8 ms·

Are PC hardware companies driving technology into restricted closed ecosystems?

209 points by trinsic2 2y ago

Terr_ 2y ago
That reminds me of how Dell was (still?) used different PSU/motherboard power connections, and at one point the physically matching connectors with different pinouts meant Dell PSUs would fry regular motherboards or vice-versa. This sounds like more of the same, a kind of uncaring that shades into hostility.
- userbinator 2y ago
  and at one point the physically matching connectors with different pinouts meant Dell PSUs would fry regular motherboards or vice-versa. I think it's more than "uncaring" - since they just shifted the pinout 3 pins over from standard ATX, got rid of the 3.3V and added another 2 5V lines: https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=59959 https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=59959
  - toast0 2y ago
    I think dropping the 3.3v and -12v connections is a valid choice, but they probably should have found a different connector to use so the incompatability was obvious.
    - cesarb 2y ago
      > I think dropping the 3.3v and -12v connections is a valid choice, More than just a valid choice, in the long run even 5V is going to be dropped. Intel's ATX12VO standard has only 12V coming from the power supply, all other voltages are generated on the motherboard when necessary.
    - jmb99 2y ago
      They could have also dropped those rails by just dropping them, and leaving the connector the same. It’s pretty unlikely they needed the extra current on the 5V rail.
- barrkel 2y ago
  Compaq was always worse in this regard, making almost PC but not quite PCs.
- ocdtrekkie 2y ago
  A lot of Dell design is slightly more proprietary. At their scale the slight cost or efficiency gains they pick up are probably worth the extra design changes. At work we use all Dells and generally speaking the changes generally lead to a nicer technician experience. And sometimes standards suck: Dell E-series docks were drastically more reliable and less fragile than USB-C and I miss them terribly. For what it's worth, I'm not sure the consumer is hurt too bad either: Because of their sheer scale, aftermarket Dell parts and clone parts are extremely cheap. Any Dell part number turns ip tons off off-brand replacements on Amazon and eBay. The biggest downside to Dell's approach is e-waste. When they change a design, otherwise serviceable hardware isn't useful when working with newer models. Speaking of those wonderful old E-series docks, we had to replace them all simply because they don't sell laptops with the connector anymore.
- hinkley 2y ago
  DOS ain’t done ‘til Lotus won’t run.
  - DerekL 2y ago
    That’s a myth, it was never Microsoft’s policy.
- qingcharles 2y ago
  I cooked a hard drive recently because the HP board used the same connector with different pin-outs to another standard SATA power cable. I got very lucky because it was possible to desolder the flash RAM from that HDD board to another one and get the drive working again.
K0balt 2y ago
[flagged]
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  Who do you buy from when they’re all bad. I don’t think buying a Linux laptop is a serious option even for most enthusiasts. The software, hardware, and battery life just aren’t there.
  - shmerl 2y ago
    I think it's just some lingering propaganda of those who oppose adoption of Linux. Things are pretty usable and are there for those who want to use them. Not necessarily Dell though - haven't used them in a long time.
  - goda90 2y ago
    Framework seems pretty Linux friendly. System76 is dedicated to Linux hardware.
  - jay_kyburz 2y ago
    I thought you could buy Dells with Linux on them instead of Windows. Software is better, hardware is the same. I think its just a battery life issue, and as far as I know its not much worse than windows. If you are going to carry the power brick around with you anyway, might as well just plug in it a little earlier.
    - johnbellone 2y ago
      They sold a few specific models with Linux as an option. IIRC they were mostly developer centric marketing.
    - gostsamo 2y ago
      Dell were those who put drm on the power supply. I doubt that I'll buy from them ever again.
    - int_19h 2y ago
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
I agree there’s need for a consortium or organization. If only to wage a marketing campaign that hurts these harmful companies.
Ologn 2y ago
Last week there was a "Switched Back to Windows After over 10 Years on Linux" thread ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42496032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42496032 ), and this story shows one of the reasons I prefer Linux to Windows.
- rbanffy 2y ago
  Or, at least, get a computer that’s also offered with Linux.
duskwuff 2y ago
The complaint here seems a little misguided. The AHCI / RAID switch the author is describing is only relevant to drive controllers which support SATA disks - AHCI is the protocol that's used to interact with a SATA controller. This switch has no effect on NVMe drives, and never has; the fact that the BIOS control for it even mentioned NVMe is odd. The "RST storage driver" (i.e. Intel Rapid Storage Technology) is only required for systems which support SATA RAID using an Intel integrated RAID controller. It is not required to use NVMe devices. I wouldn't expect Dell to provide this driver for systems which don't use SATA disks, since it wouldn't do anything. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if there were some weird trick required to perform a clean install of Windows on these machines. But I don't think the author has identified it correctly, and I find their theory that this is a deliberate effort to "control the user experience" unconvincing.
- trinsic2 2y ago
  You can switch into ACHI mode for NVME drives. The point is you cannot install windows clean without either having the RST driver, if your storage device is set to a RAID configuration in the BIOS, or switching into AHCI mode which my article describes. Since the Dell Laptop model I described did not have an option to switch from RAID into ACHI I was unable to install windows clean without the RST Driver. And that driver is not included on Dell's Website. Please tell me where this is misguided..
  - Hizonner 2y ago
    I'm a bit lost in all this, except for kind of thinking that it shows X86 is a giant mess. First, doesn't Windows knows how to use NVME drives as NVME drives, without going through some weird SATA compatibility layer? Second, if I'm reading you right, Windows also has bundled drivers for RST. It's just that the installer doesn't. Is that right? Are you saying that the Windows installer doesn't know how to use storage interfaces that the final installed Windows system would know how to use, and furthermore that those include storage interfaces that might be used for the boot drive? So in order to install, you have to get an RST driver and somehow load it into the installer, but after that the system will work? Because that sounds like a Windows problem more than a BIOS problem. You're installing your OS on reasonably vanilla storage[^1]. Why would you expect to have to download a driver from Dell at all? [^1]: Sort of vanilla. I don't know about this "RST" nonsense and am suspicious of anything that might make it hard to move a drive, or indeed an entire RAID array, to another computer or controller intact.
numbsafari 2y ago
I haven’t used a dell computer in over 15 years at this point and I don’t miss them even one little bit. If you want open, buy open. Options exist.
- siltcakes 2y ago
  Do you just use your phone? I can't stand "typing" on it (maybe I'm old). It's literally painful vs my 100+ wpm on a real keyboard.
  - E39M5S62 2y ago
    They specified a brand of computer - I imagine they're just using equipment from another company.
- codr7 2y ago
  Dell makes crap computers, period.
  - doublerabbit 2y ago
    Dell makes fine computers but you need to pay the premium. The XPS laptops are fine.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
      My XPS was dire, that was what drove me to my first MacBook.
    - codr7 2y ago
      So people say, I think they look and feel like crap compared to macbooks and thinkpads.
calmbonsai 2y ago
Dell has been crap in the server, "blade", desktop, and laptop space for over 20 years. They couldn't even get their touch-pads consistent (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41992784 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41992784). I have very few generic vendor sourcing advice when it comes to computing hardware, but "Nobody ever got fired for NOT buying Dell." is one of them. Just don't.
- virtualwhys 2y ago
  Counterpoint, running Dell R430 rack server for nearly ten years -- in that time a single SSD in raid 10, 8 disk array, has failed. Maybe I got lucky? Similarly, my last three laptops have all been Dell Precision -- only issue until I switched to Intel integrated gpu was Nvidia on Linux (black screens, laptop attempting liftoff due to gpu heating issues) causing periodic grief. Also, for the author, Dell Precision provides advanced BIOS options out of the box, something that their consumer line of laptops probably doesn't offer.
  - calmbonsai 2y ago
    We had 4 Dell Itanium racks (circa 2003) all fail with the same exact power-supply overvoltage issue over the course of 4 months. Maybe we got unlucky.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  Dell's rack servers are one of the rare servers which refused to die under continuous heavy load (HPC). Their R815s after eliminating the early failures (leading edge of the bathtub curve) just trucked on. I used to run an OpenStack cluster on top of them till last April or so. At the end, either the CPU power regulators died, or their RAID cards just called quits. No other errors after 10+ years of service. We also have their newer CPU and GPU servers. They just work. Scream occasionally due to high load, but not overheating or dying. They're built like a tank, from our experience.
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    They also have the MI300A-based servers. I’d love to misuse one as a workstation.
catkitcourt 2y ago
Maybe consider prevent Intel and RST. They are nightmare out of factory.
userbinator 2y ago
Normally, you would see this screen that allows you to switch storage modes And back when PCs were far more open, good old IDE was always an option too. Ever since BIOS became EFI, and flash ROMs started getting much bigger, it seems they've not been adding functionality but removing it slowly. The excuse is often "security" (against the user), and "legacy" (the oldest interfaces are also the most widely understood and stable). That said, I'd stay away from the "prebuilt" manufacturers like Dell, Lenovo, HP, etc. if you want configurability. They've always had far less options in their BIOS than equivalent offerings from "enthusiast" or "gamer" oriented companies, although in the laptop space it's more difficult to do that.
- JJMcJ 2y ago
  If you're lucky enough to live in an area that still has small computer shops you can also get made to order if you aren't up to making one yourself. In Silicon Valley you can go to Central Computer, though they aren't a tiny neighborhood shop by any means. For laptops you might buy a Linux laptop.
  - distortedsignal 2y ago
    When you say “made to order” - you’re talking about desktops, ya? Not laptops? If there are made to order laptops, I need to see that. I’m planning on using Central for a PC build in a month or so - definitely going to try to stretch my dollars.
    - mattnewton 2y ago
      This used to be a thing- I remember my father excitedly configuring a made-to-order laptop from ZipZoomFly[0] back in the day. I think that the market wasn’t kind to them though, the ecosystem about replaceable laptop parts never matured to the point where it was competitive with the proprietary designs, and standards constantly changed because of the form factor’ constraints, so the dream of just replacing a single part never materialized. Closest thing to that dream now is the framework laptop, which does have replaceable parts. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZipZoomfly https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZipZoomfly]
walterbell 2y ago
> We are slowly being boiled to the point of no return. We need some kind of consortium for users to represent our interests otherwise in 10 or 20 years we will have very limited choice when it comes to computer technology. For servers purchased in bulk by hyperscalers, OpenCompute has done a great job of coordinating owner requirements for hardware and firmware delivered by ODMs and silicon vendors in the server supply chain. Founded by Facebook, OCP built on the pioneering ethos of whitebox servers at early Google Search. To create a similar organization for clients, one would need to pool enough buying power to influence the supply chain for "PC" (x86/Arm) client devices. OCP bypassed Tier 1 OEMs and worked directly with Taiwan ODMs. This worked because hyperscalers could implement custom firmware and do their own support. The closest existing client vendor might be Framework, which has not yet managed open-source firmware. Plus Clevo (coreboot) OEMs. DMTF [2] might have some interest. A possible baby step towards open clients would be an OCP reference design for a "privileged access workstation" to access security-sensitive administrator web consoles for hyperscaler clouds. Include both a discrete TPM and an open silicon root of trust (OCP MS Caliptra or Google OpenTitan are both open firmware). AMD OpenSIL has promised OSS client firmware by 2026 and AMD mini-PC boards are everywhere. The building blocks are present for a high-integrity reference client with open firmware, under control of the client-owning cloud customer. With suitable licensing, anyone from Tier1 PC OEMs or small vendors could create custom derivatives of the OCP reference client IF they retain mandatory core properties like open firmware and open silicon RoT. We could intentionally reboot the accidentally-open IBM PC ecosystem, at least for the small niche of secure cloud administration. If the OCP reference client is successful, it could motivate a new client-focused org for open client hardware. [1] https://www.opencompute.org https://www.opencompute.org [2] https://www.dmtf.org https://www.dmtf.org
- jsheard 2y ago
  Although on the subject of hyperscaler hardware and restricted closed ecosystems, AMD EPYC processors have that nice feature which allows OEMs to permanently vendor-lock the processor to their hardware on first boot, so you can't take a chip from a Dell server and stick it in a non-Dell server for example. If you're buying a random surplus EPYC processor you might not even be able to know which vendor it's bound to until you try it.
biando 2y ago
I consider myself a mediocre geek and a big fan of the look and feel of the DELL Optiplex 7020 SFF. Without diving into too many details, I typically buy around 3-4 of them yearly (i5 CPU, 16 GB RAM, 256 GB disk) and add an additional 1 TB drive. I always replace the OS with Ubuntu. Do you have any recommendations for an alternative machine? I’m looking for a solid, reliable workhorse that could serve for years. My current DELL setup has never failed or let me down, and I’d like to find something within a similar budget that I can rely on for constant use for years.
- yencabulator 2y ago
  You said SFF -> I recently got a https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-um890pro https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-um890pro and it's been great in the small computer category.
  - heraldgeezer 2y ago
    The whole point is that used business machines are way cheaper... like 50/60 each maybe 100-120 max.
    - yencabulator 2y ago
      Ah, used changes the game. I optimized for compilation speed (in the tiny box category), so a used Dell would not have helped me.
      - heraldgeezer 2y ago
        Companies sell these off after just a few years as warranty goes out. You can pick up 2019/2020 machines on ebay. Fast enough for most things.
        yencabulator 2y ago
        There's no such thing as "fast enough" for Rust compilation. I'm putting the AMD CPU, 96 GB RAM, and a fast NVMe all to good use and still have time for a sword fight..
amluto 2y ago
This issue goes back a long way, and the blame goes to a combination of OEMs and Intel (and AMD) wanting to sell RAID solutions without needing real RAID hardware, and the Intel CPU and chipset teams playing along in ways that they really should not have. In the AHCI era (and earlier), drives connected to a SATA controller, and there were three ways this could work: a) The controller was just a controller. Perhaps it appeared as an AHCI device over PCI. No funny business, and the OS could talk to the drive more or less directly via the controller. b) Hardware, at at least hardware-ish, RAID. A RAID controller speaks SATA to the drives, and the OS speaks some protocol to the controller. It’s possible for the protocol to be obnoxious and to require obnoxious drivers and/or management software, but at least it makes sense. c) Software “RAID” that pretends to be hardware. The CPU really does speak AHCI to the drive, but the vendor has decided to make it pretend to be a high end vendor thing and to integrate it with BIOS. But this is a mess, since the controller really is AHCI. So some hack is done to prevent the OS’s native driver from noticing the AHCI devices and instead let a (generally very bad) vendor “driver” that is actually a full RAID stack claim the devices. This could be as simple as firmware asking the AHCI controller not to report AHCI compatibility. Intel has also enabled this through multiple generations of disgusting kludges. Enter NVMe. Unlike SATA, there is no controller. NVMe drives are PCIe devices. So the choices are different: a) Vendor does nothing except boot support. NVMe drives show up on PCIe just like anything else would. b) Vendor has an actual RAID controller. It’s a device that speaks PCIe to the NVMe devices and, itself, acts as an NVMe (or AHCI) device as seen by the OS. This could work fine, but it’s unlikely to be as fast as the drives themselves (NVMe is fast). c) A truly atrocious hack, again enabled by Intel, in which firmware can ask the Intel PCIe hardware to straight up lie to the OS about what devices are connected. The hardware will try to identify NVMe drives that it’s supposed to hide (which is itself a mess — these drives are all actually just PCIe devices, and there is no reliable way in general to figure out which devices are supposed to be hidden). Then some magic “RAID” driver will do some other kludge to talk to the NVMe devices behind the OS’s back and pretend to be a disk itself. Of course it works poorly. In any case, I wonder if the OP’s machine is actually an example of (b), where the NVMe drives, presumably connected to a fancy backplane, are genuinely connected via PCIe to an actual RAID controller, not the CPU or chipset. If so, a firmware option for “native NVMe” would make no sense, and the actual correct solution is for the OP to arrange for the Windows installer to use the right driver. This has been officially supported, usually in some annoying way, since at least Windows NT 4.0 and probably for quite a bit longer.
Avlin67 2y ago
AHCI with typo... oh boy
detourdog 2y ago
This is only true for very sophisticated computing. From my point of view general purpose computing is alive and and every bit as free as the good old days. The only barriers are points of view. Here is just one example of computing that has no limits on problem solving. The only limits are scale and what good is scale anyway. Problems solved at scale are too general and over complex for most individuals problems. https://hackaday.com/2019/09/09/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-padauk-mcus-and-more/ https://hackaday.com/2019/09/09/everything-you-wanted-to-kno...
- heraldgeezer 2y ago
  >This is only true for very sophisticated computing Like a bog-standard Dell??
  - detourdog 2y ago
    Not familiar with bog-standards. The form-factor and footprint of most desktop computers is simple inertia of the current tooling and mindset.
heraldgeezer 2y ago
Reddit sysadmin sub discussing this https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/1hp3sst/pc_hardware_companies_slowly_driving_technology/ https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/1hp3sst/pc_hardwa...
999900000999 2y ago
Blame Microsoft. Across multiple laptops the Win 11 iso doesn't have Wifi drivers. And since we're in hell, you can't finish the setup process and actually use your computer without an Internet connection. Since then you'd be able to run an installer for the WiFi drivers. Luckily you can use an Android phone to create an Internet bridge which will allow you to proceed. However, The OEMs will automatically install CrapWare( we should start calling it this) even on vanilla Windows installs. Compared to my last few CachyOS installs where everything just works out of the box. I don't need to provide my email address to use my computer. Honestly as long as I can disable secureboot and install Linux it's ok. The moment I can't do this I'll be using legacy hardware ( or import a laptop from the EU where this is banned). Edit: Hopefully the EU will make secure boot an option we can disable... To be fair normal people don't care. My friend needed a new laptop, and since she's not too worried about the latest specs I just picked up what I could find at target for 300$. She is never going to reinstall. When Windows messes itself up in a year or two she'll probably just buy another 300$ laptop.
- nrp 2y ago
  We’ve taken to recommending Rufus in our setup guides rather than the Windows installation media tool due to the lack of recent Wi-Fi drivers in vanilla Windows.
- LtWorf 2y ago
  Good thing that now the regular debian image includes non free firmwares so wifi cards work during the setup!
- userbinator 2y ago
  However, The OEMs will automatically install CrapWare( we should start calling it this) even on vanilla Windows installs. MS itself started doing that in Win10.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    Only on Windows Home, though. Windows Professional has none of that bullshit and I've done many installs. Anyone who is this passionate about computers should be buying a Professional license anyway, namely to get proper access to Group Policy and other things peasants won't care for.
Sparkyte 2y ago
Everyone wants to be the next Apple.
bpye 2y ago
You could probably export the drivers from the OEM media and then use those with stock install media [0]. [0] - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/module/dism/export-windowsdriver?view=windowsserver2025-ps https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/module/dism/exp...
- Aurornis 2y ago
  This is the answer. Yes, it’s unfortunate that Dell didn’t put this specific driver on their website for this specific model. However, I think the simplest explanation is that Dell is getting lazy with their driver coverage on their website, not some conspiracy to slowly boil the industry alive. Use the common tools for exporting a driver from the OEM media if you can’t find it online.
pjmlp 2y ago
PCs are only open because IBM failed to keep it closed, that wasn't the plan. They became the exception among 16 bit systems in regards to openness, and while it contributed to PC taking over everything else, OEMS want their margins back.
- piyuv 2y ago
  EFF has an excellent article on this: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/08/ibm-pc-compatible-how-adversarial-interoperability-saved-pcs-monopolization https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/08/ibm-pc-compatible-how-...
- kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
  They published schematics and the BIOS listing. If their plan was to stay closed they went about it in a peculiar way.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    No they didn't, read on Compaq clean room reverse engineering, the lawsuit, and IBM's failed attempt to regain the PC market with MCA and PS/2, after losing it.
    - kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
      IBM 5150 Technical Reference Manual from 1984. The 1981 version is also floating around. The commented BIOS starts on page 123. https://archive.org/details/IBMPCIBM5150TechnicalReference6322507APR84/page/n2/mode/1up https://archive.org/details/IBMPCIBM5150TechnicalReference63...
      - pjmlp 2y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_compatible https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_compatible "By June 1983 PC Magazine defined "PC 'clone'" as "a computer [that can] accommodate the user who takes a disk home from an IBM PC, walks across the room, and plugs it into the 'foreign' machine".[7] Demand for the PC by then was so strong that dealers received 60% or less of the inventory they wanted,[8] and many customers purchased clones instead.[9][10][11] Columbia Data Products produced the first computer more or less compatible with the IBM PC standard during June 1982, soon followed by Eagle Computer. Compaq announced its first product, an IBM PC compatible in November 1982, the Compaq Portable. The Compaq was the first sewing machine-sized portable computer that was essentially 100% PC-compatible. The court decision in Apple v. Franklin, was that BIOS code was protected by copyright law, but it could reverse-engineer the IBM BIOS and then write its own BIOS using clean room design. Note this was over a year after Compaq released the Portable. The money and research put into reverse-engineering the BIOS was a calculated risk. " Copyright law and clean room design being the magic words. Followed a couple of years later with, "Compaq, IBM Reach Broad Patent-Sharing Agreement" https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-07-15-fi-3046-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-07-15-fi-3046-s...
creatonez 2y ago
Dell is a horrible horrible company. Constantly trying to trick and deceive users.
bradfa 2y ago
It’s probably about $3M to design, manufacture, and bring to market a modern PC mainboard with semi custom firmware today. There’s no money in making an open and hackable system today because the dozens of customers simply won’t make back the up front cost. Look at Raptor Computing, super open super focused on hackability, but selling in dozens to hundreds of units because their customer is a niche market.
- wmf 2y ago
  Raptor is mostly failing because their price/performance is terrible. An x86 Raptor would be much more compelling.
  - bradfa 2y ago
    When they came out with the POWER9 systems originally the price to performance wasn’t that bad. It’s been a while since then. But also they seem to have known their market so priced it to hopefully be a sustainable business to recover the engineering costs.
    - wmf 2y ago
      priced it to hopefully be a sustainable business to recover the engineering costs Yeah, that's the part that doesn't work. You have to eat losses on (at least) the first generation to succeed.
      - bradfa 2y ago
        Losing money to enter a market requires a lot of money. This generally only happens in a big company, which is the current market where no one cares about being open or hackable, or VC funding, which has historically been anti-open and anti-hackable in the long run. VC money has made first or second generation products which are in that direction but longer term has not had a great record. I think Raptor’s plan was/is the right one but the market of consumers who will pay extra to get that openness is quite small. Framework is close. They’ve had a LOT of VC money.
gmueckl 2y ago
I can't remember whether it was Dell or Compaq that had non-standard power supply wiring in their PCs many, many years ago. This game isn't new.
probablybetter 2y ago
It boggles my mind that the entirety of the hardware world cannot accept the simple concept of making computer hardware capable of booting and running <latest open source operating systems literally purpose-built to take advantage of general hardware standards the Hardware Manufacturers WERE ALREADY MAKING for Microsoft Windows (TM)> I mean, it's not like Linux didn't spend 30 frikkin' years specifically aping hardware that carried the WIntel brand from the IBM PC with MS-DOS up to WindozeWhatever13 or whatever they are up to now... I cannot fathom the strange incentivization schema that would cause the entirety of the existing mass-retail OEM computer production to be "Windows ONLY" and actively contributing to literally selling LESS of their own units via efforts to lock their own hardware against running your own damned OS upon it! I buy hardware I can run Linux on. I have no use for Microsoft Windows in any capacity for any purpose, period. end of story. Hardware Manufacturers please take note! (I remain puzzled... Dell even sells some preloaded Linux laptops, IIRC... what gives, Dell?)
- wmf 2y ago
  Dell even sells some preloaded Linux laptops, IIRC... what gives, Dell? What gives is that the Developer Edition gives them permission to make the other models 110% Windows-only because "if you want Linux just buy the Developer Edition". In their minds there is no reason to make the normal edition support Linux.
anal_reactor 2y ago
One trick that I have discovered that does wonders in a wide array of scenarios is to run OS installation inside a visual machine with a real drive connected.
mjmas 2y ago
The Dell website does provide the RST drivers. For the Inspiron Laptop 16, the RST drivers are found under the driver category, not the firmware category (which is what the screenshot shows in the article). For the desktop, the driver appears under Recommended drivers. That being said, I recently did a dual boot install (on an MSI motherboard) with Windows and Pop!_OS and the Linux install went much smoother than Windows. For Windows I had to get the RST drivers and run the setup exe in extract mode in order to get drivers that worked during initial install. And Windows also didn't even include an Ethernet driver by default.

209 points by trinsic2 2y ago

That reminds me of how Dell was (still?) used different PSU/motherboard power connections, and at one point the physically matching connectors with different pinouts meant Dell PSUs would fry regular motherboards or vice-versa. This sounds like more of the same, a kind of uncaring that shades into hostility.

userbinator 2y ago
and at one point the physically matching connectors with different pinouts meant Dell PSUs would fry regular motherboards or vice-versa. I think it's more than "uncaring" - since they just shifted the pinout 3 pins over from standard ATX, got rid of the 3.3V and added another 2 5V lines: https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=59959 https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=59959
- toast0 2y ago
  I think dropping the 3.3v and -12v connections is a valid choice, but they probably should have found a different connector to use so the incompatability was obvious.
  - cesarb 2y ago
    > I think dropping the 3.3v and -12v connections is a valid choice, More than just a valid choice, in the long run even 5V is going to be dropped. Intel's ATX12VO standard has only 12V coming from the power supply, all other voltages are generated on the motherboard when necessary.
  - jmb99 2y ago
    They could have also dropped those rails by just dropping them, and leaving the connector the same. It’s pretty unlikely they needed the extra current on the 5V rail.
barrkel 2y ago
Compaq was always worse in this regard, making almost PC but not quite PCs.
ocdtrekkie 2y ago
A lot of Dell design is slightly more proprietary. At their scale the slight cost or efficiency gains they pick up are probably worth the extra design changes. At work we use all Dells and generally speaking the changes generally lead to a nicer technician experience. And sometimes standards suck: Dell E-series docks were drastically more reliable and less fragile than USB-C and I miss them terribly. For what it's worth, I'm not sure the consumer is hurt too bad either: Because of their sheer scale, aftermarket Dell parts and clone parts are extremely cheap. Any Dell part number turns ip tons off off-brand replacements on Amazon and eBay. The biggest downside to Dell's approach is e-waste. When they change a design, otherwise serviceable hardware isn't useful when working with newer models. Speaking of those wonderful old E-series docks, we had to replace them all simply because they don't sell laptops with the connector anymore.
hinkley 2y ago
DOS ain’t done ‘til Lotus won’t run.
- DerekL 2y ago
  That’s a myth, it was never Microsoft’s policy.
qingcharles 2y ago
I cooked a hard drive recently because the HP board used the same connector with different pin-outs to another standard SATA power cable. I got very lucky because it was possible to desolder the flash RAM from that HDD board to another one and get the drive working again.

K0balt 2y ago

[flagged]

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
Who do you buy from when they’re all bad. I don’t think buying a Linux laptop is a serious option even for most enthusiasts. The software, hardware, and battery life just aren’t there.
- shmerl 2y ago
  I think it's just some lingering propaganda of those who oppose adoption of Linux. Things are pretty usable and are there for those who want to use them. Not necessarily Dell though - haven't used them in a long time.
- goda90 2y ago
  Framework seems pretty Linux friendly. System76 is dedicated to Linux hardware.
- jay_kyburz 2y ago
  I thought you could buy Dells with Linux on them instead of Windows. Software is better, hardware is the same. I think its just a battery life issue, and as far as I know its not much worse than windows. If you are going to carry the power brick around with you anyway, might as well just plug in it a little earlier.
  - johnbellone 2y ago
    They sold a few specific models with Linux as an option. IIRC they were mostly developer centric marketing.
  - gostsamo 2y ago
    Dell were those who put drm on the power supply. I doubt that I'll buy from them ever again.
  - int_19h 2y ago

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

I agree there’s need for a consortium or organization. If only to wage a marketing campaign that hurts these harmful companies.

Ologn 2y ago

Last week there was a "Switched Back to Windows After over 10 Years on Linux" thread ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42496032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42496032 ), and this story shows one of the reasons I prefer Linux to Windows.

rbanffy 2y ago
Or, at least, get a computer that’s also offered with Linux.

duskwuff 2y ago

The complaint here seems a little misguided. The AHCI / RAID switch the author is describing is only relevant to drive controllers which support SATA disks - AHCI is the protocol that's used to interact with a SATA controller. This switch has no effect on NVMe drives, and never has; the fact that the BIOS control for it even mentioned NVMe is odd. The "RST storage driver" (i.e. Intel Rapid Storage Technology) is only required for systems which support SATA RAID using an Intel integrated RAID controller. It is not required to use NVMe devices. I wouldn't expect Dell to provide this driver for systems which don't use SATA disks, since it wouldn't do anything. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if there were some weird trick required to perform a clean install of Windows on these machines. But I don't think the author has identified it correctly, and I find their theory that this is a deliberate effort to "control the user experience" unconvincing.

trinsic2 2y ago
You can switch into ACHI mode for NVME drives. The point is you cannot install windows clean without either having the RST driver, if your storage device is set to a RAID configuration in the BIOS, or switching into AHCI mode which my article describes. Since the Dell Laptop model I described did not have an option to switch from RAID into ACHI I was unable to install windows clean without the RST Driver. And that driver is not included on Dell's Website. Please tell me where this is misguided..
- Hizonner 2y ago
  I'm a bit lost in all this, except for kind of thinking that it shows X86 is a giant mess. First, doesn't Windows knows how to use NVME drives as NVME drives, without going through some weird SATA compatibility layer? Second, if I'm reading you right, Windows also has bundled drivers for RST. It's just that the installer doesn't. Is that right? Are you saying that the Windows installer doesn't know how to use storage interfaces that the final installed Windows system would know how to use, and furthermore that those include storage interfaces that might be used for the boot drive? So in order to install, you have to get an RST driver and somehow load it into the installer, but after that the system will work? Because that sounds like a Windows problem more than a BIOS problem. You're installing your OS on reasonably vanilla storage[^1]. Why would you expect to have to download a driver from Dell at all? [^1]: Sort of vanilla. I don't know about this "RST" nonsense and am suspicious of anything that might make it hard to move a drive, or indeed an entire RAID array, to another computer or controller intact.

numbsafari 2y ago

I haven’t used a dell computer in over 15 years at this point and I don’t miss them even one little bit. If you want open, buy open. Options exist.

siltcakes 2y ago
Do you just use your phone? I can't stand "typing" on it (maybe I'm old). It's literally painful vs my 100+ wpm on a real keyboard.
- E39M5S62 2y ago
  They specified a brand of computer - I imagine they're just using equipment from another company.
codr7 2y ago
Dell makes crap computers, period.
- doublerabbit 2y ago
  Dell makes fine computers but you need to pay the premium. The XPS laptops are fine.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
    My XPS was dire, that was what drove me to my first MacBook.
  - codr7 2y ago
    So people say, I think they look and feel like crap compared to macbooks and thinkpads.

calmbonsai 2y ago

Dell has been crap in the server, "blade", desktop, and laptop space for over 20 years. They couldn't even get their touch-pads consistent (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41992784 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41992784). I have very few generic vendor sourcing advice when it comes to computing hardware, but "Nobody ever got fired for NOT buying Dell." is one of them. Just don't.

virtualwhys 2y ago
Counterpoint, running Dell R430 rack server for nearly ten years -- in that time a single SSD in raid 10, 8 disk array, has failed. Maybe I got lucky? Similarly, my last three laptops have all been Dell Precision -- only issue until I switched to Intel integrated gpu was Nvidia on Linux (black screens, laptop attempting liftoff due to gpu heating issues) causing periodic grief. Also, for the author, Dell Precision provides advanced BIOS options out of the box, something that their consumer line of laptops probably doesn't offer.
- calmbonsai 2y ago
  We had 4 Dell Itanium racks (circa 2003) all fail with the same exact power-supply overvoltage issue over the course of 4 months. Maybe we got unlucky.
bayindirh 2y ago
Dell's rack servers are one of the rare servers which refused to die under continuous heavy load (HPC). Their R815s after eliminating the early failures (leading edge of the bathtub curve) just trucked on. I used to run an OpenStack cluster on top of them till last April or so. At the end, either the CPU power regulators died, or their RAID cards just called quits. No other errors after 10+ years of service. We also have their newer CPU and GPU servers. They just work. Scream occasionally due to high load, but not overheating or dying. They're built like a tank, from our experience.
- rbanffy 2y ago
  They also have the MI300A-based servers. I’d love to misuse one as a workstation.

catkitcourt 2y ago

Maybe consider prevent Intel and RST. They are nightmare out of factory.

userbinator 2y ago

Normally, you would see this screen that allows you to switch storage modes And back when PCs were far more open, good old IDE was always an option too. Ever since BIOS became EFI, and flash ROMs started getting much bigger, it seems they've not been adding functionality but removing it slowly. The excuse is often "security" (against the user), and "legacy" (the oldest interfaces are also the most widely understood and stable). That said, I'd stay away from the "prebuilt" manufacturers like Dell, Lenovo, HP, etc. if you want configurability. They've always had far less options in their BIOS than equivalent offerings from "enthusiast" or "gamer" oriented companies, although in the laptop space it's more difficult to do that.

JJMcJ 2y ago
If you're lucky enough to live in an area that still has small computer shops you can also get made to order if you aren't up to making one yourself. In Silicon Valley you can go to Central Computer, though they aren't a tiny neighborhood shop by any means. For laptops you might buy a Linux laptop.
- distortedsignal 2y ago
  When you say “made to order” - you’re talking about desktops, ya? Not laptops? If there are made to order laptops, I need to see that. I’m planning on using Central for a PC build in a month or so - definitely going to try to stretch my dollars.
  - mattnewton 2y ago
    This used to be a thing- I remember my father excitedly configuring a made-to-order laptop from ZipZoomFly[0] back in the day. I think that the market wasn’t kind to them though, the ecosystem about replaceable laptop parts never matured to the point where it was competitive with the proprietary designs, and standards constantly changed because of the form factor’ constraints, so the dream of just replacing a single part never materialized. Closest thing to that dream now is the framework laptop, which does have replaceable parts. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZipZoomfly https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZipZoomfly]

walterbell 2y ago

> We are slowly being boiled to the point of no return. We need some kind of consortium for users to represent our interests otherwise in 10 or 20 years we will have very limited choice when it comes to computer technology. For servers purchased in bulk by hyperscalers, OpenCompute has done a great job of coordinating owner requirements for hardware and firmware delivered by ODMs and silicon vendors in the server supply chain. Founded by Facebook, OCP built on the pioneering ethos of whitebox servers at early Google Search. To create a similar organization for clients, one would need to pool enough buying power to influence the supply chain for "PC" (x86/Arm) client devices. OCP bypassed Tier 1 OEMs and worked directly with Taiwan ODMs. This worked because hyperscalers could implement custom firmware and do their own support. The closest existing client vendor might be Framework, which has not yet managed open-source firmware. Plus Clevo (coreboot) OEMs. DMTF [2] might have some interest. A possible baby step towards open clients would be an OCP reference design for a "privileged access workstation" to access security-sensitive administrator web consoles for hyperscaler clouds. Include both a discrete TPM and an open silicon root of trust (OCP MS Caliptra or Google OpenTitan are both open firmware). AMD OpenSIL has promised OSS client firmware by 2026 and AMD mini-PC boards are everywhere. The building blocks are present for a high-integrity reference client with open firmware, under control of the client-owning cloud customer. With suitable licensing, anyone from Tier1 PC OEMs or small vendors could create custom derivatives of the OCP reference client IF they retain mandatory core properties like open firmware and open silicon RoT. We could intentionally reboot the accidentally-open IBM PC ecosystem, at least for the small niche of secure cloud administration. If the OCP reference client is successful, it could motivate a new client-focused org for open client hardware. [1] https://www.opencompute.org https://www.opencompute.org [2] https://www.dmtf.org https://www.dmtf.org

jsheard 2y ago
Although on the subject of hyperscaler hardware and restricted closed ecosystems, AMD EPYC processors have that nice feature which allows OEMs to permanently vendor-lock the processor to their hardware on first boot, so you can't take a chip from a Dell server and stick it in a non-Dell server for example. If you're buying a random surplus EPYC processor you might not even be able to know which vendor it's bound to until you try it.

biando 2y ago

I consider myself a mediocre geek and a big fan of the look and feel of the DELL Optiplex 7020 SFF. Without diving into too many details, I typically buy around 3-4 of them yearly (i5 CPU, 16 GB RAM, 256 GB disk) and add an additional 1 TB drive. I always replace the OS with Ubuntu. Do you have any recommendations for an alternative machine? I’m looking for a solid, reliable workhorse that could serve for years. My current DELL setup has never failed or let me down, and I’d like to find something within a similar budget that I can rely on for constant use for years.

yencabulator 2y ago
You said SFF -> I recently got a https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-um890pro https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-um890pro and it's been great in the small computer category.
- heraldgeezer 2y ago
  The whole point is that used business machines are way cheaper... like 50/60 each maybe 100-120 max.
  - yencabulator 2y ago
    Ah, used changes the game. I optimized for compilation speed (in the tiny box category), so a used Dell would not have helped me.
    - heraldgeezer 2y ago
      Companies sell these off after just a few years as warranty goes out. You can pick up 2019/2020 machines on ebay. Fast enough for most things.
      - yencabulator 2y ago
        There's no such thing as "fast enough" for Rust compilation. I'm putting the AMD CPU, 96 GB RAM, and a fast NVMe all to good use and still have time for a sword fight..

amluto 2y ago

This issue goes back a long way, and the blame goes to a combination of OEMs and Intel (and AMD) wanting to sell RAID solutions without needing real RAID hardware, and the Intel CPU and chipset teams playing along in ways that they really should not have. In the AHCI era (and earlier), drives connected to a SATA controller, and there were three ways this could work: a) The controller was just a controller. Perhaps it appeared as an AHCI device over PCI. No funny business, and the OS could talk to the drive more or less directly via the controller. b) Hardware, at at least hardware-ish, RAID. A RAID controller speaks SATA to the drives, and the OS speaks some protocol to the controller. It’s possible for the protocol to be obnoxious and to require obnoxious drivers and/or management software, but at least it makes sense. c) Software “RAID” that pretends to be hardware. The CPU really does speak AHCI to the drive, but the vendor has decided to make it pretend to be a high end vendor thing and to integrate it with BIOS. But this is a mess, since the controller really is AHCI. So some hack is done to prevent the OS’s native driver from noticing the AHCI devices and instead let a (generally very bad) vendor “driver” that is actually a full RAID stack claim the devices. This could be as simple as firmware asking the AHCI controller not to report AHCI compatibility. Intel has also enabled this through multiple generations of disgusting kludges. Enter NVMe. Unlike SATA, there is no controller. NVMe drives are PCIe devices. So the choices are different: a) Vendor does nothing except boot support. NVMe drives show up on PCIe just like anything else would. b) Vendor has an actual RAID controller. It’s a device that speaks PCIe to the NVMe devices and, itself, acts as an NVMe (or AHCI) device as seen by the OS. This could work fine, but it’s unlikely to be as fast as the drives themselves (NVMe is fast). c) A truly atrocious hack, again enabled by Intel, in which firmware can ask the Intel PCIe hardware to straight up lie to the OS about what devices are connected. The hardware will try to identify NVMe drives that it’s supposed to hide (which is itself a mess — these drives are all actually just PCIe devices, and there is no reliable way in general to figure out which devices are supposed to be hidden). Then some magic “RAID” driver will do some other kludge to talk to the NVMe devices behind the OS’s back and pretend to be a disk itself. Of course it works poorly. In any case, I wonder if the OP’s machine is actually an example of (b), where the NVMe drives, presumably connected to a fancy backplane, are genuinely connected via PCIe to an actual RAID controller, not the CPU or chipset. If so, a firmware option for “native NVMe” would make no sense, and the actual correct solution is for the OP to arrange for the Windows installer to use the right driver. This has been officially supported, usually in some annoying way, since at least Windows NT 4.0 and probably for quite a bit longer.

Avlin67 2y ago

AHCI with typo... oh boy

detourdog 2y ago

This is only true for very sophisticated computing. From my point of view general purpose computing is alive and and every bit as free as the good old days. The only barriers are points of view. Here is just one example of computing that has no limits on problem solving. The only limits are scale and what good is scale anyway. Problems solved at scale are too general and over complex for most individuals problems. https://hackaday.com/2019/09/09/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-padauk-mcus-and-more/ https://hackaday.com/2019/09/09/everything-you-wanted-to-kno...

heraldgeezer 2y ago
>This is only true for very sophisticated computing Like a bog-standard Dell??
- detourdog 2y ago
  Not familiar with bog-standards. The form-factor and footprint of most desktop computers is simple inertia of the current tooling and mindset.

heraldgeezer 2y ago

Reddit sysadmin sub discussing this https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/1hp3sst/pc_hardware_companies_slowly_driving_technology/ https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/1hp3sst/pc_hardwa...

999900000999 2y ago

Blame Microsoft. Across multiple laptops the Win 11 iso doesn't have Wifi drivers. And since we're in hell, you can't finish the setup process and actually use your computer without an Internet connection. Since then you'd be able to run an installer for the WiFi drivers. Luckily you can use an Android phone to create an Internet bridge which will allow you to proceed. However, The OEMs will automatically install CrapWare( we should start calling it this) even on vanilla Windows installs. Compared to my last few CachyOS installs where everything just works out of the box. I don't need to provide my email address to use my computer. Honestly as long as I can disable secureboot and install Linux it's ok. The moment I can't do this I'll be using legacy hardware ( or import a laptop from the EU where this is banned). Edit: Hopefully the EU will make secure boot an option we can disable... To be fair normal people don't care. My friend needed a new laptop, and since she's not too worried about the latest specs I just picked up what I could find at target for 300$. She is never going to reinstall. When Windows messes itself up in a year or two she'll probably just buy another 300$ laptop.

nrp 2y ago
We’ve taken to recommending Rufus in our setup guides rather than the Windows installation media tool due to the lack of recent Wi-Fi drivers in vanilla Windows.
LtWorf 2y ago
Good thing that now the regular debian image includes non free firmwares so wifi cards work during the setup!
userbinator 2y ago
However, The OEMs will automatically install CrapWare( we should start calling it this) even on vanilla Windows installs. MS itself started doing that in Win10.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  Only on Windows Home, though. Windows Professional has none of that bullshit and I've done many installs. Anyone who is this passionate about computers should be buying a Professional license anyway, namely to get proper access to Group Policy and other things peasants won't care for.

Sparkyte 2y ago

Everyone wants to be the next Apple.

bpye 2y ago

You could probably export the drivers from the OEM media and then use those with stock install media [0]. [0] - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/module/dism/export-windowsdriver?view=windowsserver2025-ps https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/module/dism/exp...

Aurornis 2y ago
This is the answer. Yes, it’s unfortunate that Dell didn’t put this specific driver on their website for this specific model. However, I think the simplest explanation is that Dell is getting lazy with their driver coverage on their website, not some conspiracy to slowly boil the industry alive. Use the common tools for exporting a driver from the OEM media if you can’t find it online.

pjmlp 2y ago

PCs are only open because IBM failed to keep it closed, that wasn't the plan. They became the exception among 16 bit systems in regards to openness, and while it contributed to PC taking over everything else, OEMS want their margins back.

piyuv 2y ago
EFF has an excellent article on this: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/08/ibm-pc-compatible-how-adversarial-interoperability-saved-pcs-monopolization https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/08/ibm-pc-compatible-how-...
kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
They published schematics and the BIOS listing. If their plan was to stay closed they went about it in a peculiar way.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  No they didn't, read on Compaq clean room reverse engineering, the lawsuit, and IBM's failed attempt to regain the PC market with MCA and PS/2, after losing it.
  - kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
    IBM 5150 Technical Reference Manual from 1984. The 1981 version is also floating around. The commented BIOS starts on page 123. https://archive.org/details/IBMPCIBM5150TechnicalReference6322507APR84/page/n2/mode/1up https://archive.org/details/IBMPCIBM5150TechnicalReference63...
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_compatible https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_compatible "By June 1983 PC Magazine defined "PC 'clone'" as "a computer [that can] accommodate the user who takes a disk home from an IBM PC, walks across the room, and plugs it into the 'foreign' machine".[7] Demand for the PC by then was so strong that dealers received 60% or less of the inventory they wanted,[8] and many customers purchased clones instead.[9][10][11] Columbia Data Products produced the first computer more or less compatible with the IBM PC standard during June 1982, soon followed by Eagle Computer. Compaq announced its first product, an IBM PC compatible in November 1982, the Compaq Portable. The Compaq was the first sewing machine-sized portable computer that was essentially 100% PC-compatible. The court decision in Apple v. Franklin, was that BIOS code was protected by copyright law, but it could reverse-engineer the IBM BIOS and then write its own BIOS using clean room design. Note this was over a year after Compaq released the Portable. The money and research put into reverse-engineering the BIOS was a calculated risk. " Copyright law and clean room design being the magic words. Followed a couple of years later with, "Compaq, IBM Reach Broad Patent-Sharing Agreement" https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-07-15-fi-3046-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-07-15-fi-3046-s...

creatonez 2y ago

Dell is a horrible horrible company. Constantly trying to trick and deceive users.

bradfa 2y ago

It’s probably about $3M to design, manufacture, and bring to market a modern PC mainboard with semi custom firmware today. There’s no money in making an open and hackable system today because the dozens of customers simply won’t make back the up front cost. Look at Raptor Computing, super open super focused on hackability, but selling in dozens to hundreds of units because their customer is a niche market.

wmf 2y ago
Raptor is mostly failing because their price/performance is terrible. An x86 Raptor would be much more compelling.
- bradfa 2y ago
  When they came out with the POWER9 systems originally the price to performance wasn’t that bad. It’s been a while since then. But also they seem to have known their market so priced it to hopefully be a sustainable business to recover the engineering costs.
  - wmf 2y ago
    priced it to hopefully be a sustainable business to recover the engineering costs Yeah, that's the part that doesn't work. You have to eat losses on (at least) the first generation to succeed.
    - bradfa 2y ago
      Losing money to enter a market requires a lot of money. This generally only happens in a big company, which is the current market where no one cares about being open or hackable, or VC funding, which has historically been anti-open and anti-hackable in the long run. VC money has made first or second generation products which are in that direction but longer term has not had a great record. I think Raptor’s plan was/is the right one but the market of consumers who will pay extra to get that openness is quite small. Framework is close. They’ve had a LOT of VC money.

gmueckl 2y ago

I can't remember whether it was Dell or Compaq that had non-standard power supply wiring in their PCs many, many years ago. This game isn't new.

probablybetter 2y ago

It boggles my mind that the entirety of the hardware world cannot accept the simple concept of making computer hardware capable of booting and running <latest open source operating systems literally purpose-built to take advantage of general hardware standards the Hardware Manufacturers WERE ALREADY MAKING for Microsoft Windows (TM)> I mean, it's not like Linux didn't spend 30 frikkin' years specifically aping hardware that carried the WIntel brand from the IBM PC with MS-DOS up to WindozeWhatever13 or whatever they are up to now... I cannot fathom the strange incentivization schema that would cause the entirety of the existing mass-retail OEM computer production to be "Windows ONLY" and actively contributing to literally selling LESS of their own units via efforts to lock their own hardware against running your own damned OS upon it! I buy hardware I can run Linux on. I have no use for Microsoft Windows in any capacity for any purpose, period. end of story. Hardware Manufacturers please take note! (I remain puzzled... Dell even sells some preloaded Linux laptops, IIRC... what gives, Dell?)

wmf 2y ago
Dell even sells some preloaded Linux laptops, IIRC... what gives, Dell? What gives is that the Developer Edition gives them permission to make the other models 110% Windows-only because "if you want Linux just buy the Developer Edition". In their minds there is no reason to make the normal edition support Linux.

anal_reactor 2y ago

One trick that I have discovered that does wonders in a wide array of scenarios is to run OS installation inside a visual machine with a real drive connected.

mjmas 2y ago

The Dell website does provide the RST drivers. For the Inspiron Laptop 16, the RST drivers are found under the driver category, not the firmware category (which is what the screenshot shows in the article). For the desktop, the driver appears under Recommended drivers. That being said, I recently did a dual boot install (on an MSI motherboard) with Windows and Pop!_OS and the Linux install went much smoother than Windows. For Windows I had to get the RST drivers and run the setup exe in extract mode in order to get drivers that worked during initial install. And Windows also didn't even include an Ethernet driver by default.