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The US was never built to produce a cohesive nation on any level outside of commerce and federal military. This is particularly visible today in terms of educat

The US was never built to produce a cohesive nation on any level outside of commerce and federal military. This is particularly visible today in terms of education. There's an attitude here of "I'm gonna do the best for my family; fuck all other people". Such a culture isn't going to be globally competitive. The money machines have dried up and there's no obvious frontier remaining....

sarchertech 2y ago
> "I'm gonna do the best for my family; fuck all other people" If I was going to rank countries best described by this statement the US would come in very close to the bottom.
- Novosell 2y ago
  As in you think the US is actually very collectivist or as in you think the US doesn't care about families at all, only individuals?
  - nemo44x 2y ago
    Americans are extremely generous and charitable by many metrics like this. [1] Not to mention soft generosity like tipping culture. [1] https://www.axios.com/2022/03/09/america-charitable-giving-stats-ukraine https://www.axios.com/2022/03/09/america-charitable-giving-s...
    - taosx 2y ago
      Found this but the ranking is from 2016. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_charitable_donation_as_percentage_of_GDP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_charitabl...
      - csomar 2y ago
        That's a horrible metric since charity is used as a tax dodging mechanism in the US, while other countries (non OECD ones) do not have this mechanism.
        nradov 2y ago
        It's bizarre to describe charitable donations as tax dodging. Every country should make such donations tax deductible.
        Ekaros 2y ago
        Why? Wouldn't truly generous people even donate clothes from their backs. And sell their homes to help others? They would not need tax deduction for those either.
        nemo44x 2y ago
        You will spend less money just paying taxes than donating money are writing off your top end. For instance if I have $100 and the government wants 40% of it then I could give them $40. Or I could donate, lets say $15 and now I owe 40% on $85 which is $34. Add the $15 I donated and it's $49. Plus there are limits on how much you can deduct and it's less for assets than for cash. Lastly we have a thing called Alternitive Minimum Tax what is a catchall for anyone that thinks they can pay less by adjusting their income down. You need to calculate both taxes and you pay the higher one.
    - yongjik 2y ago
      > Not to mention soft generosity like tipping culture. barfs
    - 1over137 2y ago
      Is their tipping really generosity or just social coercion?
      - nemo44x 2y ago
        Probably both. But it’s literally built into the social fabric. Like the politeness of Americans when it comes to well wishing.
    - PNewling 2y ago
      This is an interesting article (list-icle? It is pretty short and aggregate list like). It is from 2022 and mainly focuses on pandemic times, so I'd be curious to see what these trends look like compared to pre/post pandemic. I'm sure I could do more digging and find the answers to this, but still I appreciate this, it is interesting. One thing I think I would push back on though is the remark of 'soft generosity like tipping culture' which isn't mentioned at all in the list. I also would not consider US tipping culture generosity, but more of a social contract/obligation. Someone that does not tip anywhere, except for where they received great service, isn't normally seen as a non-generous person, they're seen as not abiding by the social contract that you have to tip.
      - nemo44x 2y ago
        You don’t have to tip. Nothing will happen to you if you don’t. Some people don’t or tip very little. Many tip well above expectations. Most people don’t mind the practice. But it’s not just tipping at a restaurant. We tip our garbage men, helpers, mailmen, doormen, maids, nanny’s, etc at Christmas. You don’t have to do this. But many of us do because we are raised to be generous if we are fortunate enough to be.
        Aeolun 2y ago
        Yeah, generous like “I’ll pay you if I want to” instead of generous like “I pay you because you work for me”
    - Aeolun 2y ago
      Have you ever been outside the US? Yes, there’s definitely a lot of nice people there (most, even), but there’s also a whole bunch more that make it feel unsafe to just walk the streets.
    - GJim 2y ago
      > Americans are extremely generous A country with one of the highest income inequalities in the western world! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_inequality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_in... Being generous is voting for healthcare and social welfare programmes for all, regardless of income. Also, the charitable giving figures you quote are skewed as the US offers tax breaks to donate to "charities" which can be financially beneficial to the giver (charity oversight in the USA is notoriously lax). > Not to mention soft generosity like tipping culture. Don't take the piss!
      - nemo44x 2y ago
        > Being generous is voting for healthcare and social welfare programmes for all, regardless of income. There are various methods of rationing healthcare. I'm not sure choosing the government to arbitrate rationing is any more "generous". Regardless, American's that can't afford to subsidize their own healthcare (poor, disabled, child, elderly, etc) have many options from the government to assist them such as Medicare, Medicaid, a variety of state programs, etc. I also wouldn't use the NHS as any model of egalitarian or generosity in healthcare as any Brit that can afford it has private insurance on top of it since the NHS leaves a lot to be desired. > Also, the charitable giving figures you quote are skewed as the US offers tax breaks to donate to "charities" which can be financially beneficial to the giver (charity oversight in the USA is notoriously lax). You can deduct from your taxable burden certain charitable donations, but it isn't anywhere near a complete write-off. You'd save considerably more by just paying taxes instead of giving to charity. And this is a great policy as it allows citizens to fund things that would otherwise be well out of scope of government. > Don't take the piss! Waitstaff is what many people think of in this context. But waitstaff in the USA earns considerably more than in the UK or EU due to the generosity of tipping culture. I've never met a waiter that wanted a higher hourly wage to replace their tips as they can and do make a lot of money with tips. But Americans tip far more than waiters. During Christmas we give tips to our garbage collectors, mail carriers, extra to maids and other helpers, tip to teachers and school staff, doormen if you live in an apartment with them. People give greatly to organizations they support and to their churches. I've spent a lot of time in the UK and although a lovely place in many regards, I'm not sure there's a more stingy, tight culture anywhere else on Earth. Everything is precise and transactional and anything regarding helping someone is measured and on the lean side. In large part it's because Brits are very poor compared to Americans but it's also a culture thing too.
jfengel 2y ago
The US used to be globally competitive. I don't know what changed. I do get the strong impression that there was a period of perhaps a century or so, from the mid 19th through late 20th, where we were at least a little less likely to be fighting against each other. Those were rather prosperous times. Since then we've still produced some very big things, but it seems less widely beneficial. And we do seem increasingly to be at each other's throats. I don't know if they're related.
- sapphicsnail 2y ago
  The American Civil War was in the 1860s and there's been some pretty incredible periods of unrest between now and then. We are reaching some historic levels of wealth inequality though.
- OhioMan2943 2y ago
  Less social cohesion and less meritocracy
nradov 2y ago
That's a bizarre claim considering that the US economy is currently outperforming most other developed countries.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- PittleyDunkin 2y ago
  When did I mention the economy?
  - pedrosorio 2y ago
    > Such a culture isn't going to be globally competitive Globally competitive in what sense, then?
- ethanwillis 2y ago
  Well, the account was made 46 days ago. People can talk about rules of the site and so on. But, we live in a different world now than when the rules were made. Hybrid warfare and online interactions are the easiest way for US adversaries to spread FUD and sow dissent.
zxcvbnm69 2y ago
[dead]
nemo44x 2y ago
It’s literally the world’s oldest existing democracy and has the world’s most dynamic economy and diverse population and isn’t at civil war. What isn’t cohesive or globally competitive about that? Americans are also among the most generous and charitable people according to a number of easily Googleable metrics. What is “fuck other people” about that? Nowhere is perfect and America is far from it but at least 25% of the world (and likely higher) would immediately move there if they could.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Novosell 2y ago
  It's only the worlds oldest democracy if you don't consider black people and women to be people.
  - marky1991 2y ago
    What does that have to do with the us being a democracy? You don't have to have universal suffrage to be a democracy.
    - mr_toad 2y ago
      The people who don’t get to vote might disagree. In any case, the UK parliament has existed since 1705, which predates the American revolution.
    - Novosell 2y ago
      I disagree? As does the word democracy I'd say.
      - marky1991 2y ago
        By that logic, I don't think a democracy has ever existed. No country anywhere has or as far as I know, has ever had, true universal suffrage. Do you have an example of a democracy under your definition?
nepthar 2y ago
Sources?
jph00 2y ago
That doesn't really explain why there's a particularly notable drop in older adults after 2017, does it?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

sarchertech 2y ago

> "I'm gonna do the best for my family; fuck all other people" If I was going to rank countries best described by this statement the US would come in very close to the bottom.

Novosell 2y ago
As in you think the US is actually very collectivist or as in you think the US doesn't care about families at all, only individuals?
- nemo44x 2y ago
  Americans are extremely generous and charitable by many metrics like this. [1] Not to mention soft generosity like tipping culture. [1] https://www.axios.com/2022/03/09/america-charitable-giving-stats-ukraine https://www.axios.com/2022/03/09/america-charitable-giving-s...
  - taosx 2y ago
    Found this but the ranking is from 2016. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_charitable_donation_as_percentage_of_GDP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_charitabl...
    - csomar 2y ago
      That's a horrible metric since charity is used as a tax dodging mechanism in the US, while other countries (non OECD ones) do not have this mechanism.
      - nradov 2y ago
        It's bizarre to describe charitable donations as tax dodging. Every country should make such donations tax deductible.
        Ekaros 2y ago
        Why? Wouldn't truly generous people even donate clothes from their backs. And sell their homes to help others? They would not need tax deduction for those either.
      - nemo44x 2y ago
        You will spend less money just paying taxes than donating money are writing off your top end. For instance if I have $100 and the government wants 40% of it then I could give them $40. Or I could donate, lets say $15 and now I owe 40% on $85 which is $34. Add the $15 I donated and it's $49. Plus there are limits on how much you can deduct and it's less for assets than for cash. Lastly we have a thing called Alternitive Minimum Tax what is a catchall for anyone that thinks they can pay less by adjusting their income down. You need to calculate both taxes and you pay the higher one.
  - yongjik 2y ago
    > Not to mention soft generosity like tipping culture. barfs
  - 1over137 2y ago
    Is their tipping really generosity or just social coercion?
    - nemo44x 2y ago
      Probably both. But it’s literally built into the social fabric. Like the politeness of Americans when it comes to well wishing.
  - PNewling 2y ago
    This is an interesting article (list-icle? It is pretty short and aggregate list like). It is from 2022 and mainly focuses on pandemic times, so I'd be curious to see what these trends look like compared to pre/post pandemic. I'm sure I could do more digging and find the answers to this, but still I appreciate this, it is interesting. One thing I think I would push back on though is the remark of 'soft generosity like tipping culture' which isn't mentioned at all in the list. I also would not consider US tipping culture generosity, but more of a social contract/obligation. Someone that does not tip anywhere, except for where they received great service, isn't normally seen as a non-generous person, they're seen as not abiding by the social contract that you have to tip.
    - nemo44x 2y ago
      You don’t have to tip. Nothing will happen to you if you don’t. Some people don’t or tip very little. Many tip well above expectations. Most people don’t mind the practice. But it’s not just tipping at a restaurant. We tip our garbage men, helpers, mailmen, doormen, maids, nanny’s, etc at Christmas. You don’t have to do this. But many of us do because we are raised to be generous if we are fortunate enough to be.
      - Aeolun 2y ago
        Yeah, generous like “I’ll pay you if I want to” instead of generous like “I pay you because you work for me”
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    Have you ever been outside the US? Yes, there’s definitely a lot of nice people there (most, even), but there’s also a whole bunch more that make it feel unsafe to just walk the streets.
  - GJim 2y ago
    > Americans are extremely generous A country with one of the highest income inequalities in the western world! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_inequality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_in... Being generous is voting for healthcare and social welfare programmes for all, regardless of income. Also, the charitable giving figures you quote are skewed as the US offers tax breaks to donate to "charities" which can be financially beneficial to the giver (charity oversight in the USA is notoriously lax). > Not to mention soft generosity like tipping culture. Don't take the piss!
    - nemo44x 2y ago
      > Being generous is voting for healthcare and social welfare programmes for all, regardless of income. There are various methods of rationing healthcare. I'm not sure choosing the government to arbitrate rationing is any more "generous". Regardless, American's that can't afford to subsidize their own healthcare (poor, disabled, child, elderly, etc) have many options from the government to assist them such as Medicare, Medicaid, a variety of state programs, etc. I also wouldn't use the NHS as any model of egalitarian or generosity in healthcare as any Brit that can afford it has private insurance on top of it since the NHS leaves a lot to be desired. > Also, the charitable giving figures you quote are skewed as the US offers tax breaks to donate to "charities" which can be financially beneficial to the giver (charity oversight in the USA is notoriously lax). You can deduct from your taxable burden certain charitable donations, but it isn't anywhere near a complete write-off. You'd save considerably more by just paying taxes instead of giving to charity. And this is a great policy as it allows citizens to fund things that would otherwise be well out of scope of government. > Don't take the piss! Waitstaff is what many people think of in this context. But waitstaff in the USA earns considerably more than in the UK or EU due to the generosity of tipping culture. I've never met a waiter that wanted a higher hourly wage to replace their tips as they can and do make a lot of money with tips. But Americans tip far more than waiters. During Christmas we give tips to our garbage collectors, mail carriers, extra to maids and other helpers, tip to teachers and school staff, doormen if you live in an apartment with them. People give greatly to organizations they support and to their churches. I've spent a lot of time in the UK and although a lovely place in many regards, I'm not sure there's a more stingy, tight culture anywhere else on Earth. Everything is precise and transactional and anything regarding helping someone is measured and on the lean side. In large part it's because Brits are very poor compared to Americans but it's also a culture thing too.

jfengel 2y ago

The US used to be globally competitive. I don't know what changed. I do get the strong impression that there was a period of perhaps a century or so, from the mid 19th through late 20th, where we were at least a little less likely to be fighting against each other. Those were rather prosperous times. Since then we've still produced some very big things, but it seems less widely beneficial. And we do seem increasingly to be at each other's throats. I don't know if they're related.

sapphicsnail 2y ago
The American Civil War was in the 1860s and there's been some pretty incredible periods of unrest between now and then. We are reaching some historic levels of wealth inequality though.
OhioMan2943 2y ago
Less social cohesion and less meritocracy

nradov 2y ago

That's a bizarre claim considering that the US economy is currently outperforming most other developed countries.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
PittleyDunkin 2y ago
When did I mention the economy?
- pedrosorio 2y ago
  > Such a culture isn't going to be globally competitive Globally competitive in what sense, then?
ethanwillis 2y ago
Well, the account was made 46 days ago. People can talk about rules of the site and so on. But, we live in a different world now than when the rules were made. Hybrid warfare and online interactions are the easiest way for US adversaries to spread FUD and sow dissent.

zxcvbnm69 2y ago

[dead]

nemo44x 2y ago

It’s literally the world’s oldest existing democracy and has the world’s most dynamic economy and diverse population and isn’t at civil war. What isn’t cohesive or globally competitive about that? Americans are also among the most generous and charitable people according to a number of easily Googleable metrics. What is “fuck other people” about that? Nowhere is perfect and America is far from it but at least 25% of the world (and likely higher) would immediately move there if they could.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Novosell 2y ago
It's only the worlds oldest democracy if you don't consider black people and women to be people.
- marky1991 2y ago
  What does that have to do with the us being a democracy? You don't have to have universal suffrage to be a democracy.
  - mr_toad 2y ago
    The people who don’t get to vote might disagree. In any case, the UK parliament has existed since 1705, which predates the American revolution.
  - Novosell 2y ago
    I disagree? As does the word democracy I'd say.
    - marky1991 2y ago
      By that logic, I don't think a democracy has ever existed. No country anywhere has or as far as I know, has ever had, true universal suffrage. Do you have an example of a democracy under your definition?

nepthar 2y ago

Sources?

jph00 2y ago

That doesn't really explain why there's a particularly notable drop in older adults after 2017, does it?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]