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Evolving my ergonomic setup (or, my laptop with extra steps)
- coopykins 2y agoI use a similar setup with my desktop: Split keyboard with trackball in the middle. Been using it for 3 years now and I love it.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y agoA Ploopy trackball - they're the best although I do kind of want a wireless one as well.
- ntietz 2y agoThe bearings are sooooo satisfying. I would also love to have a wireless one.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y agoI'm really tempted to get another one for use with my laptop, but I'm currently using a left-handed Elecom trackball that is wireless - it's fine, but not the sheer luxury of a Ploopy.
- ntietz 2y agoooh that's a good idea. I have wanted something wireless to make it more convenient to do supine computing, so that could be just the ticket. and cheers to another lefty mouse user!
- ndsipa_pomu 2y agoI feel like an imposter as I'm right handed, but taught myself to use a mouse/trackball left handed for better ergonomics.
- lawn 2y agoI don't want a trackball for my thumb but for my fingers.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y agoMost of the Ploopy trackballs are designed for fingering(!). The one shown in the article looks to me like the Adept model which I have too and is not a thumb-designed one. (My Elecom left-handed wireless trackball on the other hand is a thumb-oriented one. They take more getting used to as thumbs aren't quite as dextrous)
- lawn 2y agoOh, that's neat! For some reason I thought they only had a thumb variant...
- eschneider 2y agoGreat build! And I've been looking for something like the Ploopy trackball for -ages_. :)
- Cumpiler69 2y agoSame reason for me I only buy laptops who's displays can open nearly 180 degrees (so no MacBooks): it allows for a wider choice of more ergonomic postures looking straight ahead instead of down on the desk.
- theshackleford 2y agoIronically for ergonomics, I need to look down. I significantly increased my daily pain by trying to follow standard ergonomic advice because I failed to take into account my unique needs.
- jbverschoor 2y agoAny trackpad other than macbook gives me instant pain lol
- Cumpiler69 2y agoI use a mouse though. Track pads give me pain
- aitchnyu 2y agoDid you control for off-center trackpads for laptops which have number pads and small trackpads?
- JackMorgan 2y agoI like the newest design! The hook and loop for the power adapter in particular really is a great idea for something that needs to be removed so frequently.
- shahzaibmushtaq 2y agoA real-life example of necessity is the mother of invention as well as innovation.
- maeln 2y agoThis does look very cool. But my advise for anyone suffering from pain to their arms, hands, backs, and any other body parts that usually hurt for people working on computer all day: Do modest, but regular mobility and strength exercises. While having an ergonomic (and cool looking at that) setup is important, it wont save you from muscle atrophy. A physical therapist might help you find the right kind of exercises for you. This is often not obvious, because the muscle you need to reinforce / train are often not actually the one hurting. And you need to do it regularly. But if you stick to it, the payoff is much better than any setup I ever had.
- thisissomething 2y ago> This is often not obvious, because the muscle you need to reinforce / train are often not actually the one hurting. As someone who has done physical therapy for different issues, this is spot on. Lower back issues were actually due to weak hamstrings, and ankle issues due to weak calves. Doing daily mobility and strength exercises as part of my mourning routine improved my health as a whole. A couple months in, and all random aches, pains, and soreness that i'd feel upon waking up or during the day were simply gone. And it only takes me 30 minutes a day. It's a pretty awesome alternative to doom scrolling.
- theshackleford 2y agoI wish it only took me 30 minutes a day.
- loloquwowndueo 2y agoI’ll bite. Why does it take longer for you?
- maeln 2y agoNot the commenter, but AFAIK, people with some condition might have to put significantly more effort, at least at the beginning, to get equivalent result. The typical case would be for overweight/obese people. While mobility and strength always help, it won't counter balance all the strain that the extra weight put on your body. It will be more efficient to focus on getting lean first, and then focusing on strength/mobility. Although it is possible to do both (and maybe recommended ? But i am way out of my depth here).
- elric 2y agoI imagine we'll be seeing more personalized setups as time progresses. Custom keyboards have been pretty feasible and affordable for a good while now, with things like QMK and even custom PCB designers. It can still be a bit fiddly, so it's mostly keyboard nutters such as myself who go down that rabbit hole. Custom trackpads/mice/trackballs haven't gained as much traction, they're not quite as simple as keyboards, and maybe fewer people realise they could benefit from one. I think I might like an upright ergonomic mouse that's shaped to my hand, but then I'm so glued to my keyboard that it hardly seems worth the effort. As a child I always wanted a chair with a split keyboard built into the armrests. Probalby inspired by Palpatine's fancy chair. Maybe I'll make that investment one day ...
- akerl_ 2y agoI remember the chair mount being a post on the keyboard.io community forum. Somebody built that setup with the Model 01. Looked amazing; IIRC the tricky part was how to wire it back to the computer when the chair was on wheels.
- wahnfrieden 2y agoGlove80 is wireless and has a chair mount accessory
- gigaflop 2y ago>> I think I might like an upright ergonomic mouse that's shaped to my hand I use a Logitech MX Vertical mouse for work, and actually love it for pretty much all non-gaming/pixel-perfect tasks. It feels like it naturally fits my hand in terms of shape and size, which adds up over 40h weeks.
- elric 2y agoI've tried them, but something about the button placement feels off for the shape of my hand. I recommend them to people quite often, and they're usually well received.
- worldsayshi 2y ago
- coreyh14444 2y agoBonus Framework Laptop spotting :)
- gibbitz 2y agoI love that the desk in the shots is a coffee bar. Thinking of how customized my coffee setups are it is a clear analogy for ergonomics. Adapting an activity to one's biology.
- ntietz 2y agoI’m a sucker for aesthetics, and that is my most aesthetic spot for photo shoots
- vladak 2y agoThis feels familiar. I lug my Lenovo laptop, the Logitech ergonomic mouse, aluminium laptop stand and external Keychron keyboard (thinking about buying the Q10 with Alice layout), mostly to have convenient setup on the go, not primarily for ergonomics. Carrying all this stuff plus the extra other things in the daily backpack is certainly not ergonomic, however I think about it as training for some long hikes. I also use the LG DualUp display at home, like it very much. Similarly, my home setup has the rain design mStand next to it. Now, if the espresso machine could be also carried with the computer setup..
- ntietz 2y agoThe LG DualUp is such a gem! You may be interested in one of my current projects, I’ll post details when it’s done, but I stripped down a Crossland CC1 and am rebuilding it in an enclosure I can travel with. I think we’d get along.
- akho 2y agoTheir arms and neck hurt from computer use, so they develop elaborate setups to be able to use computers more. I just hope the ingenuity will run out before their body reaches an unrecoverable state.
- dammaj 2y agoWell, I don't the intention is to spend more time using the computer. When your work consists of using the computer, it is "rational" to do whatever is possible to minimize the undesirable effects and any harm. Now, if you are suggesting that OP should change his work (or his hobby) then your I don't think your comment is helpful. Regards.
- ntietz 2y agoIt’s a “yes and” approach. I’ve been pursuing physical therapy and medical treatment the whole time as well.
- akho 2y agoGlad to hear that, and hope you can work it out.
- margalabargala 2y agoThis is a bit unfair. Their arms and neck hurt from using computers (specifically laptops) in their factory configuration. They have reconfigured the physical layout to no longer cause pain when used.
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- JimmyWilliams1 2y ago[dead]
- tokai 2y agoBalls ever worked for me. Makes my hands cramped. Bar or rollermouse (rollermice?) has worked wonders for me though. Keeps the elbows tucked in, and makes both hands able to share the work load. That being said with that amount of effort in making an ergonomic workstation, perhaps the first move should have been a dock and a proper screen than can be positioned correctly.
- progforlyfe 2y agothat's really fuckin cool!
- resource_waste 2y agoI don't think the solution is to move your body less. Having multiple desks and desk heights and possibly multiple keyboards is probably what is needed. Not to mention stretching and strengthening. I'd recommend OP go to physical therapy.
- Tarrosion 2y agoOP, you have a comment there about mouse support in the Keyboardio. I've been using a Keyboardio since 2019 and haven't much tried the mouse support -- any advice? How did you set it up?
- fipar 2y agoNot OP, but I have a Model 100 and I just assigned mouse keys in Chrysallis. It used to be the case that you had to build your firmware to change the speed, but now that's possible through Chrysallis too. I don't use them very often because I don't mind using a trackpad, but it is useful sometimes.
- troismph 2y agoThe coffee machine makes the whole setup even more ergonomic.
- LAC-Tech 2y agoFor those wondering about the tiny amount of keys, you definitely can get used to it. I have a similar sized keyboard, and the trade off is basically - I move my hands around the keyboard much less, and in return I have to to press more keys. IE, to make the ( symbol I have to press 3 keys, and on a regular keyboard it's 2 keys (shift + 9), but you have to move your hand up and right to a place in the keyboard I don't even have. I'm basically on the home row all the time. There's also various timing based mechanisms to get around this (ie, hold a key and it does something different if you tap it), but I find it all a bit fiddly and just do basic chording. YMMV.
- lawn 2y agoI even think the Corne have too many keys and for me it's enough with a 3x5 grid plus one or two thumb keys. The big trade-off is layout complexity. My layout[0] is extremely complicated... [0]: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/the_current_cybershard_layout/ https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/the_current_cybe...
- jmercouris 2y agoI don't understand why one wouldn't just limit their time using the computer. If using a computer is giving you pain, stop using it. You can do most of your programming in your mind anyways.
- NoPicklez 2y agoWell perhaps "not using the computer" won't actually fix the problem to begin with.
- 8n4vidtmkvmk 2y agoI don't know what kind of genius mind you have, but I at least have to write down my ideas. Paper will suffice though.
- jmercouris 2y agoIf you know a domain space intimately, and are working on a problem for enough time, you don't need to write things down to think things through.
- zharknado 2y agoThis is awesome. Thanks for sharing it!
- __mharrison__ 2y agoAlways like to see what ergonomic tricks work for others. A few thoughts. Corne doesn't have mouse support? My Lily58 does. (I thought they were basically the same expect mine has number keys.) Cool mouse. I have a CST mouse, which is similar and works for me. I wonder if there is some way to make the wood monitor mount/tray skimmer or more portable. The first search on Amazon for "desktop laptop stand" pulls up an Amazon basics stand that gives a little more confidence than the wood stand. Of course, it isn't diy.
- xixixao 2y agoAll I need is a mac with the screen at the right height (at my eye level). So far the best setup I came up with is long car mount for my 12inch iPad. The iPad sits above my macbook screen. I use this on planes and at tables without monitors.
- bjord 2y agoit's a cool setup, though I wonder if it might be more compact if one designed a new case for the framework (laptop), given that the built-in keyboard and trackpad will go unused one complaint: I initially had no idea what a "hook and loop fastener" was, and even then I had to google it to confirm it was velcro
- k__ 2y agoAnyone tried coding with XR glasses?
- n144q 2y agoA reminder that you want to take a break every half an hour or so from your desk if possible, even with the best ergonomic setup in the world. People often start with a good posture and then slouch over time, and an ergonomic setup alone cannot fix it. Taking regular breaks also helps your eyesight.
- glitchc 2y agoDoes TSA give you a hard time when they see that rig pop up on the X-ray?
- GoldenRacer 2y agoI have a similar setup. Corne keyboard, trackball mouse, portable laptop stand. Never had an issue with TSA. I don't even bother taking the keyboard out of my bag since each half is roughly the size of a cell phone
- jakupovic 2y agoBiggest thing, or the only thing that worked, is using 2 keyboards. With this I get the correct width needed. Whenever I use the regular keyboards I have to scrunch my shoulders and this leads to back pain and arm/hands pain. Highly recommend
- prmoustache 2y agoMoving that coffee machine out of the room will do much more for the OP's body than any keyboard, screen or trackball setup change.
- robrtsql 2y agoShe addresses that, actually... https://www.ntietz.com/blog/decaf-is-good-actually/ https://www.ntietz.com/blog/decaf-is-good-actually/
- prmoustache 2y agoMy point was more about the location of the machine. Having to do a quick pause and walk to your kitchen to prepare a cup of coffee, tee or whatever once in a while is not a bad thing for ypur body.
- amelius 2y agoPerhaps someone could build and sell a portable computer that can do that.
- robomartin 2y agoAll of these so-called solutions are a waste of time and largely just adding a ridiculous amount of complexity to what is a very simple problem. Context: I worked a number of years in the special effects (movies) world. I supported hundreds of graphics artists working in dark rooms 16 hours a day. Think movies like Independence Day, Star Wars, etc. Dozens of artists wore all kinds of wrist braces all day. They also had just-about every single crazy ergonomic keyboard you could possibly imagine, including various forms of split, slanted, cavity, whatever. And, of course, the fanciest adjustable chairs and tables. I remember a couple of the guys working on Independence Day having to have surgery on their wrists. Crazy. Just nuts. Do you know who did not suffer from these injuries? Without fail, anyone who was actively involved in sports or physical training (going to the gym, lifting, swimming, etc.) AND took regular breaks. In my own case, having seen just how bad things could get, once I started to feel soreness on my wrists I took matters into my own hands. I use the flattest possible keyboards and a thumb-operated trackball. I designed and made my own desk to guarantee proper arm and wrist ergonomics. Laptops, for the most part, are evil. They force the wrist into a bad configuration. Not good for prolonged work if you care about your health. Aside from that, take breaks and lift weights. Amazing things happen when you squat, deadlift, bench and shoulder press on a regular program (I recommend Starting Strength). The vast majority of the crazy ergo setups out there are a waste of time. They do not address the root cause, which is treating your body like we are robots. We are not. We need moderation, rest and exercise. That's the solution or, at the very least, the way to mitigate and prevent injury.
- fipar 2y agoI agree completely with you regarding not treating our bodies as if we're robots. About a year ago I began lifting weights again, something I hadn't done in more than 20 years, and the difference is amazing. I used to have very frequent pain episodes that would severely affect my ability to type on a keyboard, and now they are almost completely gone (and when I do get them, it's nowhere near as severe as it used to be). That said, I still have a Model 100 (as the one depicted in the older pictures in the post) and the ergonomics are IMHO worth it, at least compared to some of the keyboards available, but in particular to builtin laptop keyboards (as you mention, everything is bad about laptops and I treat mine like a very portable desktop: if I need to be on the move, I take my keyboard and trackpad and use the laptop as a small display). On top of that, the fact that it's programmable turned out to be much better than I had thought. My workflow is heavily customized now and I'm objectively a lot faster than I used to be before. The layers system on this keyboard takes a bit of getting used to (as does the layout itself) but, at least for me, once I got through the learning curve, it's so good I'm going to buy another one to have as a spare.