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What's ironic about this is that Egypt no longer poses a threat to Israel because of these peace agreements and reliance on American foreign aid. If this were n

What's ironic about this is that Egypt no longer poses a threat to Israel because of these peace agreements and reliance on American foreign aid. If this were not the case, Israel likely would not be a position such that they could pursue military attacks against Gaza and war in Lebanon.

insane_dreamer 2y ago
Interesting viewpoint, however I don't think that would stop Israel in Lebanon (which has not been aligned with Egypt), and probably not in Gaza either. It might have made Egypt more willing to open its border with Gaza, but could it really absorb 1-2 million refugees, as Jordan once did?
- sitkack 2y ago
  That is exactly what Israel wants, so they can expropriate Gaza permanently.
bhouston 2y ago
My view of the future is that Israel’s borders will probably continue to expand opportunistically for the forseeable future. This is a doctrine known as Greater Israel. At some point the Egypt-Israel relationship could deteriorate and Israel could expand in that direction again. Overall expansionist/conquest urges are back in with Russia, US under Trump and Israel. We will probably see China also get into the act.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  > Israel could expand in that direction again I agree that Israel harbors Zionist destructive ambitions, but it doesn't really extend beyond "Greater Israel" which is the extent of Israel in Biblical times under King David and King Solomon. That does not extend in Egypt's direction, but it does include Lebanon, Syria and Jordan, so it's no coincidence that Israel has pushed in those directions (southern Lebanon, Golan Heights, and the West Bank).
  - bhouston 2y ago
    The controversial Greater Israel army patch seen in Gaza includes Sinai and the western banks of the Red Sea as well as a bunch of Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Of course the end point of expansion is likely not predetermined.
    - settrans 2y ago
      Controversial, as in almost certainly made up anti-Israel propaganda? Ryan McBeth presents his thoughtful analysis and debunking here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8HWJ2v0R6k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8HWJ2v0R6k
      - bhouston 2y ago
        I didn't say it was an official patch. Settler ambitions are real though: Settlement movement for Southern Lebanon: https://jewishcurrents.org/inside-the-movement-to-settle-southern-lebanon-uri-tzafon-israel https://jewishcurrents.org/inside-the-movement-to-settle-sou.... Unclear if this will happen, depends if Israel actually does withdraw fully or not. Resettlement movement for Gaza: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Israeli_resettlement_of_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Israeli_resettlement_.... This is likely to happen on Trumps watch in Northern Gaza. The General's Plan is clearing out Northern Gaza of Arabs as we speak. Permanent annexation of Golan Heights, and more land taken in Syria for the "foreseeable future": https://www.cbc.ca/news/israel-occupy-buffer-zone-syria-netanyahu-1.7413045 https://www.cbc.ca/news/israel-occupy-buffer-zone-syria-neta...
        settrans 2y ago
        The alleged patch suggests that there is some Israeli ambition to conquer all of the Levant. There is no such Israeli settler movement. As far as Lebanon, there is no mainstream support whatsoever to settle north of the Blue Line. The article you linked describes the idea as "far-right". I would invite you to talk to an Israeli and ask them what they think about Israel annexing Lebanon. Gaza is entirely different. There was a centuries-old Jewish presence in Gaza until 1929, when the Jews were ethnically cleansed by an Arab pogrom. That same Jewish-owned land was resettled again in 1946, but the Egyptians ethnically cleansed Gaza again in 1948, and kept Gaza Judenrein until 1967. Israel decided to pull all Jews out of Gaza again in a bid for peace in 2005, but of course we all know how that turned out.
- settrans 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - sitkack 2y ago
    https://visualizingpalestine.org/visual/shrinking-palestine/ https://visualizingpalestine.org/visual/shrinking-palestine/ Doesn't include the parts of Syria that Israel just expropriated. Are you sure you aren't parroting Zionist tropes? That sea phrase ... Likud Party Platform https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform... > between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjhXXspw7pw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjhXXspw7pw
    - settrans 2y ago
      So, the "Shrinking Palestine" graphic is a famous example of misleading Arafat propaganda. The instance you linked displays 4 maps, ostensibly comparing the area of "Palestine" versus "Israel". Each map is wrong: - 1918: At this time, there was no such thing as a state of Israel, nor had there there any administrative district named Palestine nor any Ottoman territory with borders like these. Instead, there was a British Mandate for Palestine. The British did not claim sovereignty but were instead the custodians assigned by the League of Nations to administer the land until sovereignty was established. A better map looks like this: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/images/mandate1.gif https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/images/mandate1.gif - 1947: The map here describes the "displacement of Palestinian inhabitants". Ignoring the fact that the term Palestinian was used to describe the Jews at that time, there was no such phenomenon of "displacing Palestinian inhabitants" through 1947; the land transfers were all voluntary purchases. Furthermore, this map confusingly contrasts Jewish settlements with blue colored empty land, as if to suggest that were somehow Arab land. A better map would look like this: https://i.redd.it/1dn46n9vgmw41.png https://i.redd.it/1dn46n9vgmw41.png - 1960: While this is the first map that depicts a sovereign Israel, it conveniently ignores _why_ any Arab inhabitants were displaced: after the UN approved a division of Palestine among Jews and Arabs, the Arabs started a war of annihilation against the Jews, but ultimately lost. Confusingly, this map does not depict the 156,000 Arabs that remained as Israeli citizens (other than perhaps some in the Galilee?). - 2015: This map oversimplifies the complexities of the Oslo accords, painting Area C as if Israel claimed sovereignty over it (Israel does not), and continues to obscure the ~2 million Arabs living in the state of Israel. If you would like a more accurate timeline of Palestinian territory, see her: https://aijac.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/mor-768x614.jpg https://aijac.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/mor-768x614.... Side note: I'm always curious what people mean when they say "Zionist" here. It would imply that you're not a Zionist, i.e. you don't believe the Jews are entitled to sovereignty. Either you support destroying the state of Israel, or you have a different definition of Zionist I don't understand.
- edanm 2y ago
  The idea that you're driving here, that Israel is some kind of expansionist "empire", is, frankly, ridiculous. Have you ever actually looked at a map of the middle east? Israel makes up 0.1% of the ME. Egypt is 46 times the size of Israel. If you look at a map of the ME, Israel is barely a dot on there. Talking about Israel, the 150th country in the world in size, in the same breath as China, Russia and the US - five of the largest countries in the world, is very weird.
  - bhouston 2y ago
    But Israel does have a leader who believes in expanding and it is. Israeli settlements are growing and annexing land. Land is being annexed in Gaza via the General’s plan. More land has been captured in Syria. And it isn’t yet clear if Israel will fully withdraw from Lebanon. It doesn’t matter what size Israel is. It has a super equipped army unlike any other country in the region and its population is growing while many countries around it are failed/fragile states (eg syria and Lebanon and sort of Egypt.). And if Jordan is forced to take a few million Palestinians from the West Bank it could become a failed/fragile state too.
    - edanm 2y ago
      Everything I wrote is true even if Israel does annex all of Gaza and the West Bank, which is the only territorial claims that some extremist Israelis make. Extremists who unfortunately wield far more influence than they should, given their lack of support among the populace. (And to be clear, I think the entire settlement project is terrible and corrosive to Israel, and should be stopped and rolled back at once.) The majority of Israel doesn't care about taking the WB and Gaza - they only care about security, and are (very justifiably) afraid of a Palestinian state on Israel's border. I don't think Israel's leader believes in expanding, btw - he only wants one thing, his own political survival. Everything else is secondary. > It doesn’t matter what size Israel is. It has a super equipped army unlike any other country in the region and its population is growing while many countries around it are failed/fragile states (eg syria and Lebanon and sort of Egypt.). First, it does matter what size Israel is. If you are claiming that Israel is expansionist, but it makes up literally a tiny blip on the map, then I think that's pretty relevant. Secondly, I don't think the fact that its population is growing is relevant to this discussion? How does that matter? If you're saying that Israel is more succesfull than most of its neighbors, I agree, but not sure why you think it's relevant, or a mark against Israel?
aprilthird2021 2y ago
Not exactly, they also overthrew the last (and only) democratically elected leader of the country to maintain this peace since the majority of the people don't want it

insane_dreamer 2y ago

Interesting viewpoint, however I don't think that would stop Israel in Lebanon (which has not been aligned with Egypt), and probably not in Gaza either. It might have made Egypt more willing to open its border with Gaza, but could it really absorb 1-2 million refugees, as Jordan once did?

sitkack 2y ago
That is exactly what Israel wants, so they can expropriate Gaza permanently.

bhouston 2y ago

My view of the future is that Israel’s borders will probably continue to expand opportunistically for the forseeable future. This is a doctrine known as Greater Israel. At some point the Egypt-Israel relationship could deteriorate and Israel could expand in that direction again. Overall expansionist/conquest urges are back in with Russia, US under Trump and Israel. We will probably see China also get into the act.

insane_dreamer 2y ago
> Israel could expand in that direction again I agree that Israel harbors Zionist destructive ambitions, but it doesn't really extend beyond "Greater Israel" which is the extent of Israel in Biblical times under King David and King Solomon. That does not extend in Egypt's direction, but it does include Lebanon, Syria and Jordan, so it's no coincidence that Israel has pushed in those directions (southern Lebanon, Golan Heights, and the West Bank).
- bhouston 2y ago
  The controversial Greater Israel army patch seen in Gaza includes Sinai and the western banks of the Red Sea as well as a bunch of Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Of course the end point of expansion is likely not predetermined.
  - settrans 2y ago
    Controversial, as in almost certainly made up anti-Israel propaganda? Ryan McBeth presents his thoughtful analysis and debunking here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8HWJ2v0R6k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8HWJ2v0R6k
    - bhouston 2y ago
      I didn't say it was an official patch. Settler ambitions are real though: Settlement movement for Southern Lebanon: https://jewishcurrents.org/inside-the-movement-to-settle-southern-lebanon-uri-tzafon-israel https://jewishcurrents.org/inside-the-movement-to-settle-sou.... Unclear if this will happen, depends if Israel actually does withdraw fully or not. Resettlement movement for Gaza: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Israeli_resettlement_of_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Israeli_resettlement_.... This is likely to happen on Trumps watch in Northern Gaza. The General's Plan is clearing out Northern Gaza of Arabs as we speak. Permanent annexation of Golan Heights, and more land taken in Syria for the "foreseeable future": https://www.cbc.ca/news/israel-occupy-buffer-zone-syria-netanyahu-1.7413045 https://www.cbc.ca/news/israel-occupy-buffer-zone-syria-neta...
      - settrans 2y ago
        The alleged patch suggests that there is some Israeli ambition to conquer all of the Levant. There is no such Israeli settler movement. As far as Lebanon, there is no mainstream support whatsoever to settle north of the Blue Line. The article you linked describes the idea as "far-right". I would invite you to talk to an Israeli and ask them what they think about Israel annexing Lebanon. Gaza is entirely different. There was a centuries-old Jewish presence in Gaza until 1929, when the Jews were ethnically cleansed by an Arab pogrom. That same Jewish-owned land was resettled again in 1946, but the Egyptians ethnically cleansed Gaza again in 1948, and kept Gaza Judenrein until 1967. Israel decided to pull all Jews out of Gaza again in a bid for peace in 2005, but of course we all know how that turned out.
settrans 2y ago
[flagged]
- sitkack 2y ago
  https://visualizingpalestine.org/visual/shrinking-palestine/ https://visualizingpalestine.org/visual/shrinking-palestine/ Doesn't include the parts of Syria that Israel just expropriated. Are you sure you aren't parroting Zionist tropes? That sea phrase ... Likud Party Platform https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform... > between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjhXXspw7pw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjhXXspw7pw
  - settrans 2y ago
    So, the "Shrinking Palestine" graphic is a famous example of misleading Arafat propaganda. The instance you linked displays 4 maps, ostensibly comparing the area of "Palestine" versus "Israel". Each map is wrong: - 1918: At this time, there was no such thing as a state of Israel, nor had there there any administrative district named Palestine nor any Ottoman territory with borders like these. Instead, there was a British Mandate for Palestine. The British did not claim sovereignty but were instead the custodians assigned by the League of Nations to administer the land until sovereignty was established. A better map looks like this: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/images/mandate1.gif https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/images/mandate1.gif - 1947: The map here describes the "displacement of Palestinian inhabitants". Ignoring the fact that the term Palestinian was used to describe the Jews at that time, there was no such phenomenon of "displacing Palestinian inhabitants" through 1947; the land transfers were all voluntary purchases. Furthermore, this map confusingly contrasts Jewish settlements with blue colored empty land, as if to suggest that were somehow Arab land. A better map would look like this: https://i.redd.it/1dn46n9vgmw41.png https://i.redd.it/1dn46n9vgmw41.png - 1960: While this is the first map that depicts a sovereign Israel, it conveniently ignores _why_ any Arab inhabitants were displaced: after the UN approved a division of Palestine among Jews and Arabs, the Arabs started a war of annihilation against the Jews, but ultimately lost. Confusingly, this map does not depict the 156,000 Arabs that remained as Israeli citizens (other than perhaps some in the Galilee?). - 2015: This map oversimplifies the complexities of the Oslo accords, painting Area C as if Israel claimed sovereignty over it (Israel does not), and continues to obscure the ~2 million Arabs living in the state of Israel. If you would like a more accurate timeline of Palestinian territory, see her: https://aijac.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/mor-768x614.jpg https://aijac.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/mor-768x614.... Side note: I'm always curious what people mean when they say "Zionist" here. It would imply that you're not a Zionist, i.e. you don't believe the Jews are entitled to sovereignty. Either you support destroying the state of Israel, or you have a different definition of Zionist I don't understand.
edanm 2y ago
The idea that you're driving here, that Israel is some kind of expansionist "empire", is, frankly, ridiculous. Have you ever actually looked at a map of the middle east? Israel makes up 0.1% of the ME. Egypt is 46 times the size of Israel. If you look at a map of the ME, Israel is barely a dot on there. Talking about Israel, the 150th country in the world in size, in the same breath as China, Russia and the US - five of the largest countries in the world, is very weird.
- bhouston 2y ago
  But Israel does have a leader who believes in expanding and it is. Israeli settlements are growing and annexing land. Land is being annexed in Gaza via the General’s plan. More land has been captured in Syria. And it isn’t yet clear if Israel will fully withdraw from Lebanon. It doesn’t matter what size Israel is. It has a super equipped army unlike any other country in the region and its population is growing while many countries around it are failed/fragile states (eg syria and Lebanon and sort of Egypt.). And if Jordan is forced to take a few million Palestinians from the West Bank it could become a failed/fragile state too.
  - edanm 2y ago
    Everything I wrote is true even if Israel does annex all of Gaza and the West Bank, which is the only territorial claims that some extremist Israelis make. Extremists who unfortunately wield far more influence than they should, given their lack of support among the populace. (And to be clear, I think the entire settlement project is terrible and corrosive to Israel, and should be stopped and rolled back at once.) The majority of Israel doesn't care about taking the WB and Gaza - they only care about security, and are (very justifiably) afraid of a Palestinian state on Israel's border. I don't think Israel's leader believes in expanding, btw - he only wants one thing, his own political survival. Everything else is secondary. > It doesn’t matter what size Israel is. It has a super equipped army unlike any other country in the region and its population is growing while many countries around it are failed/fragile states (eg syria and Lebanon and sort of Egypt.). First, it does matter what size Israel is. If you are claiming that Israel is expansionist, but it makes up literally a tiny blip on the map, then I think that's pretty relevant. Secondly, I don't think the fact that its population is growing is relevant to this discussion? How does that matter? If you're saying that Israel is more succesfull than most of its neighbors, I agree, but not sure why you think it's relevant, or a mark against Israel?

aprilthird2021 2y ago

Not exactly, they also overthrew the last (and only) democratically elected leader of the country to maintain this peace since the majority of the people don't want it