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Doctors Without Borders declares the war in Gaza as genocide

327 points by lr0 2y ago

A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
Related, interesting: > https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/gaza-before-after-satellite-images/ https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/gaza-before-after... > https://www.ap.org/news-highlights/spotlights/2024/gaza-is-in-ruins-after-israels-yearlong-offensive-rebuilding-may-take-decades/ https://www.ap.org/news-highlights/spotlights/2024/gaza-is-i... The strip is bombed out and half in ruins. With the import of construction material into Gaza highly restricted, I wonder how, or if, it'll be rebuilt. It is becoming a true open-air wasteland prison, barely capable of supporting life. So it's hard to dispute the conclusion drawn by Doctors Without Borders, even if the deaths lag behind the damage to infrastructure and shelter.
- bhouston 2y ago
  > the deaths lag behind the damage to infrastructure and shelter. It is pretty clear that the death counts from Gaza are widely inaccurate and incomplete. They are only counting dead if they are brought to the hospitals and then buried. But Israel is bringing down building after building with people in them that are never recovered. And then secondary deaths caused by lack of health facilities are not being counted as dead directly as a result of the conflict, but are definitely caused by it.
  - hirvi74 2y ago
    How does this compare to other wars?
    - throw310822 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - weatherlite 2y ago
        There are no Israeli casualties ? wtf are you on about. There are enough Israeli casualties to completely shake a country to its core. Forget all the dead from the Hamas massacre of October 7th, Israel has 12k+ wounded soldiers. That's an enormous amount for such a small country. It still has around 100k internal refugees. Yes it's way way less than what Gaza has experienced but at the same time - correcting for population - it's so much worse than 9/11. There's no Western country in recent time that went through something event remotely similar to what Israel has gone and is going through.
        throw310822 2y ago
        I would leave aside all proportions and corrections for population: because otherwise you need to multiply by a factor between 2 and 4 the deaths and injuries in Gaza to compare them with those of Israel. You'd probably not want to. Besides this, the number of Israeli casualties in the Gaza invasion amount to a few hundred soldiers while the Palestinians ones are two orders of magnitude higher, and most of them civilians. If you have more precise data plase share.
        weatherlite 2y ago
        > I would leave aside all proportions and corrections for population: because otherwise you need to multiply by a factor between 2 and 4 the deaths and injuries in Gaza to compare them with those of Israel. You'd probably not want to. Why wouldn't I want to ? I'm not gonna deny for a moment what Gaza is going through isn't traumatic, of course it is. That's reality. And saying what Israel is going through is nothing is delusional as well.
        throw310822 2y ago
        I think comparing what Israel is going through with the destruction of Gaza- which is comparable to that of Dresden or Warsaw, a wasteland of ruins, starving people, corpses and amputated civilians- is, well, obscene.
    - bhouston 2y ago
      Wikipedia says this about WWII: "Deaths directly caused by the war (including military and civilian fatalities) are estimated at 50–56 million, with an additional estimated 19–28 million deaths from war-related disease and famine. Civilian deaths totaled 50–55 million." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#:~:text=Deaths%20directly%20caused%20by%20the,deaths%20totaled%2050–55%20million https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#:~:tex.... We should expect similar numbers for Gaza in terms of additional indirect deaths. But the current numbers for Gaza still are an undercount of direct deaths.
      - randunel 2y ago
        WW2 was often at equilibrium. The bombing of Gaza is pretty one sided. A comparison might be better with other one sided conflicts.
        addicted 2y ago
        A good comparable is Russia’s attack on Grozny. 5000-8000 dead in a city with a population of about 200,000.
        jiggawatts 2y ago
        The population of Gaza is about two million so the proportional death toll would be in the 50K-80K range. In other words, not out of the norm for this type of warfare.
      - belorn 2y ago
        A better (and more recent) conflict would be US war on terror, with a death count around 400 thousands to 6 millions. The numbers varies extremely. The US military claims that only a total of 20 civilians has died to drone strikes. At the other extreme, others has estimated that 10 civilians has died per killed military which would represent a civilian to combatant casualty ratio of 10:1. In iraq, the Iraq Body Count project estimate a civilian casualty rate of 77%, which is quite similar to the 68% and 83% estimated given by B'Tselem and Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. It should be mentioned that genocide is not defined by number of deaths or civilian casualty rate, but instead about the intention. US killing people with drones, even if the wast majority is civilians and committed for poor reasons, are not considered genocide. If that is fair or not is up to debate.
    - 4gotunameagain 2y ago
      It is for sure much more lopsided than other wars, as the Israeli deaths have been minimal. Which strengthens the argument for a genocide, not a war.
      - taskforcegemini 2y ago
        >Which strengthens the argument for a genocide, not a war. Should Israel sacrifice more of its own people for the war to appear more fair? It's not like their adversaries aren't/weren't trying..
    - randomcarbloke 2y ago
      it actually ranks quite reasonably for civilian casualties even if we believe the Hamas figures (which we shouldn't), it's clear Israel are doing their best to minimize civvy losses.
      - z3ncyberpunk 2y ago
        Is that a sick joke?
    - maeil 2y ago
      > Key findings > By almost every metric, the harm to civilians from the first month of the Israeli campaign in Gaza is incomparable with any 21st century air campaign. It is by far the most intense, destructive, and fatal conflict for civilians that Airwars has ever documented. Key findings include: > At least 5,139 civilians were killed in Gaza in 25 days in October 2023. This is nearly four times more civilians reported killed in a single month than in any conflict Airwars has documented since it was established in 2014. In October 2023 alone, Airwars documented at least 65 incidents in which a minimum of 20 civilians were killed in a particular incident. This is nearly triple the number of such high-fatality incidents that Airwars has documented within any comparable timeframe. > Over the course of 25 days, Airwars recorded a minimum of 1,900 children killed by Israeli military action in Gaza. This is nearly seven times higher than even the most deadly month for children previously recorded by Airwars. > Families were killed together in unprecedented numbers, and in their homes. More than nine out of ten women and children were killed in residential buildings. In more than 95 percent of all cases where a woman was killed, at least one child was also killed. > On average, when civilians were killed alongside family members, at least 15 family members were killed. This is higher than any other conflict documented by Airwars. Seems like a neutral source that documents all conflicts focusing on the casualties.
      - coryfklein 2y ago
        We are pretty early in the 21st century. Would probably be rather different results if the 20th century was included.
        pas 2y ago
        One one hand, indeed, we're approximately at "one quarterth" of the century. On the other a high-tech well-funded professional combined-arms military with total air supremacy in complete control of the perimeter is ought to be capable of being more careful. And maybe it is, just wasn't feelin' it.
        coryfklein 2y ago
        Well that. But also geurilla warfare against non-uniformed combatants that use public infrastructure for military purposes has inherently higher civilian casualties. It's not going to be all one thing or another.
    - Paradigma11 2y ago
      It looks pretty similar in magnitude to the siege of Grozny by the Russians.
  - hintymad 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - tdeck 2y ago
      It's beyond me how someone can believe you can carpet bomb a city where 2 million people live and kill fewer than 40,000 people. In fact, I don't find myself able to believe that people genuinely think that.
      - Purplehermann 2y ago
        Giving notice is helpful
        notnaut 2y ago
        This is not a serious perspective.
        tdeck 2y ago
        Indeed https://gaza-patterns-harm.airwars.org/ https://gaza-patterns-harm.airwars.org/
      - mahkeiro 2y ago
        Israel dropped about 7x the equivalent of the Hiroshima bomb on Gaza, a small strip of land. This statistic alone is sufficient.
        weatherlite 2y ago
        I don't get what this statistic truly signify. between 90,000–166,000 people died in Hiroshima - almost all civilians naturally, while way fewer people died in Gaza - many civilians but also many Hamas people. I'm not denying a lot of bombing went on in Gaza but obviously it was way less lethal and way more surgical than what happened in Hirsohima, otherwise you can't really explain the death toll difference.
  - dlubarov 2y ago
    This was true early in the war, but Gaza's health ministry has long since shifted to collecting reports of deaths from "reliable media sources". One source of data is a Google form which they set up in March. There are also reports claiming that GHM has counted natural deaths in their figures, which I don't think GHM has really denied (their releases don't say much about methodology). And of course they include militant deaths.
    - okokhacker 2y ago
      Are you trying to run damage control here or something? I’m not sure why the GHM is being centered in this thread rather than the people who have been killed. I agree with what bhouston said. With so much destruction and death happening (even right now), I suspect it will take very long to get an accurate count. The original comment’s implication that infrastructure damage is somehow more damaging than the human death toll is abhorrent.
      - A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
        > The original comment’s implication that infrastructure damage is somehow more damaging than the human death toll is abhorrent. If you're referring to my comment, you misunderstood. It's not "more damaging" -- it's that the two are highly correlated, and that damage to infrastructure and shelter is indicative of the "war on noncombatants" nature of this conflict. We don't know how many deaths there are, but we can see with our own eyes how the entire territory is being rendered unfit for habitation.
        okokhacker 2y ago
        Gotcha, sorry about that. Thanks for putting it in context. Some of the images of the landscape in Gaza are truly haunting
      - dlubarov 2y ago
        You agree with which part? Hopefully not the part about only counting hospital deaths, which was inaccurate (I'm sure it was an honest mistake). Not trying to minimize the suffering that's happening, but it's important to have our facts straight when genocide accusations are being tossed around.
bhouston 2y ago
And HRW says the same thing specifically with regards to Israel's targeted destruction of water resources: https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/12/19/israels-crime-extermination-acts-genocide-gaza https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/12/19/israels-crime-exterminat... That adds to Amnesty International's declaration that Israel's action fit the definition of genocide a few weeks ago: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-international-concludes-israel-is-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-inter... Anyhow, there are so many companies in the US that are complicit including in particular Google - it knew its software was likely to be used for human rights violations in Israel and they valued getting money over going the right thing: https://www.timesofisrael.com/google-said-worried-contract-with-israel-could-damage-its-reputation/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/google-said-worried-contract-w... EDIT: Instantly downvoted to -2 on a factual comment that links to high quality resources? Feels like bots to me.
- ghufran_syed 2y ago
  so was the dam-busters raid by england in ww2 against nazi germany also “genocide”? or were they both just “warfare” as the events of Rwanda showed, it doesn’t take very long for a nation state to successfully complete genocide. So are the israelis really incompetent at genocide, to the point where they drop leaflets that say when they’re going to bomb a building and call cell phones in the area to tell the civilian population to get out? or is this just the usual propaganda and hyperbole?
  - FireBeyond 2y ago
    > to the point where they drop leaflets that say when they’re going to bomb a building and call cell phones in the area to tell the civilian population to get out What about the times they tell the civilians to move to, say, Southern Gaza, because they're going to start bombing Northern Gaza more heavily, and then when they do, they increase bombing of Southern Gaza by 85%? https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-war-satellite-data-shows-israel-intensifying-bombing-of-south-12993277 https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-war-satellite-data-shows-isr... > it doesn’t take very long for a nation state to successfully complete genocide I didn't realize you had to "complete" a genocide within a certain time limit. Besides, what's the rush? The global reaction so far is that there'll be loud words and fists thumped on tables, but that they'll let Israel do largely whatever it wants.
esalman 2y ago
The fact that you look at this banner- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/04/giant-anti-israel-banner-unfurled-outside-parliament/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/04/giant-anti-israe... .. And instantly know what it's about, pretty much rests the case.
- drooby 2y ago
  Genocide requires proving intentionality. Specifically, the deliberate intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a protected group. This is a serious and complex standard, and it’s central to the legal definition. It's like the distinctions between murder and manslaughter in criminal law. Intent and premeditation are key factors that separate them. These kinds of distinctions matter because they preserve the legal and moral weight of crimes like genocide, which shouldn’t be diminished by rushing to label something without meeting the specific criteria. That’s why it’s important to avoid being too quick to judge. Determining intent, especially on this scale, takes time and a thorough review of all the facts, patterns of actions, policies, statements, and more. These are exactly the kinds of questions that need to be decided in court, where the evidence can be fully weighed and assessed. Thank god we don't just look at a banner and say case closed... jfc..
  - defrost 2y ago
    There's no shortage of material in print calling for the destruction of Gaza, the non personhood of Palestinians, etc. from Israel ministers and commentators from before the October attacks by Hamas. You can, for example, look to the Journal of Genocide Research at articles that draw parallels between Holocaust scholar Eugene's Finkel's declaration of Ukraine as a genocidal event and his point by point justification and similar parallels with Israel and Gaza. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2024.2325804 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2024.2...
  - calmbonsai 2y ago
    Ironically, I think the closest historical context is the British military in east Africa (roughly what is now Kenya) to the Kikuyu in the late 1880s.
xmcbxnmc 2y ago
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stogot 2y ago
I know this is a controversial issue. But honest question: what is a ceasefire going to do? Hamas refuses to surrender, so it’s only a few years until another Oct 7, and then it starts again. What other option does Israel have? They’ve been fighting these wars for years and they’ve now decided to continue this one vs waiting for a new one in three years
- clydethefrog 2y ago
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  - SauciestGNU 2y ago
    Mass suicide
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- bdjsiqoocwk 2y ago
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- jfwuasdfs 2y ago
  A cease-fire may buy us time to figure out a long-term solution.
  - kojdels 2y ago
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    - selcuka 2y ago
      It's interesting that we don't count Israel as a religious lunatic state.
      - shepherdjerred 2y ago
        Israel's stated goal is not to kill unlike Hamas
thruway516 2y ago
Why was this flagged?
- drooby 2y ago
  Clearly off-topic for HN. > Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
  - thruway516 2y ago
    Really? Change the conflict to a different one and it doesn't seem all that unusual or off topic by hn standards >And they have bullied/co-opted the rest of the world into silence or indifference.
  - kbelder 2y ago
    HN often covers major news events, and wars fall into that category. Their impact is wide-ranging and of large import. I don't see an issue with the occasional HN coverage of it. I could see an argument that this conflict might be getting a disproportionate amount of posts, because it seems to have aroused a lot of passion among some of the HN audience. Would Doctors Without Borders condemning Russia in Ukraine warrant a HN post? Don't know, probably not.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      It wasn't the moral condemnation, but their weighing in on a hotly disputed case (along with the fact that they're a highly respected organization with first-hand knowledge of what's been happening on the ground) that makes the post interesting and relevant. Unfortunately the poster botched/distorted the article title, but that's a separate issue.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    Evidence of some interesting new phenomenon Not entirely new, but certainly interesting and relevant in the sense of one of the world's most highly respected organizations weighing in on one of the most flagrant large-scale violation of human rights in our time (that many prefer to pretend to believe isn't happening at all). Clearly on-topic for HN.
calmbonsai 2y ago
Well, I'm pretty certain by any reasonable (UN, AI, HRN, etc.) standard, it became genocide quite some time ago when Israel: 1. Used precision guided weapons in unguided-mode to take out entire buildings including schools and hospitals 2. Used precision guided weapons in guided-mode to take out cars and food supply trucks of the World Central Kitchen workers when the cars were clearly demarcated as UN 3. Blocked I18n (not just UN) food & water aid 4. Precisely demolished water, sewer, and electrical infrastructure 5. Denied PoWs fundamental rights under the UN charter
- addicted 2y ago
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  - text0404 2y ago
    > 4. I’ve seen absolutely no evidence for this you can do a basic google search to answer your questions. i searched for "israel palestine water access" and these were the first page: "Human Rights Watch accuses Israel of acts of genocide in Gaza over water access" - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c75wqr0k3dyo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c75wqr0k3dyo (same coverage from Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/19/israel-accused-of-act-of-genocide-over-restriction-of-gaza-water-supply-human-rights-watch https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/19/israel-accused...) "Israel using water as weapon of war as Gaza supply plummets by 94%, creating deadly health catastrophe: Oxfam" - https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/israel-using-water-weapon-war-gaza-supply-plummets-94-creating-deadly-health https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/israel-using-water-w... https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2024/12/israel-strikes-yemen-ports-power-stations-retaliation-against-houthis https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2024/12/israel-strikes-... https://www.csis.org/analysis/siege-gazas-water https://www.csis.org/analysis/siege-gazas-water https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/9/1/israel-cuts-water-and-power-as-jenin-siege-worsens https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/9/1/israel-c... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/israel-opt-israel-must-lift-illegal-and-inhumane-blockade-on-gaza-as-power-plant-runs-out-of-fuel/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/israel-opt-is... https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/in-gazas-widening-humanitarian-crisis-water-access-becomes-dire https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/in-gazas-widening-humanit... > 5. Hamas fighters are not fighting in uniform. They do qualify as Prisoners of War. this is not adequate cover for Israel's indiscriminate killing of civilians. the geneva conventions do not work this way. > Israel has blocked aid for short periods of time in certain areas. For the most part, the failure of aid reaching where it needs to go has been a result of Israel being unable to provide security. We’ve seen what happens when Israelis don’t provide security for aid workers. They get looted and killed. no, they've blocked access for long periods of time. this is why there is a famine: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-experts-declare-famine-has-spread-throughout-gaza-strip https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-experts-d... they are also killing aid workers who have cleared their routes with the IDF beforehand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Central_Kitchen_aid_convoy_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Central_Kitchen_aid_conv... https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/09/1154206 https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/09/1154206 > the pro Palestinian sides have absolutely destroyed the opportunity for moderation and negotiation by labeling Israel’s actions as genocide from day 1 yes, because the genocide has been occuring since 1947. i would highly recommend reading the history of this conflict as it started long before Oct 7 2023.
calmbonsai 2y ago
Sadly, there's a reason the "Gaza tourniquet" had to be invented. https://glia.org/pages/the-glia-tourniquet-project https://glia.org/pages/the-glia-tourniquet-project
dzhiurgis 2y ago
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- mo7061 2y ago
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grumpycamel 2y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9n77DPJ7AE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9n77DPJ7AE This guy has a very accessible take on the proper United Nations definition of genocide and how it applies to the Gaza and Ukraine war. Gemini summary: >>>> This video discusses the definition of genocide and its application to current events. The speaker argues that many people misuse the term to describe any atrocity, while genocide specifically refers to the intent to eliminate a group of people. The speaker uses the examples of the war in Gaza and the arrest warrant for Vladimir Putin to illustrate this point. They argue that while there are many civilian casualties in Gaza, it's unclear if there's an intent to eliminate the entire Palestinian people. In contrast, Putin's forced deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia aligns more clearly with the definition of genocide. The speaker emphasizes the importance of using the term accurately to avoid diluting its meaning and to properly address serious crimes. <<<<
- eNV25 2y ago
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  - thenaturalist 2y ago
    So the UN is great if it's against Israel and Bibi Netanyahu and irrelevant if it goes against your own, preconceived opinions? Got it!
- clydethefrog 2y ago
  Anders Puck Nielsen is a Danish military analyst and naval captain at the Royal Danish Defence College, he is not a human rights lawyer. I will trust the organisations and experts that have studied human rights in deciding if a genocide is occuring.
  - Sammi 2y ago
    That's an impossible standard, and by it you should also stop having opinions on this matter.
graymatters 2y ago
[flagged]
alex1138 2y ago
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- lr0 2y ago
  SCIAF, Christian Aid, Age International , Trocaire, Plan International, Bond and Cafod, and many other 'charities'[1] (MSF is obviously not a charity, you at least could have opened the link but you clearly do not know what you are talking about) declared what's have been going in Gaza as genocide. Amnesty International made in January a UN call consisted of 250 global charities, organizations and institutions to stop the genocide in Gaza, either you are not actually giving money to charity or you are having a very hard time fining one. [1]: https://www.quaker.org.uk/documents/public-statement-uk-charities-key-step-new-government-must-take-first-100-days-address-gaza-catastrophe https://www.quaker.org.uk/documents/public-statement-uk-char...
aaron695 2y ago
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maeil 2y ago
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- thenaturalist 2y ago
  Quotes a guy as an example of a sweeping generalization who is massively controversial in his own country, is facing domestic charges and has tens of thousands of citizens protesting against him regularly. Your choice of quotes is indeed not very interesting, but rather shows how little you know about Israel. You should visit some time it's a beautiful and diverse country. I'm sure you'll learn a lot.
  - okokhacker 2y ago
    While you’re at it visit the OPT too! It will show you exactly how invested Israel is on diversity.
    - thenaturalist 2y ago
      Happily will do so! I’ll try to answer my following research questions: If Palestinians want a state so badly, why didn’t they accept one in 1948? In the following decades, when Gaza was Egyptian, the West Bank was Jordanian and the Golan heights Syrian, why didn’t their Arab brothers give them their own state? Where were the Palestinians in ‘67 when these Arab leaders decided to attack Israel, got a bloody nose and created the mess we’re in today? Where were the Palestinians in the 90s, when Arafat could have given them their own state with East Jerusalem as their capital? Where were the demonstrations, streets filled with crowds, demanding peace and their own state? My history and just observing current events with my eyes are telling me that instead of making their state a reality as they could have multiple times, Palestinians are weirdly obsessed with the existence of Israel as a whole and streets are only filled with cheering crowds if Israeli hostages or bodies are paraded through them. Meanwhile, Israel has two Supreme Court judges of Arab descent, one of whom sent two Jewish Prime Ministers to prison, the recent head of Israel’s oldest and largest bank was an Israeli Arab, Arab citizens are part of the national soccer team, the police, the medical services, the judiciary, the list goes on and on. Looks like it’s the same in Israel as the rest of the world: If you’re not hellbent on killing your neighbor because you discriminate them based on their creed, looks, whatever, people welcome you to take part in society.
ukblewis 2y ago
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486sx33 2y ago
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- lossolo 2y ago
  The war could be over to tomorrow if Israel stops illegally occupying Palestinian territory. The consequences for creating illegal settlements should be massive to let the world know that stealing others people land is not acceptable.
  - commandlinefan 2y ago
    But isn't it the Palestinian's position that all of Israel is Palestinian territory?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - derelicta 2y ago
      Bingo! It is, because it is.
    - FireBeyond 2y ago
      A lot of people like to point to Palestinians and organizations saying "From the River (Jordan) to the (Red) Sea" as "evidence" of this. Most of those people are unaware that Palestinians and those organizations directly took that saying from Likud, the hard right political party currently in power in Israel - the saying was a literal election campaign of Likud in the 1970s.
      - okokhacker 2y ago
        I don’t think anyone uses a saying to back claims over land. In any case, your comment seems to suggest that Palestinians /could not/ have come up with this phrase, and had to resort to stealing the occupier’s, which is wildly misleading. In any case, the origin of the phrase is ascertain.
sershe 2y ago
I dunno, Gaza (on per-sqkm basis) still looks nothing like Hamburg '43. Until it looks at least like that everywhere, I'd say Israel is being too soft given the historical precedent on dealing with these kinds of movements.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  I dunno, Gaza (on per-sqkm basis) still looks nothing like Hamburg '43. In fact the numbers of civilians killed are roughly similar (probably 30k for Gaza vs. 40k for Hamburg 43-45) against roughly equal pre-war population size (about 1.5M for each). And the pictures are of course awfully similar as well (depending on where one wishes to zoom in). And Israel's not anywhere near done with Gaza yet. But of course you were just hand-waving, which is why you started off with "I dunno". Until it looks at least like that everywhere, I'd say Israel is being too soft An incredibly crass and nasty thing to say about a largely innocent population being steadily bombed into the ground.
- okokhacker 2y ago
  On the surface this is just another callous comment but you are making a few dangerous implications here: 1. Gaza is not as bad as Hamburg (for which no proof was provided) 2. Gaza has to be as bad as Hamburg for it to be called a genocide 3. You want Israel to make Gaza look like Hamburg ‘43 4. The historical precedent (without even getting into land occupation) of movements justifies a genocide.
EvgeniyZh 2y ago
Another day, another organization redefines genocide to fit their narrative, doesn't mention hostages held in Gaza and gets manually unflagged by admins. Business as usual.
- pas 2y ago
  there are many definitions already. what's yours? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions#List_of_definitions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions#List_of_d...
  - EvgeniyZh 2y ago
    > almost all international bodies of law officially adjudicate the crime of genocide pursuant to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). > This and other definitions are generally regarded by the majority of genocide scholars to have an "intent to destroy" as a requirement for any act to be labelled genocide This post mentions intent once: > While we don't have legal authority to establish intentionality But anyway somehow > What our medical teams have witnessed ... is consistent with the descriptions ... that genocide is taking place in Gaza and then the title was changed from "Gaza death trap: MSF report exposes Israel’s campaign of total destruction" to "Doctors Without Borders declares the war in Gaza as genocide"
    - shkkmo 2y ago
      > This post mentions intent once Intent is something that will be proved if the any of the war criminals in this conflict (on either side) ever face justice. The relevant authorities have been pretty clear there is adequate evidence of intent to issue arrest warrants. MSF care less about the label, and more about convicinging the international community to force Isreal into a ceasefire so they can do their job and save lives. It is unsurprising that MSF doesn't discuss intent, since it is the practical actions that concern them here, not the motivation behind them.
      - EvgeniyZh 2y ago
tdiff 2y ago
If Israel commits genocide, and US actively supports Israel with weapons, do they imply US is at least supporting genocide in 21 century?

327 points by lr0 2y ago

Related, interesting: > https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/gaza-before-after-satellite-images/ https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/gaza-before-after... > https://www.ap.org/news-highlights/spotlights/2024/gaza-is-in-ruins-after-israels-yearlong-offensive-rebuilding-may-take-decades/ https://www.ap.org/news-highlights/spotlights/2024/gaza-is-i... The strip is bombed out and half in ruins. With the import of construction material into Gaza highly restricted, I wonder how, or if, it'll be rebuilt. It is becoming a true open-air wasteland prison, barely capable of supporting life. So it's hard to dispute the conclusion drawn by Doctors Without Borders, even if the deaths lag behind the damage to infrastructure and shelter.

bhouston 2y ago
> the deaths lag behind the damage to infrastructure and shelter. It is pretty clear that the death counts from Gaza are widely inaccurate and incomplete. They are only counting dead if they are brought to the hospitals and then buried. But Israel is bringing down building after building with people in them that are never recovered. And then secondary deaths caused by lack of health facilities are not being counted as dead directly as a result of the conflict, but are definitely caused by it.
- hirvi74 2y ago
  How does this compare to other wars?
  - throw310822 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - weatherlite 2y ago
      There are no Israeli casualties ? wtf are you on about. There are enough Israeli casualties to completely shake a country to its core. Forget all the dead from the Hamas massacre of October 7th, Israel has 12k+ wounded soldiers. That's an enormous amount for such a small country. It still has around 100k internal refugees. Yes it's way way less than what Gaza has experienced but at the same time - correcting for population - it's so much worse than 9/11. There's no Western country in recent time that went through something event remotely similar to what Israel has gone and is going through.
      - throw310822 2y ago
        I would leave aside all proportions and corrections for population: because otherwise you need to multiply by a factor between 2 and 4 the deaths and injuries in Gaza to compare them with those of Israel. You'd probably not want to. Besides this, the number of Israeli casualties in the Gaza invasion amount to a few hundred soldiers while the Palestinians ones are two orders of magnitude higher, and most of them civilians. If you have more precise data plase share.
        weatherlite 2y ago
        > I would leave aside all proportions and corrections for population: because otherwise you need to multiply by a factor between 2 and 4 the deaths and injuries in Gaza to compare them with those of Israel. You'd probably not want to. Why wouldn't I want to ? I'm not gonna deny for a moment what Gaza is going through isn't traumatic, of course it is. That's reality. And saying what Israel is going through is nothing is delusional as well.
        throw310822 2y ago
        I think comparing what Israel is going through with the destruction of Gaza- which is comparable to that of Dresden or Warsaw, a wasteland of ruins, starving people, corpses and amputated civilians- is, well, obscene.
  - bhouston 2y ago
    Wikipedia says this about WWII: "Deaths directly caused by the war (including military and civilian fatalities) are estimated at 50–56 million, with an additional estimated 19–28 million deaths from war-related disease and famine. Civilian deaths totaled 50–55 million." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#:~:text=Deaths%20directly%20caused%20by%20the,deaths%20totaled%2050–55%20million https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#:~:tex.... We should expect similar numbers for Gaza in terms of additional indirect deaths. But the current numbers for Gaza still are an undercount of direct deaths.
    - randunel 2y ago
      WW2 was often at equilibrium. The bombing of Gaza is pretty one sided. A comparison might be better with other one sided conflicts.
      - addicted 2y ago
        A good comparable is Russia’s attack on Grozny. 5000-8000 dead in a city with a population of about 200,000.
        jiggawatts 2y ago
        The population of Gaza is about two million so the proportional death toll would be in the 50K-80K range. In other words, not out of the norm for this type of warfare.
    - belorn 2y ago
      A better (and more recent) conflict would be US war on terror, with a death count around 400 thousands to 6 millions. The numbers varies extremely. The US military claims that only a total of 20 civilians has died to drone strikes. At the other extreme, others has estimated that 10 civilians has died per killed military which would represent a civilian to combatant casualty ratio of 10:1. In iraq, the Iraq Body Count project estimate a civilian casualty rate of 77%, which is quite similar to the 68% and 83% estimated given by B'Tselem and Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. It should be mentioned that genocide is not defined by number of deaths or civilian casualty rate, but instead about the intention. US killing people with drones, even if the wast majority is civilians and committed for poor reasons, are not considered genocide. If that is fair or not is up to debate.
  - 4gotunameagain 2y ago
    It is for sure much more lopsided than other wars, as the Israeli deaths have been minimal. Which strengthens the argument for a genocide, not a war.
    - taskforcegemini 2y ago
      >Which strengthens the argument for a genocide, not a war. Should Israel sacrifice more of its own people for the war to appear more fair? It's not like their adversaries aren't/weren't trying..
  - randomcarbloke 2y ago
    it actually ranks quite reasonably for civilian casualties even if we believe the Hamas figures (which we shouldn't), it's clear Israel are doing their best to minimize civvy losses.
    - z3ncyberpunk 2y ago
      Is that a sick joke?
  - maeil 2y ago
    > Key findings > By almost every metric, the harm to civilians from the first month of the Israeli campaign in Gaza is incomparable with any 21st century air campaign. It is by far the most intense, destructive, and fatal conflict for civilians that Airwars has ever documented. Key findings include: > At least 5,139 civilians were killed in Gaza in 25 days in October 2023. This is nearly four times more civilians reported killed in a single month than in any conflict Airwars has documented since it was established in 2014. In October 2023 alone, Airwars documented at least 65 incidents in which a minimum of 20 civilians were killed in a particular incident. This is nearly triple the number of such high-fatality incidents that Airwars has documented within any comparable timeframe. > Over the course of 25 days, Airwars recorded a minimum of 1,900 children killed by Israeli military action in Gaza. This is nearly seven times higher than even the most deadly month for children previously recorded by Airwars. > Families were killed together in unprecedented numbers, and in their homes. More than nine out of ten women and children were killed in residential buildings. In more than 95 percent of all cases where a woman was killed, at least one child was also killed. > On average, when civilians were killed alongside family members, at least 15 family members were killed. This is higher than any other conflict documented by Airwars. Seems like a neutral source that documents all conflicts focusing on the casualties.
    - coryfklein 2y ago
      We are pretty early in the 21st century. Would probably be rather different results if the 20th century was included.
      - pas 2y ago
        One one hand, indeed, we're approximately at "one quarterth" of the century. On the other a high-tech well-funded professional combined-arms military with total air supremacy in complete control of the perimeter is ought to be capable of being more careful. And maybe it is, just wasn't feelin' it.
        coryfklein 2y ago
        Well that. But also geurilla warfare against non-uniformed combatants that use public infrastructure for military purposes has inherently higher civilian casualties. It's not going to be all one thing or another.
  - Paradigma11 2y ago
    It looks pretty similar in magnitude to the siege of Grozny by the Russians.
- hintymad 2y ago
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  - tdeck 2y ago
    It's beyond me how someone can believe you can carpet bomb a city where 2 million people live and kill fewer than 40,000 people. In fact, I don't find myself able to believe that people genuinely think that.
    - Purplehermann 2y ago
      Giving notice is helpful
      - notnaut 2y ago
        This is not a serious perspective.
        tdeck 2y ago
        Indeed https://gaza-patterns-harm.airwars.org/ https://gaza-patterns-harm.airwars.org/
    - mahkeiro 2y ago
      Israel dropped about 7x the equivalent of the Hiroshima bomb on Gaza, a small strip of land. This statistic alone is sufficient.
      - weatherlite 2y ago
        I don't get what this statistic truly signify. between 90,000–166,000 people died in Hiroshima - almost all civilians naturally, while way fewer people died in Gaza - many civilians but also many Hamas people. I'm not denying a lot of bombing went on in Gaza but obviously it was way less lethal and way more surgical than what happened in Hirsohima, otherwise you can't really explain the death toll difference.
- dlubarov 2y ago
  This was true early in the war, but Gaza's health ministry has long since shifted to collecting reports of deaths from "reliable media sources". One source of data is a Google form which they set up in March. There are also reports claiming that GHM has counted natural deaths in their figures, which I don't think GHM has really denied (their releases don't say much about methodology). And of course they include militant deaths.
  - okokhacker 2y ago
    Are you trying to run damage control here or something? I’m not sure why the GHM is being centered in this thread rather than the people who have been killed. I agree with what bhouston said. With so much destruction and death happening (even right now), I suspect it will take very long to get an accurate count. The original comment’s implication that infrastructure damage is somehow more damaging than the human death toll is abhorrent.
    - A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
      > The original comment’s implication that infrastructure damage is somehow more damaging than the human death toll is abhorrent. If you're referring to my comment, you misunderstood. It's not "more damaging" -- it's that the two are highly correlated, and that damage to infrastructure and shelter is indicative of the "war on noncombatants" nature of this conflict. We don't know how many deaths there are, but we can see with our own eyes how the entire territory is being rendered unfit for habitation.
      - okokhacker 2y ago
        Gotcha, sorry about that. Thanks for putting it in context. Some of the images of the landscape in Gaza are truly haunting
    - dlubarov 2y ago
      You agree with which part? Hopefully not the part about only counting hospital deaths, which was inaccurate (I'm sure it was an honest mistake). Not trying to minimize the suffering that's happening, but it's important to have our facts straight when genocide accusations are being tossed around.

bhouston 2y ago

And HRW says the same thing specifically with regards to Israel's targeted destruction of water resources: https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/12/19/israels-crime-extermination-acts-genocide-gaza https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/12/19/israels-crime-exterminat... That adds to Amnesty International's declaration that Israel's action fit the definition of genocide a few weeks ago: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-international-concludes-israel-is-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-inter... Anyhow, there are so many companies in the US that are complicit including in particular Google - it knew its software was likely to be used for human rights violations in Israel and they valued getting money over going the right thing: https://www.timesofisrael.com/google-said-worried-contract-with-israel-could-damage-its-reputation/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/google-said-worried-contract-w... EDIT: Instantly downvoted to -2 on a factual comment that links to high quality resources? Feels like bots to me.

ghufran_syed 2y ago
so was the dam-busters raid by england in ww2 against nazi germany also “genocide”? or were they both just “warfare” as the events of Rwanda showed, it doesn’t take very long for a nation state to successfully complete genocide. So are the israelis really incompetent at genocide, to the point where they drop leaflets that say when they’re going to bomb a building and call cell phones in the area to tell the civilian population to get out? or is this just the usual propaganda and hyperbole?
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  > to the point where they drop leaflets that say when they’re going to bomb a building and call cell phones in the area to tell the civilian population to get out What about the times they tell the civilians to move to, say, Southern Gaza, because they're going to start bombing Northern Gaza more heavily, and then when they do, they increase bombing of Southern Gaza by 85%? https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-war-satellite-data-shows-israel-intensifying-bombing-of-south-12993277 https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-war-satellite-data-shows-isr... > it doesn’t take very long for a nation state to successfully complete genocide I didn't realize you had to "complete" a genocide within a certain time limit. Besides, what's the rush? The global reaction so far is that there'll be loud words and fists thumped on tables, but that they'll let Israel do largely whatever it wants.

esalman 2y ago

The fact that you look at this banner- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/04/giant-anti-israel-banner-unfurled-outside-parliament/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/04/giant-anti-israe... .. And instantly know what it's about, pretty much rests the case.

drooby 2y ago
Genocide requires proving intentionality. Specifically, the deliberate intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a protected group. This is a serious and complex standard, and it’s central to the legal definition. It's like the distinctions between murder and manslaughter in criminal law. Intent and premeditation are key factors that separate them. These kinds of distinctions matter because they preserve the legal and moral weight of crimes like genocide, which shouldn’t be diminished by rushing to label something without meeting the specific criteria. That’s why it’s important to avoid being too quick to judge. Determining intent, especially on this scale, takes time and a thorough review of all the facts, patterns of actions, policies, statements, and more. These are exactly the kinds of questions that need to be decided in court, where the evidence can be fully weighed and assessed. Thank god we don't just look at a banner and say case closed... jfc..
- defrost 2y ago
  There's no shortage of material in print calling for the destruction of Gaza, the non personhood of Palestinians, etc. from Israel ministers and commentators from before the October attacks by Hamas. You can, for example, look to the Journal of Genocide Research at articles that draw parallels between Holocaust scholar Eugene's Finkel's declaration of Ukraine as a genocidal event and his point by point justification and similar parallels with Israel and Gaza. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2024.2325804 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2024.2...
- calmbonsai 2y ago
  Ironically, I think the closest historical context is the British military in east Africa (roughly what is now Kenya) to the Kikuyu in the late 1880s.

xmcbxnmc 2y ago

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stogot 2y ago

I know this is a controversial issue. But honest question: what is a ceasefire going to do? Hamas refuses to surrender, so it’s only a few years until another Oct 7, and then it starts again. What other option does Israel have? They’ve been fighting these wars for years and they’ve now decided to continue this one vs waiting for a new one in three years

clydethefrog 2y ago
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- SauciestGNU 2y ago
  Mass suicide
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
bdjsiqoocwk 2y ago
[dead]
jfwuasdfs 2y ago
A cease-fire may buy us time to figure out a long-term solution.
- kojdels 2y ago
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  - selcuka 2y ago
    It's interesting that we don't count Israel as a religious lunatic state.
    - shepherdjerred 2y ago
      Israel's stated goal is not to kill unlike Hamas

thruway516 2y ago

Why was this flagged?

drooby 2y ago
Clearly off-topic for HN. > Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
- thruway516 2y ago
  Really? Change the conflict to a different one and it doesn't seem all that unusual or off topic by hn standards >And they have bullied/co-opted the rest of the world into silence or indifference.
- kbelder 2y ago
  HN often covers major news events, and wars fall into that category. Their impact is wide-ranging and of large import. I don't see an issue with the occasional HN coverage of it. I could see an argument that this conflict might be getting a disproportionate amount of posts, because it seems to have aroused a lot of passion among some of the HN audience. Would Doctors Without Borders condemning Russia in Ukraine warrant a HN post? Don't know, probably not.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    It wasn't the moral condemnation, but their weighing in on a hotly disputed case (along with the fact that they're a highly respected organization with first-hand knowledge of what's been happening on the ground) that makes the post interesting and relevant. Unfortunately the poster botched/distorted the article title, but that's a separate issue.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  Evidence of some interesting new phenomenon Not entirely new, but certainly interesting and relevant in the sense of one of the world's most highly respected organizations weighing in on one of the most flagrant large-scale violation of human rights in our time (that many prefer to pretend to believe isn't happening at all). Clearly on-topic for HN.

calmbonsai 2y ago

Well, I'm pretty certain by any reasonable (UN, AI, HRN, etc.) standard, it became genocide quite some time ago when Israel: 1. Used precision guided weapons in unguided-mode to take out entire buildings including schools and hospitals 2. Used precision guided weapons in guided-mode to take out cars and food supply trucks of the World Central Kitchen workers when the cars were clearly demarcated as UN 3. Blocked I18n (not just UN) food & water aid 4. Precisely demolished water, sewer, and electrical infrastructure 5. Denied PoWs fundamental rights under the UN charter

addicted 2y ago
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- text0404 2y ago
  > 4. I’ve seen absolutely no evidence for this you can do a basic google search to answer your questions. i searched for "israel palestine water access" and these were the first page: "Human Rights Watch accuses Israel of acts of genocide in Gaza over water access" - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c75wqr0k3dyo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c75wqr0k3dyo (same coverage from Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/19/israel-accused-of-act-of-genocide-over-restriction-of-gaza-water-supply-human-rights-watch https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/19/israel-accused...) "Israel using water as weapon of war as Gaza supply plummets by 94%, creating deadly health catastrophe: Oxfam" - https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/israel-using-water-weapon-war-gaza-supply-plummets-94-creating-deadly-health https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/israel-using-water-w... https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2024/12/israel-strikes-yemen-ports-power-stations-retaliation-against-houthis https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2024/12/israel-strikes-... https://www.csis.org/analysis/siege-gazas-water https://www.csis.org/analysis/siege-gazas-water https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/9/1/israel-cuts-water-and-power-as-jenin-siege-worsens https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/9/1/israel-c... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/israel-opt-israel-must-lift-illegal-and-inhumane-blockade-on-gaza-as-power-plant-runs-out-of-fuel/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/israel-opt-is... https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/in-gazas-widening-humanitarian-crisis-water-access-becomes-dire https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/in-gazas-widening-humanit... > 5. Hamas fighters are not fighting in uniform. They do qualify as Prisoners of War. this is not adequate cover for Israel's indiscriminate killing of civilians. the geneva conventions do not work this way. > Israel has blocked aid for short periods of time in certain areas. For the most part, the failure of aid reaching where it needs to go has been a result of Israel being unable to provide security. We’ve seen what happens when Israelis don’t provide security for aid workers. They get looted and killed. no, they've blocked access for long periods of time. this is why there is a famine: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-experts-declare-famine-has-spread-throughout-gaza-strip https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-experts-d... they are also killing aid workers who have cleared their routes with the IDF beforehand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Central_Kitchen_aid_convoy_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Central_Kitchen_aid_conv... https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/09/1154206 https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/09/1154206 > the pro Palestinian sides have absolutely destroyed the opportunity for moderation and negotiation by labeling Israel’s actions as genocide from day 1 yes, because the genocide has been occuring since 1947. i would highly recommend reading the history of this conflict as it started long before Oct 7 2023.

calmbonsai 2y ago

Sadly, there's a reason the "Gaza tourniquet" had to be invented. https://glia.org/pages/the-glia-tourniquet-project https://glia.org/pages/the-glia-tourniquet-project

dzhiurgis 2y ago

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mo7061 2y ago
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grumpycamel 2y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9n77DPJ7AE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9n77DPJ7AE This guy has a very accessible take on the proper United Nations definition of genocide and how it applies to the Gaza and Ukraine war. Gemini summary: >>>> This video discusses the definition of genocide and its application to current events. The speaker argues that many people misuse the term to describe any atrocity, while genocide specifically refers to the intent to eliminate a group of people. The speaker uses the examples of the war in Gaza and the arrest warrant for Vladimir Putin to illustrate this point. They argue that while there are many civilian casualties in Gaza, it's unclear if there's an intent to eliminate the entire Palestinian people. In contrast, Putin's forced deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia aligns more clearly with the definition of genocide. The speaker emphasizes the importance of using the term accurately to avoid diluting its meaning and to properly address serious crimes. <<<<

eNV25 2y ago
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- thenaturalist 2y ago
  So the UN is great if it's against Israel and Bibi Netanyahu and irrelevant if it goes against your own, preconceived opinions? Got it!
clydethefrog 2y ago
Anders Puck Nielsen is a Danish military analyst and naval captain at the Royal Danish Defence College, he is not a human rights lawyer. I will trust the organisations and experts that have studied human rights in deciding if a genocide is occuring.
- Sammi 2y ago
  That's an impossible standard, and by it you should also stop having opinions on this matter.

graymatters 2y ago

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alex1138 2y ago

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lr0 2y ago
SCIAF, Christian Aid, Age International , Trocaire, Plan International, Bond and Cafod, and many other 'charities'[1] (MSF is obviously not a charity, you at least could have opened the link but you clearly do not know what you are talking about) declared what's have been going in Gaza as genocide. Amnesty International made in January a UN call consisted of 250 global charities, organizations and institutions to stop the genocide in Gaza, either you are not actually giving money to charity or you are having a very hard time fining one. [1]: https://www.quaker.org.uk/documents/public-statement-uk-charities-key-step-new-government-must-take-first-100-days-address-gaza-catastrophe https://www.quaker.org.uk/documents/public-statement-uk-char...

aaron695 2y ago

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maeil 2y ago

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thenaturalist 2y ago
Quotes a guy as an example of a sweeping generalization who is massively controversial in his own country, is facing domestic charges and has tens of thousands of citizens protesting against him regularly. Your choice of quotes is indeed not very interesting, but rather shows how little you know about Israel. You should visit some time it's a beautiful and diverse country. I'm sure you'll learn a lot.
- okokhacker 2y ago
  While you’re at it visit the OPT too! It will show you exactly how invested Israel is on diversity.
  - thenaturalist 2y ago
    Happily will do so! I’ll try to answer my following research questions: If Palestinians want a state so badly, why didn’t they accept one in 1948? In the following decades, when Gaza was Egyptian, the West Bank was Jordanian and the Golan heights Syrian, why didn’t their Arab brothers give them their own state? Where were the Palestinians in ‘67 when these Arab leaders decided to attack Israel, got a bloody nose and created the mess we’re in today? Where were the Palestinians in the 90s, when Arafat could have given them their own state with East Jerusalem as their capital? Where were the demonstrations, streets filled with crowds, demanding peace and their own state? My history and just observing current events with my eyes are telling me that instead of making their state a reality as they could have multiple times, Palestinians are weirdly obsessed with the existence of Israel as a whole and streets are only filled with cheering crowds if Israeli hostages or bodies are paraded through them. Meanwhile, Israel has two Supreme Court judges of Arab descent, one of whom sent two Jewish Prime Ministers to prison, the recent head of Israel’s oldest and largest bank was an Israeli Arab, Arab citizens are part of the national soccer team, the police, the medical services, the judiciary, the list goes on and on. Looks like it’s the same in Israel as the rest of the world: If you’re not hellbent on killing your neighbor because you discriminate them based on their creed, looks, whatever, people welcome you to take part in society.

ukblewis 2y ago

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486sx33 2y ago

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lossolo 2y ago
The war could be over to tomorrow if Israel stops illegally occupying Palestinian territory. The consequences for creating illegal settlements should be massive to let the world know that stealing others people land is not acceptable.
- commandlinefan 2y ago
  But isn't it the Palestinian's position that all of Israel is Palestinian territory?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - derelicta 2y ago
    Bingo! It is, because it is.
  - FireBeyond 2y ago
    A lot of people like to point to Palestinians and organizations saying "From the River (Jordan) to the (Red) Sea" as "evidence" of this. Most of those people are unaware that Palestinians and those organizations directly took that saying from Likud, the hard right political party currently in power in Israel - the saying was a literal election campaign of Likud in the 1970s.
    - okokhacker 2y ago
      I don’t think anyone uses a saying to back claims over land. In any case, your comment seems to suggest that Palestinians /could not/ have come up with this phrase, and had to resort to stealing the occupier’s, which is wildly misleading. In any case, the origin of the phrase is ascertain.

sershe 2y ago

I dunno, Gaza (on per-sqkm basis) still looks nothing like Hamburg '43. Until it looks at least like that everywhere, I'd say Israel is being too soft given the historical precedent on dealing with these kinds of movements.

aguaviva 2y ago
I dunno, Gaza (on per-sqkm basis) still looks nothing like Hamburg '43. In fact the numbers of civilians killed are roughly similar (probably 30k for Gaza vs. 40k for Hamburg 43-45) against roughly equal pre-war population size (about 1.5M for each). And the pictures are of course awfully similar as well (depending on where one wishes to zoom in). And Israel's not anywhere near done with Gaza yet. But of course you were just hand-waving, which is why you started off with "I dunno". Until it looks at least like that everywhere, I'd say Israel is being too soft An incredibly crass and nasty thing to say about a largely innocent population being steadily bombed into the ground.
okokhacker 2y ago
On the surface this is just another callous comment but you are making a few dangerous implications here: 1. Gaza is not as bad as Hamburg (for which no proof was provided) 2. Gaza has to be as bad as Hamburg for it to be called a genocide 3. You want Israel to make Gaza look like Hamburg ‘43 4. The historical precedent (without even getting into land occupation) of movements justifies a genocide.

EvgeniyZh 2y ago

Another day, another organization redefines genocide to fit their narrative, doesn't mention hostages held in Gaza and gets manually unflagged by admins. Business as usual.

pas 2y ago
there are many definitions already. what's yours? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions#List_of_definitions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions#List_of_d...
- EvgeniyZh 2y ago
  > almost all international bodies of law officially adjudicate the crime of genocide pursuant to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). > This and other definitions are generally regarded by the majority of genocide scholars to have an "intent to destroy" as a requirement for any act to be labelled genocide This post mentions intent once: > While we don't have legal authority to establish intentionality But anyway somehow > What our medical teams have witnessed ... is consistent with the descriptions ... that genocide is taking place in Gaza and then the title was changed from "Gaza death trap: MSF report exposes Israel’s campaign of total destruction" to "Doctors Without Borders declares the war in Gaza as genocide"
  - shkkmo 2y ago
    > This post mentions intent once Intent is something that will be proved if the any of the war criminals in this conflict (on either side) ever face justice. The relevant authorities have been pretty clear there is adequate evidence of intent to issue arrest warrants. MSF care less about the label, and more about convicinging the international community to force Isreal into a ceasefire so they can do their job and save lives. It is unsurprising that MSF doesn't discuss intent, since it is the practical actions that concern them here, not the motivation behind them.
    - EvgeniyZh 2y ago

tdiff 2y ago

If Israel commits genocide, and US actively supports Israel with weapons, do they imply US is at least supporting genocide in 21 century?