5 ms·

Shockingly common in civilian aviation, it’s actually one of the most common causes for accidents. Not sure about commercial but it was not uncommon in the mili

by verelo 2y ago

Shockingly common in civilian aviation, it’s actually one of the most common causes for accidents. Not sure about commercial but it was not uncommon in the military in the 50s.

AYBABTME 2y ago
Seems quasi-impossible on a commercial airliner. This thing is going to beep and alert like hell about the landing gears being up. The most likely cause is a complex series of event that led to the landing gears not coming down. Landing gears have multiple redundancies so this is predictably going to be an unfortunately very informative investigation for the aviation sector.
- sio8ohPi 2y ago
  It has happened before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_International_Airlines_Flight_8303 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_International_Airline...
- cjbprime 2y ago
  If your engine had a bird strike than the system is already beeping and alerting like hell.
  - AYBABTME 2y ago
    The more likely scenario to me is that they attempted a go-around after the bird strike and failed, leading them to land with gears up, no flaps, at high speed.
wis 2y ago
Not an aviation expert or enthusiast, but I'd imagine in a commercial airliner if the gear was not deployed and the pilot was trying to land, at a certain point the plane would start yelling at the crew something like "NO GEAR" "NO GEAR" "NO GEAR (deployed)" So I don't think a pilot can just "forget" to deploy the landing gear in a commercial airliner.
- fransje26 2y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_International_Airlines_Flight_8303 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_International_Airli...
- selimthegrim 2y ago
  TOO LOW GEAR
- snypher 2y ago
  I think the 777 landing gear warning is based on flap position, eg flaps 0 you won't get a warning, but you will probably get a GPWS configuration warning instead!
  - aaronmdjones 2y ago
    > I think the 777 landing gear warning is based on flap position It isn't. If you're within a thousand feet of terrain, a runway is nearby, and you're at an approach for landing speed, it blares "TOO LOW, GEAR" in the cockpit over and over again. If you're going faster than approach for landing speed or there is no runway, it instead blares "TOO LOW, TERRAIN". Likewise if you deploy more than flaps 20 without the gear extended (regardless of your height above terrain or the presence of any runway), you get a master warning and "CONFIG GEAR" in red on the EICAS.
- buildsjets 2y ago
  Youtube is full of examples pilots landing gear up, with the gear-up warning system clearly blaring in the background. https://youtu.be/5McECUtM8fw?si=DwasT3T_9vHxLczn https://youtu.be/5McECUtM8fw?si=DwasT3T_9vHxLczn This does not only happen to little propeller airplanes. Heres an Airbus A320 where the pilot managed to land gear up despite the presence of all kinds of safeguards and automation. https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/pia-a320-crews-fatal-landing-gear-error-occurred-during-badly-managed-approach/157129.article https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/pia-a320-crews-fatal-lan... Humans are funny animals.
- likeabatterycar 2y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gINDzJXpMLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gINDzJXpMLU
wat10000 2y ago
They say there are two kinds of pilots: those who have landed gear up, and those who will. I’ve seen it happen with small planes three times. It should be quite rare on airliners due to having two pilots and good warning systems. It’s plausible that the pilot would forget, but both of them forgetting and never noticing the plane screaming at them is unlikely.
- Eavolution 2y ago
  It has happened before due to another higher priority warning suppressing the "too low, gear" warning, so if there's a lot going on already including other warnings, it's not inconceivable that it was overlooked and the plane didn't issue a warning depending on the circumstances.
- verelo 2y ago
  I want to agree but it has happened before, and with the stress of some other failure it’s not going to be impossible…but it should be super rare.
  - wat10000 2y ago
    It’s definitely not impossible. Pilots can get fixated. “That noise is so annoying! Never mind, gotta finish this landing.” It’s rare enough that I think it’s not the way to bet here, and there was probably another problem. But we’ll have to wait for more info to know for sure.
- likeabatterycar 2y ago
  > It’s plausible that the pilot would forget, but both of them forgetting and never noticing Not drawing premature conclusions here without evidence, but Asian airlines and aviation culture have a documented history of the co-pilot not questioning fatal actions by the captain in order to save face.
- buildsjets 2y ago
  I know someone who had a no gear low-approach and prop strike, pulled up, got the gear down, and landed straight ahead. Not sure what to call that one, but I bet that pilot won’t do it again.
Figs 2y ago
If the plane can tell it's super low the ground -- low enough to sound an alarm for it -- and that's a common mistake... why not just have the plane automatically deploy the landing gear?
- hansvm 2y ago
  Doing so complicates other hairy scenarios because of the increased hydraulic/power demands, reduced clearance, increased drag on the plane, worse handling, and the fact that in some emergencies you want a gear-up landing and would expect pilots to simply make the opposite error (forgetting about the gear being automatically deployed) some fraction of the time.
  - Figs 2y ago
    Hmm. Are those situations more likely than forgetting to put the gear down? (Serious question -- I don't know the answer, and I'm curious.)
    - hansvm 2y ago
      I think so, and they're definitely more severe. Gear-up landings occur in something like 1/150k flights, and they're rarely fatal. Stalls happen in roughly 1/100k, near-stalls more frequently, and if unrecovered then they are almost always fatal. The one plane I know of with auto-retracting gear had a fatal stall because of the feature, so it's not exactly a theoretical argument, but there haven't been a lot of empirical studies.
      - agubelu 2y ago
        You're talking about GA flights, not commercial ones, right? I do not believe that a gear-up landing occurs once a day on average in commercial airliners.
    - tekla 2y ago
      You do not want auto gear down. There are situations where having the gear down might makes much much worse and you might not be able to be in a situation where you can bring them back up.
hackernewds 2y ago
this is why there are 2 pilots? doesn't add up
- fransje26 2y ago
  More pilots doesn't necessarily help.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951

by verelo 2y ago

Shockingly common in civilian aviation, it’s actually one of the most common causes for accidents. Not sure about commercial but it was not uncommon in the military in the 50s.

AYBABTME 2y ago

Seems quasi-impossible on a commercial airliner. This thing is going to beep and alert like hell about the landing gears being up. The most likely cause is a complex series of event that led to the landing gears not coming down. Landing gears have multiple redundancies so this is predictably going to be an unfortunately very informative investigation for the aviation sector.

sio8ohPi 2y ago
It has happened before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_International_Airlines_Flight_8303 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_International_Airline...
cjbprime 2y ago
If your engine had a bird strike than the system is already beeping and alerting like hell.
- AYBABTME 2y ago
  The more likely scenario to me is that they attempted a go-around after the bird strike and failed, leading them to land with gears up, no flaps, at high speed.

wis 2y ago

Not an aviation expert or enthusiast, but I'd imagine in a commercial airliner if the gear was not deployed and the pilot was trying to land, at a certain point the plane would start yelling at the crew something like "NO GEAR" "NO GEAR" "NO GEAR (deployed)" So I don't think a pilot can just "forget" to deploy the landing gear in a commercial airliner.

fransje26 2y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_International_Airlines_Flight_8303 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_International_Airli...
selimthegrim 2y ago
TOO LOW GEAR
snypher 2y ago
I think the 777 landing gear warning is based on flap position, eg flaps 0 you won't get a warning, but you will probably get a GPWS configuration warning instead!
- aaronmdjones 2y ago
  > I think the 777 landing gear warning is based on flap position It isn't. If you're within a thousand feet of terrain, a runway is nearby, and you're at an approach for landing speed, it blares "TOO LOW, GEAR" in the cockpit over and over again. If you're going faster than approach for landing speed or there is no runway, it instead blares "TOO LOW, TERRAIN". Likewise if you deploy more than flaps 20 without the gear extended (regardless of your height above terrain or the presence of any runway), you get a master warning and "CONFIG GEAR" in red on the EICAS.
buildsjets 2y ago
Youtube is full of examples pilots landing gear up, with the gear-up warning system clearly blaring in the background. https://youtu.be/5McECUtM8fw?si=DwasT3T_9vHxLczn https://youtu.be/5McECUtM8fw?si=DwasT3T_9vHxLczn This does not only happen to little propeller airplanes. Heres an Airbus A320 where the pilot managed to land gear up despite the presence of all kinds of safeguards and automation. https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/pia-a320-crews-fatal-landing-gear-error-occurred-during-badly-managed-approach/157129.article https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/pia-a320-crews-fatal-lan... Humans are funny animals.
likeabatterycar 2y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gINDzJXpMLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gINDzJXpMLU

wat10000 2y ago

They say there are two kinds of pilots: those who have landed gear up, and those who will. I’ve seen it happen with small planes three times. It should be quite rare on airliners due to having two pilots and good warning systems. It’s plausible that the pilot would forget, but both of them forgetting and never noticing the plane screaming at them is unlikely.

Eavolution 2y ago
It has happened before due to another higher priority warning suppressing the "too low, gear" warning, so if there's a lot going on already including other warnings, it's not inconceivable that it was overlooked and the plane didn't issue a warning depending on the circumstances.
verelo 2y ago
I want to agree but it has happened before, and with the stress of some other failure it’s not going to be impossible…but it should be super rare.
- wat10000 2y ago
  It’s definitely not impossible. Pilots can get fixated. “That noise is so annoying! Never mind, gotta finish this landing.” It’s rare enough that I think it’s not the way to bet here, and there was probably another problem. But we’ll have to wait for more info to know for sure.
likeabatterycar 2y ago
> It’s plausible that the pilot would forget, but both of them forgetting and never noticing Not drawing premature conclusions here without evidence, but Asian airlines and aviation culture have a documented history of the co-pilot not questioning fatal actions by the captain in order to save face.
buildsjets 2y ago
I know someone who had a no gear low-approach and prop strike, pulled up, got the gear down, and landed straight ahead. Not sure what to call that one, but I bet that pilot won’t do it again.

Figs 2y ago

If the plane can tell it's super low the ground -- low enough to sound an alarm for it -- and that's a common mistake... why not just have the plane automatically deploy the landing gear?

hansvm 2y ago
Doing so complicates other hairy scenarios because of the increased hydraulic/power demands, reduced clearance, increased drag on the plane, worse handling, and the fact that in some emergencies you want a gear-up landing and would expect pilots to simply make the opposite error (forgetting about the gear being automatically deployed) some fraction of the time.
- Figs 2y ago
  Hmm. Are those situations more likely than forgetting to put the gear down? (Serious question -- I don't know the answer, and I'm curious.)
  - hansvm 2y ago
    I think so, and they're definitely more severe. Gear-up landings occur in something like 1/150k flights, and they're rarely fatal. Stalls happen in roughly 1/100k, near-stalls more frequently, and if unrecovered then they are almost always fatal. The one plane I know of with auto-retracting gear had a fatal stall because of the feature, so it's not exactly a theoretical argument, but there haven't been a lot of empirical studies.
    - agubelu 2y ago
      You're talking about GA flights, not commercial ones, right? I do not believe that a gear-up landing occurs once a day on average in commercial airliners.
  - tekla 2y ago
    You do not want auto gear down. There are situations where having the gear down might makes much much worse and you might not be able to be in a situation where you can bring them back up.

hackernewds 2y ago

this is why there are 2 pilots? doesn't add up

fransje26 2y ago
More pilots doesn't necessarily help.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951