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Liberating Wi-Fi on the ESP32 [video]
- cryptonector 2y agoWatch without downloading: https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-liberating-wi-fi-on-the-esp32/playlist https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-liberating-wi-fi-on-the-esp32/pl...
- metaxz 2y agoI'm wondering how deep the hack is... it seems sending a frame is just setting some registers and waiting for an interrupt. This suggests (though I'm not an expert!) that they are talking to another layer of firmware that does the actual stuff? Reminds me a bit of the Raspberry pico board which has the main RP2040 SoC but where the WiFi is a separate WiFi/BT module (CYW43xx) with its own Arm cores. Not even the external register interface to the WiFi module is documented publicly, but there is an open source driver (https://github.com/georgerobotics/cyw43-driver/tree/cf924bb04c8984675ca0fc2178f082e404e048c3 https://github.com/georgerobotics/cyw43-driver/tree/cf924bb0...) so one can infer the specification. However, this driver yet again talks to software running on Arm codes inside the module, the code for which is supplied as big firmware binary blobs by the manufacturer (the blobs are actually in the linked repo, defined inside header files in the firmware directory). I'm wondering how this ESP32 hack corresponds to this?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- jakeogh 2y agohttps://github.com/esp32-open-mac https://github.com/esp32-open-mac
- ryao 2y agoWhy are wifi ICs so expensive? It seems to me that it is cheaper to buy an ESP32 to connect to a RP2040 for wifi than it is to buy a dedicated wifi IC.
- equestria 2y agoThe wifi protocol is computationally intensive. The wifi module is effectively a fast 32-bit computer with fairly complex firmware. And then, there's all the RF engineering that needs to happen to make it work. So, the original thinking was "if you need wifi, we can't price a standalone chip competitively, just buy a SoC". But the genius of ESP32 was that they approached it the other way round: they built a wifi chip, and then figured they can carve out some room for user code. No need to pay for a separate MCU. This worked for a lot of customers, and the economies of scale took care of the rest.
- rkagerer 2y agoHow is progress toward a useable open source alternative?
- AlotOfReading 2y agoVirtually non-existent? There aren't that many people doing open RF hardware, and all of the ones I'm familiar with are working with SDR because the costs go up massively once you go to tapeout.
- ryao 2y agoI am not sure if you can still get the chips, but these are fully OSS: https://github.com/qca/open-ath9k-htc-firmware https://github.com/qca/open-ath9k-htc-firmware
- brcmthrowaway 2y agoWhy doesnt Apple use ESP32
- epcoa 2y agoWhile they’re only now coming out with even a 5GHz model there isn’t really much in Apple’s product line that needs a lowend primarily “IoT” WiFi. Maybe the HomePod, but they already have better chipsets for their flagship devices.
- denysvitali 2y agoRelated article: https://zeus.ugent.be/blog/23-24/open-source-esp32-wifi-mac/ https://zeus.ugent.be/blog/23-24/open-source-esp32-wifi-mac/
- redfast00 2y agoAuthor here; see also the entire series of posts on https://esp32-open-mac.be/ https://esp32-open-mac.be/
- nraynaud 2y agoI would like to submit that making the open source version compatible with the closed source API might be an asset. By being compatible, users get all the benefits of the existing corpus of help on the internet. And being compatible make the cost to entry lower. If somebody wants to make a very small modification of the MAC layer, they can do it as with the closed source and just go behind the curtain and file a little the thing they want to hack, without the cognitive load of learning a new API.
- jsheard 2y agoI haven't had chance to watch the video yet so apologies if this is covered, but are the ESP32 radios regulatory certifications tied to the official black box firmware? Would the same hardware but with open firmware need to be sent to the FCC (and others) again for proper compliance?
- mystified5016 2y agoYes.
- dlcarrier 2y agoYes, if distributed that way. No, if modified by the end user. I don't remember the CFR off hand, but the FCC explicitly allows anyone to use small numbers of uncertified devices. It would still be a violation if those devices don't otherwise follow regulations, but using modified hardware or software isn't itself prohibited.
- jdietrich 2y ago15.23, but it applies specifically to "home-built devices", so I'm not sure if modification of a commercially available device would be within scope. Devices constructed from a kit are specifically excluded. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/section-15.23 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/section-15.23
- dlcarrier 2y agoThey excluded kits, because there was a thriving market for pirate radio station transmitters sold as kits.
- ssl-3 2y agoAre home-built devices allowed to be made using things like pre-manufactured valves and transistors? What about integrated circuits? Where's the line drawn? Am I allowed to order some parts from Digikey and assemble them into a widget, or must I start closer to the beginning by mining my own ores?
- imglorp 2y agoSide question. One of the speakers gave his DECT number. Does that mean people are still carrying around old phones just to use at tech conferences?
- solarkraft 2y agoThere is a conference phone network hosted by eventphone. The most popular way to access it is indeed using DECT handsets, but you can also access it via SIP (probably the second most popular method), GSM (yes, really, they used to hand out SIM cards), landline (supports rotary phones!) and probably even more esoteric ways. There's also a post office delivering mail both internally and externally.
- phoronixrly 2y agoI think it's a CCC tradition.
- zitterbewegung 2y agoYes, I was looking at the conference website before it started and they still operate DECT phones.
- sllabres 2y agoThey operate several different networks for voice communications during the events. From what I found usually DECT, SIP, GSM. [1] They have a status dashboard with metrics during the events. [2] [1] https://events.ccc.de/2024/12/22/38c3-poc-isdn-version/ https://events.ccc.de/2024/12/22/38c3-poc-isdn-version/ [2] https://dashboard.eventphone.de/d/de7sgxz63vzeoe/38c3?orgId=1&from=now-7d&to=now&timezone=browser&refresh=5m https://dashboard.eventphone.de/d/de7sgxz63vzeoe/38c3?orgId=...
- legulere 2y agoSome years ago they also operated a pneumatic tube system.
- wkat4242 2y agoYes it's pretty handy for hacker camps. I still have one too. Especially because out on the camping fields the WiFi coverage can be hit and miss. This way you can even get calls when you walked to the toilet building or the car park. Also it's got its own frequency so it's not cluttering the ones used for WiFi, Bluetooth, Zigbee etc. I guess they could use an app or something but dect is rock stable and has much better range than WiFi. I got a nice Siemens one that is about the size of a nokia 8210 so it's not like you have to carry a huge brick either. I guess the battery is pretty dead now though. But it is replaceable like all batteries of that time.
- anigbrowl 2y agoOne step closer to a microPython library that supports promiscuous mode...
- jdjdne 2y agoWhy? That's already supported in the ESP SDK
- leptons 2y agoBecause some people can't deal with C style syntax, I guess? I can't blame them though, you would have to hold a gun to my head to get me to code in Python.
- mdnxjdnen 2y agoI understand but why would an open Mac help with a Python interface? Doesn't matter if the C code is open or not when calling into it from Python
- matt_trentini 2y agoThen it could be exposed to MicroPython, presumably relatively easily...
- cyberax 2y agoI had a cool idea for WiFi password provisioning once: it's possible to modulate the packet _length_ to transmit the SSID and the password. A new IoT device obviously can't decrypt the packets, but it can observe their length. I even made a sample implementation for Linux. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a single IoT chip that would give low-level access to the PHY good enough for this :(
- tonetegeatinst 2y agoReverse engineering as a last resort or is this not possible?
- cyberax 2y agoI'm no good at reverse engineering. I run away screaming in horror at the sight of Ghidra. Cleaning up the Linux code and publishing it is on my TODO list...
- fragmede 2y agoThat's how TI's SmartConfig works, via the length field, so you could just use any IoT chip that implements that, of which TI offers a bunch.
- 05 2y agoAlso supported by Espressif under their own name “Airkiss/ESPTouch”. Unfortunately since the chip doesn’t support 5G WiFi it’s a mess where you need to switch the phone to a different 2.4 only network, configure the device, then switch back. Better to just use BLE..
- shim__ 2y agoNowdays I'd just use WPA3
- lights0123 2y agohttps://www.keacher.com/xmas24/ https://www.keacher.com/xmas24/ uses OOK for data communication, with the benefit of energy harvesting the WiFi signal to not require batteries.
- wkat4242 2y agoYeah I remember with the 8266 we could do all sorts of cool stuff but Expressif took it upon themselves to block a whole range of operations with the ESP32 :'( I guess that they had no choice, the 8266 was originally meant to only be used in serial to WiFi converters but it kinda exploded in the maker community. I guess that drew regulator attention. But cool to see that this is being worked around.
- Eduard 2y agocould you elaborate? what can be done with the "old" ESP8266 that can't be done with ESP32?
- ElectRabbit 2y agoStill super weird that Espressif is the only company that managed it to get a Wifi modem into a more or less decent microcontroller. ST still far behind when it comes to this stuff.
- smat 2y agoNordic semiconductor also has microcontrollers with BT and Wifi. They are much less common than espressifs solution though.
- ElectRabbit 2y agoBT/Wifi on a single chip? Do you have a part number? That'd be revolutionary. I love the ESP32. But they love (too much) current.
- Arch-TK 2y agohttps://www.nordicsemi.com/Products/Wireless/WiFi/Products?lang=en https://www.nordicsemi.com/Products/Wireless/WiFi/Products?l... Search for the SiPs and SoCs, they all support BLE.
- 3abiton 2y agoBecause the prices are not competitive enough for hobbyists. How can you expect people to adopt and develop on top of your chips if they can't afford it?
- bbayer 2y agoI am really impressed by how young speakers are. It is really fascinating to see how somebody collect such technical knowledge at such a young age.
- SarahC_ 2y agoDude on the left looks like my doppleganger...... I had to think back to remember what I'd being doing recently - nope, no holes in my memory!
- Frostie314159 2y agoHaha how cool, are you on the 38c3 too?
- jpablo 2y agoEverything is out in the open nowadays. Kids can start learning whatever they what an younger and younger ages. A perfect example is chess. It used that a lot of knowledge was in books, often in foreign languages. Nowadays everything is out there in the open and additionally you can casually play games against top 100 opposition once you are okeish enough accelerating the development even more.
- whatever1 2y agoNow with the impeding tariffs do we have any viable microcontroller alternatives for us hobbyists ? Aka cheap, feature rich and well documented?
- artificialLimbs 2y agoIf the tariffs are 100% then a C3 is still like $6.