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A Taping of 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' Saved an Innocent Man from Death Row (2017)

98 points by nadermx 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
fracus 2y ago
It is worrisome someone would have to prove innocence to remain off death row.
- unsnap_biceps 2y ago
  I am firmly in the camp of the justice system should never execute anyone. It's a one way door that presumes the system is infallible and we've had proof after proof of cases where the system failed.
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    All sentences are a one-way door. You don't get years of your life back, or the skills that atrophy in jail if you had any before.
    - immibis 2y ago
      Indeed. But a death penalty can't even give you back your remaining ones once you're found innocent, so it's worse in some sense.
    - gostsamo 2y ago
      If you are sentenced falsely, would you liked to be killed or you would choose to spend some time in jail and be released when proved innocent? What you are giving here is really false equivalence which contributes absolutely nothing to the conversation.
      - lazide 2y ago
        Are we talking life sentences, or a year or two?
      - hnlmorg 2y ago
        If I have to spend 20+ years then my life as I know it is over because there’s no way I’m coming out the same person that went in.
        efdee 2y ago
        But you are coming out, nonetheless.
        hnlmorg 2y ago
        That’s not in disagreement. The question is how traumatised that person coming out is.
      - potsandpans 2y ago
        Given the choice of 15+ years in maximum security US prison or death, id unequivocally choose death.
    - qingcharles 2y ago
      Not even sentences. I've known multiple people who have been incarcerated over a decade on allegations in pre-trail detention ("jail"). You don't need a sentence to lose years of your life.
  - csomar 2y ago
    The land of "human rights": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolutions_concerning_death_penalty_at_the_United_Nations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolutions_concerning_death_p...
- dangus 2y ago
  The justice system relies on the concept of guilt beyond reasonable doubt. That standard doesn’t mean “proved to be impossible to be innocent.” In a system that is in a population of millions of people, there are bound to be edge cases where there’s a lot of damning evidence and people look guilty who just aren’t. It’s one of the many arguments against capital punishment. It can’t be undone.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    >It’s one of the many arguments against capital punishment. It can’t be undone. Neither can time spent behind bars.
    - mulmen 2y ago
      The time served can’t be undone but the incarceration can.
      - sdenton4 2y ago
        And there's little details like $320k settlements for wrongful imprisonment to help transition back out of prison... Harder when you're dead.
        hnlmorg 2y ago
        I’ve seen interviews with people how have been wrongfully imprisoned for extended periods and they’re changed in irreversible ways. Some of them are unlikely to ever integrate back into normal society.
        hkt 2y ago
        > Some of them are unlikely to ever integrate back into normal society. This is an indictment of the system itself. If it damages innocent people who are wrongfully jailed so badly, how can anyone ever hope it'll turn actual criminals into citizens?
thih9 2y ago
More details along with a still: https://nypost.com/2017/09/23/how-curb-your-enthusiasm-saved-this-man-from-prison/ https://nypost.com/2017/09/23/how-curb-your-enthusiasm-saved... > They had been stopped by a production assistant so as not to interrupt filming. But for some reason, the PA had a last-minute change of heart and let Juan and little Melissa walk to their seats — and into the background of the show’s action. > “Can you imagine had Melissa not asked for a snack?” Juan marveled. (…) > Juan was released, but couldn’t catch a break. Due to a clerical error, he had to report back to county jail two days later. The tombs had just been rocked by racial unrest after a murder inside, and Juan was actually afraid “I would be killed.” > Melnik had assumed it would be cleared up in 24 hours. Instead, Juan, a declared-innocent man, was there for two hell-filled weeks. > In 2007, Juan received $320,000 in a settlement of his civil lawsuit against the LAPD and the city of Los Angeles for false imprisonment, misconduct and defamation.
- nightowl_games 2y ago
  What happens if you dont accept a settlement for something like false imprisonment?
  - unsnap_biceps 2y ago
    a settlement just short circuits the process. Without a settlement, it goes to court and, depending on the jurisdiction and case details, decided by a judge or a jury, and again depending on the jurisdiction and case details, penalties are decided by a judge or a jury. Really it's pretty similar to criminal court with the exception that neither party will have a criminal charge or criminal judgement against them at the end of it. No one will go to jail.
- ruthmarx 2y ago
  > They had been stopped by a production assistant so as not to interrupt filming. But for some reason, the PA had a last-minute change of heart and let Juan and little Melissa walk to their seats — and into the background of the show’s action. Why is a PA able to stop a ticket holder from going to their seats just cause a show is filming at the same time a game is on? Seems shitty for anyone that bought a ticket that day.
1659447091 2y ago
The title is a bit dramatic. It never got to a trial, because his alibi checked out. One of the factors was him walking into frame of a taping of Curb your Enthusiasm. The main factor was his cellphone placing him at that location after answering a call that pinged off a tower near the stadium 20mins before the murder which was 20 miles away. There was also footage from the stadium that showed a person in his seat, but resolution was not good enough to be dismissed from that alone. Even the shows footage did not clear him from charges, it was the cellphone location data. The real tragedy was the clerical error: "Due to a clerical error, he had to report back to county jail two days later." On the positive: "In 2007, Juan received $320,000 in a settlement of his civil lawsuit against the LAPD and the city of Los Angeles for false imprisonment, misconduct and defamation."
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  It's not dramatic at all. Without proof of his innocence, it could very well have gone to trial and resulted in a conviction, thanks to people's belief in the reliability of "eyewitness testimony". This case alone should show just how useless and flimsy eyewitness testimony is.
  - 1659447091 2y ago
    > It's not dramatic at all. It was not the show that "saved" him; it was cellphone location data that got the charges dismissed. He was never on trial with the possibility of death row because it never got that far.
    - kenjackson 2y ago
      TV footage seems like a WAY better alibi than cell phone pings.
      - 1659447091 2y ago
        Not when it was taped an hour and 22 minutes before the murder > "The discovery seemed a home run for Juan, who by then had been in jail over a month. Still, the prosecutor argued that the footage was from 9:10 p.m. — and the murder had occurred at 10:32. Juan ostensibly could have left early, driven to the scene of the crime, and still had time to kill Puebla."
jdenning 2y ago
It really sounds like the prosecution had exactly zero evidence that this man was guilty, but determined to prosecute him anyway, rather than “lose”. Disgusting.
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  Unfortunately this is quite common in some legal jurisdictions.
mrlonglong 2y ago
This, IMHO, is the biggest argument against the death penalty. "Gung-ho" prosecutors with eyes on the political ladder will always call for the death penalty to further their career. End it and lock them up for life. You can always release them if new evidence comes to light that proves their innocence. You can't bring back to life someone who's been executed. We haven't sent anyone to the gallows since the 1960s. The EU doesn't either.
kordlessagain 2y ago
> Los Angeles police have reassigned a detective who told a gang member he had been identified as a killer by a Sun Valley girl who was later murdered by another member of the gang. [1] > Deputy Chief Charlie Beck says Martin Pinner will no longer work homicide cases. [1] https://www.courthousenews.com/parents-say-l-a-police-lies-led-to-murder/ https://www.courthousenews.com/parents-say-l-a-police-lies-l...
namaria 2y ago
Funnily enough this sounds like a 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' plot.

98 points by nadermx 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

fracus 2y ago

It is worrisome someone would have to prove innocence to remain off death row.

unsnap_biceps 2y ago
I am firmly in the camp of the justice system should never execute anyone. It's a one way door that presumes the system is infallible and we've had proof after proof of cases where the system failed.
- whatshisface 2y ago
  All sentences are a one-way door. You don't get years of your life back, or the skills that atrophy in jail if you had any before.
  - immibis 2y ago
    Indeed. But a death penalty can't even give you back your remaining ones once you're found innocent, so it's worse in some sense.
  - gostsamo 2y ago
    If you are sentenced falsely, would you liked to be killed or you would choose to spend some time in jail and be released when proved innocent? What you are giving here is really false equivalence which contributes absolutely nothing to the conversation.
    - lazide 2y ago
      Are we talking life sentences, or a year or two?
    - hnlmorg 2y ago
      If I have to spend 20+ years then my life as I know it is over because there’s no way I’m coming out the same person that went in.
      - efdee 2y ago
        But you are coming out, nonetheless.
        hnlmorg 2y ago
        That’s not in disagreement. The question is how traumatised that person coming out is.
    - potsandpans 2y ago
      Given the choice of 15+ years in maximum security US prison or death, id unequivocally choose death.
  - qingcharles 2y ago
    Not even sentences. I've known multiple people who have been incarcerated over a decade on allegations in pre-trail detention ("jail"). You don't need a sentence to lose years of your life.
- csomar 2y ago
  The land of "human rights": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolutions_concerning_death_penalty_at_the_United_Nations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolutions_concerning_death_p...
dangus 2y ago
The justice system relies on the concept of guilt beyond reasonable doubt. That standard doesn’t mean “proved to be impossible to be innocent.” In a system that is in a population of millions of people, there are bound to be edge cases where there’s a lot of damning evidence and people look guilty who just aren’t. It’s one of the many arguments against capital punishment. It can’t be undone.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  >It’s one of the many arguments against capital punishment. It can’t be undone. Neither can time spent behind bars.
  - mulmen 2y ago
    The time served can’t be undone but the incarceration can.
    - sdenton4 2y ago
      And there's little details like $320k settlements for wrongful imprisonment to help transition back out of prison... Harder when you're dead.
      - hnlmorg 2y ago
        I’ve seen interviews with people how have been wrongfully imprisoned for extended periods and they’re changed in irreversible ways. Some of them are unlikely to ever integrate back into normal society.
        hkt 2y ago
        > Some of them are unlikely to ever integrate back into normal society. This is an indictment of the system itself. If it damages innocent people who are wrongfully jailed so badly, how can anyone ever hope it'll turn actual criminals into citizens?

thih9 2y ago

More details along with a still: https://nypost.com/2017/09/23/how-curb-your-enthusiasm-saved-this-man-from-prison/ https://nypost.com/2017/09/23/how-curb-your-enthusiasm-saved... > They had been stopped by a production assistant so as not to interrupt filming. But for some reason, the PA had a last-minute change of heart and let Juan and little Melissa walk to their seats — and into the background of the show’s action. > “Can you imagine had Melissa not asked for a snack?” Juan marveled. (…) > Juan was released, but couldn’t catch a break. Due to a clerical error, he had to report back to county jail two days later. The tombs had just been rocked by racial unrest after a murder inside, and Juan was actually afraid “I would be killed.” > Melnik had assumed it would be cleared up in 24 hours. Instead, Juan, a declared-innocent man, was there for two hell-filled weeks. > In 2007, Juan received $320,000 in a settlement of his civil lawsuit against the LAPD and the city of Los Angeles for false imprisonment, misconduct and defamation.

nightowl_games 2y ago
What happens if you dont accept a settlement for something like false imprisonment?
- unsnap_biceps 2y ago
  a settlement just short circuits the process. Without a settlement, it goes to court and, depending on the jurisdiction and case details, decided by a judge or a jury, and again depending on the jurisdiction and case details, penalties are decided by a judge or a jury. Really it's pretty similar to criminal court with the exception that neither party will have a criminal charge or criminal judgement against them at the end of it. No one will go to jail.
ruthmarx 2y ago
> They had been stopped by a production assistant so as not to interrupt filming. But for some reason, the PA had a last-minute change of heart and let Juan and little Melissa walk to their seats — and into the background of the show’s action. Why is a PA able to stop a ticket holder from going to their seats just cause a show is filming at the same time a game is on? Seems shitty for anyone that bought a ticket that day.

1659447091 2y ago

The title is a bit dramatic. It never got to a trial, because his alibi checked out. One of the factors was him walking into frame of a taping of Curb your Enthusiasm. The main factor was his cellphone placing him at that location after answering a call that pinged off a tower near the stadium 20mins before the murder which was 20 miles away. There was also footage from the stadium that showed a person in his seat, but resolution was not good enough to be dismissed from that alone. Even the shows footage did not clear him from charges, it was the cellphone location data. The real tragedy was the clerical error: "Due to a clerical error, he had to report back to county jail two days later." On the positive: "In 2007, Juan received $320,000 in a settlement of his civil lawsuit against the LAPD and the city of Los Angeles for false imprisonment, misconduct and defamation."

shiroiushi 2y ago
It's not dramatic at all. Without proof of his innocence, it could very well have gone to trial and resulted in a conviction, thanks to people's belief in the reliability of "eyewitness testimony". This case alone should show just how useless and flimsy eyewitness testimony is.
- 1659447091 2y ago
  > It's not dramatic at all. It was not the show that "saved" him; it was cellphone location data that got the charges dismissed. He was never on trial with the possibility of death row because it never got that far.
  - kenjackson 2y ago
    TV footage seems like a WAY better alibi than cell phone pings.
    - 1659447091 2y ago
      Not when it was taped an hour and 22 minutes before the murder > "The discovery seemed a home run for Juan, who by then had been in jail over a month. Still, the prosecutor argued that the footage was from 9:10 p.m. — and the murder had occurred at 10:32. Juan ostensibly could have left early, driven to the scene of the crime, and still had time to kill Puebla."

jdenning 2y ago

It really sounds like the prosecution had exactly zero evidence that this man was guilty, but determined to prosecute him anyway, rather than “lose”. Disgusting.

hnlmorg 2y ago
Unfortunately this is quite common in some legal jurisdictions.

mrlonglong 2y ago

This, IMHO, is the biggest argument against the death penalty. "Gung-ho" prosecutors with eyes on the political ladder will always call for the death penalty to further their career. End it and lock them up for life. You can always release them if new evidence comes to light that proves their innocence. You can't bring back to life someone who's been executed. We haven't sent anyone to the gallows since the 1960s. The EU doesn't either.

kordlessagain 2y ago

> Los Angeles police have reassigned a detective who told a gang member he had been identified as a killer by a Sun Valley girl who was later murdered by another member of the gang. [1] > Deputy Chief Charlie Beck says Martin Pinner will no longer work homicide cases. [1] https://www.courthousenews.com/parents-say-l-a-police-lies-led-to-murder/ https://www.courthousenews.com/parents-say-l-a-police-lies-l...

namaria 2y ago

Funnily enough this sounds like a 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' plot.