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Yes, that's one of the main findings from the article. > The extent of the decline seems to be driven by the lowest performing students losing more ground, a w

Yes, that's one of the main findings from the article. > The extent of the decline seems to be driven by the lowest performing students losing more ground, a worrying trend that predates the pandemic. > Scores for the highest performing American fourth graders were about the same as in 2019, but the lowest performing students — those in the bottom 10% — saw their scores drop by 37 points in math and by 22 points in science compared with similar students in 2019. The lowest performing eighth graders saw their scores drop by 19 points in math. One in five U.S. eighth graders scored below the low benchmark, meaning they lacked even basic proficiency. > This gap between high- and low-performing students started to widen before the pandemic for reasons that are unclear. Since then, other research into post-pandemic academic performance has found widening gaps across race and income, even as many middle and higher income students are doing well. What do we do with this info?

mmooss 2y ago
Your claim and the GP's are very different: * Yours is that the bottom 10% are declining. That says nothing about who is in the bottom 10%. * The GP says the composition of the population has changed, and blames immigrants.
- itishappy 2y ago
  > There was also a strong correlation between socioeconomic status and test scores. Students from higher income households and those who attended schools with more affluent students had higher scores.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    That doesn't say the composition changed - that could have been true before - or that immigration status is any factor at all.
  - SkyBelow 2y ago
    The question is what was the delta within that group (and within other groups). Given we know that those of higher socioeconomic status do better than average, did they improve compared to their past selves, stay roughly the same, or degrade despite still maintaining above average results? If, for example, they degraded, then it would indicate there is a problem happening that even the higher socioeconomic status doesn't protect from despite all its benefits (well it might protect relatively better that other SES, but not enough to prevent the downward trend). If, instead, they improved relative to their past selves, it would indicate the problem causing the overall trend is found entirely within other SES groups (well not entirely, as it is possible the impact still hit this group but that other factors more than made up for it, but to keep it simple, we can ignore such a possibility unless we see even better data that can parse out these more complex relationships).
- DAGdug 2y ago
  The Simpson’s paradox part is factual, and has been known for over a decade courtesy Steve Sailer, who is an immigration restrictionist. A fairer critique of the poster is that they’re unoriginal (rather than that they’re blaming immigrants, which I didn’t see in this post).
  - bryanrasmussen 2y ago
    > While US has excellent education, and immigrant children in America do better than their counterparts in their countries of origin, they don’t do as well as the modal group of white Americans, so as the composition changes... it doesn't say the immigrants are to blame, it just strongly implies that this could be a likely reason, furthermore for some reason to be an immigrant is to not be white which certainly was not the case when I immigrated to America.
    - geraldwhen 2y ago
      https://www.pewresearch.org/race-and-ethnicity/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s-immigrants/ https://www.pewresearch.org/race-and-ethnicity/2020/08/20/fa... American immigrants are no longer white, overwhelmingly.
      - mmooss 2y ago
        Perhaps that is related to all the rationalizations of white supremacy.
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      A more plausible interpretation is that the education system is failing immigrant families currently. This has the benefit of both matching the evidence and not having racist implications.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    > courtesy Steve Sailer, who is an immigration restrictionist That doesn't make this argument credible. Is there any credible source? > rather than that they’re blaming immigrants, which I didn’t see in this post We know well that the talking points of racism are formed to create ambiguity and use dog whistles. That goes back half a century and probably much longer. These are the talking points.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
DAGdug 2y ago
Make better policy decisions next time around? (Surprise, surprise, poor kids don’t do zoom classes).
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
Glyptodon 2y ago
It's pretty obvious: our society, because it's based on representative government, requires a baseline of general welfare sufficient that as many citizens as possible have leisure time and are not subject to PTSD-inducing levels of stress. This is at odds with the increasing inequality and increasing cultural and class stratification within our society. As it is increasingly only possible for upper-middle class and up parents to care for children effectively, the rest of the child-age population will continue to be worse and worse off, while the upper middle class pull the ladders up after themselves out of concern and fear over the future welfare of their own children being completely zero sum. The most urgent things that need to happen to stop this are: - Ensuring sick leave, vacation time, and improving wages, especially on the lower end, such that 1.5 incomes are sufficient for 2 child homes so that parents can have time for their children. - Policies that severely disincentivize vouchers, private, and charter education so that there are fewer incentives to try and create "tides that selectively lift boats." - Increasing the housing supply.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  None of that stuff is going to happen. Just look at the recent election results: Americans don't want any of that stuff.
  - clarionbell 2y ago
    You seem to be confusing "Wanting that stuff" and "Believing that solution can be implemented by the same people I do" Americans, overwhelmingly, agree that things are not going in the right direction. What they are split on, is how to fix it, and what is the greatest driver.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      No, I'm not at all. If you really think the GOP is going to promote legislation to "[Ensure] sick leave, vacation time, and [improve] wages, especially on the lower end", then you are seriously delusional. You'd have to be a complete idiot to think that GOP politicians are going to push for any of this stuff, because they've never done so in the past, and it certainly isn't part of their current platform. Those goes even more for disincentivizing private school, vouchers, etc., since those are things the GOP has been actively promoting for ages. They've also said nothing about wanting to increase housing supply.

mmooss 2y ago

Your claim and the GP's are very different: * Yours is that the bottom 10% are declining. That says nothing about who is in the bottom 10%. * The GP says the composition of the population has changed, and blames immigrants.

itishappy 2y ago
> There was also a strong correlation between socioeconomic status and test scores. Students from higher income households and those who attended schools with more affluent students had higher scores.
- mmooss 2y ago
  That doesn't say the composition changed - that could have been true before - or that immigration status is any factor at all.
- SkyBelow 2y ago
  The question is what was the delta within that group (and within other groups). Given we know that those of higher socioeconomic status do better than average, did they improve compared to their past selves, stay roughly the same, or degrade despite still maintaining above average results? If, for example, they degraded, then it would indicate there is a problem happening that even the higher socioeconomic status doesn't protect from despite all its benefits (well it might protect relatively better that other SES, but not enough to prevent the downward trend). If, instead, they improved relative to their past selves, it would indicate the problem causing the overall trend is found entirely within other SES groups (well not entirely, as it is possible the impact still hit this group but that other factors more than made up for it, but to keep it simple, we can ignore such a possibility unless we see even better data that can parse out these more complex relationships).
DAGdug 2y ago
The Simpson’s paradox part is factual, and has been known for over a decade courtesy Steve Sailer, who is an immigration restrictionist. A fairer critique of the poster is that they’re unoriginal (rather than that they’re blaming immigrants, which I didn’t see in this post).
- bryanrasmussen 2y ago
  > While US has excellent education, and immigrant children in America do better than their counterparts in their countries of origin, they don’t do as well as the modal group of white Americans, so as the composition changes... it doesn't say the immigrants are to blame, it just strongly implies that this could be a likely reason, furthermore for some reason to be an immigrant is to not be white which certainly was not the case when I immigrated to America.
  - geraldwhen 2y ago
    https://www.pewresearch.org/race-and-ethnicity/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s-immigrants/ https://www.pewresearch.org/race-and-ethnicity/2020/08/20/fa... American immigrants are no longer white, overwhelmingly.
    - mmooss 2y ago
      Perhaps that is related to all the rationalizations of white supremacy.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    A more plausible interpretation is that the education system is failing immigrant families currently. This has the benefit of both matching the evidence and not having racist implications.
- mmooss 2y ago
  > courtesy Steve Sailer, who is an immigration restrictionist That doesn't make this argument credible. Is there any credible source? > rather than that they’re blaming immigrants, which I didn’t see in this post We know well that the talking points of racism are formed to create ambiguity and use dog whistles. That goes back half a century and probably much longer. These are the talking points.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

DAGdug 2y ago

Make better policy decisions next time around? (Surprise, surprise, poor kids don’t do zoom classes).

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

Glyptodon 2y ago

It's pretty obvious: our society, because it's based on representative government, requires a baseline of general welfare sufficient that as many citizens as possible have leisure time and are not subject to PTSD-inducing levels of stress. This is at odds with the increasing inequality and increasing cultural and class stratification within our society. As it is increasingly only possible for upper-middle class and up parents to care for children effectively, the rest of the child-age population will continue to be worse and worse off, while the upper middle class pull the ladders up after themselves out of concern and fear over the future welfare of their own children being completely zero sum. The most urgent things that need to happen to stop this are: - Ensuring sick leave, vacation time, and improving wages, especially on the lower end, such that 1.5 incomes are sufficient for 2 child homes so that parents can have time for their children. - Policies that severely disincentivize vouchers, private, and charter education so that there are fewer incentives to try and create "tides that selectively lift boats." - Increasing the housing supply.

shiroiushi 2y ago
None of that stuff is going to happen. Just look at the recent election results: Americans don't want any of that stuff.
- clarionbell 2y ago
  You seem to be confusing "Wanting that stuff" and "Believing that solution can be implemented by the same people I do" Americans, overwhelmingly, agree that things are not going in the right direction. What they are split on, is how to fix it, and what is the greatest driver.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    No, I'm not at all. If you really think the GOP is going to promote legislation to "[Ensure] sick leave, vacation time, and [improve] wages, especially on the lower end", then you are seriously delusional. You'd have to be a complete idiot to think that GOP politicians are going to push for any of this stuff, because they've never done so in the past, and it certainly isn't part of their current platform. Those goes even more for disincentivizing private school, vouchers, etc., since those are things the GOP has been actively promoting for ages. They've also said nothing about wanting to increase housing supply.