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This is going on a tangent, but I would like to point out to you that Atheism is itself a religion: It's a belief in no god(s), a belief in refuting god(s). I'

This is going on a tangent, but I would like to point out to you that Atheism is itself a religion: It's a belief in no god(s), a belief in refuting god(s). I'm Japanese, we (Japan) consider ourselves Non-Religious when we choose to celebrate newborn life at Shinto Shrines, weddings at Christian Churches, and funerals and graves at Buddhist Temples with no dogmatic attachment to any of them as an institution as we go through the motions in life. There's a healthy enjoyment of Christmas involving cake and Kentucky Fried Chicken in there, too. Thusly, I always find it interesting/amusing that Atheism is usually positioned as the anti-religion in the West when really it isn't.

dsign 2y ago
I'm going in a tangent too here :-) . One can say that atheism (with lower case) is a lack of religion. And then there is the meaning you suggest: Atheism as a belief in refuting god. That one is not a proper religion, but more like an ideology. Or maybe it is a religion in the sense that it can be used as a moral cornerstone. More than playing with words, not believing in god may be one of three things: irrelevant, a disadvantage, or a door to a better world. It is irrelevant if you observe the rites and traditions of your society anyway, e.g. if you celebrate newborn life at Shinto Shrines, and weddings and Christian Churches, and Christmas, and if your passing through this world does not intend to play with those "immutables". It's a disadvantage if you find yourself in an ostracized minority or simply disconnected from your neighbors. But it may also be a door to a better world if you yourself or your neighbor are gay, or if you yourself and your neighbor are medical researchers trying to understand why people age, or if you yourself and your neighbor are fighting for the rights of women in some dark corner of the world. An atheist may write books where gods, angels and demons play with humans, and find it amusing and delight others with it. Or they may enter a church and find it pretty and feel empathy for the pain that move people to worship in such places. An atheist may come to terms with their irreverent faith on that pain not having to be an eternal part of the world, and may try to do something to change it.
- ANewFormation 2y ago
  I think the parallel many draw is that atheism is taking a position of certainty on the question of a God. And that certainty is based largely on personal belief as any evidence for such a question will inherently be weak. To me agnosticism would be more the absence of religion, because the absence of religion doesn't imply any particular opinion on the existence or not of a God. One can believe there might be a God without embracing any religion.
  - lo_zamoyski 2y ago
    The idea that someone can be without “religion” is very odd. The word “religion” is generally worthless as used, as for most people, this is merely some vague sense of what was called “religion” in their particular experience. But a coherent common characteristic, as it were, is that it is a worldview with a highest good. Everyone has some kind of worldview and some notion of a hierarchy of goods, usually something absorbed from their environment. So it is pointless to speak of whether you are “religious”. It makes more sense to ask how you are religious. It is far more interesting to discuss the merits of your religion or other religions than to go around pretending you don’t have one.
- bluGill 2y ago
  The first isn't atheism, it is agnostic - no religion and not looking for one, but open to it if you can convince them your religion is right (which you can't because they are not interested in the topic)
  - ghaff 2y ago
    In practice though, unless you're in the Richard Dawkins camp, it's a distinction without really a difference.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      The Richard Dawkins camp is pretty large (or maybe just vocal?) on the internet though and so the difference is important.
      - ghaff 2y ago
        I vote vocal.
  - Scea91 2y ago
    Atheism is defined as the absence of belief which is essentially what OP said. The fact that we are open to changing our mind if theoretically presented with strong evidence does not make us agnostic. You’d probably also accept that sun is made of cheese if presented strong enough evidence but don’t call yourself agnostic about the topic given your current knowledge.
    - lo_zamoyski 2y ago
      Atheism is the position that God does not exist. An atheist is someone who therefore says “I believe that there is no God.” It is not a mere lack of belief, as agnostics can be said to lack belief in God as well. People who are simply ignorant of God also lack a proper belief in God, but this is not atheism, only ignorance. They simply have not come to terms with the subject and therefore have no position on the matter. An atheist does, however unsophisticated it may be. This view that atheism is simply a lack of belief in God is common among the intellectually challenged New Atheist crowd and would have been ridiculous to the much more intellectually substantive atheists of old, like Neitzsche (who, btw, while an atheist, found it a horrifying thing; the other classic atheists could be described as world-weary rather than insipid, parochial, middle class triumphant).
speed_spread 2y ago
Atheism is not a religion but the single belief that there is no all-powerful sentient being organising the human world, which is a staple of Western religions. The corollary being that anybody believing in God is delusional and/or manipulative. This usually stems from the realization that religious leaders are abusing their followers, using cognitive dissonance to force people to do things that run counter to their most basic interests while serving parasitic power structures. Unfortunately atheism has the side effect of weakening the social constructs that organized religion brings. Not being a religion itself, it does not prescribe any replacement rituals. The Japanese stance you describe would better be described as agnosticism, the belief that God's existence doesn't matter. This allows to mix and match existing rituals and beliefs into a coherent whole and puts the individual back into the driving position. It's a very sane way of handling fragmentation of belief and what I believe more people should be doing.
- jhardy54 2y ago
  What you’re describing isn’t really agnosticism. Agnosticism is about not knowing if gods exist, not about thinking their existence doesn’t matter. The mix-and-match approach you’re describing is seems more closely related to religious syncretism.
  - speed_spread 2y ago
    Once one admits that God's existence is undecidable, s/he can either live in fear of both possibilities or live free of both possibilities. Having no use for unfounded fear, I personally much prefer the latter option. God, if it exists, is irrelevant. Any spiritual activity I perform is for my own benefit and for the good of those around me, never for the consideration of a possible being that couldn't be bothered to manifest itself and make clear what its moral rules (if it has any) actually are.
    - whiskiss 2y ago
      It could be argued by the religious that in some cases they did manifest(according to their beliefs), and there's actually an excess of copies of the rules if considering the amounts of the Quran or Bible printed.
jhardy54 2y ago
Atheism is not a religion – it’s simply the absence of belief in gods. Religions involve organized systems of practices, rituals, and doctrines, none of which apply to atheism. Not believing in something doesn’t make it a belief system, just like not collecting stamps isn’t a hobby.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Atheism has a large component of refute the existence of God, make practice of region hard for those who are religion and so on. There is the I don't believe in God and I'm not interested in anything more. However there are a lot of vocal Atheists who have turned it into a religion with practices, rituals and doctrines around proving there is no God and thus I elevate that to a religion. You can choose where you want to be.
  - goodpoint 2y ago
    > rituals and doctrines around proving there is no God Please provide evidence to substantiate this claim.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      Their rituals involve quotes of Noam Chomsky or Richard Dawkins anytime region comes up. Noam Chomsky and/or Richard Dawkins wrote their doctrines which they accept without question. Maybe that isn't you, but it exists.
      - goodpoint 2y ago
        This is not reddit nor 4chan.
      - antifa 2y ago
        > but it exists A religion without gods can exist, and trying to prove God does not exist can be a hobby, but Atheism does not mean either of those concepts.
  - 2y ago
nox101 2y ago
Japanese are massively superstitious (as are most peoples). That's not quite the same as religion but it's somewhere in the same side of the spectrum.
- lo_zamoyski 2y ago
  I would question this thesis. First, “religion” is not an especially good word in practice, as what people call “religion” is highly varied, enough so that the set of assertions that hold for all of them is exceedingly small and increasingly banal such that it ultimately becomes synonymous with worldview. The vague feeling of what religion is in most people’s minds is highly informed by caricature and parochial experience that is then overgeneralized. But in the specific case of Catholicism, superstition is, in fact, recognized as sinful precisely because it is irrational (and thus opposed to human nature and the human good) and often rooted in a desire to control what is not in scope for human control or ought not be within the scope of the desire to control. Think “spells” that are meant to control others or palm reading meant to tell you your future or rituals that are supposed to alter your luck like throwing salt over your shoulder or believing that black cats bring bad luck. All these are regarded as irrational in the sense that they have no rational justification, no causal efficacy, or trade in bogus notions, but also conspicuously evil when they entail the desire to objectify and manipulate other people. (These, in turn, are said to predispose their practitioners to malicious influence, as ill will and irrationality are weaknesses that predispose a person to that.) Faith, properly understood, is not the nonsense the popular culture or Hallmark movies tell us it is (i.e., wishful thinking), only either a rationally justified trust or reason supplemented by some kind of divine act. The divinity of Jesus is an article of faith, but the existence of God is not, as it can be know by unaided reason. In any case, the point here is that genuine faith is not a matter of superstition, even if in practice superstitious people often live out a superficial ersatz of faith. Now, if there is anything that is magic-adjacent in terms of intent and the desire for control, it is the Baconian view of science, not something like Catholicism. Modern science grows out of the Catholic tradition as a sustained enterprise in the sense that Catholicism takes the nature of man to be essentially “rational animal”, and because God (vis—a-vis the Second Person of the Trinity) is seen as essentially Rationality as such (Logos) and the world the fundamentally and fully intelligible creation ex nihilo of God. Baconian science, however, places less emphasis on knowing and greater emphasis on power.
the_af 2y ago
> but I would like to point out to you that Atheism is itself a religion: It's a belief in no god(s), a belief in refuting god(s). This definition of atheism is non-standard, and dilutes the meaning of "religion". Let it be noted that almost all atheists will disagree with you that it is a religion. Not all of them, of course, because atheism isn't an organized movement with a doctrine which states what is and isn't "true" atheism. It's not a religion, though, by any reasonable definition of the term.
jimbokun 2y ago
The Japanese traditions and customs and social systems you describe are really the part of “religion” atheism lacks. There has been no successful attempt to recreate the social bonds and community of religion in an atheistic context.
antod 2y ago
> It's a belief in no god(s) That would be better stated as "no belief in gods". The vast majority of atheists in non religious societies aren't spending much time thinking about how there are no gods, or reading up on how they should believe there are gods. They just aren't thinking about it at all, it isn't something they work at. To steal a quote: "not going skiing isn't a hobby".

dsign 2y ago

I'm going in a tangent too here :-) . One can say that atheism (with lower case) is a lack of religion. And then there is the meaning you suggest: Atheism as a belief in refuting god. That one is not a proper religion, but more like an ideology. Or maybe it is a religion in the sense that it can be used as a moral cornerstone. More than playing with words, not believing in god may be one of three things: irrelevant, a disadvantage, or a door to a better world. It is irrelevant if you observe the rites and traditions of your society anyway, e.g. if you celebrate newborn life at Shinto Shrines, and weddings and Christian Churches, and Christmas, and if your passing through this world does not intend to play with those "immutables". It's a disadvantage if you find yourself in an ostracized minority or simply disconnected from your neighbors. But it may also be a door to a better world if you yourself or your neighbor are gay, or if you yourself and your neighbor are medical researchers trying to understand why people age, or if you yourself and your neighbor are fighting for the rights of women in some dark corner of the world. An atheist may write books where gods, angels and demons play with humans, and find it amusing and delight others with it. Or they may enter a church and find it pretty and feel empathy for the pain that move people to worship in such places. An atheist may come to terms with their irreverent faith on that pain not having to be an eternal part of the world, and may try to do something to change it.

ANewFormation 2y ago
I think the parallel many draw is that atheism is taking a position of certainty on the question of a God. And that certainty is based largely on personal belief as any evidence for such a question will inherently be weak. To me agnosticism would be more the absence of religion, because the absence of religion doesn't imply any particular opinion on the existence or not of a God. One can believe there might be a God without embracing any religion.
- lo_zamoyski 2y ago
  The idea that someone can be without “religion” is very odd. The word “religion” is generally worthless as used, as for most people, this is merely some vague sense of what was called “religion” in their particular experience. But a coherent common characteristic, as it were, is that it is a worldview with a highest good. Everyone has some kind of worldview and some notion of a hierarchy of goods, usually something absorbed from their environment. So it is pointless to speak of whether you are “religious”. It makes more sense to ask how you are religious. It is far more interesting to discuss the merits of your religion or other religions than to go around pretending you don’t have one.
bluGill 2y ago
The first isn't atheism, it is agnostic - no religion and not looking for one, but open to it if you can convince them your religion is right (which you can't because they are not interested in the topic)
- ghaff 2y ago
  In practice though, unless you're in the Richard Dawkins camp, it's a distinction without really a difference.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    The Richard Dawkins camp is pretty large (or maybe just vocal?) on the internet though and so the difference is important.
    - ghaff 2y ago
      I vote vocal.
- Scea91 2y ago
  Atheism is defined as the absence of belief which is essentially what OP said. The fact that we are open to changing our mind if theoretically presented with strong evidence does not make us agnostic. You’d probably also accept that sun is made of cheese if presented strong enough evidence but don’t call yourself agnostic about the topic given your current knowledge.
  - lo_zamoyski 2y ago
    Atheism is the position that God does not exist. An atheist is someone who therefore says “I believe that there is no God.” It is not a mere lack of belief, as agnostics can be said to lack belief in God as well. People who are simply ignorant of God also lack a proper belief in God, but this is not atheism, only ignorance. They simply have not come to terms with the subject and therefore have no position on the matter. An atheist does, however unsophisticated it may be. This view that atheism is simply a lack of belief in God is common among the intellectually challenged New Atheist crowd and would have been ridiculous to the much more intellectually substantive atheists of old, like Neitzsche (who, btw, while an atheist, found it a horrifying thing; the other classic atheists could be described as world-weary rather than insipid, parochial, middle class triumphant).

speed_spread 2y ago

Atheism is not a religion but the single belief that there is no all-powerful sentient being organising the human world, which is a staple of Western religions. The corollary being that anybody believing in God is delusional and/or manipulative. This usually stems from the realization that religious leaders are abusing their followers, using cognitive dissonance to force people to do things that run counter to their most basic interests while serving parasitic power structures. Unfortunately atheism has the side effect of weakening the social constructs that organized religion brings. Not being a religion itself, it does not prescribe any replacement rituals. The Japanese stance you describe would better be described as agnosticism, the belief that God's existence doesn't matter. This allows to mix and match existing rituals and beliefs into a coherent whole and puts the individual back into the driving position. It's a very sane way of handling fragmentation of belief and what I believe more people should be doing.

jhardy54 2y ago
What you’re describing isn’t really agnosticism. Agnosticism is about not knowing if gods exist, not about thinking their existence doesn’t matter. The mix-and-match approach you’re describing is seems more closely related to religious syncretism.
- speed_spread 2y ago
  Once one admits that God's existence is undecidable, s/he can either live in fear of both possibilities or live free of both possibilities. Having no use for unfounded fear, I personally much prefer the latter option. God, if it exists, is irrelevant. Any spiritual activity I perform is for my own benefit and for the good of those around me, never for the consideration of a possible being that couldn't be bothered to manifest itself and make clear what its moral rules (if it has any) actually are.
  - whiskiss 2y ago
    It could be argued by the religious that in some cases they did manifest(according to their beliefs), and there's actually an excess of copies of the rules if considering the amounts of the Quran or Bible printed.

jhardy54 2y ago

Atheism is not a religion – it’s simply the absence of belief in gods. Religions involve organized systems of practices, rituals, and doctrines, none of which apply to atheism. Not believing in something doesn’t make it a belief system, just like not collecting stamps isn’t a hobby.

bluGill 2y ago
Atheism has a large component of refute the existence of God, make practice of region hard for those who are religion and so on. There is the I don't believe in God and I'm not interested in anything more. However there are a lot of vocal Atheists who have turned it into a religion with practices, rituals and doctrines around proving there is no God and thus I elevate that to a religion. You can choose where you want to be.
- goodpoint 2y ago
  > rituals and doctrines around proving there is no God Please provide evidence to substantiate this claim.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    Their rituals involve quotes of Noam Chomsky or Richard Dawkins anytime region comes up. Noam Chomsky and/or Richard Dawkins wrote their doctrines which they accept without question. Maybe that isn't you, but it exists.
    - goodpoint 2y ago
      This is not reddit nor 4chan.
    - antifa 2y ago
      > but it exists A religion without gods can exist, and trying to prove God does not exist can be a hobby, but Atheism does not mean either of those concepts.
- 2y ago

nox101 2y ago

Japanese are massively superstitious (as are most peoples). That's not quite the same as religion but it's somewhere in the same side of the spectrum.

lo_zamoyski 2y ago
I would question this thesis. First, “religion” is not an especially good word in practice, as what people call “religion” is highly varied, enough so that the set of assertions that hold for all of them is exceedingly small and increasingly banal such that it ultimately becomes synonymous with worldview. The vague feeling of what religion is in most people’s minds is highly informed by caricature and parochial experience that is then overgeneralized. But in the specific case of Catholicism, superstition is, in fact, recognized as sinful precisely because it is irrational (and thus opposed to human nature and the human good) and often rooted in a desire to control what is not in scope for human control or ought not be within the scope of the desire to control. Think “spells” that are meant to control others or palm reading meant to tell you your future or rituals that are supposed to alter your luck like throwing salt over your shoulder or believing that black cats bring bad luck. All these are regarded as irrational in the sense that they have no rational justification, no causal efficacy, or trade in bogus notions, but also conspicuously evil when they entail the desire to objectify and manipulate other people. (These, in turn, are said to predispose their practitioners to malicious influence, as ill will and irrationality are weaknesses that predispose a person to that.) Faith, properly understood, is not the nonsense the popular culture or Hallmark movies tell us it is (i.e., wishful thinking), only either a rationally justified trust or reason supplemented by some kind of divine act. The divinity of Jesus is an article of faith, but the existence of God is not, as it can be know by unaided reason. In any case, the point here is that genuine faith is not a matter of superstition, even if in practice superstitious people often live out a superficial ersatz of faith. Now, if there is anything that is magic-adjacent in terms of intent and the desire for control, it is the Baconian view of science, not something like Catholicism. Modern science grows out of the Catholic tradition as a sustained enterprise in the sense that Catholicism takes the nature of man to be essentially “rational animal”, and because God (vis—a-vis the Second Person of the Trinity) is seen as essentially Rationality as such (Logos) and the world the fundamentally and fully intelligible creation ex nihilo of God. Baconian science, however, places less emphasis on knowing and greater emphasis on power.

the_af 2y ago

> but I would like to point out to you that Atheism is itself a religion: It's a belief in no god(s), a belief in refuting god(s). This definition of atheism is non-standard, and dilutes the meaning of "religion". Let it be noted that almost all atheists will disagree with you that it is a religion. Not all of them, of course, because atheism isn't an organized movement with a doctrine which states what is and isn't "true" atheism. It's not a religion, though, by any reasonable definition of the term.

jimbokun 2y ago

The Japanese traditions and customs and social systems you describe are really the part of “religion” atheism lacks. There has been no successful attempt to recreate the social bonds and community of religion in an atheistic context.

antod 2y ago

> It's a belief in no god(s) That would be better stated as "no belief in gods". The vast majority of atheists in non religious societies aren't spending much time thinking about how there are no gods, or reading up on how they should believe there are gods. They just aren't thinking about it at all, it isn't something they work at. To steal a quote: "not going skiing isn't a hobby".