6 ms·

From city center to city center by train vs airplane Rough estimate for a flight: - 36 min train from Gare de l’Est to Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport - 90 m

by kidk 2y ago

From city center to city center by train vs airplane Rough estimate for a flight: - 36 min train from Gare de l’Est to Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport - 90 min arrival before your flight (security, check-in, gate closes before flight leaves, ..) - 100 min flight time - 20 min getting out of the airport - 30 min taxi to Berlin Hbf (assuming no traffic) I think if you have large bags you can add an extra hour (max) even as check-in will take longer, and you'll have to wait for your bag. Which makes it 8,5 hours vs 4.6 hours, or 5.6 hours with bags. (I added 30 minutes to the train as you probably need to be there a little early.) Having done this a couple of times (Amsterdam to Berlin, which is about the same) with both modes of transport. I have to say I prefer the train if I have the time. Much more relaxed way of transportation. You can work the whole way there, and there are ok lunch options on the train.

pantalaimon 2y ago
There is also a night train, which I find even more convenient for long distances. Sure it’s slower, but you’ll spend most of the time sleeping and it saves you one night at a hotel. https://www.nightjet.com/de/reiseziele/frankreich https://www.nightjet.com/de/reiseziele/frankreich
- martijnarts 2y ago
  The night trains are great. It's quite comfortable, you get there in the morning allowing for a full day (after dropping off your bags at the hotel) of work/tourism, and I especially hope Nightjet and other night train companies converts all of their trains to the modern mini cabins[0]. They're incredible. [0]: https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/nightjet-new-generation.htm#mini-cabins https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/nightjet-new-genera...
  - orwin 2y ago
    Night ferrys and night trains are my favourite way of travelling when on vacation.
  - usr1106 2y ago
    Comfortable and comfortable. It's certainly much better than spending a night on a seat. But most people won't sleep well. It's noisy and either too hot or too cold. The bed is hard, narrow and often too short for tall people. I have spent many nights on trains in various countries, seats, floor and berth. I will prefer a couchette or sleeper if the price is somewhat reasonable. But I won't live in the expectation to get something comfortable. Just less uncomfortable.
  - hyhconito 2y ago
    Doesn't work for all of us. I can peacefully fall asleep from the noise of a CFM on an Airbus. On a train, rickety being chucked around all the time and always too hot, nope. I can do 10h on a plane fine. 3h on a train does me in every time.
    - Symbiote 2y ago
      I can't sleep in a seat, which rules out aircraft for any reasonable carbon or dollar price. At least on trains I have a chance. Googling how the climate controlled worked before my previous trip helped, but that followed a hot journey.
- rplnt 2y ago
  Unfortunately more expensive than a plane+hotel and has to be booked well in advance. It's worth the experience, at least for me, but it's not a real alternative.
  - pantalaimon 2y ago
    When I click on a date on that website, e.g. 16.01. I see tickets for 69.90€ on the coach wagon from Berlin to Paris.
    - rplnt 2y ago
      When you said night train you can sleep on I assumed sleeper cars. But to be fair, I always looked at trains to/from Vienna, maybe that's the exception in prices.
      - pantalaimon 2y ago
        Coach is a sleeper car, you just share the cabin with up to 5 people on bunk beds. Although on newer carriages (which I think is the one that goes to Paris) those are sleeping capsules where you have more privacy. I took the trip to Vienna in one of the old bunk bed cars for 60€ and it was fine. I liked the experience of chatting with the fellow passengers in the cabin that you usually don’t have on a normal train ride.
prmoustache 2y ago
Also, if you don't want to go to the bar in the train, you can totally picnic without having to pay airport level of extortion for drink and food. You can bring your own food on a plane but not drinks and if you are having lunch in the plane but it is just not that comfortable, better doing that in the terminal.
rand0m4r 2y ago
Totally agree. I used to go to Holland and Germany from France back when I was living there and even though at the time it would take longer (slower and less trains) the trip was totally worth it: I even met people who eventually became friends. Now, when flying from Spain to France (every couple of years), even though the flight is less than two hours, the entire trip is more than four, and much less fun or enjoyable as far as I'm concerned. For the moment, it's just easier to take the plane but that's supposed to change... We'll see.
tgv 2y ago
There is a lot less capacity, though. And I don't see how that can be improved without massive investments.
chii 2y ago
The majority of the air travel time is spent in the airport, doing "administrative" things. If air travel could be more streamlined (aka, no need for things like security, check-in, like how a train would be), then trains are absolutely uncompetitive on speed. The only advantage of a train would be that you could more easily sleep in one - so an overnight trip is less tiring, and you save on cost of an extra night of hotel stay.
- Scarblac 2y ago
  And there's more to see out of the window, and you can take breaks (leave the train for a couple of hours to explore a city along the way, then continue on the next). And of course it's much better on CO2 emissions. But trains need a lot of infrastructure and long delays are frequent.
  - nh2 2y ago
    On most train tickets you cannot hop off for a couple hours. That would require a new ticket.
    - GJim 2y ago
      [citation needed] This is quite common in Blighty; there is no need for another ticket (outside some time restricted fares where the ability to stop is limited). Indeed, it can be nice hopping off at a new city for a mooch around if you have time to do so. (Only slightly off-topic; We have the phenomenon of 'split tickets', where it can be cheaper to buy two tickets from A --> B --> C rather than one ticket from A --> C even when the train stops at B anyway! You don't even need to get out of the train at B if you don't wish to do so. Our ticketing system is a mess.)
      - nh2 2y ago
        > [citation needed] All saver tickets in German (which is what most people use), and most TGV tickets (even non saver) are bound to specific trains at specific times. https://www.bahn.de/faq/was-bedeutet-zugbindung https://www.bahn.de/faq/was-bedeutet-zugbindung The UK is the odd exception here. But it also doesn't have real high speed trains, except from the one that leaves the country, where hopping off is impossible (unless you want to end up in a dark tunnel under the sea and be arrested afterwards).
weinzierl 2y ago
"I have to say I prefer the train if I have the time. Much more relaxed way of transportation." Me too, but I worry a bit that it might change. A big part of the inconvenience of flying is the security checks[1]. I only see these ramped up for trains as well. Look at the EuroStar for a glimpse into the future. I am afraid it will only take one bigger attack and we will turn train stations into airports security-wise. [1] The other big one is airports being far from centres.
- jltsiren 2y ago
  That won't happen outside a handful of high-profile routes. Railway stations are far too small for security checks with the passenger volume they are handling. Terrorist attacks on trains and railway stations are not that rare. The last major one was in November in Pakistan.
  - em-bee 2y ago
    don't think that will stop them. if china can do security checks with xray of any bags in the subway, then trains in europe can do it too.
- noprocrasted 2y ago
  > Look at the EuroStar for a glimpse into the future This bullshit also happens in Barcelona Sants for the long-distance trains.
- Symbiote 2y ago
  The Channel Tunnel is unique in Europe for being a long, undersea tunnel. No other train in Britain or France has security checks.
  - weinzierl 2y ago
    The Gotthard tunnel is also in Europe and some kilometers longer than the Channel tunnel. I think that one has security checks and the other not has nothing to do with one being under water and the other under rock. I'd be very surprised if their security measures will not harmonize in the long run.
hyhconito 2y ago
Indeed that is the case there but you have to evaluate every journey based on a number of factors. Recently I had to get a train 250km in Italy and it would have been quicker, cheaper and less stressful to fly to London and back due to the problems.
teekert 2y ago
Same for Rotterdam - London, the planes don't fly to the city center + the Train is a premium experience (power, wifi, second class seats on train similar to first class on plane, little cafe to walk to and eat drink, arrives in the city center). All in all this make the time similar but the experience by train much better.
thefz 2y ago
Not to add the comparatively smaller CO2 footprint

by kidk 2y ago

pantalaimon 2y ago

There is also a night train, which I find even more convenient for long distances. Sure it’s slower, but you’ll spend most of the time sleeping and it saves you one night at a hotel. https://www.nightjet.com/de/reiseziele/frankreich https://www.nightjet.com/de/reiseziele/frankreich

martijnarts 2y ago
The night trains are great. It's quite comfortable, you get there in the morning allowing for a full day (after dropping off your bags at the hotel) of work/tourism, and I especially hope Nightjet and other night train companies converts all of their trains to the modern mini cabins[0]. They're incredible. [0]: https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/nightjet-new-generation.htm#mini-cabins https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/nightjet-new-genera...
- orwin 2y ago
  Night ferrys and night trains are my favourite way of travelling when on vacation.
- usr1106 2y ago
  Comfortable and comfortable. It's certainly much better than spending a night on a seat. But most people won't sleep well. It's noisy and either too hot or too cold. The bed is hard, narrow and often too short for tall people. I have spent many nights on trains in various countries, seats, floor and berth. I will prefer a couchette or sleeper if the price is somewhat reasonable. But I won't live in the expectation to get something comfortable. Just less uncomfortable.
- hyhconito 2y ago
  Doesn't work for all of us. I can peacefully fall asleep from the noise of a CFM on an Airbus. On a train, rickety being chucked around all the time and always too hot, nope. I can do 10h on a plane fine. 3h on a train does me in every time.
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    I can't sleep in a seat, which rules out aircraft for any reasonable carbon or dollar price. At least on trains I have a chance. Googling how the climate controlled worked before my previous trip helped, but that followed a hot journey.
rplnt 2y ago
Unfortunately more expensive than a plane+hotel and has to be booked well in advance. It's worth the experience, at least for me, but it's not a real alternative.
- pantalaimon 2y ago
  When I click on a date on that website, e.g. 16.01. I see tickets for 69.90€ on the coach wagon from Berlin to Paris.
  - rplnt 2y ago
    When you said night train you can sleep on I assumed sleeper cars. But to be fair, I always looked at trains to/from Vienna, maybe that's the exception in prices.
    - pantalaimon 2y ago
      Coach is a sleeper car, you just share the cabin with up to 5 people on bunk beds. Although on newer carriages (which I think is the one that goes to Paris) those are sleeping capsules where you have more privacy. I took the trip to Vienna in one of the old bunk bed cars for 60€ and it was fine. I liked the experience of chatting with the fellow passengers in the cabin that you usually don’t have on a normal train ride.

prmoustache 2y ago

Also, if you don't want to go to the bar in the train, you can totally picnic without having to pay airport level of extortion for drink and food. You can bring your own food on a plane but not drinks and if you are having lunch in the plane but it is just not that comfortable, better doing that in the terminal.

rand0m4r 2y ago

Totally agree. I used to go to Holland and Germany from France back when I was living there and even though at the time it would take longer (slower and less trains) the trip was totally worth it: I even met people who eventually became friends. Now, when flying from Spain to France (every couple of years), even though the flight is less than two hours, the entire trip is more than four, and much less fun or enjoyable as far as I'm concerned. For the moment, it's just easier to take the plane but that's supposed to change... We'll see.

tgv 2y ago

There is a lot less capacity, though. And I don't see how that can be improved without massive investments.

chii 2y ago

The majority of the air travel time is spent in the airport, doing "administrative" things. If air travel could be more streamlined (aka, no need for things like security, check-in, like how a train would be), then trains are absolutely uncompetitive on speed. The only advantage of a train would be that you could more easily sleep in one - so an overnight trip is less tiring, and you save on cost of an extra night of hotel stay.

Scarblac 2y ago
And there's more to see out of the window, and you can take breaks (leave the train for a couple of hours to explore a city along the way, then continue on the next). And of course it's much better on CO2 emissions. But trains need a lot of infrastructure and long delays are frequent.
- nh2 2y ago
  On most train tickets you cannot hop off for a couple hours. That would require a new ticket.
  - GJim 2y ago
    [citation needed] This is quite common in Blighty; there is no need for another ticket (outside some time restricted fares where the ability to stop is limited). Indeed, it can be nice hopping off at a new city for a mooch around if you have time to do so. (Only slightly off-topic; We have the phenomenon of 'split tickets', where it can be cheaper to buy two tickets from A --> B --> C rather than one ticket from A --> C even when the train stops at B anyway! You don't even need to get out of the train at B if you don't wish to do so. Our ticketing system is a mess.)
    - nh2 2y ago
      > [citation needed] All saver tickets in German (which is what most people use), and most TGV tickets (even non saver) are bound to specific trains at specific times. https://www.bahn.de/faq/was-bedeutet-zugbindung https://www.bahn.de/faq/was-bedeutet-zugbindung The UK is the odd exception here. But it also doesn't have real high speed trains, except from the one that leaves the country, where hopping off is impossible (unless you want to end up in a dark tunnel under the sea and be arrested afterwards).

weinzierl 2y ago

"I have to say I prefer the train if I have the time. Much more relaxed way of transportation." Me too, but I worry a bit that it might change. A big part of the inconvenience of flying is the security checks[1]. I only see these ramped up for trains as well. Look at the EuroStar for a glimpse into the future. I am afraid it will only take one bigger attack and we will turn train stations into airports security-wise. [1] The other big one is airports being far from centres.

jltsiren 2y ago
That won't happen outside a handful of high-profile routes. Railway stations are far too small for security checks with the passenger volume they are handling. Terrorist attacks on trains and railway stations are not that rare. The last major one was in November in Pakistan.
- em-bee 2y ago
  don't think that will stop them. if china can do security checks with xray of any bags in the subway, then trains in europe can do it too.
noprocrasted 2y ago
> Look at the EuroStar for a glimpse into the future This bullshit also happens in Barcelona Sants for the long-distance trains.
Symbiote 2y ago
The Channel Tunnel is unique in Europe for being a long, undersea tunnel. No other train in Britain or France has security checks.
- weinzierl 2y ago
  The Gotthard tunnel is also in Europe and some kilometers longer than the Channel tunnel. I think that one has security checks and the other not has nothing to do with one being under water and the other under rock. I'd be very surprised if their security measures will not harmonize in the long run.

hyhconito 2y ago

Indeed that is the case there but you have to evaluate every journey based on a number of factors. Recently I had to get a train 250km in Italy and it would have been quicker, cheaper and less stressful to fly to London and back due to the problems.

teekert 2y ago

Same for Rotterdam - London, the planes don't fly to the city center + the Train is a premium experience (power, wifi, second class seats on train similar to first class on plane, little cafe to walk to and eat drink, arrives in the city center). All in all this make the time similar but the experience by train much better.

thefz 2y ago

Not to add the comparatively smaller CO2 footprint