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I find it pretty cool how the spread of Christianity can be tracked so finely that a 50 update in earliest arrival time is exciting! I started listening to a p
by bjackman 2y ago
I find it pretty cool how the spread of Christianity can be tracked so finely that a 50 update in earliest arrival time is exciting!
I started listening to a podcast called "the history of the early church" to learn a bit more about that but unfortunately I think the target audience was Christians interested in theology rather than nerds interested in history. Recommendations for books etc are welcome!
- MontagFTB 2y agoI’d recommend “2,000 Years of Christ's Power” by Nick Needham. I am not sure where it falls on your theology/history spectrum but it has some of both. I enjoyed the audiobook of Volume 1 immensely. For me it did a great job describing the context in which the church began, the major figures throughout the early church, and the spread, schisms, and events that helped shape the church in its formative years.
- kcsaba2 2y agoThe Triumph of Christianity: How the Jesus Movement Became the World's Largest Religion - Rodney Stark
- graemep 2y agoI also like Stark's God's Battalions, which is a nice debunking of the conventional view of the crusades.
- wolfhelius 2y agoI had a long drive where I listened to The Great Courses, which had a set on early Christianity. I think the professor was from Notre Dame. The early church was wrestling with polytheism (is the OT god seemed really different from the NT god) and it eventually had to get resolved by the Council at Nicaea at Constantine's behest.
- dragonwriter 2y agoNote that to non-Christian monotheists, the Christian resolution of that problem is often seen as polytheism with circumlocution.
- mensetmanusman 2y agoThis arises from a confusion of multiplication 1x1x1 with addition 1+1+1 in the abstraction of facets of truth.
- sorokod 2y agoA neat analogy but aren't those 1s actually distinct from each other in your religion?
- AlgorithmicTime 2y ago[dead]
- mensetmanusman 2y agoIs there more than one way to reference the same truth?
- sorokod 2y agoMaybe, does the Trimurti represent that same truth? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimurti https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimurti
- papandada 2y agoI've never heard anyone say the early church wrestled with polytheism. Maybe that's my bias nestled in Christian circles of not using that word, in favour of something more like "the nature of the triune Godhead", etc.
- kibwen 2y agoEven today plenty of Christian sects refuse to recognize the council of Nicaea's interpretation of the trinity, including the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism (Whether or not any of these flirt with polytheism is up for debate.) Meanwhile, the Catholic church's own profusion of saints whom you are supposed to beseech for specific blessings is dangerously close to a polytheistic practice in its own right.
- 3pt14159 2y ago> is dangerously close to a polytheistic practice in its own right. I don't really think so. We're supposed to pray with Mary to God and everyone recognizes that all of creation came through Christ, not Mary or any other saint.
- JackFr 2y agoAs Mary asked Jesus to perform the miracle at the wedding at Cana, for the said of her friend, we too are called to pray to ask Mary to intercede for us for our intentions.
- kibwen 2y agoYes, with "saint" I wasn't even trying to invoke a discussion involving Mary at all, because in practice she's so far above the saints that to equate them feels like heresy (and might literally be heresy in some contexts; hyperdulia vs. dulia and all). In practice the absolute adulation of Mary is such that she nearly feels like the fourth member of the trinity.
- mistrial9 2y agothis seems like a sideways retelling of the "Gospels of Thomas" stories.. this is a nuanced topic and shrouded by history.. Suffice it to say that intellectuals and pious people knew very well the cults of Apollo, astrology of High Priests, nature worship, Egyptian deism, goddess worship, and pantheonism while the Christian scriptures were solidifying as a social blueprint.
- alskdj21 2y agoYou might enjoy Let's Talk Religion[0] and ReligionForBreakfast[1]. Both have variety of topics not solely focused on Christianity. [0] https://www.youtube.com/@LetsTalkReligion https://www.youtube.com/@LetsTalkReligion [1] https://www.youtube.com/@ReligionForBreakfast https://www.youtube.com/@ReligionForBreakfast
- bjackman 2y agoOh yeah I like ReligionForBreakfast!
- Hilift 2y agoI think the more interesting developments occurred after the fall of the western Roman empire. The eastern empire (Constantinople) had frequent arguments and disputes with the west over nearly everything, including Christianity. The eastern Orthodox church refers to itself as the "Catholic Church" in internal documents. After the west fell in 476, they continued to present themselves as "the" Catholic church, which was changed forever in 1200 when the largest Christian city in the world (Constantinople) was destroyed. The destruction took two years, and most of the writings, art and treasure of the richest city in the world was either destroyed, stolen, or lost.
- ithkuil 2y agoIn fact the very word catholic derives from the Greek words kata and holos
- xdennis 2y agoAdditionally, it's part of the credo: > [We believe] in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church." In Latin: > Et unam sanctam catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Marks_of_the_Church https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Marks_of_the_Church Catholic just means universal.
- kamikazeturtles 2y agoDid the fact that Christians from Western Europe looted Constantinople in 1200 play a role in the Eastern Roman Empire's decision to stop identifying themselves as part of the Catholic Church, or were there already deep theological and political divides?
- throaway2501 2y agoCatholic means universal, so both present themselves as the original and true church, with the head either in Rome or Constantinople/Pentarchy. The actual break of communion comes from 1054 but really began much earlier.
- strogonoff 2y agoIf you want a non-religious take on the history of Abrahamic religions, a recent episode 393 of the podcast by Sam Harriss, where he interviews historian Simon Sebag Montefiore, should be an interesting listen.
- foobarian 2y agoSpeaking of history podcasts, I've gone through Mike Duncan's Rome and Revolutions, the Fall of Civilizations, Dan Carlin's Hardcore Histories... any suggestions for more like this? I noticed there is a Byzantium history series that seemed interesting.
- anonymousDan 2y agoThe rest is history is pretty good.
- HowardStark 2y agoThought pointedly not a podcast, the YouTube channel Historia Civilis was my go to thing to fall asleep to for a while. The simple animation style and depth I found very soothing.
- rpicard 2y agoHistory on Fire is another great one. He’s especially interested in military / martial arts but it has a bit of everything.
- loudmax 2y agoThe History of English podcast is worth a listen. It's about the development of the English language, so it covers a lot of history and prehistory, and also linguistics. The presenter Kevin Stroud has a deep passion for the subject matter. Unfortunately, he also has a tendency to repeat himself and over-explain simple examples so the effect can be somewhat soporific.
- JackFr 2y agoTwelve Byzantine Rulers https://12byzantinerulers.com/ https://12byzantinerulers.com/
- ecshafer 2y agoAssuming you want more Long form, narrative style historical podcasts. History of the Germans, The French History Podcast, and The History of England are all very good in depth podcasts. I also enjoy the History of The Crusades, which is good, narrative and similar to Revolutions following various crusades.
- hobs 2y agoMy favorite find in the last few months is the youtube channel "esoterica" - here's his video on the origins of yaweh as a storm god https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdKst8zeh-U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdKst8zeh-U He recommends books and primary sources for every episode and they vary from interesting more pubscience type stuff to incredibly expensive and deep academic sources out of print. The gentleman who runs it is very obviously jewish in practice but only uses that to inform his historical context instead of override it, its very refreshing as someone who is an atheist.
- loudmax 2y agoThe Centre Place youtube channel has some pretty good lectures, including some very good lectures on Judaism and early Christianity: https://www.youtube.com/@centre-place/playlists https://www.youtube.com/@centre-place/playlists The videos are presented by a pastor of the Community of Christ church in Toronto, but they're from a historical rather than religious perspective.
- janjongboom 2y agoSeconding this - absolutely terrific content.
- NemoNobody 2y agoI'd be very careful what you let others tell you about Early Christianity - almost exclusively they will explain to you how whatever belief they have now came out of it and compare the two and determine today we have truth... Early was earlier tho - the people that twist our recent revelations about the content of the testaments to support the perverted teaching today are literally twisting the closest text in existence to Jesus himself, to "explain" (pervert) a statement Jesus says in the Gospel of Thomas - a text predating all Gospels, may actually be perverting words truly spoke by Jesus, which is "leading astray" the truth that has come out from the millenia - as he said it would... Not one sentence of this have I heard someone speak or have I read on someone's page.
- zapperdulchen 2y agoI am not sure what do you mean by your hint. Stating that the Gospel of Thomas predates all other Gospels is not a view that is shared by many scientists. One source of many: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gospel_of_Thomas https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gospel_of_Thoma...
- NemoNobody 2y agoWell, it actually is commonly accepted either as the "Q Text" - or as possibly the "Q" text. The "Q" text is the single document long speculated to be the primary source for the 4 Gospels in the Bible, and that was before we had the Gospel of Thomas as we do now - nothing at all to do with a conspiracy theory that shares the letter. Anyways, I've also read the Gospel of Thomas - it most certainly predates the other Gospels. If it doesn't, the others have been so edited and changed over time that they've been rendered more likely to be a copy than an original work. It's also fantastic and Jesus himself says things the Church doesn't want you to believe - hence why a book comprised exclusively of the sayings of Jesus Christ (many of which are in the other Gospels) isn't in the Bible, bc THAT Jesus preached a different Christianity than the one we have. Weird... It's one of my favorite texts in general. Super easy read... perhaps think for yourself? I mean fr, scientist made up dark matter and dark energy bc by their own realization, their maths didn't work - so they invent an invisible thing to make their maths work and it now turns out, the maths did work, if the universe was simply older than they accounted - they obviously didn't consider that or I would kno all about how embarrassingly stupid they have been to avoid looking somewhere they have "decided" the answer already. They just pulled it out their ass - it's in textbooks, I doubt it exists at all but the people with papers on it will keep on as "a theory" until they die, solely out of pride. That's just my one example of today. You as capable as almost every other person - let's discuss when you've read it.
- cogman10 2y agoData over dogma is a pretty good podcast about Christianity and Judaism. It's mostly about taking Bible stories and putting them into their historic context with the best evidence we have. It's not about converting, just covering the history.
- xwkd 2y agoProduced by a Mormon whose dissertation was supervised by an atheist Professor of the Hebrew Bible and Ancient Religion. This may be a data point in favor of the trustworthiness of the podcast, or it may be an argument against, depending on your own personal point of view.
- stvltvs 2y agoAs long as the approach is rigorous scholarship in good faith (is it?), it shouldn't matter too much.
- o11c 2y agoI can't speak for the particular material referenced, but ... good faith is a lot to ask for in religious meta-literature. So often I see arguments based on the following: * Start by assuming all the weird stuff didn't actually happen. We all know that fiction is stranger than truth. * Next, assume it's impossible to foretell the future (in particular, "people who hate each other will start a war" can obviously only have been written after the fact), so clearly the author lied about the date they wrote it. Also, assume that nobody ever updated the grammar (due to linguistic drift) while copying it, and that the oldest surviving copy. * Finally, assume that all previous translations were made by utter imbeciles and reject the wording they used, even if that means picking words that mean something completely unrelated to the original. You can always just assume that the words were a typo or something, and not a blatant reference to other books on the same topic. The most basic sign of rigorous scholarship is saying "well, maybe" a lot, with just an occasional "but definitely not that".
- NemoNobody 2y ago
- dddddaviddddd 2y agoThe “Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean” podcast is excellent. It’s mostly cut-up university lectures by the author, who teaches at York University in Toronto. https://www.philipharland.com/Blog/religions-of-the-ancient-mediterannean-podcast-collection-page/ https://www.philipharland.com/Blog/religions-of-the-ancient-...
- oldmanhorton 2y agoSomeone already said The Rest is History, but one of the presenters of that podcast Tom Holland (not the actor) has also written extensively about the history of the catholic church in Millennium and Dominion. Highly recommended.
- bigstrat2003 2y agoSecond the recommendation on Millennium, just note that for some stupid reason the US publisher decided to retitle the book "The Forge of Christendom". So if you're in the US you won't find it under its real title.
- graemep 2y agoNot read Millennium, but Dominion is brilliant. its not just the history of the church, it explains how the West came to be what it is and the influence of Christianity. It is also a useful corrective to the Western tendency to see its values and attitudes as universal, even where they are a product of a particular history and culture.
- wslh 2y agoI think one of the oldest historical mentions of Jesus is by Josephus [1][2]. There is, however, scholarly discussion about whether parts of his references to Jesus were altered by later Christian scribes [3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus [3] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=josephus+jesus+alterations&btnG= https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=jose...
- markeroon 2y agoThis blew my mind when I first learned of it
- mensetmanusman 2y agoThe Didache predates Josephus.
- wslh 2y agoI understand that the Didache doesn't mention Jesus itself.
- abrenuntio 2y agoRead it here: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm (E.g. when discussing the Eucharist.)
- ImJamal 2y agoThe traditional view held by Christians is that the Gospel of Matthew was written within 10 years of Jesus' death. Modern scholars (often atheists) do not believe it though.
- karencarits 2y agoDo you have a source for this? I've never heard anyone claim that they written so early. For Catholics at least, I think it's a point that the Church and some Tradition are older than the Gospels, i.e. that the Gospels are written by the Church, for the Church (not the other way around)
- throw0101c 2y ago> Recommendations for books etc are welcome! See perhaps the references / (printed) sources at: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
- Almondsetat 2y agoI mean, wouldn't you find it strange if historians from the year 4000 believed the sexual revolution of 1968 happened in 2018? Quite a discrepancy "only" 50 years
- alsetmusic 2y agoI've been reading a lot about the early church for about a year and really enjoying it. I'm an atheist but I'm also a history nerd so it's been truly fascinating. Here are some that I've enjoyed: - The Origin of Satan by Elaine Pagels; I read this one so casually that I don't have a good summary due to poor memory. - The Passover Plot by Hugh J Schonfield; author contends that Jesus believed that he was the prophesied Messiah and engineered his arrest and crucifixion out of sheer genius and clever actions. Fantastic read. - Jesus the Jew by Géza Vermes; author sees Jesus as a sincere apocalyptic preacher who believed he was the Messiah. - From Jesus to Christ by Paula Fredriksen; author looks at how Jesus went from the Jewish Messiah to the head of a major religion. - Becoming God by Bart Ehrman (you can find him doing interesting interviews or debates on YouTube); same as the one directly above. - The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty; author contends that Jesus was not a historical figure, but rather another heavenly figure understood to have been crucified in the firmament between heaven and earth. I'm really impressed by the argument so far. I'm not quite finished with this one.
- mistrial9 2y agoElaine Pagels is the one who got publication credit for the lost Gospels of Thomas.. that was discussed across the globe in literate circles. That book you mention by her is new to me (1995). The Origin of Satan: How Christians Demonized Jews, Pagans, and Heretics. New York: Vintage Books. ISBN 978-0-679-40140-7
- mistrial9 2y agoactually Elaine Pagels is currently writing a book called Miracles and Wonder: The Historical Mystery of Jesus (Hardcover) due April 2025
- dmonitor 2y ago> The Passover Plot by Hugh J Schonfield; author contends that Jesus believed that he was the prophesied Messiah and engineered his arrest and crucifixion out of sheer genius and clever actions. Fantastic read. Orchestrating the destruction of the Jewish temple (and thus most Jewish religious practices) at the hands of the Roman Empire after his own death would have been quite the feat
- sporc 2y agoA lecture series by The Teaching Company called "The New Testament" taught by Bart Ehrman is an enjoyable academic introduction to the history of Early Christianity. I also recommend another lecture series called "From Jesus to Christianity" by The Modern Scholar taught by Thomas F. Madden.
- rkuykendall-com 2y agoI know it's been a long time, but alongside the horsemen of atheism and reading the actual bible, The Teaching Company is where I got so much of my education.
- atombender 2y agoThe excellent podcast The Rest is History has a vaguely connected series of episodes on the Roman Empire and its fall that includes a lot of discussion about the evolution of Christianity. The newest cycle, "Warlords of the West" (3 episodes on the emergence of the Frankish kingdom following the fall of the Roman Empire, a fascinating period not often talked about) and "Charlemagne" (3-part episode just on Charlemagne, who did more than any other Medieval figure ensured the spread of Christianity) have excellent about the political and religious forces that spread Christianity through Europe.
- iamthejuan 2y agoTry The great controversy between Christ and satan.