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The Surreal Magnificence of Fatherhood

178 points by shreyans 2y ago

nickpsecurity 2y ago
That was a great article. It highlights many things I routinely hear in church about how God works through families. They and the books we read talk about how children are a gift that humbles us, starts transforming our character, and teaches us a lot. God uses children in big ways. Recently, we’ve been reading Disciplines of a Godly Man by R. Kent Hughes. Today we’re to discuss the chapter on Fatherhood. I was happy to see the author had learned a few of these lessons. Here’s a few for those interested. Do’s include investing time in them, speaking tenderly, teaching them, setting an example, discipline where necessary, and especially praying for them. If they have Christ, and God intervenes for them, many situations day to day work out better than if left purely to human nature. My friends strongly attest to this with many examples. Don’t included too much criticism (or too little praise), excessive strictness, irritability (esp “been at work all day!”), inconsistency, and favoritism. He gives examples of each hurting relationships between fathers and sons. I thought those were a nice start. Character of Christ, putting the children first (love), and some specific tips. Lastly, we can be calm knowing God is in control of every step of our future. He just expects us to act on what we’ve learned a day at a time. He’ll only let happen what needs to happen for His plan for our lives and our kids’ lives. That’s comforting.
- hiatus 2y ago
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  - nickpsecurity 2y ago
    You’ve brought up important points. Why does suffering exist? How do people face it differently if they know God personally? God intended for us to live forever in a paradise with Him. Instead, people wanted to be their own gods, lie, lust, steal, kidnap, etc. Even if warned, all have sinned and continue to choose evil. Suffering is God’s wrath on sin, often through our own decisions but not always. He wants people to repent whereupon they will eventually see a world restored. (Essentially, everyone who commits evil was the cause of the dead children, etc. A collective responsibility. They won’t stop doing evil either. Not even to save children.) Parent also tell me how the Spirit of God and prayer help. So many situations go better than they would have. That’s by good teaching (character), a disaster avoided by an unlikely event answered in prayer, more calm during it, or increased wisdom on the way out of it. The peace God gives to believers in all circumstances, an inner peace, helps facing chaos and uncertainty. Like sending kids to college knowing God is with them. I interviewed tons of people as a hardcore atheist. I’ve listened to many as a Christian. My friends lost children, had their sisters kidnapped (two murdered), etc. I had PTSD, etc. The difference between how people experience these events in Christ vs on their own is very evident. Also, God’s interventions for those that pray can be huge. Here’s a recent one. A couple I met in a store told me why they appreciate Christ more that week. Their son’s car was smashed into a tree (looked like it was compacted) with driver leaving his body in a ditch to die. A relative, devout Christian, felt an overwhelming urge to take a different road which they thought was from God. They saw his body in a chance event. In the hospital, after more prayer, he had a swollen eye and a rod in his leg instead of dead which the EMT’s said happened to everyone else they saw in that situation. Likewise, my friend whose sisters were kidnapped wasn’t close to Christ. Situation made the news. Two girls were killed. Many people prayed for God to intervene. Between the attacker’s decision and a bystander’s presence, an unlikely tip happened that led police to where the other two were held. That could’ve gone very differently. Two more. Another friend lost her daughter to a hit and run by a texting teenager. While depressing, she’s been highly impactful to others thanks to a strong relationship with Christ. Didn’t go back to hard drugs she had just kicked. Also, love of Christ motivated her to worry about the driver’s emotional health so much she contacted her to counsel her. She and the woman who killed her daughter are on good terms despite the tragedy. In another case, baby Silas was dying in the hospital. Pictures showed him a gray color with holes in his neck. Eyes rolled back in his head. They were praying as a group for him. He’s alive and well today. Better than all of this, our experiences with Christ just point to the greater truth that one day all who believe will be in heaven with Him. There will be no pain. He will wipe away ever tear from every eye. If they were in Christ, we didn’t lose any loved ones cuz we’ll see them again. Even those who sadly weren’t born. :)
    - hiatus 2y ago
      You haven't addressed the secondary point I was making: what does an innocent child have to repent for? What is the purpose of their gruesome death? If it is for the benefit of others, that means some of us are just pawns for the lessons of others. The alternative is that some kids just die through no fault of their own and for no reason at all (which leads to the question: why would an all-knowing, loving god allow that?). Of course, this all ignores the suffering of other life like chickens that through no fault of their own born and die in the same cage without ever seeing the sun. > Suffering is God’s wrath on sin, often through our own decisions but not always. He wants people to repent whereupon they will eventually see a world restored. So a toddler abducted and murdered suffered to repent for what? To teach the parents a lesson? To bring the parents closer to Christ? I have asked this question to many religious teachers and all had answers similar to yours (or hid behind things like "they weren't baptized") and none addressed the core that real, innocent people die horrible deaths from time to time through no fault of their own. Others may learn and grow from the experience but what about the innocent person that died?
      - nickpsecurity 2y ago
        To understand this, you have to start with four components: God’s sovereignty; human’s autonomy with consequences; individual vs group effects; all sin (evil) must be punished. God is sovereign which means He can do what He pleases. He created us to worship Him and love each other. He’s also painting a story of humanity that shows who He is (all attributes), who we are, and how that interacts. We are all part of the story He is telling whether we want to be or not. Christ dying for unworthy, unrepentant people to redeem and adopt them as His children is the climax of His love story. God making us in His image means He makes us autonomous: free agents able to choose good or evil. He also allows the consequences of both. On an eternal level, choosing Christ leads to life while betraying a perfect, everlasting God leads to eternal punishment. On earthly level, our choices impact us, our families, and our societies. God lets most play out with minimal intervention. If His children ask Him (pray), He sometimes intervenes on those same levels to help them. We’re also in it together. God judges our actions as individuals, families, nations, and even humanity as a whole. He blesses obedience and curses disobedience which includes, per Deuteronomy 27-30, both fertility rates and our health. We also see most harms are directly tied to selfish, sinful behavior of humans (consequences of choices). His wrath is often letting our choices hurt us so we or others will learn from it. Ex: My PTSD was caused by others’ sins but my liver problems came from mine. Many health problems are caused by our diets, how we process food, and stressful choices. Our public policies, including financial investments, can help or hurt people. Individually and nationally, we can intervene (or not) to help the helpless or restrain evil. Choices -> consequences. That all of humanity rebels against God, even daily choosing evil, requires a holy God to respond to that. Genesis 3 and 4 said He cursed the Earth with hard labor, childbearing pain, and death itself. People didn’t repent. So, that form of His wrath continues as both justice and tough love to inspire repentance. That’s why children die. They die because everyone opposes God to a degree which forgoes protections, like against natural causes, that are conditional on collective obedience. They die because we poison our environment, our bodies, and so on. They die when people neglect them or kill them, inside and outside the womb. We’re tested where some have conditions that can be treated but we’re too selfish to allocate the resources that way. Then, people mistreat them as adults, too. So, the combo is the moral law of God that rewards/punishes choices, free will means we can earn justice for evil choices, that our choices affect other people, and a holy God always punishes sin somehow. That creates all suffering on the Earth. People also stay evil even when we tell them that which justifies God’s wrath even more. Yet, God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that whoever believes in Him shall never perish but have eternal life. Whoever confessed Jesus is Lord will be saved. He’ll help them transform, too. Repent and choose life. That He offers these things to wicked people, even guaranteeing their salvation by Jesus’ own blood, is the Good News.
- hooverd 2y ago
  As someone who used to work with a children's hospital (on the EMR site but still) I wish we could find and kill the asshole who decided a myriad of childhood cancers was in their grand plan.
  - nickpsecurity 2y ago
    You can save over ten million children from murder if you raise support to ban abortion. Cancer is horrible, too. People following Christ built many hospitals, orphanages, recovery programs, and places like Life Choices Memphis to do what we can for them. You show two, common views: God owes us something; no gratitude. God is a sovereign being who can do what He wants with His creation like you do with your possessions. If we always choose evil, He owes us nothing but wrath. Yet, people expect God of all creation to come down, drop on His knees to kiss their feet, and do an entire list of things to please them and earn their respect. What arrogance! In fact, His lovingkindness and mercies are on everything He’s made. He gives the gift of children to many people, gives medical treatment for cancers that human activities (eg chemicals/food/stress) are likely causing, and all the good things in our lives. Gor protects so many children that there’s almost ten billion people on Earth. So, people show up on Hacker News grateful for all God has given them: children, our daily lives, and even good submissions here. Nope! Maybe you thank Him for protecting billions of lives or motivating tens of billions in charity. Nope! Instead, people act like He doesn’t exist, censor the Gospel in media, curse His name in movies, and accuse Him on HN with no credit for any positive things. God must love us to keep letting us live, healing our kids, etc. While we were still sinners (God’s enemies), Christ died for us so we’d get a second chance. You should repent of the evil in your heart. Once you meet God, you may thank Him for all He does for you instead of curse Him. Especially for the gift of eternal life.
    - vivi_ 2y ago
      Why are you doing this? Friendly reminder that this is HackerNews; nobody is here (nor cares) to read your incoherent, unwelcome religious preach nor to argue religion - at all. That is not the topic of the article, there is nothing to do with religion in the article yet you feel it is your duty to solicit your irrelevant and frankly offensive religious beliefs onto others. I don't spew atheist thought unto christianforums.com - though if I did I'm certain there would be be pitchforks, unchallenged hypocrisy is one of religions most potent weapons. Also, I'm assuming you do not possess the physical configuration to give birth to a child so lay hands off her body, it's not your f*cking life. If you are indeed capable of birthing a child, forgive me - I hear y'all good at that. One last question: is your zealotry the reason behind your lobste.rs ban last year by pushcx? > Even supposedly friendly bigotry is unwelcome. Maybe don't pray on us, cool? Thanks! edit: spelling
- lwhalen 2y ago
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  - mistermann 2y ago
    There is substantial irony in your comment fyi.
    - lwhalen 2y ago
      do tell?
      - mistermann 2y ago
        [flagged]
        lwhalen 2y ago
        [flagged]
        throw10920 2y ago
        > Wait, what am I going to be saved from, you say? Oh, what sky-daddy will do to me if I DON'T love, honor, obey, and tithe him, etc. You need to take a look at the HN guidelines because you have very clearly not read them. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        mistermann 2y ago
        I am perfectly fine with it. The HN (and other "intellectual" online spaces) guidelines are a big part of The Problem.
        throw10920 2y ago
        > The HN (and other "intellectual" online spaces) guidelines are a big part of The Problem. I would argue that, as far as "intellectual online spaces" go (e.g. LessWrong, less memey subreddits), HN has one of the best sets of rules that are the most consistently enforced. But you probably have something specific that you mean by The Problem that I'm not anticipating. Could you elaborate?
- aliasxneo 2y ago
  I was gonna say you must be new to HN, but it appears you’re not. I assumed the anti-Christian sentiment had finally driven most Christians away from here.
  - genghisjahn 2y ago
    I’ve been here for a bit and I’m a Christian. Pain and suffering are difficult to rationalize with the whole “God only gives you want you can handle stuff.” It’s not comforting. Bad things happen to Christians all the time. I try to ease suffering no matter who it happens to. It does help me to remember that Jesus suffered too. I’d say more but my son is saying “play with me” over and over. Take care ya’ll.
- anonu 2y ago
  I think your comment is additive to the conversation, despite it not agreeing with the core HN cohort. Not worth downvoting IMO.
- isoprophlex 2y ago
  If you want to prosetylize, go hand out flyers in a shopping mall or whatever...
  - mistermann 2y ago
    Do the HN guidelines explicitly outlaw proselytization of specific metaphysical frameworks? Because there is more than one person engaged in the activity.
nazghoul 2y ago
Good read. I really liked the line about soliciting advice from second time parents. Also: “We all came out like this. This is how it has always happened. Insane.“ … I was a C-section :P
- DoingIsLearning 2y ago
  Well, there are Persian texts talking about c-sections more than 3 millenia old. So I guess if you adjust your timeline you can argue C-sections are also "how it has always happened" for some of us.
- flpm 2y ago
  As a second time parent, looking back now, that is such a good advice. On the first play-through we second guessed ourselves so much. On the second time, we knew where all the good loot was hidden. :) we felt so much more in control. The truth is that a lot of details first-time parents try to control don't really matter that much or cannot really be controlled.
  - xandrius 2y ago
    What are these details? I'm curious to know what to focus on and what not to.
    - dgfitz 2y ago
      Sometimes when they have a temper tantrum (at home) it’s ok to let them scream for 5 minutes. Usually when they realize you don’t care they start to calm down. Letting a baby fuss in their crib for 5-10 minutes won’t kill them if you need to take a shit. Start feeding them more than just milk/formula at 6-8 months. They’re going to fall and hurt themselves a lot, kids bounce. Kids feel your energy and reflect it like a mirror, and they hear fucking EVERYTHING you say when when you don’t see them. Saying “no” is a good thing, kids actually crave structure, and rules create structure. And tantrums, see first point. Always, always, always follow through. If you say “throw that again and I’m taking it” and you don’t take it, you’re setting yourself up for more testing of boundaries. Also, don’t make a threat you don’t mean. I could probably write a book, if this was helpful I can keep going.
dannyfreeman 2y ago
What a beautiful post. I've always had a difficult time explaining how having a child has fundamentally changed who I am to people who don't have kids. This captures some of that well. Thank you for sharing!!
- mattgreenrocks 2y ago
  It’s difficult to relate even to parents. But some days honestly feel like Christmas did when I was a kid, with all the potentiality. And the bad days have a sense of endless responsibility that can feel overwhelming. My life in my 20s had too little meaning. Now, in my 40s, sometimes it feels like too much. I much prefer it to how it used to be, though.
mpbart 2y ago
As a fellow first-time parent with a 1 month old at home this captured a lot of feelings that I’ve experienced recently. Thanks for taking the time to write such a thoughtful article
mr_mitm 2y ago
Is it like this for everyone? I sometimes wonder how large the number of cases is where the parent does not feel like that at all but refrains from sharing it due to societal expectations and fear of being judged. It would introduce a bias regarding these stories.
- tafka 2y ago
  No. I for one am probably heading down the divorce path that the article speaks of (14mo child)
  - A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
    If you can hold out for another 18 months, it'll get much better. In the meantime, if your means allow it, nannies and au pairs can be a huge help. I'd even advise you to hire a full-timer. (You might even want to consider moving to a country where this is cheaper and more easily possible.) There ought to be no shame in it.
  - thuanao 2y ago
    I don’t know your situation but for me everything changed once my child could speak and started going to preschool (so I got a break). The fall-in-love-with-child phenomenon didn’t happen to me until my child was around 3-1/2
  - orzig 2y ago
    There are ways to throw money at the stress you are feeling, which will still be cheaper than divorce. Children can get much easier as they mature, which might give you space to work through your marriage even if it feels impossible now. I was deeply burned out at the 14 mark with my first child. I did lots of things since then and am much better even after more children.
    - msteffen 2y ago
      Yes, I also found the first child much harder than the second, which I wasn’t expecting. I’m one of those people who had a strong feeling of falling in love with my child right away, but even so the toil and sleep deprivation ground my sanity down to a low I never reached before or since. I was really anxious about #2, but a) we spent some savings and hired much more help for the first year, and b) she just sleeps better than her older brother, which is luck. It’s been incomparably better. To the parent poster, look into a mother’s helper, or even a cleaner who can come daily. We also had to switch to formula earlier than we planned (biology intervened), and that transition had to happen even earlier with #2, and frankly that helped too. I’ve become very pro-formula. Nursing is nice when it’s working, but if it’s not, it’s not worth making a tough year harder—formula has gotten quite good and lets you balance the load better. The breastmilk-IQ link everyone’s scared of isn’t borne out by sibling studies anyway.
RunSet 2y ago
Counterpoint: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36057840/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36057840/
- causal 2y ago
  This is not a counterpoint.
  - isoprophlex 2y ago
    I definitely feel a lot dumber compared to ~8 years and three kids ago. Lack of sleep, lack of agency, continuous need for some background level of vigilance...
    - causal 2y ago
      Oh I'm not arguing that the study is flawed, I'm saying it's not applicable to the point of the post
      - isoprophlex 2y ago
        Haha I even think I love cleaning up their puke because the constant stressors made me dumber.
    - jebarker 2y ago
      Having a kid may have dinged my raw intelligence but the forced ruthless prioritization of what I do and what I value doing has actually made me more competent at home and work
      - isoprophlex 2y ago
        Agreed 100%, my bullshit tolerance has gone to zero. You want to bikeshed this backlog shit we'll probably never get around to doing? Without me yo, I'm out.
    - mberning 2y ago
erulabs 2y ago
Nice post, new babies are really magical. There are so many more transformations coming! Now that I have two, one of them coming up on age 4, so many new things make sense. You don’t immediately get the sense of the father/son discipline dynamic when they’re infants. You watch someone go from “perfect” to perfectly human. A little angel to a little man. The first time your child hurts someone: that’s when fatherhood shifts into gear. > And after a few minutes passed I started to...think Gosh I miss the first-baby newborn phase! Thinking time is dramatically cut in little-kid phase; but hey, tricycles and legos and Playdough! You’re in it now friend! Keep writing and hang in there, it’s a life-long occupation!
binary132 2y ago
Fatherhood transforms men. Becoming a father was by far the most transformative event of my entire life so far. This is the common refrain I’ve heard. Of course, you also have to live up to the vocation.
- epicureanideal 2y ago
  Divorce, child support, alimony, and two weekends of time with your kids per month (what the majority of men end up with), can also be transformative! If anyone reading this is thinking about having kids, be really careful who you have them with.
  - utopicwork 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - borski 2y ago
    It is obviously extremely important who you choose to have children with. I completely agree. If I’d had kids in my 20s with my ex, I would have ended up with regrets for the rest of my life (not the kids, but my choice of with whom to have them). If I have kids now, there’s no chance I’d have regrets. It’s a very different timeline in my life, being in a non-abusive relationship after 8 years of being in one and lots of therapy. And yes, men can be in abusive relationships with women too.
    - jajko 2y ago
      I've been in such relationship once, albeit only few months. Took me few years to recover fully but it was a lifelong wakeup lesson and I started properly looking into psychology. Afterwards, no mysteries in the opposite camp anymore and straight to my wife now. How to handle various relationships and personalities should be mandatory psychology 101 somewhere around beginning of high school. It would make whole mankind behave a bit better overall, no doubt there. The problem with your comment is, kids are by far the biggest stressor in marriages. Wonderfully working, fully matching couples are pushed sometimes to their limits and beautiful relationships become just surviving hardships next to each other. You can't fully know how the opposite will handle this, even under good circumstances, god forbid something ain't right (like post natal health issues in kid or mother), even when trying to use psychology a bit. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails in myriad ways. You could have felt your ex was the one for life while pro creating, thats happening during (brutally) easy times.
parpfish 2y ago
Reading this just re-confirmed to me that I’m not cut out for parenting. I’m glad he’s digging it, but my reaction to all of the little miracles he described was either rolling my eyes or thinking “that sounds terrible”.
- lproven 2y ago
  I was exactly the same. Until it happened to me.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
youoy 2y ago
I love this one: > My mother came in with a great tip: when in doubt, ask second time parents, not other first timers. So true in so many levels.
- hammock 2y ago
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  - jygfethvdu 2y ago
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- kazinator 2y ago
  Even if the other first timer is years ahead of you in parenting because they have an older child, whereas you have a newborn, they just don't remember the newborn stage anymore, and only went through it once. It is all a distant blur to them.
llm_nerd 2y ago
I have four children. I have never regretted it or wished for a different path. I know it isn't for everyone, but it absolutely was and is for me. At the same time I do think articles like this should be countered with the reality that many fathers aren't overwhelmed with waves of love or "surreal magnificence". With each of my children being born the primary emotions I could point to were dread and anxiety. The sudden overwhelming obligation to provide care, comfort and security for such a vulnerable human for decades encompasses your being. One of the reasons birthrates have plummeted in the West, and sentiments about having children have dropped, is that we have no "village", so to speak. Having children is not only an astronomical expense -- every single element of life is dramatically more expensive, made much worse with the housing crisis occurring in many Western nations -- a couple is often entirely on their own. There are no respites or breaks. And as children get viewed as a selfish luxury, the social norms for what a parent needs to do to be proper climb ever higher.
- apwell23 2y ago
  > One of the reasons birthrates have plummeted in the West, and sentiments about having children have dropped, is that we have no "village", so to speak. It probably true but even the well of who can afford to buy the village aren't having kids. I think it has more to do with 1. cultural acceptance and lack of strict cultural pressure to have kids. Its unimaginable in India to not have kids by choice. Its not a choice at all unless you want to be pariah. 2. Availability of affordable widespread recreation that will keep you occupied. Affordability of lots of on demand TV, dining out, live music, internet, hobbies, travel ect.
  - jebarker 2y ago
    I also think we've become more self-obsessed and the idea that we might need to sacrifice time spent on ourselves scares us.
- zemvpferreira 2y ago
  I’m 40, rich, coupled, live next door to my parents and close to my inlaws, have plenty of free time. I have no kids and no desire to have kids. My girlfriend is the same and plenty of our friends too. I’m very happy for people who have children and love them to bits, but many of just don’t want to.
jacknews 2y ago
"there's a part of me somewhere else." This. Although I'm not sure this merits my quote book. I would phrase it as "there's a big part of me that's someone else" maybe.
anonu 2y ago
Ah, the beauty of hormones and how they effect your perception of life and love. My experience resonates with the authors. But certainly the experience ranges dramatically for different people under different life circumstances.
hipadev23 2y ago
why is this flagged? how do we vouch for a submission
- Rendello 2y ago
  It appears you can only vouch for [dead] submissions: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html
- borski 2y ago
  I just sent an email to hn@ycombinator.com in hopes ‘dang fixes it.
  - borski 2y ago
    He fixed it, fyi.
  - hipadev23 2y ago
    Thanks to you (and dang) for doing that.
saas_startup 2y ago
There is a high societal expectation that fatherhood (or motherhood) should look like the one in this article. Having had 2 babies in the last 5 years and observing most of our friends going through parenthood in the last 5+ years I think this is a very biased view that does not reflect reality. My sample might be a bit biased as most our friends are PhD educated and in Tech or Academia. My own observations: - I was not terribly interested in our kids between ages of 0 - 2. This does not mean I did not fully participate in their life, but this was a muscle I had to exercise. I went to therapy as I thought I was somehow broken because thats not how people should feel. What I learned is that feelings are much more common than it is widely accepted. - Once they started to speak, ask questions, and being more emotionally regulated it became very different. At this point I spend more time with my kids than my wife and generally love spending time with them, its almost effortless. Explaining things, buildings legos, became one of my favourite activities. - Having daily help (live in nanny, live in grandparents) is an enormous help both from kids and relationship perspective. Seems like a trivial thing but if you do not have live in help you are likely to never be alone again as a couple for more than 24h (i.e. you can't go on a short trip). Observations about my friends: - Trying for a baby and being unsuccessful for years or going through multiple miscarriages can make couples extremely sad. You can reduce this risk by trying early. - If your mental health is not amazing before kids it is likely get worse. This is about functional people that have mild mental health problems. Two of our friends developed severe mental health problems that in one case ended in a divorce and in second case multiple years of unemployment (father who was not primary care giver). This were generally reasonable people that sought mental health help from both therapy and medicine perspective. - The societal expectations that women should be super excited about motherhood is not always true. Within our friends group probably 50% women are less involved in raising their kids than fathers. Some (reluctantly) admitted that they don't really like how motherhood negatively affected their job prospects, bodies and mental health. - If you do happen to get divorce with young kids it is likely going to be a life changing event. Situation has to be pretty bad to get divorce with young kids so most likely you will be better off but from the two cases we have seen this typically means severe financial burden and inability to sustain long term relationship afterwards. If you are a women and somehow loose custody there is also going to be pretty severe societal judgement against you even in very progressive locations. It may sound as a little bit depressing view of parenthood but this is more reality check for those reading only the bright side. Overall, I am extremely happy we have kids and our relationship is stronger than it was before but thats not the case for everyone and it required work.
MrHamburger 2y ago
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- deleted 2y ago
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shakes07 2y ago
“Finding babies funny is probably a useful survival mechanism for an overworked parent.” Currently in week 5 of my own journey with my child, and the above is basically how you have to perceive things as you push through this early phase. Beautiful read, and looking forward to appreciating more as I’m less sleep deprived.
Simon_ORourke 2y ago
It's f*cking hard work, for those in any doubt. It's the most difficult web server config file you've ever to edit at 4am to resolve some production outage, for years, without any hope of let up. Is it rewarding, yes, but it's a duty and there's no backup or timeout, you get to experience this 24/7 for at least a few year while they're young.
- halfcat 2y ago
  Accurate. There’s this seemingly never ending stream of moments of desperation, where there are no good answers. But also if you asked me, “what led to most of the goodness in your life?”, I’d answer: Moments of desperation
- VMG 2y ago
  counterpoint: it's not you don't have to sift through some indecipherable mountain of information to find a solution you just have to provide some basic mammalian service like provide warmth or food in a first world country it can be stressful but it's actually quite simple
  - wat10000 2y ago
    The early years are a ton of simple work. Later, it becomes incredibly complex and difficult. Try dealing with bad choices, power struggles, figuring out and enforcing rules.... Now try it as a typical techie person who has trouble engaging with things they don’t enjoy and doesn’t understand people. Sifting through an indecipherable mountain of information is fun. I’ll do it in my spare time. My reaction to some ridiculous bug report is, hell yeah, let’s go. The hardest stuff in my life has nothing to do with computers and it’s not even remotely close.
jonstewart 2y ago
It’s surreal, for sure, but I would like the drugs this guy is on. I can’t wait till they’re off to college when I’m 58 and I can program full bore again.
tomcam 2y ago
I still feel that way. My kids are well into their third decades.
lproven 2y ago
I enjoyed this. I became a father after 51 years of avoiding it and avoiding children. It has changed my life and enriched it in ways I could not have imagined before. I monitored myself and my internal state as closely as I am able from learning that my partner was pregant until a few months after the birth. I could not detect the slightest difference in my mind, but I have gone from strongly disliking children to being a loving dad who enjoys being around kids. I am really enjoying it. It feels like a whole section of my biological programming has been unlocked and while I couldn't feel it happening, I am now a different person, and a happier one too. It has been the most life-altering experience I've ever had, and I've nearly died, I've had skeletal surgery while awake, and more.
nachox999 2y ago
"Do you remember falling in love for the first time? Fatherhood feels like this." That's EXACTLY what I felt when my daugther was born
mdip 2y ago
I have to say that nothing in my life compared to having children. I have a 15 and a 17-year-old, today. I think the biggest factor was the shift in self-preservation instinct. Before my son was born, I had "believed" that I'd be the kind of guy who -- barring alternatives -- would jump in front of a bullet, sacrificing my own life to save my child. But I'd been on Earth for 29 years at that point and during that time, one of the things that's sort of wired into you is "avoid, at all costs, the path of projectiles fired from guns." Though I recognized that this sort of thing doesn't happen to the vast majority of people in my position, I'd wondered whether or not that instinct might kick in should that occasion ever occur. Shortly after my son was born, after the haze of sleepless nights ended, I realized something -- really, everything -- had changed. Replaying that scenario in my head, I no longer worried at all about how I'd react. I knew that there would be no scenario, ever again, where my safety would take precedence over that of my son (and later, my daughter). It wasn't the complexity of knowing I would have an impossible time living with myself if I survived and my son had died; it was like my brain had rewired a new instinct. And as any parent with children of sufficient age has probably experienced, it was tested time and again, though thankfully in much less serious ways. I remember teaching my daughter to ice skate at age 5 and upon watching her lose her balance, watching as my body lurched forward and dove under her, clumsily catching her and breaking her fall. "Watching" is the way I describe it because I don't remember ever having a thought in advance of doing it nor any control over my body once it had made the inevitable choice. There was no planning, no strategy, no honest understanding that a guy who'd never slid into first base, dove to catch a football or been skilled in any way when it came to sports along with not being particularly good in a pair of hockey skates[0] had a greater chance of injuring myself in the fall than my daughter had of injuring herself in five layers of padded cloth falling a couple of feet to the ground. I remember the moment I'd "saved her" in triumph and the subsequent feeling of defeat during the hours spent in the ER diagnosing my fracture rib. I often compare the kind of parent I thought I would be against the kind of parent I ultimately became. I had put off having kids mostly due to my sister-in-law's 4-year-old terror (who turned out just fine). I would be the strong, stern Dad who didn't let their child misbehave. I would temper this by being the loving, affectionate Dad that my own was. And while I became the latter, I quickly realized how much more effective it is to call out and encourage the good behavior. I learned to have "sit downs" and discuss the bad behavior but to be gracious with it. I understood how poorly I reacted to negativity as a child and how discouraging that was to my success when I saw my son respond like I did. Somehow, through a divorce and ensuing turmoil in my own life, I managed to end up with two teenage children who love nothing more than to spend time with Dad. We have a less-than-perfect parenting time schedule that the laws in my state make impossible for me to change (despite my flexible schedule and my children's desires) but my kids would rather schedule friend time on Mom's clock and invite friends out with us on my time. My kids both call me every day after school and we talk, sometimes for hours. We play Fortnite five out of seven nights an evening -- a game I'd be unlikely to touch without them[1] but one I'm thankful that we "play on the same team" and use mostly for talking to one another over twelve miles. I realized that up until about age 12, I could read their minds and understood them better than they knew themselves. Sometime in their teen years, I discovered that -- in some ways -- they are more brave, more honest and better children than I ever was at my best. I remember thinking "I'm not going to push programming on them" because I really respected the fact that my Dad didn't push what he did on me -- he wasn't a programmer, but he supported my second love as if it were his own. And I remember how proud I was when my daughter signed up for programming class in 8th grade and yelled at me when I suggested she might enjoy "art" (her passion and offered at the same time) more "I'm NOT doing this for YOU, Dad!" That's my girl. I think the biggest adjustment, though, is realizing that they are the entire reason I'm here. Every single thing I do comes with the question: "How does this affect them?" I might have looked at a man who behaved that way and thought "that's the kind of Dad I want to be" but I know there's nothing special about that with me -- it was a re-wiring. I fear my own death only in that I know how it would affect them were it to come suddenly in their young lives. I, like most boys raised by stereo-typical "Family Ties" or "The Cosby Show" parents learned "men don't cry" and rarely had the temptation to do so until after they were born. Last month, "The Remarkable Life of Ibelin" was released and I made it a point to get through it alone before watching it with my kids. I sobbed -- and I mean ugly cried -- through the whole thing sitting alone in my bedroom. I didn't do much better the second time with my kids[2]. I'm blessed that I've never lost my composure over my own life and its struggles but I can imagine how devastating and permanent losing one of my children would be. I thought I had a pretty good idea of what it would be like to have kids, I thought I had a lot figured out before I had them. There are few things I had more wrong in my life. Maybe it's possible for some to accurately imagine/prepare for the experience but I had absolutely no idea. I didn't have the arrogance to pray for the kind of teenagers I raised. My son and daughter both share so much of my brain, the way I process things and the like but they use it differently. When people say "your kids teach you as much as you teach them", that's what they mean. You watch your own struggles get adapted to differently, quite often better, than you did. My son processes things with deep empathy. My daughter errs toward logic and reasoned argument. More than a few occasions, I'm stuck thinking "dammit, they're right" and find myself demonstrating the act of apologizing. That's a humbling experience. [0] This was a wet indoor rink and though I could handle myself OK on outdoor lake ice and was very proficient with inlines on cement or gravel. [1] My gaming days are behind me, frankly. [2] My Dad, who was -- in every way -- a stereotypical "He-Man" is exactly the same way.
uhtred 2y ago
This is like LinkedIn content not hackernews.
Def_Os 2y ago
Well written, and very recognizable. I felt pretty much the same as the author at the time of my firstborn. The second kid's birth I don't even remember, haha. I can say that 8 years later the love for the children and my partner has only deepened. Family life is unrelenting and exhausting at times, but I'm one of the lucky ones with a fabulous partner and healthy, smart and fun kids-- until the teenage years change the picture all over again, maybe?

178 points by shreyans 2y ago

That was a great article. It highlights many things I routinely hear in church about how God works through families. They and the books we read talk about how children are a gift that humbles us, starts transforming our character, and teaches us a lot. God uses children in big ways. Recently, we’ve been reading Disciplines of a Godly Man by R. Kent Hughes. Today we’re to discuss the chapter on Fatherhood. I was happy to see the author had learned a few of these lessons. Here’s a few for those interested. Do’s include investing time in them, speaking tenderly, teaching them, setting an example, discipline where necessary, and especially praying for them. If they have Christ, and God intervenes for them, many situations day to day work out better than if left purely to human nature. My friends strongly attest to this with many examples. Don’t included too much criticism (or too little praise), excessive strictness, irritability (esp “been at work all day!”), inconsistency, and favoritism. He gives examples of each hurting relationships between fathers and sons. I thought those were a nice start. Character of Christ, putting the children first (love), and some specific tips. Lastly, we can be calm knowing God is in control of every step of our future. He just expects us to act on what we’ve learned a day at a time. He’ll only let happen what needs to happen for His plan for our lives and our kids’ lives. That’s comforting.

hiatus 2y ago
[flagged]
- nickpsecurity 2y ago
  You’ve brought up important points. Why does suffering exist? How do people face it differently if they know God personally? God intended for us to live forever in a paradise with Him. Instead, people wanted to be their own gods, lie, lust, steal, kidnap, etc. Even if warned, all have sinned and continue to choose evil. Suffering is God’s wrath on sin, often through our own decisions but not always. He wants people to repent whereupon they will eventually see a world restored. (Essentially, everyone who commits evil was the cause of the dead children, etc. A collective responsibility. They won’t stop doing evil either. Not even to save children.) Parent also tell me how the Spirit of God and prayer help. So many situations go better than they would have. That’s by good teaching (character), a disaster avoided by an unlikely event answered in prayer, more calm during it, or increased wisdom on the way out of it. The peace God gives to believers in all circumstances, an inner peace, helps facing chaos and uncertainty. Like sending kids to college knowing God is with them. I interviewed tons of people as a hardcore atheist. I’ve listened to many as a Christian. My friends lost children, had their sisters kidnapped (two murdered), etc. I had PTSD, etc. The difference between how people experience these events in Christ vs on their own is very evident. Also, God’s interventions for those that pray can be huge. Here’s a recent one. A couple I met in a store told me why they appreciate Christ more that week. Their son’s car was smashed into a tree (looked like it was compacted) with driver leaving his body in a ditch to die. A relative, devout Christian, felt an overwhelming urge to take a different road which they thought was from God. They saw his body in a chance event. In the hospital, after more prayer, he had a swollen eye and a rod in his leg instead of dead which the EMT’s said happened to everyone else they saw in that situation. Likewise, my friend whose sisters were kidnapped wasn’t close to Christ. Situation made the news. Two girls were killed. Many people prayed for God to intervene. Between the attacker’s decision and a bystander’s presence, an unlikely tip happened that led police to where the other two were held. That could’ve gone very differently. Two more. Another friend lost her daughter to a hit and run by a texting teenager. While depressing, she’s been highly impactful to others thanks to a strong relationship with Christ. Didn’t go back to hard drugs she had just kicked. Also, love of Christ motivated her to worry about the driver’s emotional health so much she contacted her to counsel her. She and the woman who killed her daughter are on good terms despite the tragedy. In another case, baby Silas was dying in the hospital. Pictures showed him a gray color with holes in his neck. Eyes rolled back in his head. They were praying as a group for him. He’s alive and well today. Better than all of this, our experiences with Christ just point to the greater truth that one day all who believe will be in heaven with Him. There will be no pain. He will wipe away ever tear from every eye. If they were in Christ, we didn’t lose any loved ones cuz we’ll see them again. Even those who sadly weren’t born. :)
  - hiatus 2y ago
    You haven't addressed the secondary point I was making: what does an innocent child have to repent for? What is the purpose of their gruesome death? If it is for the benefit of others, that means some of us are just pawns for the lessons of others. The alternative is that some kids just die through no fault of their own and for no reason at all (which leads to the question: why would an all-knowing, loving god allow that?). Of course, this all ignores the suffering of other life like chickens that through no fault of their own born and die in the same cage without ever seeing the sun. > Suffering is God’s wrath on sin, often through our own decisions but not always. He wants people to repent whereupon they will eventually see a world restored. So a toddler abducted and murdered suffered to repent for what? To teach the parents a lesson? To bring the parents closer to Christ? I have asked this question to many religious teachers and all had answers similar to yours (or hid behind things like "they weren't baptized") and none addressed the core that real, innocent people die horrible deaths from time to time through no fault of their own. Others may learn and grow from the experience but what about the innocent person that died?
    - nickpsecurity 2y ago
      To understand this, you have to start with four components: God’s sovereignty; human’s autonomy with consequences; individual vs group effects; all sin (evil) must be punished. God is sovereign which means He can do what He pleases. He created us to worship Him and love each other. He’s also painting a story of humanity that shows who He is (all attributes), who we are, and how that interacts. We are all part of the story He is telling whether we want to be or not. Christ dying for unworthy, unrepentant people to redeem and adopt them as His children is the climax of His love story. God making us in His image means He makes us autonomous: free agents able to choose good or evil. He also allows the consequences of both. On an eternal level, choosing Christ leads to life while betraying a perfect, everlasting God leads to eternal punishment. On earthly level, our choices impact us, our families, and our societies. God lets most play out with minimal intervention. If His children ask Him (pray), He sometimes intervenes on those same levels to help them. We’re also in it together. God judges our actions as individuals, families, nations, and even humanity as a whole. He blesses obedience and curses disobedience which includes, per Deuteronomy 27-30, both fertility rates and our health. We also see most harms are directly tied to selfish, sinful behavior of humans (consequences of choices). His wrath is often letting our choices hurt us so we or others will learn from it. Ex: My PTSD was caused by others’ sins but my liver problems came from mine. Many health problems are caused by our diets, how we process food, and stressful choices. Our public policies, including financial investments, can help or hurt people. Individually and nationally, we can intervene (or not) to help the helpless or restrain evil. Choices -> consequences. That all of humanity rebels against God, even daily choosing evil, requires a holy God to respond to that. Genesis 3 and 4 said He cursed the Earth with hard labor, childbearing pain, and death itself. People didn’t repent. So, that form of His wrath continues as both justice and tough love to inspire repentance. That’s why children die. They die because everyone opposes God to a degree which forgoes protections, like against natural causes, that are conditional on collective obedience. They die because we poison our environment, our bodies, and so on. They die when people neglect them or kill them, inside and outside the womb. We’re tested where some have conditions that can be treated but we’re too selfish to allocate the resources that way. Then, people mistreat them as adults, too. So, the combo is the moral law of God that rewards/punishes choices, free will means we can earn justice for evil choices, that our choices affect other people, and a holy God always punishes sin somehow. That creates all suffering on the Earth. People also stay evil even when we tell them that which justifies God’s wrath even more. Yet, God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that whoever believes in Him shall never perish but have eternal life. Whoever confessed Jesus is Lord will be saved. He’ll help them transform, too. Repent and choose life. That He offers these things to wicked people, even guaranteeing their salvation by Jesus’ own blood, is the Good News.
hooverd 2y ago
As someone who used to work with a children's hospital (on the EMR site but still) I wish we could find and kill the asshole who decided a myriad of childhood cancers was in their grand plan.
- nickpsecurity 2y ago
  You can save over ten million children from murder if you raise support to ban abortion. Cancer is horrible, too. People following Christ built many hospitals, orphanages, recovery programs, and places like Life Choices Memphis to do what we can for them. You show two, common views: God owes us something; no gratitude. God is a sovereign being who can do what He wants with His creation like you do with your possessions. If we always choose evil, He owes us nothing but wrath. Yet, people expect God of all creation to come down, drop on His knees to kiss their feet, and do an entire list of things to please them and earn their respect. What arrogance! In fact, His lovingkindness and mercies are on everything He’s made. He gives the gift of children to many people, gives medical treatment for cancers that human activities (eg chemicals/food/stress) are likely causing, and all the good things in our lives. Gor protects so many children that there’s almost ten billion people on Earth. So, people show up on Hacker News grateful for all God has given them: children, our daily lives, and even good submissions here. Nope! Maybe you thank Him for protecting billions of lives or motivating tens of billions in charity. Nope! Instead, people act like He doesn’t exist, censor the Gospel in media, curse His name in movies, and accuse Him on HN with no credit for any positive things. God must love us to keep letting us live, healing our kids, etc. While we were still sinners (God’s enemies), Christ died for us so we’d get a second chance. You should repent of the evil in your heart. Once you meet God, you may thank Him for all He does for you instead of curse Him. Especially for the gift of eternal life.
  - vivi_ 2y ago
    Why are you doing this? Friendly reminder that this is HackerNews; nobody is here (nor cares) to read your incoherent, unwelcome religious preach nor to argue religion - at all. That is not the topic of the article, there is nothing to do with religion in the article yet you feel it is your duty to solicit your irrelevant and frankly offensive religious beliefs onto others. I don't spew atheist thought unto christianforums.com - though if I did I'm certain there would be be pitchforks, unchallenged hypocrisy is one of religions most potent weapons. Also, I'm assuming you do not possess the physical configuration to give birth to a child so lay hands off her body, it's not your f*cking life. If you are indeed capable of birthing a child, forgive me - I hear y'all good at that. One last question: is your zealotry the reason behind your lobste.rs ban last year by pushcx? > Even supposedly friendly bigotry is unwelcome. Maybe don't pray on us, cool? Thanks! edit: spelling
lwhalen 2y ago
[flagged]
- mistermann 2y ago
  There is substantial irony in your comment fyi.
  - lwhalen 2y ago
    do tell?
    - mistermann 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - lwhalen 2y ago
        [flagged]
        throw10920 2y ago
        > Wait, what am I going to be saved from, you say? Oh, what sky-daddy will do to me if I DON'T love, honor, obey, and tithe him, etc. You need to take a look at the HN guidelines because you have very clearly not read them. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        mistermann 2y ago
        I am perfectly fine with it. The HN (and other "intellectual" online spaces) guidelines are a big part of The Problem.
        throw10920 2y ago
        > The HN (and other "intellectual" online spaces) guidelines are a big part of The Problem. I would argue that, as far as "intellectual online spaces" go (e.g. LessWrong, less memey subreddits), HN has one of the best sets of rules that are the most consistently enforced. But you probably have something specific that you mean by The Problem that I'm not anticipating. Could you elaborate?
aliasxneo 2y ago
I was gonna say you must be new to HN, but it appears you’re not. I assumed the anti-Christian sentiment had finally driven most Christians away from here.
- genghisjahn 2y ago
  I’ve been here for a bit and I’m a Christian. Pain and suffering are difficult to rationalize with the whole “God only gives you want you can handle stuff.” It’s not comforting. Bad things happen to Christians all the time. I try to ease suffering no matter who it happens to. It does help me to remember that Jesus suffered too. I’d say more but my son is saying “play with me” over and over. Take care ya’ll.
anonu 2y ago
I think your comment is additive to the conversation, despite it not agreeing with the core HN cohort. Not worth downvoting IMO.
isoprophlex 2y ago
If you want to prosetylize, go hand out flyers in a shopping mall or whatever...
- mistermann 2y ago
  Do the HN guidelines explicitly outlaw proselytization of specific metaphysical frameworks? Because there is more than one person engaged in the activity.

nazghoul 2y ago

Good read. I really liked the line about soliciting advice from second time parents. Also: “We all came out like this. This is how it has always happened. Insane.“ … I was a C-section :P

DoingIsLearning 2y ago
Well, there are Persian texts talking about c-sections more than 3 millenia old. So I guess if you adjust your timeline you can argue C-sections are also "how it has always happened" for some of us.
flpm 2y ago
As a second time parent, looking back now, that is such a good advice. On the first play-through we second guessed ourselves so much. On the second time, we knew where all the good loot was hidden. :) we felt so much more in control. The truth is that a lot of details first-time parents try to control don't really matter that much or cannot really be controlled.
- xandrius 2y ago
  What are these details? I'm curious to know what to focus on and what not to.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    Sometimes when they have a temper tantrum (at home) it’s ok to let them scream for 5 minutes. Usually when they realize you don’t care they start to calm down. Letting a baby fuss in their crib for 5-10 minutes won’t kill them if you need to take a shit. Start feeding them more than just milk/formula at 6-8 months. They’re going to fall and hurt themselves a lot, kids bounce. Kids feel your energy and reflect it like a mirror, and they hear fucking EVERYTHING you say when when you don’t see them. Saying “no” is a good thing, kids actually crave structure, and rules create structure. And tantrums, see first point. Always, always, always follow through. If you say “throw that again and I’m taking it” and you don’t take it, you’re setting yourself up for more testing of boundaries. Also, don’t make a threat you don’t mean. I could probably write a book, if this was helpful I can keep going.

dannyfreeman 2y ago

What a beautiful post. I've always had a difficult time explaining how having a child has fundamentally changed who I am to people who don't have kids. This captures some of that well. Thank you for sharing!!

mattgreenrocks 2y ago
It’s difficult to relate even to parents. But some days honestly feel like Christmas did when I was a kid, with all the potentiality. And the bad days have a sense of endless responsibility that can feel overwhelming. My life in my 20s had too little meaning. Now, in my 40s, sometimes it feels like too much. I much prefer it to how it used to be, though.

mpbart 2y ago

As a fellow first-time parent with a 1 month old at home this captured a lot of feelings that I’ve experienced recently. Thanks for taking the time to write such a thoughtful article

mr_mitm 2y ago

Is it like this for everyone? I sometimes wonder how large the number of cases is where the parent does not feel like that at all but refrains from sharing it due to societal expectations and fear of being judged. It would introduce a bias regarding these stories.

tafka 2y ago
No. I for one am probably heading down the divorce path that the article speaks of (14mo child)
- A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
  If you can hold out for another 18 months, it'll get much better. In the meantime, if your means allow it, nannies and au pairs can be a huge help. I'd even advise you to hire a full-timer. (You might even want to consider moving to a country where this is cheaper and more easily possible.) There ought to be no shame in it.
- thuanao 2y ago
  I don’t know your situation but for me everything changed once my child could speak and started going to preschool (so I got a break). The fall-in-love-with-child phenomenon didn’t happen to me until my child was around 3-1/2
- orzig 2y ago
  There are ways to throw money at the stress you are feeling, which will still be cheaper than divorce. Children can get much easier as they mature, which might give you space to work through your marriage even if it feels impossible now. I was deeply burned out at the 14 mark with my first child. I did lots of things since then and am much better even after more children.
  - msteffen 2y ago
    Yes, I also found the first child much harder than the second, which I wasn’t expecting. I’m one of those people who had a strong feeling of falling in love with my child right away, but even so the toil and sleep deprivation ground my sanity down to a low I never reached before or since. I was really anxious about #2, but a) we spent some savings and hired much more help for the first year, and b) she just sleeps better than her older brother, which is luck. It’s been incomparably better. To the parent poster, look into a mother’s helper, or even a cleaner who can come daily. We also had to switch to formula earlier than we planned (biology intervened), and that transition had to happen even earlier with #2, and frankly that helped too. I’ve become very pro-formula. Nursing is nice when it’s working, but if it’s not, it’s not worth making a tough year harder—formula has gotten quite good and lets you balance the load better. The breastmilk-IQ link everyone’s scared of isn’t borne out by sibling studies anyway.

RunSet 2y ago

Counterpoint: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36057840/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36057840/

causal 2y ago
This is not a counterpoint.
- isoprophlex 2y ago
  I definitely feel a lot dumber compared to ~8 years and three kids ago. Lack of sleep, lack of agency, continuous need for some background level of vigilance...
  - causal 2y ago
    Oh I'm not arguing that the study is flawed, I'm saying it's not applicable to the point of the post
    - isoprophlex 2y ago
      Haha I even think I love cleaning up their puke because the constant stressors made me dumber.
  - jebarker 2y ago
    Having a kid may have dinged my raw intelligence but the forced ruthless prioritization of what I do and what I value doing has actually made me more competent at home and work
    - isoprophlex 2y ago
      Agreed 100%, my bullshit tolerance has gone to zero. You want to bikeshed this backlog shit we'll probably never get around to doing? Without me yo, I'm out.
  - mberning 2y ago

erulabs 2y ago

Nice post, new babies are really magical. There are so many more transformations coming! Now that I have two, one of them coming up on age 4, so many new things make sense. You don’t immediately get the sense of the father/son discipline dynamic when they’re infants. You watch someone go from “perfect” to perfectly human. A little angel to a little man. The first time your child hurts someone: that’s when fatherhood shifts into gear. > And after a few minutes passed I started to...think Gosh I miss the first-baby newborn phase! Thinking time is dramatically cut in little-kid phase; but hey, tricycles and legos and Playdough! You’re in it now friend! Keep writing and hang in there, it’s a life-long occupation!

binary132 2y ago

Fatherhood transforms men. Becoming a father was by far the most transformative event of my entire life so far. This is the common refrain I’ve heard. Of course, you also have to live up to the vocation.

epicureanideal 2y ago
Divorce, child support, alimony, and two weekends of time with your kids per month (what the majority of men end up with), can also be transformative! If anyone reading this is thinking about having kids, be really careful who you have them with.
- utopicwork 2y ago
  [flagged]
- borski 2y ago
  It is obviously extremely important who you choose to have children with. I completely agree. If I’d had kids in my 20s with my ex, I would have ended up with regrets for the rest of my life (not the kids, but my choice of with whom to have them). If I have kids now, there’s no chance I’d have regrets. It’s a very different timeline in my life, being in a non-abusive relationship after 8 years of being in one and lots of therapy. And yes, men can be in abusive relationships with women too.
  - jajko 2y ago
    I've been in such relationship once, albeit only few months. Took me few years to recover fully but it was a lifelong wakeup lesson and I started properly looking into psychology. Afterwards, no mysteries in the opposite camp anymore and straight to my wife now. How to handle various relationships and personalities should be mandatory psychology 101 somewhere around beginning of high school. It would make whole mankind behave a bit better overall, no doubt there. The problem with your comment is, kids are by far the biggest stressor in marriages. Wonderfully working, fully matching couples are pushed sometimes to their limits and beautiful relationships become just surviving hardships next to each other. You can't fully know how the opposite will handle this, even under good circumstances, god forbid something ain't right (like post natal health issues in kid or mother), even when trying to use psychology a bit. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails in myriad ways. You could have felt your ex was the one for life while pro creating, thats happening during (brutally) easy times.

parpfish 2y ago

Reading this just re-confirmed to me that I’m not cut out for parenting. I’m glad he’s digging it, but my reaction to all of the little miracles he described was either rolling my eyes or thinking “that sounds terrible”.

lproven 2y ago
I was exactly the same. Until it happened to me.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

youoy 2y ago

I love this one: > My mother came in with a great tip: when in doubt, ask second time parents, not other first timers. So true in so many levels.

hammock 2y ago
[flagged]
- jygfethvdu 2y ago
  [flagged]
kazinator 2y ago
Even if the other first timer is years ahead of you in parenting because they have an older child, whereas you have a newborn, they just don't remember the newborn stage anymore, and only went through it once. It is all a distant blur to them.

llm_nerd 2y ago

I have four children. I have never regretted it or wished for a different path. I know it isn't for everyone, but it absolutely was and is for me. At the same time I do think articles like this should be countered with the reality that many fathers aren't overwhelmed with waves of love or "surreal magnificence". With each of my children being born the primary emotions I could point to were dread and anxiety. The sudden overwhelming obligation to provide care, comfort and security for such a vulnerable human for decades encompasses your being. One of the reasons birthrates have plummeted in the West, and sentiments about having children have dropped, is that we have no "village", so to speak. Having children is not only an astronomical expense -- every single element of life is dramatically more expensive, made much worse with the housing crisis occurring in many Western nations -- a couple is often entirely on their own. There are no respites or breaks. And as children get viewed as a selfish luxury, the social norms for what a parent needs to do to be proper climb ever higher.

apwell23 2y ago
> One of the reasons birthrates have plummeted in the West, and sentiments about having children have dropped, is that we have no "village", so to speak. It probably true but even the well of who can afford to buy the village aren't having kids. I think it has more to do with 1. cultural acceptance and lack of strict cultural pressure to have kids. Its unimaginable in India to not have kids by choice. Its not a choice at all unless you want to be pariah. 2. Availability of affordable widespread recreation that will keep you occupied. Affordability of lots of on demand TV, dining out, live music, internet, hobbies, travel ect.
- jebarker 2y ago
  I also think we've become more self-obsessed and the idea that we might need to sacrifice time spent on ourselves scares us.
zemvpferreira 2y ago
I’m 40, rich, coupled, live next door to my parents and close to my inlaws, have plenty of free time. I have no kids and no desire to have kids. My girlfriend is the same and plenty of our friends too. I’m very happy for people who have children and love them to bits, but many of just don’t want to.

jacknews 2y ago

"there's a part of me somewhere else." This. Although I'm not sure this merits my quote book. I would phrase it as "there's a big part of me that's someone else" maybe.

anonu 2y ago

Ah, the beauty of hormones and how they effect your perception of life and love. My experience resonates with the authors. But certainly the experience ranges dramatically for different people under different life circumstances.

hipadev23 2y ago

why is this flagged? how do we vouch for a submission

Rendello 2y ago
It appears you can only vouch for [dead] submissions: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html
borski 2y ago
I just sent an email to hn@ycombinator.com in hopes ‘dang fixes it.
- borski 2y ago
  He fixed it, fyi.
- hipadev23 2y ago
  Thanks to you (and dang) for doing that.

saas_startup 2y ago

There is a high societal expectation that fatherhood (or motherhood) should look like the one in this article. Having had 2 babies in the last 5 years and observing most of our friends going through parenthood in the last 5+ years I think this is a very biased view that does not reflect reality. My sample might be a bit biased as most our friends are PhD educated and in Tech or Academia. My own observations: - I was not terribly interested in our kids between ages of 0 - 2. This does not mean I did not fully participate in their life, but this was a muscle I had to exercise. I went to therapy as I thought I was somehow broken because thats not how people should feel. What I learned is that feelings are much more common than it is widely accepted. - Once they started to speak, ask questions, and being more emotionally regulated it became very different. At this point I spend more time with my kids than my wife and generally love spending time with them, its almost effortless. Explaining things, buildings legos, became one of my favourite activities. - Having daily help (live in nanny, live in grandparents) is an enormous help both from kids and relationship perspective. Seems like a trivial thing but if you do not have live in help you are likely to never be alone again as a couple for more than 24h (i.e. you can't go on a short trip). Observations about my friends: - Trying for a baby and being unsuccessful for years or going through multiple miscarriages can make couples extremely sad. You can reduce this risk by trying early. - If your mental health is not amazing before kids it is likely get worse. This is about functional people that have mild mental health problems. Two of our friends developed severe mental health problems that in one case ended in a divorce and in second case multiple years of unemployment (father who was not primary care giver). This were generally reasonable people that sought mental health help from both therapy and medicine perspective. - The societal expectations that women should be super excited about motherhood is not always true. Within our friends group probably 50% women are less involved in raising their kids than fathers. Some (reluctantly) admitted that they don't really like how motherhood negatively affected their job prospects, bodies and mental health. - If you do happen to get divorce with young kids it is likely going to be a life changing event. Situation has to be pretty bad to get divorce with young kids so most likely you will be better off but from the two cases we have seen this typically means severe financial burden and inability to sustain long term relationship afterwards. If you are a women and somehow loose custody there is also going to be pretty severe societal judgement against you even in very progressive locations. It may sound as a little bit depressing view of parenthood but this is more reality check for those reading only the bright side. Overall, I am extremely happy we have kids and our relationship is stronger than it was before but thats not the case for everyone and it required work.

MrHamburger 2y ago

[flagged]

deleted 2y ago
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shakes07 2y ago

“Finding babies funny is probably a useful survival mechanism for an overworked parent.” Currently in week 5 of my own journey with my child, and the above is basically how you have to perceive things as you push through this early phase. Beautiful read, and looking forward to appreciating more as I’m less sleep deprived.

Simon_ORourke 2y ago

It's f*cking hard work, for those in any doubt. It's the most difficult web server config file you've ever to edit at 4am to resolve some production outage, for years, without any hope of let up. Is it rewarding, yes, but it's a duty and there's no backup or timeout, you get to experience this 24/7 for at least a few year while they're young.

halfcat 2y ago
Accurate. There’s this seemingly never ending stream of moments of desperation, where there are no good answers. But also if you asked me, “what led to most of the goodness in your life?”, I’d answer: Moments of desperation
VMG 2y ago
counterpoint: it's not you don't have to sift through some indecipherable mountain of information to find a solution you just have to provide some basic mammalian service like provide warmth or food in a first world country it can be stressful but it's actually quite simple
- wat10000 2y ago
  The early years are a ton of simple work. Later, it becomes incredibly complex and difficult. Try dealing with bad choices, power struggles, figuring out and enforcing rules.... Now try it as a typical techie person who has trouble engaging with things they don’t enjoy and doesn’t understand people. Sifting through an indecipherable mountain of information is fun. I’ll do it in my spare time. My reaction to some ridiculous bug report is, hell yeah, let’s go. The hardest stuff in my life has nothing to do with computers and it’s not even remotely close.

jonstewart 2y ago

It’s surreal, for sure, but I would like the drugs this guy is on. I can’t wait till they’re off to college when I’m 58 and I can program full bore again.

tomcam 2y ago

I still feel that way. My kids are well into their third decades.

lproven 2y ago

I enjoyed this. I became a father after 51 years of avoiding it and avoiding children. It has changed my life and enriched it in ways I could not have imagined before. I monitored myself and my internal state as closely as I am able from learning that my partner was pregant until a few months after the birth. I could not detect the slightest difference in my mind, but I have gone from strongly disliking children to being a loving dad who enjoys being around kids. I am really enjoying it. It feels like a whole section of my biological programming has been unlocked and while I couldn't feel it happening, I am now a different person, and a happier one too. It has been the most life-altering experience I've ever had, and I've nearly died, I've had skeletal surgery while awake, and more.

nachox999 2y ago

"Do you remember falling in love for the first time? Fatherhood feels like this." That's EXACTLY what I felt when my daugther was born

mdip 2y ago

I have to say that nothing in my life compared to having children. I have a 15 and a 17-year-old, today. I think the biggest factor was the shift in self-preservation instinct. Before my son was born, I had "believed" that I'd be the kind of guy who -- barring alternatives -- would jump in front of a bullet, sacrificing my own life to save my child. But I'd been on Earth for 29 years at that point and during that time, one of the things that's sort of wired into you is "avoid, at all costs, the path of projectiles fired from guns." Though I recognized that this sort of thing doesn't happen to the vast majority of people in my position, I'd wondered whether or not that instinct might kick in should that occasion ever occur. Shortly after my son was born, after the haze of sleepless nights ended, I realized something -- really, everything -- had changed. Replaying that scenario in my head, I no longer worried at all about how I'd react. I knew that there would be no scenario, ever again, where my safety would take precedence over that of my son (and later, my daughter). It wasn't the complexity of knowing I would have an impossible time living with myself if I survived and my son had died; it was like my brain had rewired a new instinct. And as any parent with children of sufficient age has probably experienced, it was tested time and again, though thankfully in much less serious ways. I remember teaching my daughter to ice skate at age 5 and upon watching her lose her balance, watching as my body lurched forward and dove under her, clumsily catching her and breaking her fall. "Watching" is the way I describe it because I don't remember ever having a thought in advance of doing it nor any control over my body once it had made the inevitable choice. There was no planning, no strategy, no honest understanding that a guy who'd never slid into first base, dove to catch a football or been skilled in any way when it came to sports along with not being particularly good in a pair of hockey skates[0] had a greater chance of injuring myself in the fall than my daughter had of injuring herself in five layers of padded cloth falling a couple of feet to the ground. I remember the moment I'd "saved her" in triumph and the subsequent feeling of defeat during the hours spent in the ER diagnosing my fracture rib. I often compare the kind of parent I thought I would be against the kind of parent I ultimately became. I had put off having kids mostly due to my sister-in-law's 4-year-old terror (who turned out just fine). I would be the strong, stern Dad who didn't let their child misbehave. I would temper this by being the loving, affectionate Dad that my own was. And while I became the latter, I quickly realized how much more effective it is to call out and encourage the good behavior. I learned to have "sit downs" and discuss the bad behavior but to be gracious with it. I understood how poorly I reacted to negativity as a child and how discouraging that was to my success when I saw my son respond like I did. Somehow, through a divorce and ensuing turmoil in my own life, I managed to end up with two teenage children who love nothing more than to spend time with Dad. We have a less-than-perfect parenting time schedule that the laws in my state make impossible for me to change (despite my flexible schedule and my children's desires) but my kids would rather schedule friend time on Mom's clock and invite friends out with us on my time. My kids both call me every day after school and we talk, sometimes for hours. We play Fortnite five out of seven nights an evening -- a game I'd be unlikely to touch without them[1] but one I'm thankful that we "play on the same team" and use mostly for talking to one another over twelve miles. I realized that up until about age 12, I could read their minds and understood them better than they knew themselves. Sometime in their teen years, I discovered that -- in some ways -- they are more brave, more honest and better children than I ever was at my best. I remember thinking "I'm not going to push programming on them" because I really respected the fact that my Dad didn't push what he did on me -- he wasn't a programmer, but he supported my second love as if it were his own. And I remember how proud I was when my daughter signed up for programming class in 8th grade and yelled at me when I suggested she might enjoy "art" (her passion and offered at the same time) more "I'm NOT doing this for YOU, Dad!" That's my girl. I think the biggest adjustment, though, is realizing that they are the entire reason I'm here. Every single thing I do comes with the question: "How does this affect them?" I might have looked at a man who behaved that way and thought "that's the kind of Dad I want to be" but I know there's nothing special about that with me -- it was a re-wiring. I fear my own death only in that I know how it would affect them were it to come suddenly in their young lives. I, like most boys raised by stereo-typical "Family Ties" or "The Cosby Show" parents learned "men don't cry" and rarely had the temptation to do so until after they were born. Last month, "The Remarkable Life of Ibelin" was released and I made it a point to get through it alone before watching it with my kids. I sobbed -- and I mean ugly cried -- through the whole thing sitting alone in my bedroom. I didn't do much better the second time with my kids[2]. I'm blessed that I've never lost my composure over my own life and its struggles but I can imagine how devastating and permanent losing one of my children would be. I thought I had a pretty good idea of what it would be like to have kids, I thought I had a lot figured out before I had them. There are few things I had more wrong in my life. Maybe it's possible for some to accurately imagine/prepare for the experience but I had absolutely no idea. I didn't have the arrogance to pray for the kind of teenagers I raised. My son and daughter both share so much of my brain, the way I process things and the like but they use it differently. When people say "your kids teach you as much as you teach them", that's what they mean. You watch your own struggles get adapted to differently, quite often better, than you did. My son processes things with deep empathy. My daughter errs toward logic and reasoned argument. More than a few occasions, I'm stuck thinking "dammit, they're right" and find myself demonstrating the act of apologizing. That's a humbling experience. [0] This was a wet indoor rink and though I could handle myself OK on outdoor lake ice and was very proficient with inlines on cement or gravel. [1] My gaming days are behind me, frankly. [2] My Dad, who was -- in every way -- a stereotypical "He-Man" is exactly the same way.

uhtred 2y ago

This is like LinkedIn content not hackernews.

Def_Os 2y ago

Well written, and very recognizable. I felt pretty much the same as the author at the time of my firstborn. The second kid's birth I don't even remember, haha. I can say that 8 years later the love for the children and my partner has only deepened. Family life is unrelenting and exhausting at times, but I'm one of the lucky ones with a fabulous partner and healthy, smart and fun kids-- until the teenage years change the picture all over again, maybe?