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In Maine, remote jobs give prisoners a lifeline
- sokoloff 2y agohttps://archive.is/4ZOzU https://archive.is/4ZOzU
- jmclnx 2y agoLet's hope this expands to other states.
- csallen 2y ago> Some crime victims would rather have their perpetrators “rot in hell” than see them have these kinds of privileges, said Randall Liberty, commissioner of the Maine Department of Corrections, and victims are notified, and their concerns considered, when offenders line up remote jobs. I can understand those very human feelings. But the state justice system should not be retributive, no matter how much victims want it to be. It should focus on protection (keeping criminals off the streets and the rest of us safe), deterrence, rehabilitation, and restitution. And its constraints should be fairness, transparency, and speed/efficiency.
- baggy_trough 2y agoRetribution contributes to deterrence, as well as benefiting the society as a whole by promoting justice.
- soperj 2y agoThat's why you have no recidivism in the US?
- cultofmetatron 2y ago> Retribution contributes to deterrence, the actual data on this refutes that. rehabilitation focused countries overhelmingly have less recidivism. increasing access and quality of education, early intervention like head start, wicc and other "wellfare" programs as well as free healthcare are much more likely to reduce crime rates by a significant amount.
- baggy_trough 2y ago[flagged]
- lazyasciiart 2y agoSo you think other people should bother to listen to your gut feelings instead.
- baggy_trough 2y agoUnfortunately we don't have much more to go on, given an academia that is overwhelmingly leftist, especially in the social sciences.
- kaibee 2y ago> Unfortunately we don't have much more to go on, given an academia that is overwhelmingly leftist, especially in the social sciences. Yea its hard figure out the truth when you just dismiss all the evidence that goes against your priors.
- lazyasciiart 2y agoAhh, so anyone who knows what they are talking about disagrees with you and you think that’s a problem with their work.
- baggy_trough 2y agoYou don't think it's a problem that 99% of social study researchers are left wing?
- lazyasciiart 2y ago100% of astronauts believe the world is a sphere.
- RiverCrochet 2y agoOnly if a leading entity emerges and keeps power, but history doesn't show that a single entity can keep power for very long in the grand timeline of humanity. And that fact--constant threat/change of power--makes the following difficult: - Having an idea of societal benefit or justice that does not align with a person's feelings (leader of the ruling party) - Owning land or real property with conveniences like electricity or water - your territory is always under threat and unless you have large numbers of allies you will eventually get swallowed or forced to obey directives of the ruling party. Furthermore: - Having large numbers of allies, or being part of or strongly affiliated with the ruling entity just puts you in the same situation as ruling entity which is causing the first 2 things so it can survive.
- from-nibly 2y agoRetribution is not justice. It does not promote it.
- baggy_trough 2y agoPunishment for misdeeds is a component of justice.
- Tronno 2y agoSatisfying the desire for retribution has to be one of the system's goals, otherwise people would take matters into their own hands. However, you are correct that it shouldn't be the main goal, or even a major one.
- vidarh 2y agoMany things make people want to take justice into their hands without us yielding to those who are prepared to commit crimes to punish others.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- from-nibly 2y agoWe have to push the "do not push button" otherwise other people might want to push it.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago> But the state justice system should not be retributive, no matter how much victims want it to be. Perhaps you're looking for a form of government other than democracy?
- unyttigfjelltol 2y ago[flagged]
- pcthrowaway 2y agoA crime, once committed, has been committed. End of story. Nothing can change the past. Seeking to punish isn't justice, it's revenge. It doesn't restore people or society, it feeds a cycle of violence. Justice should be restorative.
- unyttigfjelltol 2y agoSo, since you cannot restore the victim, and past is past, you'll lecture victims about the cycle of violence and tell them to "just get over it"? And call it "justice"?
- pcthrowaway 2y agoI didn't say that at all, and if you do even the most cursory reading of restorative justice you'd know it's pretty much the opposite of "telling victims to 'just get over it'".
- dghlsakjg 2y ago> "We failed to protect you, but we're working hard to protect your perpetrator?" No one suggested that, or anything close to it. Proportionality is a consideration as well. We don't want to hand out the death penalty just because the victim demands it!
- BobaFloutist 2y ago"We failed you but we're taking steps to avoid this happening again in the future" is like textbook institutional apology.
- unyttigfjelltol 2y agoSpoken like someone who has never been the victim of a serious crime.
- sonofhans 2y agoIt blows my mind to see you downvoted for this most simple and straightforward ethical statement — justice and retribution are not the same, and the state should be in the business of justice. From Plato to the Tao, Christianity and Buddhism, Reverend King and Gandhi, most careful thinkers about ethics, philosophy, and government over thousands of years have come to the same conclusion. The purposes of punishment are to remove a dangerous person from circulation, to make amends to victims, and to deter other potential offenders. Revenge does not enter into it. Replies here are talking about how good revenge feels, and threatening mob violence if revenge isn’t granted, but consider that those responses are in a context where there is little justice already. We know in our society that injustice is not often punished, and that revenge (e.g., shooting a healthcare CEO) feels great. That is further proof of the importance of justice, not an argument for retribution.
- _DeadFred_ 2y agoThe official US Federal Government position (and sentencing law) is that promoting correction and rehabilitation are prohibited from sentencing considerations when it comes to imprisonment (and any imprisonment sentence that includes such considerations will be challenged and reversed for resentencing). A prison sentence is a punishment, not a means for correction and/or rehabilitation: 18 U.S. Code § 3582 - Imposition of a sentence of imprisonment.... (a)Factors To Be Considered in Imposing a Term of Imprisonment.— The court, in determining whether to impose a term of imprisonment, and, if a term of imprisonment is to be imposed, in determining the length of the term, shall consider the factors set forth in section 3553(a) to the extent that they are applicable, recognizing that imprisonment is not an appropriate means of promoting correction and rehabilitation
- vidarh 2y agoYet another reason why, if I somehow magically found myself on a US jury (given I'm not American, that's not an actual concern), would find it morally impossible to vote to convict anyone.
- maxerickson 2y agoThat's about the term, not the conditions and resulting impact on the prisoner. Of course, people seem to prefer inhumane, brutal conditions, regardless of the impact.
- tiahura 2y agoThere is too much emphasis on incarceration. It seems like a fair amount of correctional system bureaucracy could be replaced by public horsewhipping. Send a message and send ‘em on their way.
- deadbabe 2y agoAre there any software engineers here working from prison?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- dvektor 2y agoYeah there are two of us in the Maine system working as developers, both for [0]Unlocked Labs. [0] https://unlockedlabs.org https://unlockedlabs.org
- i_love_retros 2y agoThey mentioned in the article that LinkedIn got blocked because of the chat feature. Do they quite heavily restrict what sites you can access then?
- dvektor 2y agoYeah it's essentially on a case by case basis. All the remote workers at this point have earned considerable trust and have more access than a typical college student does. I think I am one of only a couple that weren't required to be a post-graduate to apply, so there is at the very least a few years worth of opportunities to mess up the privilege before that trust is given. But yes, all the typical things you would imagine still obviously blocked (social media, adult content, etc)
- i_love_retros 2y agoInteresting, thanks for the info.
- qingcharles 2y agoA lot of jurisdictions even ban any item that has been printed from the Internet from being sent to a prisoner. I was writing code in jail, but they wouldn't allow any computer books in. An elderly nun bought and smuggled "C# in a Weekend" into the jail for me so I could teach coding.
- kylehotchkiss 2y agoObjectively good policy. Helps better distinguish violent vs nonviolent crimes as far as rehabilitation
- _DeadFred_ 2y agoFun fact, a lot of those new joyless McDonalds remodels had their CAD work done by UNICOR. Remember, prison guards get special bonus' for managing inmates that make the prison money. Now imagine that you are constitutionally a slave (according to the Thirteenth Amendment) and that your prison guard's bonus is tied to your work. You don't get to say no to extra shifts. You don't get to take sick days. You don't get to stop the line (for those making physical products). You don't get to challenge the safety of your workstation (for those making physical products). I'm not saying these programs shouldn't exist, but you need actual safeguards to prevent the current rampant abuse of prisoners (at least on the UNICOR side). Guards should never be 'special UNICOR employees' tied to the program (they really start to see inmates as slaves, their job only exists as long as their facility's UNICOR program is 'successful') and should never have bonus' tied to inmate work output. Currently both of these things occur.
- nickff 2y agoThe Thirteenth Amendment does not say that prisoners are slaves. The text (of section one) is: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” This means that someone could be sentenced to slavery or indentured servitude. Federal prisons require able inmates to work; this is a form of indentured servitude, but it does not necessarily extend to state prisons (or municipal jails). Slaves are property of others (until their death or a decision by their owner to free them), and can be traded or sold. Indentured servants are engaged for a specified period of time, usually to one specific employer.
- mistrial9 2y agoUNICOR tried to get into electronics recycling here in California under SB20.. while Google and MSFT and Apple ran away as fast as possible! not just the management either, lots of ordinary employees in those huge companies knew that electronics recycling is a liability, not "maximizing revenue" .. meanwhile UNICOR looks for more hooks for more contracts.. UNICOR has no concern about the outcome of electronics recycling .. they would make guranteed trash throw-away anything if it meant a new prison labor contract. real edit Walmart uses prison labor to assemble bicycles for kids.. source: eyewitness at a store in California
- itronitron 2y agoThis just reflects that the parole system is broken, among other things. This wouldn't bother me if the USA had universal basic income, public healthcare, free university education, and lower homeless rates.
- i_love_retros 2y ago> This wouldn't bother me if the USA had universal basic income, public healthcare, free university education, and lower homeless rates. So sad that I don't see just one of those happening in America let alone all
- yyyyz 2y agoComes with free healthcare benefits too.
- dvektor 2y agoI really hope this doesn't devolve into just demonizing everyone who is incarcerated, and acting like making bad choices as a teenager means you deserve to be broke and unsuccessful for the rest of your life. I would hope that society would rather me work and pay taxes, offsetting the cost of keeping me here, and giving me hope, responsibilities, discipline and a reason to continue making good life decisions when I am released. 95+% of those incarcerated are getting released one day.. People who have nothing to lose, no sense of self worth, or any feelings of identity with the rest of society are likely not people you want moving in next door to you. I might be in prison but I lead a team of developers and contribute to open source regularly. I found my passion and I am now a contributing, tax paying member of society and no longer identify with the prison subculture at all. It's difficult to see how this outcome could be viewed in any way as negative. I know that I made poor decisions, and I am not proud of them, or who I was at the time at all. I wanted to change my life and Maine gave me an opportunity to do that through hard work and I am extremely grateful for it.
- grayfaced 2y agoI think most of the criticism comes from those worried it will lead to worse conditions. As long as the primary goal is education and reintegration, then it's great. If it becomes a program of squeezing unwilling prisoners to undercut competition then I have big problems with it. I fear the natural course will be cutting prison funding and putting pressure on these programs to bring in money to fund prison necessities.
- willis936 2y agoIndeed. If I have to ask myself questions like "was this product made with forced labor?", "what about coerced?", and "where is the line drawn?" then the right answer is to just walk away.
- throawayonthe 2y ago[dead]
- dvektor 2y ago
- tennisflyi 2y ago[flagged]
- PittleyDunkin 2y agoHow about we treat prisoners as humans having value to begin with? Americans should start with the fundamentals before moving on to exploitation.
- jimbob45 2y agoRemote jobs because of the altruism of these Maine corporations? Or because prisoners come cheap and don't have access to 99% of the job market? I don't want prisoners to be eligible for any jobs. They distort market wages heavily and take away jobs that other, more deserving, individuals could have. If you want to argue that they should be job eligible, then they should just be free in the first place at that point.
- matt3210 2y agoHow can I compete with a prisoner that works for ramen?
- h_tbob 2y agoPrison has been proven to be a horrible idea (Stanford prison experiment) that turns normal people into monsters. The whole thing needs to be abolished. Call me crazy, but the golden rule should be applied to all people. “Do to others what you would have them do to you” I believe that if someone needs to be separated from others because they are dangerous or insane, the government should be obligated to say “this is what I would want done to me”, and treat them as such the entire time. Raw Punishment is asinine and insane, especially when the average person doesn’t even believe politicians who make the law are the most virtuous citizens.