is natively supported on FF mobile, and to me this is the only feature without which I couldn't live.
- ksenzee 2y ago
  I agree with your logic but I think the facts lead to the opposite conclusion, because uBlock Origin is now both easy and painless to use with Firefox on Android. That's why every Android user should now have Firefox installed. And if you're using Firefox on Android, why not use it on desktop too with Firefox Sync? I don't actually know how good the Firefox password manager is (I use 1Password) but it's on both desktop and mobile, just like Chrome's is. And it's really nice to send tabs back and forth from mobile to desktop.
  - IshKebab 2y ago
    Ah I didn't know they've finally done that. I'll have to give it another try. If the password manager works well (e.g. with apps) and I can make the app drawer search open in Firefox then I'll probably switch.
    - andyjohnson0 2y ago
      > make the app drawer search open in Firefox Curious about you mean here. On my android phone the "search for more apps" link in the app drawer search goes to the Play Store app. Why would you want it to open a browser?
whilenot-dev 2y ago
Tbf, they can take all the time they need as Google with Chrome is doing more for Firefox than Mozilla itself, i.e. Manifest V3.
i_love_retros 2y ago
What's wrong with Firefox?
- DoctorOW 2y ago
  It could have been nice to see the Rust rewrites finished instead of shelved due to costs. AI is very expensive so if they have the money for this, they could've probably started that up again. Firefox is generally good feature wise but Google gets to almost usurp the W3C because pretty much every other browser is using the Chromium codebase over Mozilla's.
  - i_love_retros 2y ago
    What value would a rewrite in rust bring?
    - CamouflagedKiwi 2y ago
      It was sold as supporting a much more concurrent rendering engine, which they felt was basically too hard to write correctly/safely in C++, but presumably would be considerably faster.
      - mdaniel 2y ago
        My interest in a rust web engine is absolutely memory safety, because it's a fun game at work to post the "RCE o' the week" seemingly caused from exposing literally millions of lines of C++ to the wild Internet https://chromereleases.googleblog.com/search/label/Stable%20updates#:~:text=Use%20after%20free https://chromereleases.googleblog.com/search/label/Stable%20...

In my opinion, the browser has been much better since 2017/2018. Have you used it in the last few years? Complaints about Firefox aside, the Manifest V3/uBlock Origin issue should be a major concern for tech-savvy Chromium-based browser users.

silisili 2y ago
I was a hardcore Firefox user for many years. Today, Chrome just blows it away. Platforms are Android and Gnome Desktop. I tried Firefox again about once a year, up until about 2022, and left disappointed again each time. Rust was important. Servo too. I'm not just hopping on the 'Mozilla blows money' train for no reason, I'm sad to see the browser languish while they blow money on things that don't matter. This doesn't matter. I use Brave now, which has a whole host of haters, some for good reason. But it blocks ads and runs circles around Firefox on every platform that I use.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  You didn't use Firefox in the last three years, and you claim that Chrome/Brave (still) blows it away. Interesting.
  - silisili 2y ago
    Fair. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 12 times or so shame on me. /s, kinda. The OP claimed it got better in 2017, and it didn't meet my standards. But I'm honest that I haven't tried it in 2 years. If some news or person came out to suggest something big changed and I should try it again, I will. Otherwise I'm just wasting time for no reason.
    - bayindirh 2y ago
      As a person who never used Chrome in a capacity to replace Firefox (I just refused to give up), I'll just share this [0]. As I understand, no amount of words can convince you because I neither know what your standards are, nor I have the right words to convince you to try Firefox again. So, you have to give it a try and see it for yourself. As a matter of principle, I'd never use a browser which is funded by an advertisement company which lives off my data to show me ads and rob me of my privacy and cognitive capacity. In my book, Brave is even worse on that matter. Edit: To clarify: I still have Chrome installed for the odd, unmaintained site which happens to require something Chrome specific, but I just don't open it, since Firefox works for everything and works very well. [0]: https://arewefastyet.com/win11/benchmarks/overview?numDays=60 https://arewefastyet.com/win11/benchmarks/overview?numDays=6...
      - KORraN 2y ago
        I just checked these benchmarks results few days ago - am I reading this wrong or (apart from Assorted DOM) Firefox loses in most of the tests?
        bayindirh 2y ago
        The problem is, benchmarks are never a fair game. It's the nature of the benchmark as a genre. You can always bias a benchmark towards some code path to show that you're superior. Also, there are other factors to consider: - Some of the benchmarks are "lower is better", so reading Y axis is important. - Some results are very close (e.g. speedometer), but the zoom makes difference bigger, so reading the Y numbers again is important. So, Firefox beats Chrome on WebAudio, StyleBench, AssortedDOM. However, this is still "benchmarks", The real world performance is very, very close. The bigger picture is, when you look at longer histories, the performance is still being tuned and improved. So, Firefox people are not sitting on what they have. Lastly, Firefox is way more sensitive to DNS response time when compared to Chrome, and a crowded site makes tons of requests. A fast DNS makes a ton of difference, which is way overlooked. I used to run a DNSMasq instance when my ISP DNS was very slow. Now, my routers have their own tuned DNSMasq instances, so DNS is instant, so Firefox is as well.
slightwinder 2y ago
Better does not mean good. Quantum indeed fixed many of their old performance-problems, but at the same time they lost so many in terms of ability, and performance still feels second rate compared to Chrome. But to be fair, this also depends on what you do with them. And yes, I do use them both.

4k93n2 2y ago

if make a better browser was a nice comfy bed, Mozilla would sleep on the floor

dageshi 2y ago

Firefox is genuinely fine, great even, I've used it for years and have no complaints. But you notice in all these threads, everyone who theoretically ought to use Firefox comes up with their own little list of nitpicks that justify them not using it. "I can't use it because I was disgusted when they dropped feature x" "I won't use it because they spent their money on feature y instead of just doing z" Meanwhile Chrome doesn't give a fuck what you think and does whatever it wants and people keep using it regardless. Firefox is doomed to be left with the niche audience of people who ignore the 95% of what it does right to focus on the 5% that it does wrong.

BrenBarn 2y ago
You're right in a way. The problem is that Mozilla seems unwilling to accept that that's their audience, so they keep trying to appeal to the 95%. If they would just double down on the "power user" audience they could make a killer browser. But instead they alienate those nitpicky users with pointless UI changes, breaking extensions, and so on.
- dageshi 2y ago
  I don't think there's any real future in catering to the most demanding users, most of which are completely unwilling to actually pay for a power user browser.
- manjalyc 2y ago
  Ignoring 95% of a uniform market to target the 5% of users who all have niche and conflicting preferences is a ridiculous strategy for stability, growth, and profitability.
grues-dinner 2y ago
To paraphrase an observation from politics: nerds fall in love, everyone else falls in line.
yoyohello13 2y ago
People just like to justify their choices. Whether it Windows or Chrome they will shout from the rooftops about how the open source/privacy respecting thing doesn't do X, but then totally absolve the massive company for doing another anti-consumer/anti-privacy thing. The conclusion is that privacy and software freedom are just not important to the majority of people.

IshKebab 2y ago

Their browser is fine. But so is Chrome, and Chrome wins by default because it's installed by default on Android and Android really pushes you to it. Once you're using Chrome on Android and have all your passwords saved there, Firefox is a difficult sell. I can't think of a single Firefox feature that's better than "I don't have to faff around with passwords". Maybe if they allowed adblock on mobile, but last I checked they were fannying around requiring nightly builds and whitelisting extensions...

cafeinux 2y ago
uBlocK Origin is natively supported on FF mobile, and to me this is the only feature without which I couldn't live.
ksenzee 2y ago
I agree with your logic but I think the facts lead to the opposite conclusion, because uBlock Origin is now both easy and painless to use with Firefox on Android. That's why every Android user should now have Firefox installed. And if you're using Firefox on Android, why not use it on desktop too with Firefox Sync? I don't actually know how good the Firefox password manager is (I use 1Password) but it's on both desktop and mobile, just like Chrome's is. And it's really nice to send tabs back and forth from mobile to desktop.
- IshKebab 2y ago
  Ah I didn't know they've finally done that. I'll have to give it another try. If the password manager works well (e.g. with apps) and I can make the app drawer search open in Firefox then I'll probably switch.
  - andyjohnson0 2y ago
    > make the app drawer search open in Firefox Curious about you mean here. On my android phone the "search for more apps" link in the app drawer search goes to the Play Store app. Why would you want it to open a browser?

whilenot-dev 2y ago

Tbf, they can take all the time they need as Google with Chrome is doing more for Firefox than Mozilla itself, i.e. Manifest V3.

i_love_retros 2y ago

What's wrong with Firefox?

DoctorOW 2y ago
It could have been nice to see the Rust rewrites finished instead of shelved due to costs. AI is very expensive so if they have the money for this, they could've probably started that up again. Firefox is generally good feature wise but Google gets to almost usurp the W3C because pretty much every other browser is using the Chromium codebase over Mozilla's.
- i_love_retros 2y ago
  What value would a rewrite in rust bring?
  - CamouflagedKiwi 2y ago
    It was sold as supporting a much more concurrent rendering engine, which they felt was basically too hard to write correctly/safely in C++, but presumably would be considerably faster.
    - mdaniel 2y ago
      My interest in a rust web engine is absolutely memory safety, because it's a fun game at work to post the "RCE o' the week" seemingly caused from exposing literally millions of lines of C++ to the wild Internet https://chromereleases.googleblog.com/search/label/Stable%20updates#:~:text=Use%20after%20free https://chromereleases.googleblog.com/search/label/Stable%20...