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I’ve basically stopped eating fish now: most fish is mass-hunted from unsustainable populations, farmed fish has horrible problems with disease, and there’s hug

I’ve basically stopped eating fish now: most fish is mass-hunted from unsustainable populations, farmed fish has horrible problems with disease, and there’s huge collatoral damage against other sea-based life.

nativeit 2y ago
It’s also worth noting that the seafood aisle at the grocery store is essentially entirely the product of slave labor, at least at some point along the supply chain.
- mistercheph 2y ago
  maybe if you're shopping at megafood inc., I know plenty of professional commercial fishermen and this is far from true, go to a fishmonger and ask him questions about where the fish comes from!
  - ornornor 2y ago
    To that point, see the « outlaw ocean » book by Ian Urbina: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outlaw_Ocean https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outlaw_Ocean
kibwen 2y ago
Even if you're not into saving the environment, the oceans are absolutely disgusting by this point and I wouldn't trust anything fished out of it.
vouaobrasil 2y ago
Same here. I stopped completely. I rarely eat meat but when I do, it's farmed chicken. Not great either, but at least it's a reduction and it doesn't have as much collateral damage (except land clearing).
actionfromafar 2y ago
Recirculating aquaculture systems on land might be a solution. But it's expensive and error prone, and the volumes are still very low.
psychoslave 2y ago
Did you move to other alimentary disciplines too? Just curious
- robin_reala 2y ago
  I’m definitely not a vegetarian by any stretch of the term, but I broadly restrict my meat eating to a couple of times a week, where it’s a small amount mostly for flavour, and mostly organic meat where available. I basically never eat meat if I’m ordering from a restaurant; every restaurant in my area at least has great vegetarian / vegan options available.
kristopolous 2y ago
It's hunting wild game at an industrial, global, scale, for billions of people among hundreds of countries and expecting things will magically work themselves out indefinitely, with strong emphasis on "magically work". This is certainly a dumb idea. Some like to imagine this is defensible. We've all learned the futility of disputing with people's imaginations. I'd rather things weren't this way as well. Seafood is delicious
- vouaobrasil 2y ago
  Absolutely right. I would be happy to eat fish once and a while but only if I caught one myself. People imagine it is defensible because (a) the cognitive dissonance is too great for most and (b) industrial civilization has made it so that industrial farming is the only easy way to live. Some people say, "then go live on a farm and grow it yourself". But the problem is that even today, to get any land, you have to have a lot of money first, which means working to further the system again. There is no recourse for the poor who might even choose a different life if that were an option.
  - eptcyka 2y ago
    No, the problem with everyone livivng off the land is that is incredibly inefficient. On the other hand, we have subsidized every kind of farming to such an extent that it now cannot survive without the induced demand. There are thousands of livelihoods today that depend on the process that is destroying livelihoods of tomorrow.
    - vouaobrasil 2y ago
      > No, the problem with everyone livivng off the land is that is incredibly inefficient. True, but only in a world with so many people. The alternative is something efficient but destructive.
  - kulahan 2y ago
    I’m not trying to be preachy, just take issue with the idea that there is no way for the poor to avoid eating factory farmed meat - at a bare minimum, we can agree that vegetarianism is possible, no?
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
Most of it isn't even good. I'll admit I'm not a good cook, but most fish just doesn't hit spots, and it's super expensive to boot.
- hansvm 2y ago
  Most fish in most US markets aren't worth buying, especially if you pay extra for "wild Alaskan cod" or whatever. Even a good cook will struggle with meat that deteriorated for a couple days in a holding tank, was frozen too slowly, re-thawed to market as "fresh", and frozen again when it didn't sell soon enough. Farmed atlantic salmon, especially if it's pretty light colored, is the thing I've found that's most likely to be decent in various parts of the country without having to experiment with too many brands. The "belly" cut (with a thinner region where the ribs were) is best. Luckily, salmon is one of the easier things for a home cook to get right. The higher fat content makes it more forgiving. Lightly salt it, throw it on a lightly oiled sheet pan, and bake at 200F till it's done (around 1hr depending on your oven, recipes usually recommend higher temperatures, but if it's overcooked it's less pleasant, and the lower temperature gives you more leeway as you're learning what that looks like in person -- watch a quick video while it cooks showing what "done" should be, but it's just as the fish starts flaking apart instead of sticking together, and the flakes shouldn't be very firm or dry yet). Then make something to pair it with. Blacken some asparagus (peel any tough woody bits, especially if it's winter or the asparagus are big) or broccoli for a minute or two in a hot pan, sprinkle with a bit of salt, maybe squeeze in a lemon, and definitely melt a knob of butter over the veggies. Maybe sprinkle in a few pine nuts at that point to toast in the hot pan. If you want to impress everyone, make a sauce to go with it. The simplest that comes to mind is to heat up some soy sauce, honey, garlic, and ginger together, cooking a minute or two till it's syrupy. If you added lemon and pine nuts to the veggies, a lemon butter sauce might be appropriate instead. The basic idea is to cook the flavors down till there's not much liquid (e.g., sweating garlic in 1 lemon's worth of juice for 1-2 min), take the pan off the heat, and once it's not much more than room temperature you'll add in a few tablespoons of cold butter, one at a time, and whisk those in till they're melted. Butter is naturally a mixture of fat and water, and if you don't get it too hot it'll stay melted but still "mixed" (emulsified) and give you a thick, creamy sauce. Maybe watch a quick video on the idea first, but even if you "fail" you'll still get something that tastes good and is just thinner than you were attempting to make.
lordnacho 2y ago
I think you're right, and I've decided that the same is true for meat, in that large animals are basically in the same category as us in terms of morality, ie I don't know where the line goes but it's not ok to kill them. However, I am a massive hypocrite and I don't let my moral thoughts bother my everyday consumption patterns.
- soulofmischief 2y ago
  Try starting with one less meat meal a week. When that no longer feels difficult, try one less meal again. Even if you don't settle on a meat-free diet, any reduction in consumption makes a huge difference en masse.
  - vouaobrasil 2y ago
    I have found that sometimes with a vegetarian diet I feel like I need more protein. But a balance I've found that works is 1-2 meat meals per month is enough to balance it out.
    - nelblu 2y ago
      I felt the same way when I started reducing meat. But then I started substituting it with Whey protein and Greek yogurt, and now I eat meat once in 3 to 4 weeks.
    - rqtwteye 2y ago
      Make sure you get a lot of beans. They are pretty good on protein. How do you notice that you need more protein? I hear that quite a bit but I have no idea how it manifests.
  - gambiting 2y ago
    I had the same thought actually - what did it for me was realizing that I started to eat meat 3 times a day - breakfast, lunch and dinner all had meat in them, almost always. But when I was growing up in Poland, you'd have meat maybe 2-3 times a week - not because we were poor, but purely because no one looked at a meal of vegetable dumplings(or many other meat-free dishes) as something worse compared to meat - it had the same cultural status as a porkchop. But now I live in the UK and not eating meat for dinner is almost immediately seen as weird, or "oh you're a vegeterian now?" - no....I just don't eat meat for every meal? Why is this immediately seen as suspicious? And again, no one in Poland ever thought of these meals as "vegetarian" - they were just normal meals, not a special lifestyle choice.

nativeit 2y ago

It’s also worth noting that the seafood aisle at the grocery store is essentially entirely the product of slave labor, at least at some point along the supply chain.

mistercheph 2y ago
maybe if you're shopping at megafood inc., I know plenty of professional commercial fishermen and this is far from true, go to a fishmonger and ask him questions about where the fish comes from!
- ornornor 2y ago
  To that point, see the « outlaw ocean » book by Ian Urbina: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outlaw_Ocean https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outlaw_Ocean

kibwen 2y ago

Even if you're not into saving the environment, the oceans are absolutely disgusting by this point and I wouldn't trust anything fished out of it.

vouaobrasil 2y ago

Same here. I stopped completely. I rarely eat meat but when I do, it's farmed chicken. Not great either, but at least it's a reduction and it doesn't have as much collateral damage (except land clearing).

actionfromafar 2y ago

Recirculating aquaculture systems on land might be a solution. But it's expensive and error prone, and the volumes are still very low.

psychoslave 2y ago

Did you move to other alimentary disciplines too? Just curious

robin_reala 2y ago
I’m definitely not a vegetarian by any stretch of the term, but I broadly restrict my meat eating to a couple of times a week, where it’s a small amount mostly for flavour, and mostly organic meat where available. I basically never eat meat if I’m ordering from a restaurant; every restaurant in my area at least has great vegetarian / vegan options available.

kristopolous 2y ago

It's hunting wild game at an industrial, global, scale, for billions of people among hundreds of countries and expecting things will magically work themselves out indefinitely, with strong emphasis on "magically work". This is certainly a dumb idea. Some like to imagine this is defensible. We've all learned the futility of disputing with people's imaginations. I'd rather things weren't this way as well. Seafood is delicious

vouaobrasil 2y ago
Absolutely right. I would be happy to eat fish once and a while but only if I caught one myself. People imagine it is defensible because (a) the cognitive dissonance is too great for most and (b) industrial civilization has made it so that industrial farming is the only easy way to live. Some people say, "then go live on a farm and grow it yourself". But the problem is that even today, to get any land, you have to have a lot of money first, which means working to further the system again. There is no recourse for the poor who might even choose a different life if that were an option.
- eptcyka 2y ago
  No, the problem with everyone livivng off the land is that is incredibly inefficient. On the other hand, we have subsidized every kind of farming to such an extent that it now cannot survive without the induced demand. There are thousands of livelihoods today that depend on the process that is destroying livelihoods of tomorrow.
  - vouaobrasil 2y ago
    > No, the problem with everyone livivng off the land is that is incredibly inefficient. True, but only in a world with so many people. The alternative is something efficient but destructive.
- kulahan 2y ago
  I’m not trying to be preachy, just take issue with the idea that there is no way for the poor to avoid eating factory farmed meat - at a bare minimum, we can agree that vegetarianism is possible, no?

Cthulhu_ 2y ago

Most of it isn't even good. I'll admit I'm not a good cook, but most fish just doesn't hit spots, and it's super expensive to boot.

hansvm 2y ago
Most fish in most US markets aren't worth buying, especially if you pay extra for "wild Alaskan cod" or whatever. Even a good cook will struggle with meat that deteriorated for a couple days in a holding tank, was frozen too slowly, re-thawed to market as "fresh", and frozen again when it didn't sell soon enough. Farmed atlantic salmon, especially if it's pretty light colored, is the thing I've found that's most likely to be decent in various parts of the country without having to experiment with too many brands. The "belly" cut (with a thinner region where the ribs were) is best. Luckily, salmon is one of the easier things for a home cook to get right. The higher fat content makes it more forgiving. Lightly salt it, throw it on a lightly oiled sheet pan, and bake at 200F till it's done (around 1hr depending on your oven, recipes usually recommend higher temperatures, but if it's overcooked it's less pleasant, and the lower temperature gives you more leeway as you're learning what that looks like in person -- watch a quick video while it cooks showing what "done" should be, but it's just as the fish starts flaking apart instead of sticking together, and the flakes shouldn't be very firm or dry yet). Then make something to pair it with. Blacken some asparagus (peel any tough woody bits, especially if it's winter or the asparagus are big) or broccoli for a minute or two in a hot pan, sprinkle with a bit of salt, maybe squeeze in a lemon, and definitely melt a knob of butter over the veggies. Maybe sprinkle in a few pine nuts at that point to toast in the hot pan. If you want to impress everyone, make a sauce to go with it. The simplest that comes to mind is to heat up some soy sauce, honey, garlic, and ginger together, cooking a minute or two till it's syrupy. If you added lemon and pine nuts to the veggies, a lemon butter sauce might be appropriate instead. The basic idea is to cook the flavors down till there's not much liquid (e.g., sweating garlic in 1 lemon's worth of juice for 1-2 min), take the pan off the heat, and once it's not much more than room temperature you'll add in a few tablespoons of cold butter, one at a time, and whisk those in till they're melted. Butter is naturally a mixture of fat and water, and if you don't get it too hot it'll stay melted but still "mixed" (emulsified) and give you a thick, creamy sauce. Maybe watch a quick video on the idea first, but even if you "fail" you'll still get something that tastes good and is just thinner than you were attempting to make.

lordnacho 2y ago

I think you're right, and I've decided that the same is true for meat, in that large animals are basically in the same category as us in terms of morality, ie I don't know where the line goes but it's not ok to kill them. However, I am a massive hypocrite and I don't let my moral thoughts bother my everyday consumption patterns.

soulofmischief 2y ago
Try starting with one less meat meal a week. When that no longer feels difficult, try one less meal again. Even if you don't settle on a meat-free diet, any reduction in consumption makes a huge difference en masse.
- vouaobrasil 2y ago
  I have found that sometimes with a vegetarian diet I feel like I need more protein. But a balance I've found that works is 1-2 meat meals per month is enough to balance it out.
  - nelblu 2y ago
    I felt the same way when I started reducing meat. But then I started substituting it with Whey protein and Greek yogurt, and now I eat meat once in 3 to 4 weeks.
  - rqtwteye 2y ago
    Make sure you get a lot of beans. They are pretty good on protein. How do you notice that you need more protein? I hear that quite a bit but I have no idea how it manifests.
- gambiting 2y ago
  I had the same thought actually - what did it for me was realizing that I started to eat meat 3 times a day - breakfast, lunch and dinner all had meat in them, almost always. But when I was growing up in Poland, you'd have meat maybe 2-3 times a week - not because we were poor, but purely because no one looked at a meal of vegetable dumplings(or many other meat-free dishes) as something worse compared to meat - it had the same cultural status as a porkchop. But now I live in the UK and not eating meat for dinner is almost immediately seen as weird, or "oh you're a vegeterian now?" - no....I just don't eat meat for every meal? Why is this immediately seen as suspicious? And again, no one in Poland ever thought of these meals as "vegetarian" - they were just normal meals, not a special lifestyle choice.