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I agree with this approach. In this field, unless you're hiring a junior engineer, you can have a reasonable expectation that a potential candidate will fly ou

I agree with this approach. In this field, unless you're hiring a junior engineer, you can have a reasonable expectation that a potential candidate will fly out for an interview even if it's a 100% remote job. If they refuse, well, there's a chance it's just because they can't afford to. The chance is far greater, though, that you dodged a bullet.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kevinventullo 2y ago
To be clear, you expect candidates to fly out on their own dime just for the interview?
- throwawayq3423 2y ago
  It's more about the reaction by obvious scammers.
  - Teever 2y ago
    You're talking about the entity trying to make people spend a nontrivial sum of money, time, and effort to get a job, right?
  - dallasg3 2y ago
    What’s the scam? Get a job they can’t do…continue to get paid?
    - cj 2y ago
      1 paycheck of just a few thousand dollars USD is a lot of money in other countries. The scam is hold on to the job for at least 1 paycheck. It’s a expensive for companies to (legally) fire people, so if you get hired you typically can get at least a few grand even if you do zero work.
      - throwawayq3423 2y ago
        > It’s a expensive for companies to (legally) fire people Maybe in Europe, in the US it's an email.
    - michaelt 2y ago
      Due to the wealth disparities involved, a month’s Silicon Valley money is a years income for a scammer in a poor country. So just produce LLM-level code, make excuses, say you’re learning the code base, get lots of help from colleagues, turn in mediocre work, and if you can hang on for three months before they fire you - that’s decent money!
      - olddustytrail 2y ago
        Hell, you might even get promoted to management!
        dallasg3 2y ago
        > So just produce LLM-level code, make excuses, say you’re learning the code base, get lots of help from colleagues, turn in mediocre work If they switched from doing all this to pressing people for estimates.
      - throwawayq3423 2y ago
        Yep, with very little upfront cost needed.
- roland35 2y ago
  I think the expectation is that any travel is paid for by the company. I've even had a per diem given to me to pay for meals as well.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    That was always the norm for me.
- bovermyer 2y ago
  Not candidates for a position I'm hiring for, no. But positions that I'm applying to? I'm senior enough now that if I can't negotiate a paid-travel interview, clearly I either don't care enough and should cross that opportunity off my list, or it's tempting enough that I don't care.
kortilla 2y ago
I can’t imagine you actually work in the US in software and expect candidates to pay to fly out for an interview. I would withdraw from the process immediately if I encountered a company so cheap
- paradox460 2y ago
  Not only withdraw, but post publicly about said company. That's so beyond the pale it's gotta be a joke
  - edmundsauto 2y ago
    I’ve flown myself out for interviews at companies that were dream jobs. Think: sports industries, not insurance companies. They tended to be small and didn’t have the resources to put together reservations (and would have taken months to figure out budgeting situations) Yes, I wanted to work for them so badly it was well worth the risk. Sometimes you see opportunities and want to pay for them.
    - the_snooze 2y ago
      >They tended to be small and didn’t have the resources to put together reservations (and would have taken months to figure out budgeting situations) This makes no sense. If they can't afford a one-off line item like travel arrangements, how can they possibly make payroll reliably? You're describing either a company with no financial buffer, or one that's asking prospective applicants to subsidize them.
      - edmundsauto 2y ago
        I don’t have a generalized answer, but they have been making it, I guess is the answer? It’s been over 6 years since I interviewed, but talking with friends they haven’t missed a payroll. Sometimes smoke indicates a fire, sometimes it indicates bbq I guess.
      - throwaway48476 2y ago
gbear605 2y ago
I agree, though you should pay. The scammers aren’t going to take you up, because they know that the in person will catch them out. Obviously that’s a financial burden to the company, but minimal compared to the long term costs to the company of an employee.
biztos 2y ago
What do you mean by "can't afford to?" Because you can't possibly mean you think candidates are going to fly out for an interview at their own expense. Traditionally (i.e. pre-Covid) flying out a senior candidate was the standard signal that both sides were taking the process seriously. And for competitive hires, the quality of the hotel and the restaurants they were taken to and the seniority of the people who joined for dinner were all very important indicators. I've been working remote since 2009 but I kinda miss the old ways.
- benhurmarcel 2y ago
  For seniors maybe but for juniors it’s not rare to have to fly out in your own dime unfortunately. For finding my first job I had to pay for a few trips myself (flights and hotel).
  - semiquaver 2y ago
    Just to counter your anecdote with another of equal value, the only time I’ve ever traveled for an interview was for my first software dev job when I had zero experience. Flight and hotel was paid for by the company. I’ve never heard of anyone other than an employer paying for interview travel expenses.
    - BehindBlueEyes 2y ago
      Same, I was always either able to interview fully remotely or had my trip and hotel paid for even for junior roles.
- neilv 2y ago
  > the quality of the hotel and the restaurants they were taken to and the seniority of the people who joined for dinner were all very important indicators. I maybe once misinterpreted this. I was flattered to be having dinner with the well-regarded co-founder and two other highly-ranked people, but I thought the nice hotel and the fancy restaurant was just their everyday extravagant lifestyle. Despite being obviously unfamiliar and uncomfortable with the affluent lifestyle conventions, I did get the offer. Had I known that the nice restaurant and VIPs might be specifically to say that they valued me, I would've been more likely to accept the offer.
jland10 2y ago
I have 15 YOE and I am a very qualified senior candidate, at least IMO. There is no world where I would take an interview that I had to fly out and stay at a hotel on my own dime. That would 100% sound like some sort of scam job to me.
- deepsquirrelnet 2y ago
  I’ve seen the movie Dead Man. No way am I paying my own flight and lodging costs for a potential employer that has no accountability to me.
- casenmgreen 2y ago
  Seconded. Fly out and hotel yes, on own dime, no.
cj 2y ago
Can’t edit the comment anymore. But it’s implied that the company would pay for all travel. The “gotcha” is that the company would also see the departing airport, which exposes foreign candidates posing as US citizens.
runako 2y ago
> it's just because they can't afford to Wait, is this another norm that corporate America broke in the last couple of decades? Do people now expect to pay to fly to interviews? When did this happen?
- ponector 2y ago
  I have a better idea: pay to get through every step of the recruiting process, with steep increase for each stage. Who paid the most - get the job!
  - BehindBlueEyes 2y ago
    There's already industries that think you should pay them for the honor to work for them. (at least companies within said industries i worked for, in gaming, luxury, sports... it's not uncommon). I'm surprised they didn't charge for applications but they'll definitely pay lower wages because the rest is paid for by having their name on your resume.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

kevinventullo 2y ago

To be clear, you expect candidates to fly out on their own dime just for the interview?

throwawayq3423 2y ago
It's more about the reaction by obvious scammers.
- Teever 2y ago
  You're talking about the entity trying to make people spend a nontrivial sum of money, time, and effort to get a job, right?
- dallasg3 2y ago
  What’s the scam? Get a job they can’t do…continue to get paid?
  - cj 2y ago
    1 paycheck of just a few thousand dollars USD is a lot of money in other countries. The scam is hold on to the job for at least 1 paycheck. It’s a expensive for companies to (legally) fire people, so if you get hired you typically can get at least a few grand even if you do zero work.
    - throwawayq3423 2y ago
      > It’s a expensive for companies to (legally) fire people Maybe in Europe, in the US it's an email.
  - michaelt 2y ago
    Due to the wealth disparities involved, a month’s Silicon Valley money is a years income for a scammer in a poor country. So just produce LLM-level code, make excuses, say you’re learning the code base, get lots of help from colleagues, turn in mediocre work, and if you can hang on for three months before they fire you - that’s decent money!
    - olddustytrail 2y ago
      Hell, you might even get promoted to management!
      - dallasg3 2y ago
        > So just produce LLM-level code, make excuses, say you’re learning the code base, get lots of help from colleagues, turn in mediocre work If they switched from doing all this to pressing people for estimates.
    - throwawayq3423 2y ago
      Yep, with very little upfront cost needed.
roland35 2y ago
I think the expectation is that any travel is paid for by the company. I've even had a per diem given to me to pay for meals as well.
- ghaff 2y ago
  That was always the norm for me.
bovermyer 2y ago
Not candidates for a position I'm hiring for, no. But positions that I'm applying to? I'm senior enough now that if I can't negotiate a paid-travel interview, clearly I either don't care enough and should cross that opportunity off my list, or it's tempting enough that I don't care.

kortilla 2y ago

I can’t imagine you actually work in the US in software and expect candidates to pay to fly out for an interview. I would withdraw from the process immediately if I encountered a company so cheap

paradox460 2y ago
Not only withdraw, but post publicly about said company. That's so beyond the pale it's gotta be a joke
- edmundsauto 2y ago
  I’ve flown myself out for interviews at companies that were dream jobs. Think: sports industries, not insurance companies. They tended to be small and didn’t have the resources to put together reservations (and would have taken months to figure out budgeting situations) Yes, I wanted to work for them so badly it was well worth the risk. Sometimes you see opportunities and want to pay for them.
  - the_snooze 2y ago
    >They tended to be small and didn’t have the resources to put together reservations (and would have taken months to figure out budgeting situations) This makes no sense. If they can't afford a one-off line item like travel arrangements, how can they possibly make payroll reliably? You're describing either a company with no financial buffer, or one that's asking prospective applicants to subsidize them.
    - edmundsauto 2y ago
      I don’t have a generalized answer, but they have been making it, I guess is the answer? It’s been over 6 years since I interviewed, but talking with friends they haven’t missed a payroll. Sometimes smoke indicates a fire, sometimes it indicates bbq I guess.
    - throwaway48476 2y ago

gbear605 2y ago

I agree, though you should pay. The scammers aren’t going to take you up, because they know that the in person will catch them out. Obviously that’s a financial burden to the company, but minimal compared to the long term costs to the company of an employee.

biztos 2y ago

What do you mean by "can't afford to?" Because you can't possibly mean you think candidates are going to fly out for an interview at their own expense. Traditionally (i.e. pre-Covid) flying out a senior candidate was the standard signal that both sides were taking the process seriously. And for competitive hires, the quality of the hotel and the restaurants they were taken to and the seniority of the people who joined for dinner were all very important indicators. I've been working remote since 2009 but I kinda miss the old ways.

benhurmarcel 2y ago
For seniors maybe but for juniors it’s not rare to have to fly out in your own dime unfortunately. For finding my first job I had to pay for a few trips myself (flights and hotel).
- semiquaver 2y ago
  Just to counter your anecdote with another of equal value, the only time I’ve ever traveled for an interview was for my first software dev job when I had zero experience. Flight and hotel was paid for by the company. I’ve never heard of anyone other than an employer paying for interview travel expenses.
  - BehindBlueEyes 2y ago
    Same, I was always either able to interview fully remotely or had my trip and hotel paid for even for junior roles.
neilv 2y ago
> the quality of the hotel and the restaurants they were taken to and the seniority of the people who joined for dinner were all very important indicators. I maybe once misinterpreted this. I was flattered to be having dinner with the well-regarded co-founder and two other highly-ranked people, but I thought the nice hotel and the fancy restaurant was just their everyday extravagant lifestyle. Despite being obviously unfamiliar and uncomfortable with the affluent lifestyle conventions, I did get the offer. Had I known that the nice restaurant and VIPs might be specifically to say that they valued me, I would've been more likely to accept the offer.

jland10 2y ago

I have 15 YOE and I am a very qualified senior candidate, at least IMO. There is no world where I would take an interview that I had to fly out and stay at a hotel on my own dime. That would 100% sound like some sort of scam job to me.

deepsquirrelnet 2y ago
I’ve seen the movie Dead Man. No way am I paying my own flight and lodging costs for a potential employer that has no accountability to me.
casenmgreen 2y ago
Seconded. Fly out and hotel yes, on own dime, no.

cj 2y ago

Can’t edit the comment anymore. But it’s implied that the company would pay for all travel. The “gotcha” is that the company would also see the departing airport, which exposes foreign candidates posing as US citizens.

runako 2y ago

> it's just because they can't afford to Wait, is this another norm that corporate America broke in the last couple of decades? Do people now expect to pay to fly to interviews? When did this happen?

ponector 2y ago
I have a better idea: pay to get through every step of the recruiting process, with steep increase for each stage. Who paid the most - get the job!
- BehindBlueEyes 2y ago
  There's already industries that think you should pay them for the honor to work for them. (at least companies within said industries i worked for, in gaming, luxury, sports... it's not uncommon). I'm surprised they didn't charge for applications but they'll definitely pay lower wages because the rest is paid for by having their name on your resume.