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I own both Mercedes and Skoda (owned by VW) and I feel like both companies are headed in an extremely bad direction. The other day I saw that now Mercedes wants

I own both Mercedes and Skoda (owned by VW) and I feel like both companies are headed in an extremely bad direction. The other day I saw that now Mercedes wants to charge me 200-300 USD/year for navigation and the ability to remotely lock your door. The fact is they let you pay $100k for a car and then they behave like Facebook and other consumer platforms where you pay with your data and can buy add-ons. You can't combine the two. In this case you paid for your car, so it's yours and they are hands-off unless you ask them for something. Also, the car should not randomly stop working after three years and ask you for extra money. Unfortunately, I don't have any faith in Tesla either. While in front of innovation surely they are behind moral. If I were to buy a car today, I'm not sure where to look.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
chii 2y ago
This is what happens when you dont control the machine you purchase. Stallman have warned much of this, but it is often on deaf ears, because consumers' behaviour don't change.
- magic_smoke_ee 2y ago
  People are suckers for convenience without considering the details of how something is made, supported, or serviced, or the TCO.
  - binary132 2y ago
    It’s more that our major markets are totally dominated by the standard pattern and there are no meaningful alternatives outside of bike and mass transit, which are not meaningful alternatives to vehicle ownership.
    - Silhouette 2y ago
      This is the most important point IMHO. There is no rational argument that someone is voluntarily signing up to some consumer-hostile behaviour by choosing to make a purchase if (a) every supplier in the market is playing the same game and (b) it is difficult to function as a normal member of society without buying that type of product from someone. Smartphones are a textbook example of this. For many people so are cars and TVs. General purpose computing is in danger of going the same way. Don't get me started on so-called smart homes. Call it a failure of the free market and competition to provide effective alternatives. Call it a lack of oversight and regulation from governments that increasingly back businesses and economic figures over protecting their own people. It doesn't really matter. Until there is clear law that says selling products to people that will actively act against the interests of the purchaser must at least be prominently disclosed before purchase and probably in the more serious cases simply be banned by law the enshittification will continue because it makes the decision-makers a lot of money.
      - binary132 2y ago
        If anything our regulatory system has been hijacked by capital sponsors to reinforce the fundamental monopolies that operate our economy, and the secondary consequence is that if we do not continue to do it at this point, our economy will implode. So the government is not only captured but also has only one meaningful choice: to further reinforce the monopolistic control of the western economies in the hopes of continued “economic growth.” Obviously this should be seen as a disaster scenario (and highly likely outcome) for a capitalist society.
        Silhouette 2y ago
        I agree that there is a lot of regulatory capture within Western governments and this is bad. I respectfully disagree that we can't fix it. In particular I reject the notion that any organisation or system is too big to fail. If any commercial organisation or cartel is reaching a position or scale where its failure would represent a significant threat to the economic stability or indeed the democratic government of its host nation(s) then it is imperative that it should be quickly - and if necessary brutally - brought to a position where either it no longer poses such a threat or it is effectively destroyed and space is created for alternatives (possibly derived from the original) that will better serve the society they are part of.
pluc 2y ago
I think what will happen with that is "performance shops" will start jailbreaking cars. You can already unlock additional power in your ECU by going stage I, II or III with custom and reputable ECU modders and the car feels completely different. It's a matter of time before ECU devs add going around subscription limitations, I think.
- alexey-salmin 2y ago
  ECU modifications are rare (most people don't care) and car manufacturers don't lose money on it. If money gets on the table, I'm 100% sure they'll sue the workshops like John Deere did. And given the lobby VW has in Europe they can also pass some extra laws to reinforce their case.
  - pluc 2y ago
    I don't know about that... There's a whole industry of performance parts that softly depend on ECU modifications. There's much less of an incentive to swap parts if your ECU doesn't keep up with the performance gains. But you are absolutely right on the loss of money aspect.
    - numpad0 2y ago
      Most "ECU tuning" are just minor config file changes. The map is sufficiently complex being an R^2 data, enough to justify it being a skill. Actual car-guy-firmware-hackers are ultra rare.
- TacticalCoder 2y ago
  > You can already unlock additional power in your ECU by going stage I, II or III with custom and reputable ECU modders and the car feels completely different. Yup, especially since that many cars artificially limited to "segment" the model into more models but are basically the exact same car. Some ECU modders, at least in the EU, also play it fully legit: they'll reprogram the ECU so that you've got more power and they'll help you with the paperwork for the DIV / insurance so that it's all legal.
- 2y ago
harha 2y ago
EU is also quite involved by making sure that a car can’t simply be a car anymore but needs a lot of complex systems that may ore may not work as intended, like remote capabilities etc.
- TacticalCoder 2y ago
  It's all part of a plan. The EU is very busy setting up the equivalent of the chinese "social credit". It started with "ESG" rating by banks (where you're already attributed an ESG rating depending on which companies you invest your money in) and now it's likely they'll be moving forward with computing your yearly carbon emission to then decide if you can go on vacation or not and how far. Don't underestimate the globalists' plan to control every single individual. They have an agenda "you'll own nothing and you'll be happy" (World Economic Forum plan). Lately the EU wants to establish a registry of every single possession of every single EU citizen, down to watches, jewelry and paintings. There are literally vids with members of the european parliament asking the EU commission "guarantees" that this new registry won't be used to then confiscate these goods. Tracking every single car is part of the plan. And, no, I'm not seeing things. People should vote to GTFO of the EU and should vote for much smaller goverments because the only things awaiting citizen at the end of the road is misery. The EU is heading at full speed towards a dystopian totalitarian supra-state.
  - iamacyborg 2y ago
    Citation needed
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - ricktdotorg 2y ago
      re: EU central registry of assets, here is a Bloomberg Law piece from July 2024, detailing the chairman of the EU parliament's tax subcommittee's desire to get a "European registry of assets". it seems fairly straight forward. [1] https://myconvergence.bna.com/ContentItem/ArticlePublic/262055204000000018/580518?itemGuid=500df625-c0b7-4cf7-98d5-2b7082a852c1 https://myconvergence.bna.com/ContentItem/ArticlePublic/2620... edited to fix link
CrimsonRain 2y ago
Ignore the best car for self inflicted reasons, then get upset for not finding anything else. Where was your moral compass when you bought merc (or bmv or whatever else) when they were shoving basic necessities in higher trim packages to rip off people for years?
magic_smoke_ee 2y ago
Tesla can outright decide to total/brick your car and not sell you parts. They're worse than Apple. While an VW-owned, separately-managed Scout appear to be making a better EV, but could still take it in the direction of the corporate drones.
reacharavindh 2y ago
I don’t think Mercedes is owned by VW.. may be you thought of Audi..
- saghm 2y ago
  I think they might have been only saying that Skoda is owned by VW? The fact that the referred to "both companies" after that made me assume that, although I know next to nothing about cars (and hadn't even heard of Skoda before, but maybe it's not as well known to Americans like me).
jll29 2y ago
Refuse to sign any agreements about data collection (even for rental cars!), read the small print, if you are a EU citizen, send them GDPR Data Subject and then Data Deletion requests according to Article 17! https://noyb.eu/en/your-right-erasure-article-17#:~:text=What%20is%20the%20right%20to,illegal%20in%20the%20first%20place https://noyb.eu/en/your-right-erasure-article-17#:~:text=Wha....
dmuso 2y ago
My car was made in 1998. Used cars are probably the best option for the time being. Surely hackers have figured out how to block radios in the new cars?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

chii 2y ago

This is what happens when you dont control the machine you purchase. Stallman have warned much of this, but it is often on deaf ears, because consumers' behaviour don't change.

magic_smoke_ee 2y ago
People are suckers for convenience without considering the details of how something is made, supported, or serviced, or the TCO.
- binary132 2y ago
  It’s more that our major markets are totally dominated by the standard pattern and there are no meaningful alternatives outside of bike and mass transit, which are not meaningful alternatives to vehicle ownership.
  - Silhouette 2y ago
    This is the most important point IMHO. There is no rational argument that someone is voluntarily signing up to some consumer-hostile behaviour by choosing to make a purchase if (a) every supplier in the market is playing the same game and (b) it is difficult to function as a normal member of society without buying that type of product from someone. Smartphones are a textbook example of this. For many people so are cars and TVs. General purpose computing is in danger of going the same way. Don't get me started on so-called smart homes. Call it a failure of the free market and competition to provide effective alternatives. Call it a lack of oversight and regulation from governments that increasingly back businesses and economic figures over protecting their own people. It doesn't really matter. Until there is clear law that says selling products to people that will actively act against the interests of the purchaser must at least be prominently disclosed before purchase and probably in the more serious cases simply be banned by law the enshittification will continue because it makes the decision-makers a lot of money.
    - binary132 2y ago
      If anything our regulatory system has been hijacked by capital sponsors to reinforce the fundamental monopolies that operate our economy, and the secondary consequence is that if we do not continue to do it at this point, our economy will implode. So the government is not only captured but also has only one meaningful choice: to further reinforce the monopolistic control of the western economies in the hopes of continued “economic growth.” Obviously this should be seen as a disaster scenario (and highly likely outcome) for a capitalist society.
      - Silhouette 2y ago
        I agree that there is a lot of regulatory capture within Western governments and this is bad. I respectfully disagree that we can't fix it. In particular I reject the notion that any organisation or system is too big to fail. If any commercial organisation or cartel is reaching a position or scale where its failure would represent a significant threat to the economic stability or indeed the democratic government of its host nation(s) then it is imperative that it should be quickly - and if necessary brutally - brought to a position where either it no longer poses such a threat or it is effectively destroyed and space is created for alternatives (possibly derived from the original) that will better serve the society they are part of.

pluc 2y ago

I think what will happen with that is "performance shops" will start jailbreaking cars. You can already unlock additional power in your ECU by going stage I, II or III with custom and reputable ECU modders and the car feels completely different. It's a matter of time before ECU devs add going around subscription limitations, I think.

alexey-salmin 2y ago
ECU modifications are rare (most people don't care) and car manufacturers don't lose money on it. If money gets on the table, I'm 100% sure they'll sue the workshops like John Deere did. And given the lobby VW has in Europe they can also pass some extra laws to reinforce their case.
- pluc 2y ago
  I don't know about that... There's a whole industry of performance parts that softly depend on ECU modifications. There's much less of an incentive to swap parts if your ECU doesn't keep up with the performance gains. But you are absolutely right on the loss of money aspect.
  - numpad0 2y ago
    Most "ECU tuning" are just minor config file changes. The map is sufficiently complex being an R^2 data, enough to justify it being a skill. Actual car-guy-firmware-hackers are ultra rare.
TacticalCoder 2y ago
> You can already unlock additional power in your ECU by going stage I, II or III with custom and reputable ECU modders and the car feels completely different. Yup, especially since that many cars artificially limited to "segment" the model into more models but are basically the exact same car. Some ECU modders, at least in the EU, also play it fully legit: they'll reprogram the ECU so that you've got more power and they'll help you with the paperwork for the DIV / insurance so that it's all legal.
2y ago

harha 2y ago

EU is also quite involved by making sure that a car can’t simply be a car anymore but needs a lot of complex systems that may ore may not work as intended, like remote capabilities etc.

TacticalCoder 2y ago
It's all part of a plan. The EU is very busy setting up the equivalent of the chinese "social credit". It started with "ESG" rating by banks (where you're already attributed an ESG rating depending on which companies you invest your money in) and now it's likely they'll be moving forward with computing your yearly carbon emission to then decide if you can go on vacation or not and how far. Don't underestimate the globalists' plan to control every single individual. They have an agenda "you'll own nothing and you'll be happy" (World Economic Forum plan). Lately the EU wants to establish a registry of every single possession of every single EU citizen, down to watches, jewelry and paintings. There are literally vids with members of the european parliament asking the EU commission "guarantees" that this new registry won't be used to then confiscate these goods. Tracking every single car is part of the plan. And, no, I'm not seeing things. People should vote to GTFO of the EU and should vote for much smaller goverments because the only things awaiting citizen at the end of the road is misery. The EU is heading at full speed towards a dystopian totalitarian supra-state.
- iamacyborg 2y ago
  Citation needed
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - ricktdotorg 2y ago
    re: EU central registry of assets, here is a Bloomberg Law piece from July 2024, detailing the chairman of the EU parliament's tax subcommittee's desire to get a "European registry of assets". it seems fairly straight forward. [1] https://myconvergence.bna.com/ContentItem/ArticlePublic/262055204000000018/580518?itemGuid=500df625-c0b7-4cf7-98d5-2b7082a852c1 https://myconvergence.bna.com/ContentItem/ArticlePublic/2620... edited to fix link

CrimsonRain 2y ago

Ignore the best car for self inflicted reasons, then get upset for not finding anything else. Where was your moral compass when you bought merc (or bmv or whatever else) when they were shoving basic necessities in higher trim packages to rip off people for years?

magic_smoke_ee 2y ago

Tesla can outright decide to total/brick your car and not sell you parts. They're worse than Apple. While an VW-owned, separately-managed Scout appear to be making a better EV, but could still take it in the direction of the corporate drones.

reacharavindh 2y ago

I don’t think Mercedes is owned by VW.. may be you thought of Audi..

saghm 2y ago
I think they might have been only saying that Skoda is owned by VW? The fact that the referred to "both companies" after that made me assume that, although I know next to nothing about cars (and hadn't even heard of Skoda before, but maybe it's not as well known to Americans like me).

jll29 2y ago

Refuse to sign any agreements about data collection (even for rental cars!), read the small print, if you are a EU citizen, send them GDPR Data Subject and then Data Deletion requests according to Article 17! https://noyb.eu/en/your-right-erasure-article-17#:~:text=What%20is%20the%20right%20to,illegal%20in%20the%20first%20place https://noyb.eu/en/your-right-erasure-article-17#:~:text=Wha....

dmuso 2y ago

My car was made in 1998. Used cars are probably the best option for the time being. Surely hackers have figured out how to block radios in the new cars?