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Wow this is bad. And by bad i mean worse than leading open source and existing alternatives. Is it me or does it seem like OpenAI revolutionized with both chat

Wow this is bad. And by bad i mean worse than leading open source and existing alternatives. Is it me or does it seem like OpenAI revolutionized with both chatGPT and Sora, but they've completely hit the ceiling? Honestly a bit surprised it happened so fast!

kranke155 2y ago
Sora was not really that big of a revolution, it was just catching up with competitors. I would even say in gen video they are behind right now.
- pawelduda 2y ago
  What is the best model in your opinion right now?
  - ElectroNomad 2y ago
    RunwayML
  - echelon 2y ago
    HunYuan by Tencent. It's 100% open source too.
  - kranke155 2y ago
    There are a lot of them, but Runway seems to have good controls and they are aligned with people who will actually use it - filmmakers and content creators. In terms of image quality. Runway, Luma, and a few of the Chinese models all give "ok" results. I haven't seen anything from Sora to convince me they have done any kind of significant leap. The issue there is alignment. It's cheap for Runway or Luma to continue in this path since it's their only path to profitability, they do nothing else. But for OpenAI, I don't think this is near their top list of priorities. I doubt that they will be able to keep adding features like their competitors. Seems to me like this is the equivalent of a side project for them. edit after watching direct comparison videos, I've changed my mind. Sora is ahead.
  - kranke155 2y ago
    UPDATE: After watching direct comparison videos between prompts, I do think now that Sora is ahead. It's not a huge leap but it seems much better at keeping fine details roughly aligned. For anyone who is curious where to find tons of SORA videos, go to reddit r/aivideo
- SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
  Sora had some sweet cherry picked initial hype videos. That was more impressive than anything we could do at the time. Now, yea, it's questionable if it's on-par let alone better.
  - kranke155 2y ago
    Wasn't just cherry picked. The balloon kid video had a VFX team cleaning up the output. They've said that now.
joe_the_user 2y ago
Bad also in the sense once you get over the "boy, it's amazing they can do that", you immediately think "boy, they really shouldn't do that".
Banditoz 2y ago
What are some of the open source video models?
tshaddox 2y ago
What are the leading alternatives? (Open source or otherwise)
- elorant 2y ago
  MidJourney (commercial), Standard Diffusion XL
  - aruametello 2y ago
    > Standard Diffusion XL you probably meant Stable Diffusion XL. (autocorrect victim)
- amrrs 2y ago
  Minimax (from China) and Kling 1.5 from China. Recently Tencent launched its own. You can see more model samples heee https://youtu.be/bCAV_9O1ioc https://youtu.be/bCAV_9O1ioc
  - ztratar 2y ago
    Those look... far worse? What am I missing.
    - amrrs 2y ago
      Exactly I don't know how people are saying SORA is bad. I know there are restrictions with humans. But with the storyboard and other customisations, it's definitely up there!
- stuckkeys 2y ago
  FLUX
- vunderba 2y ago
  You have to be specific. What's more important to you? - uncensored output (SD + LoRa) - Overall speed of generation (midjourney) - Image quality (probably midjourney, or an SDXL checkpoint + upscaler) - Prompt adherence (flux, DALL-E 3) EDIT: This is strictly around image generation. The main video competitors are Kling, Hailuo, and Runway.
tom1337 2y ago
Same goes with DALLE. It was cool to try it the first week or so but now the output is so much worse than Midjourney and stable diffusion. For me it can’t even generate straight lines and everything looks comic-ish.
- vunderba 2y ago
  DALL-E 3 image quality has always been subpar, but its prompt adherence is on par with FLUX. Midjourney has some of the worst prompt adherence, but some of the best image quality.
  - CamperBob2 2y ago
    DALL-E 3 image quality was absolutely amazing... for about 3 days. Then they must have panicked, because after that, everything it emitted included that ridiculous telltale orange/blue tint.
- amzn-throw 2y ago
  To me this is just a simple artifact of size & attention. Another example of this is stuff like Bluesky. There's a lot of reasons to hate Twitter/X, but people going "Wow, Bluesky is so amazing, there's no ads and it's so much less toxic!" aren't complimenting Bluesky, they're just noting that it's smaller, has less attention, and so they don't have ads or the toxic masses YET. GenAI image generation is an obvious vector for all sorts of problems, from copyrighted material, to real life people, to porn, and so on. OpenAI and Google have to be extraordinarily strict about this due to all the attention on them, and so end up locking down artistic expression dramatically. Midjourney and Stable Diffision may have equal stature amongst tech people, but in the public sphere they're unknowns. So they can get away with more risk.
  - Liquix 2y ago
    >OpenAI and Google have to be extraordinarily strict Why? Did the inventors of VHS tapes "have to be extraordinarily strict" and bake in safeguards because people might violate copyright laws, make porn, or tape something illegal? Enforcing laws is the responsibility of the legal system. It sets a concerning precedent when companies like OAI would rather lobotomize their flagship products than risk them generating any Wrongthink.
lacoolj 2y ago
If you're going to say something like this, you need to back it up with specific alternatives that provide a better result. Besides just citing your sources, I'm genuinely curious what the best ones are for this so I can see the competition :)
- echelon 2y ago
  HunYuan released by Tencent [1] is much better than Sora. It's 100% open source, is compatible with fine tuning, ComfyUI, control nets, and is receiving lots of active development. That's not the only open video model, either. Lightricks' LTX, Genmo's Mochi, and Black Forest Labs' upcoming models will all be open source video foundation models. Sora is commoditized like Dall-E at this point. Video will be dominated by players like Flux and Stable Diffusion. [1] https://github.com/Tencent/HunyuanVideo/ https://github.com/Tencent/HunyuanVideo/
  - vlovich123 2y ago
    Something being available OSS is very different from a turnkey product solution, not to mention that Tencent's 60 GiB requirement requires a setup with like at least 3-4 GPUs which is quite rare & fairly expensive vs something time-sharing like Sora where you pay a relatively small amount per video. I think the important thing is task quality and I haven't seen any evaluations of that yet.
    - echelon 2y ago
      > Something being available OSS is very different from a turnkey product solution, not to mention that Tencent's 60 GiB requirement requires a setup with like at least 3-4 GPUs which is quite rare & fairly expensive vs something time-sharing like Sora where you pay a relatively small amount per video. It took two weeks to go from Mochi running on 8xH100s to running on 3090s. I don't think you appreciate the rapidity at which open source moves in this space. HunYuan landed less than one week ago with just one modality (text-to-video), and it's already got LoRA training and fine tuning code, Comfy nodes, and control nets. Their roadmap is technically impressive and has many more control levers in scope. I don't think you realize how "commodity" these models are and how closed off "turn key solutions" quickly get out-innovated by the wider ecosystem: nobody talks about or uses Dall-E to any extent anymore. It's all about open models like Flux and Stable Diffusion. {Text/Image/Video}-to-Video is an inadequate modality for creative work anyway, and OpenAI is already behind on pairing other types of input with their models. This is something that the open ecosystem is excelling at. We have perfect syncing to dance choreography, music reactive textures, and character consistency. Sora has none of that and will likely never have those things. > something time-sharing like Sora where you pay a relatively small amount per video. Creators would prefer to run all of this on their own machines rather than pay for hosted SaaS that costs them thousands of dollars. And for those that do prefer SaaS, there are abundant solutions for running hosted Comfy and a constellation of other models as on-demand.
wslh 2y ago
Could it be that text sources are plenty, and more dense than training for videos, and images?
torginus 2y ago
My working theory is that OpenAI is the 'moonshot' kind of company full of super smart researchers who like tackling hard problems, but have no time and effort for things like 'how do we create an UX people actually want to use', which actually requires a ton of painful back-and-forth and thoughtful design work. This is not a problem as long as they do the ChatGPT thing, and sell an API and let others figure out how to build an UX around it, but here they seem to be gunning for creating a boxed product.
- doctorpangloss 2y ago
  Yeah… they have defined the UX that everyone else is copying thus far. So I feel like you are pretty far off the mark.
shadowerm 2y ago
No doubt. I was waiting so long for Sora but Runway already burned me out on AI video. It was fun for a few days but far more limited than I would have ever expected. Maybe Sora 5.0 will be something special. Right now though all these video models are basically shit.
lanthissa 2y ago
I think we're in the snapdragon age of AI for the next little bit, if you were around for early smartphones. Each company would either rush to get a phone out with the new snapdragon chip, or take their time to polish a release and have a better phone late cycle. But the real improvements we're just the chip. Nvidia chips/larger data centers are the chips. the models are the plethora of android phones each generation. That kept going until progress stabilized. Then the best user experience & vertical integration won over chasing chip performance (apple).

kranke155 2y ago

Sora was not really that big of a revolution, it was just catching up with competitors. I would even say in gen video they are behind right now.

pawelduda 2y ago
What is the best model in your opinion right now?
- ElectroNomad 2y ago
  RunwayML
- echelon 2y ago
  HunYuan by Tencent. It's 100% open source too.
- kranke155 2y ago
  There are a lot of them, but Runway seems to have good controls and they are aligned with people who will actually use it - filmmakers and content creators. In terms of image quality. Runway, Luma, and a few of the Chinese models all give "ok" results. I haven't seen anything from Sora to convince me they have done any kind of significant leap. The issue there is alignment. It's cheap for Runway or Luma to continue in this path since it's their only path to profitability, they do nothing else. But for OpenAI, I don't think this is near their top list of priorities. I doubt that they will be able to keep adding features like their competitors. Seems to me like this is the equivalent of a side project for them. edit after watching direct comparison videos, I've changed my mind. Sora is ahead.
- kranke155 2y ago
  UPDATE: After watching direct comparison videos between prompts, I do think now that Sora is ahead. It's not a huge leap but it seems much better at keeping fine details roughly aligned. For anyone who is curious where to find tons of SORA videos, go to reddit r/aivideo
SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
Sora had some sweet cherry picked initial hype videos. That was more impressive than anything we could do at the time. Now, yea, it's questionable if it's on-par let alone better.
- kranke155 2y ago
  Wasn't just cherry picked. The balloon kid video had a VFX team cleaning up the output. They've said that now.

joe_the_user 2y ago

Bad also in the sense once you get over the "boy, it's amazing they can do that", you immediately think "boy, they really shouldn't do that".

Banditoz 2y ago

What are some of the open source video models?

tshaddox 2y ago

What are the leading alternatives? (Open source or otherwise)

elorant 2y ago
MidJourney (commercial), Standard Diffusion XL
- aruametello 2y ago
  > Standard Diffusion XL you probably meant Stable Diffusion XL. (autocorrect victim)
amrrs 2y ago
Minimax (from China) and Kling 1.5 from China. Recently Tencent launched its own. You can see more model samples heee https://youtu.be/bCAV_9O1ioc https://youtu.be/bCAV_9O1ioc
- ztratar 2y ago
  Those look... far worse? What am I missing.
  - amrrs 2y ago
    Exactly I don't know how people are saying SORA is bad. I know there are restrictions with humans. But with the storyboard and other customisations, it's definitely up there!
stuckkeys 2y ago
FLUX
vunderba 2y ago
You have to be specific. What's more important to you? - uncensored output (SD + LoRa) - Overall speed of generation (midjourney) - Image quality (probably midjourney, or an SDXL checkpoint + upscaler) - Prompt adherence (flux, DALL-E 3) EDIT: This is strictly around image generation. The main video competitors are Kling, Hailuo, and Runway.

tom1337 2y ago

Same goes with DALLE. It was cool to try it the first week or so but now the output is so much worse than Midjourney and stable diffusion. For me it can’t even generate straight lines and everything looks comic-ish.

vunderba 2y ago
DALL-E 3 image quality has always been subpar, but its prompt adherence is on par with FLUX. Midjourney has some of the worst prompt adherence, but some of the best image quality.
- CamperBob2 2y ago
  DALL-E 3 image quality was absolutely amazing... for about 3 days. Then they must have panicked, because after that, everything it emitted included that ridiculous telltale orange/blue tint.
amzn-throw 2y ago
To me this is just a simple artifact of size & attention. Another example of this is stuff like Bluesky. There's a lot of reasons to hate Twitter/X, but people going "Wow, Bluesky is so amazing, there's no ads and it's so much less toxic!" aren't complimenting Bluesky, they're just noting that it's smaller, has less attention, and so they don't have ads or the toxic masses YET. GenAI image generation is an obvious vector for all sorts of problems, from copyrighted material, to real life people, to porn, and so on. OpenAI and Google have to be extraordinarily strict about this due to all the attention on them, and so end up locking down artistic expression dramatically. Midjourney and Stable Diffision may have equal stature amongst tech people, but in the public sphere they're unknowns. So they can get away with more risk.
- Liquix 2y ago
  >OpenAI and Google have to be extraordinarily strict Why? Did the inventors of VHS tapes "have to be extraordinarily strict" and bake in safeguards because people might violate copyright laws, make porn, or tape something illegal? Enforcing laws is the responsibility of the legal system. It sets a concerning precedent when companies like OAI would rather lobotomize their flagship products than risk them generating any Wrongthink.

lacoolj 2y ago

If you're going to say something like this, you need to back it up with specific alternatives that provide a better result. Besides just citing your sources, I'm genuinely curious what the best ones are for this so I can see the competition :)

echelon 2y ago
HunYuan released by Tencent [1] is much better than Sora. It's 100% open source, is compatible with fine tuning, ComfyUI, control nets, and is receiving lots of active development. That's not the only open video model, either. Lightricks' LTX, Genmo's Mochi, and Black Forest Labs' upcoming models will all be open source video foundation models. Sora is commoditized like Dall-E at this point. Video will be dominated by players like Flux and Stable Diffusion. [1] https://github.com/Tencent/HunyuanVideo/ https://github.com/Tencent/HunyuanVideo/
- vlovich123 2y ago
  Something being available OSS is very different from a turnkey product solution, not to mention that Tencent's 60 GiB requirement requires a setup with like at least 3-4 GPUs which is quite rare & fairly expensive vs something time-sharing like Sora where you pay a relatively small amount per video. I think the important thing is task quality and I haven't seen any evaluations of that yet.
  - echelon 2y ago
    > Something being available OSS is very different from a turnkey product solution, not to mention that Tencent's 60 GiB requirement requires a setup with like at least 3-4 GPUs which is quite rare & fairly expensive vs something time-sharing like Sora where you pay a relatively small amount per video. It took two weeks to go from Mochi running on 8xH100s to running on 3090s. I don't think you appreciate the rapidity at which open source moves in this space. HunYuan landed less than one week ago with just one modality (text-to-video), and it's already got LoRA training and fine tuning code, Comfy nodes, and control nets. Their roadmap is technically impressive and has many more control levers in scope. I don't think you realize how "commodity" these models are and how closed off "turn key solutions" quickly get out-innovated by the wider ecosystem: nobody talks about or uses Dall-E to any extent anymore. It's all about open models like Flux and Stable Diffusion. {Text/Image/Video}-to-Video is an inadequate modality for creative work anyway, and OpenAI is already behind on pairing other types of input with their models. This is something that the open ecosystem is excelling at. We have perfect syncing to dance choreography, music reactive textures, and character consistency. Sora has none of that and will likely never have those things. > something time-sharing like Sora where you pay a relatively small amount per video. Creators would prefer to run all of this on their own machines rather than pay for hosted SaaS that costs them thousands of dollars. And for those that do prefer SaaS, there are abundant solutions for running hosted Comfy and a constellation of other models as on-demand.

wslh 2y ago

Could it be that text sources are plenty, and more dense than training for videos, and images?

torginus 2y ago

My working theory is that OpenAI is the 'moonshot' kind of company full of super smart researchers who like tackling hard problems, but have no time and effort for things like 'how do we create an UX people actually want to use', which actually requires a ton of painful back-and-forth and thoughtful design work. This is not a problem as long as they do the ChatGPT thing, and sell an API and let others figure out how to build an UX around it, but here they seem to be gunning for creating a boxed product.

doctorpangloss 2y ago
Yeah… they have defined the UX that everyone else is copying thus far. So I feel like you are pretty far off the mark.

shadowerm 2y ago

No doubt. I was waiting so long for Sora but Runway already burned me out on AI video. It was fun for a few days but far more limited than I would have ever expected. Maybe Sora 5.0 will be something special. Right now though all these video models are basically shit.

lanthissa 2y ago

I think we're in the snapdragon age of AI for the next little bit, if you were around for early smartphones. Each company would either rush to get a phone out with the new snapdragon chip, or take their time to polish a release and have a better phone late cycle. But the real improvements we're just the chip. Nvidia chips/larger data centers are the chips. the models are the plethora of android phones each generation. That kept going until progress stabilized. Then the best user experience & vertical integration won over chasing chip performance (apple).