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It’s never been clear to me why this program exists in the first place, other than to put downward pressure on US STEM wages. What am I missing?
by crmd 2y ago
It’s never been clear to me why this program exists in the first place, other than to put downward pressure on US STEM wages. What am I missing?
- creer 2y agoYou are missing that it is used a lot in spite of that process (1) being a major administrative headache for the users, both employees and employers, (2) costly compared to hiring "locals" although that's moderated by perhaps lower salary with not a huge amount of evidence, and (3) rather unpredictable and risky for both employees and employers. You don't see the need but perhaps the users do.
- whatshisface 2y agoHypothetically it exists to allow companies to hire singular overseas experts like von Braun or Einstein that don't have domestic equivalents. It has become totally accepted to lie on the application though and now it is used to hire Java developers.
- mportela 2y agoI believe that's the O-1 visa, not the H-1B.
- whatshisface 2y agoThat's a sign of how accepted it has become to say that you can't find any local workers that know Python when filling out the H1-B forms. The requirement is there but it's normally overlooked. "The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce [...]" https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/immigration/h1b https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/immigration/h1b
- rbanffy 2y agoAt some point it becomes “couldn’t obtain the required talent at the prices the business was willing to pay”.
- strongpigeon 2y agoThat is incorrect. People with exceptional abilities are covered under EB-1 green cards (and O-1 visas). H-1B was created to bring people in specialty occupations requiring a bachelor's degree or equivalent experience. A Java developer definitely meets the bar (with the right degree or experience).
- whatshisface 2y agoIt's impossible to truthfully state on an H1-B form that the US labor market can't provide an experienced Java developer.
- strongpigeon 2y agoThat is correct, but tangential to the original point of extraordinary abilities. But it's also possible to say that one hasn't been able to find a skilled-enough Java developer.
- 15155 2y agoThe Java developers coming over on H-1Bs are often bottom of the barrel.
- risyachka 2y agoTrue, but at the same time immigrants have nothing to lose and everything to gain, thus in many cases they will work harder/longer and as result often be more skilled than an average developer. And in general skilled immigration has many times over been proven to only benefit the country and that java developer you mention.
- returningfory2 2y agoThis piece of misinformation seems to be trotted out every time H-1B is discussed. H-1B is not for "extraordinary ability", the O-1 is. The H-1B is just designed for regular workers in a "specialty occupation". This is how Congress designed it in the Immigration and Nationality Act.
- remarkEon 2y agoYou're not missing anything. Other than that, seemingly, STEM roles are the only industry where the laws of supply and demand do not apply, and a positive supply shock of something does not, for some reason, drive down the price.
- jandrese 2y agoIf a supply shock doesn't drive down the price then it suggests that the supply constraint was larger than than the shock and that the market was being artificially constrained to prevent the prices from rising to meet demand.
- InsideOutSanta 2y agoIt's also possible that the supply itself is what creates more demand. People who move to the US are probably less risk-averse than the average person, and more likely to start new companies, creating more jobs.
- remarkEon 2y agoSo in other words, yes, for whatever reason tech is this special case that doesn't apply anywhere else and supply shocks don't matter. An odd claim, wish there was more evidence for it being true. As in, what is the "artificial constraint" for front end web developers?
- sunshowers 2y agoHave you engaged with the Card vs Borjas literature at all? We learn about the world by studying it, not by simply thinking about it from one's armchair.
- remarkEon 2y agoNo, and after that brief description I definitely won't. You learn about the world by living in it, not by reading about it.
- 2y ago
- renewiltord 2y agoThe program exists to get skilled workers into the US. It has done this well. There are few other programs to get them in and onto a pathway to permanent residence and citizenship. STEM wages don't exist in a vacuum. Increased utility to the US economy is more important than them. The US government rightfully determined that having people like Elon Musk here makes this nation more competitive. Likely the effect was also to increase software engineering compensation but that's harder to tell.
- strongpigeon 2y agoIt's enabling companies to bring highly skilled individuals to work in the USA rather than having them open offices in other countries.
- margorczynski 2y agoThat's how it is marketed to the masses. From what I hear from many US citizens it actually looks quite different in reality.
- dilyevsky 2y agoThe reality is US is a tech powerhouse, many successful companies have been started by former h1b holders and US tech workers are highest paid in the world (even PPP adjusted). What you're hearing is not the reality - it's just vibes.
- carlosjobim 2y agoIf it's about urgently needed skills, then anybody who has a H-1B visa is of course the highest paid worker in his or her company. Right?
- rbanffy 2y agoFor the “highly skilled” there’s the O-1 visa.
- 0x457 2y agoNot really, O-1 is essentially a visa to bring a specific person to the US. While H1B is a wide net (yes, visa given to a specific person, not what I'm saying). o-1 is to bring Albert Einstein and h1b is to bring some physicist that matches criteria. As in, O-1 is person-focused, while H1B is role-focused.
- nirav72 2y ago>h1b is to bring some physicist that matches criteria. those are exceptional cases. The majority of the 65K year h1b visas granted every year are for filling IT related positions. Mostly dev related positions.
- jonny_eh 2y agoGlobal competition exists. If US companies can't hire the best, others will. I hope you don't assume that all the best workers/researchers are born within US borders.
- vouaobrasil 2y agoI don't think countries should hire the best. Pretty good should do. They should foster a greater sense of community within their borders. Now, I'm not against immigration. I myself am an immigrant. But I think there's too much global fluidity and not enough attention paid to taking care of one's own.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago>not enough attention paid to taking care of one's own. Because that's not profitable.
- throwaway48476 2y agoThe best people are in no small part a product of their environment. You can have the best people but with no resources they won't be productive.
- grumple 2y agoDo you think the average H1B or other visa holder in STEM is among “the best”? I’m forced to hire non-American engineers (contractors) because my company is too cheap to pay for and commit to paying American workers full time for a couple of years. There are certainly a ton of qualified Americans who can work for us (fully remote) for not much more money, and their native English skills would make them objectively better at the position. I would even hire juniors straight out of school, but the corporate bs gets in the way.
- s1artibartfast 2y agoYou are mixing up purpose and effect. The purpose is to provide more and cheaper STEM workers. The effect is downward pressure on wages. Phrased differently, the goal is to help industry, not hurt workers. Hurting some workers is an acceptable cost, not the goal. One idea is that having a thriving industrial ecosystem helps those same workers more than the downward pressure.
- InsideOutSanta 2y agoAs somebody who does not live and work in the US, it seems plausible to me that the H1B system helps prevent other countries from obtaining similar talent hubs as Sillicon Valley. A lot of the talent is in the US, which attracts more companies, which attracts more talent, which means it's easier to go to the US and work there and start companies there than to do it anywhere else.
- rbanffy 2y agoThere’s also the easier financing, but yes - I’m sure the outcome is dominated by the network effect of having denser talent. That’s one of the reasons Silicon Valley is so hard to replicate elsewhere.
- JackYoustra 2y agoit's not really the goal, but there are many cases of people denied visas going back and having huge success
- tssva 2y agoIf the purpose is cheaper STEM workers than downward pressure on wages is a goal and not just an effect.
- s1artibartfast 2y agoThe goal isnt to hurt workers for its own sake. The goal is to help industry. If harm was the goal, something like a STEM worker tax or cutting R&D tax incentives would be easier.
- HDThoreaun 2y agoThe US owes much of its success to its ability to poach talent from other countries. By letting all the people who would start competing firms move to the US instead international competition is reduced and the products built in the US are better.
- BeetleB 2y agoSoftware is one of the few STEM fields where one can get a fantastic job with just a Bachelor's. In most other engineering fields, a MS gives you a significant boost, and a PhD may do so as well. The reality is that in most of those fields, few Americans get an MS/PhD. Go to a typical engineering department and you'll often see the majority of advanced degree students are foreigners. So it's a question of: Do we want to continue to train foreigners, only to not have them contribute to the US economy? If you move out to the pure sciences, you pretty much need a PhD to get a good career. Once again, a big chunk, if not the majority, are foreigners. Look around at the highly skilled folks you see who are not of US origin, and you'll find most of them are in the US due to the H1-B program (only a tiny percentage come via other programs like the O visa). Yes, H1-B is often abused, but this is the reason it exists. It's a lot harder to get an H1B visa and then permanent residency if your degree is in the humanities, for example.
- memtet 2y agoOoh yes, let's address next how US top universities are all profit machines incentivized to take as many foreigners as possible, driving up the tuition they can charge so US citizens can't afford to get degrees. Let's do talk about how if you get a part time job to be able to pay for college then they yank your financial aid.
- rbanffy 2y agoWhy taking in foreign students raises the cost of tuition? Aren’t they paying full price for it?
- BeetleB 2y agoWhile foreigners definitely are a cash cow, I think you'll find in STEM fields most foreign PhD students are not paying tuition, but are instead funded by US grants. As for the cost of tuition, there are many, many reasons, and I suspect if you did a PCA, you'll find "raising tuition to milk foreigners" to be of minimal impact. In my state, for example, a local university publicized their finances going back decades, and the increase in tuition has been mirrored by a drop in state support per student. Overall the university is not making more money per student than they were 30 years ago - the only thing that changed is the entity making the payments.
- breadwinner 2y agoUS tech exports in 2018 was $338 billion. Tech is our biggest export by far. Think of the US tech industry as a siphon that sucks in wealth from foreign countries. Would you want to make that siphon bigger or smaller? If you want to make that siphon bigger — and more competitive — how would you do it? By limiting the people that can work in tech to whoever companies can hire locally, or by bringing in the smartest people from around the world? Read more: https://mckoder.medium.com/does-america-need-immigration-781d30ee43e4 https://mckoder.medium.com/does-america-need-immigration-781...
- PessimalDecimal 2y agoDoes "The US" siphon that money off? Or Meta, Google, Amazon, Microsoft, etc. siphon that money off? And where and to whom does it go from there? The major benefit of reducing or eliminating the H1B visa program is that those companies can continue to do well, and Americans can do well along with them.
- strongpigeon 2y agoRestricting or eliminating the H1B visas will cause these companies to hire more in oversea offices. Consulting companies however are a whole other deal.
- tartoran 2y agoWhy aren't they doing that now though?
- dilyevsky 2y agoBecause the talent is already here or will be here (on h1b/o1). It's common complaint I hear from people doing offshore consultancies type of businesses that their best workers leave for US $$$ paycheck.
- strongpigeon 2y agoThey are to an extent.
- whereismyacc 2y agoyou can grow the sector. there's not a fixed supply of jobs. getting more talented people into your economy will likely just lead to more companies, more agglomeration effects etc. it's good.
- idontwantthis 2y agoI think you should ask why any feature of our immigration system exists. Each way is cruel, byzantine and expensive for no discernible benefit to anyone except the directors of those programs.
- rbanffy 2y agoIt’s also designed to attract talent from other countries. You didn’t have to invest in their education, so that part comes for free.
- sunshowers 2y agoEducation. Learning. Expertise. As Asimov pointed out, "[t]here is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been." American culture is profoundly anti-intellectual. Every Dunning-Kruger rando thinks they have something valuable to contribute to every discussion.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago>American culture is profoundly anti-intellectual. Then why are US tech companies the most successful?
- sunshowers 2y agoMostly because of the foreigners, and the small portion of Americans that are pro-intellectual.
- Cumpiler69 2y agoEU also has a lot of immigrants as well, and also an even bigger culture of education and intellectualism. Why then don't they have more successful tech companies? I think you're omitting the giant impact of the FED, wall street, power of the USD world reserve currency and the VC investor incentives of risking billions on ideas that may or may not be profitable, with the low risk for investors if their investments don't pan out. All stuff that doesn't exist outside the US.
- sunshowers 2y agoIt's all downstream of the US's incredible geopolitical luck after World War 2. The latest Gallup polling suggests anti-vax sentiment is at an all-time high. In no other comparable country on earth do 45% of people say vaccines shouldn't be mandatory. And it's not the foreigners on visas who are contributing to anti-vax sentiment.
- eweise 2y agoThat's exactly the reason. I don't remember working with any H-1B visa people in the 90s then the dotcom boom happened and demand soared. A couple years later I started working with H-1B engineers and my salary flatlined for over decade since.
- outworlder 2y agoThe program exists to brain drain other countries of talent. It's very successful at that.
- bdangubic 2y ago65k or 80k or say even 250k GLOBALLY per year is going to “brain drain” 8+ billion Global population? Yup, you got it, that’s what US is doing…
- 0x457 2y agoWhat make you think that majority of that 8 billion population is worth to drain?
- bdangubic 2y agonothing at all :)
- 0x457 2y agoI'm not saying it's good or bad at brain drain, I'm just saying without knowing how many people overseas are worth "draining" that's not an argument. The program might have been designed for this, sold as this, but it's definitely not used for that anymore. H1B was created in 1990, that's when Russia (and ex-USSR in general) had a lot of idle brains that wouldn't mind moving to the US. Today isn't 1990 tho.
- bdangubic 2y agomy apologies, I was just being sarcastic in my initial comment… the brain draining other countries by taking in 65k or whatever yearly is … funny for the lack of worse but respectable word :)
- nirav72 2y agoBringing over 10K java developers a year is going to brain drain other countries of java developers?
- hector_vasquez 2y agoPut simply: It is in the national interest to have the world's most talented technologists here. It is yet more in the national interest that they work here, for us, and not for our enemies. One of the best ways we can compete with China is to attract their best and brightest with our free society and high wages.
- dboreham 2y agoImagine developing the atomic bomb with just US born scientists.
- JackYoustra 2y agoTech exists in a globally competitive market: the companies will exist where the skilled workers are, and the tax benefits will occur there. The US's large immigration rate is a precondition for maintaining its tech dominance and all of the benefits thereof.