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Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

247 points by peutetre 2y ago

xnx 2y ago
92 locations
nimbius 2y ago
I applaud the effort to expand charging across the nation as this will inevitably increase the comfort level of the average joe on the fence with range anxiety. The elephant in the room that nobody is talking about is the connector. There are SEVEN different competing charging connector types in North America. if i dont have an adapter, im either screwed into spending 3 hours at a charging station or im calling a tow truck. Until the USA adopts a reasonable national standard then all this electric car futurism is just branded nonsense and patent profiteering. ICE automobiles have TWO standards for fuel, regular pump, and hi-flo nozzles with a wider diameter built to fit commercial trucks. they are free to use.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
  Isn’t adoption of NACS supposed to be the solution here?
- i80and 2y ago
  In practice there are only three: NACS (currently only at Tesla stations); CCS (everywhere that isn't Tesla), and J1772 (destination charging). NACS is the industry consensus on the one true North American plug to rule them all going forward. CHAdeMO is completely dead -- you'll sometimes see them, but they're being kept on life support if not outright decommissioned.
  - bdcravens 2y ago
    In practical terms, CCS and J1772 are the same standard, in the sense that 2 prong and 3 prong US power plugs are the same standard, since receiving plugs support both. I do still see CHAdeMO at a lot of EA and EVgo stations (I usually charge at home, so my charging station experience is mostly limited to road trips)
    - i80and 2y ago
      Around here EA's upgrading to CCS-only stations. The older non-upgraded stations only have a single CHAdeMO plug that is usually out of order because it's on very old hardware.
  - floxy 2y ago
    There are still in the neighborhood of 190,000 Leafs in the U.S.
    - i80and 2y ago
      For better or for worse, the charging networks have generally agreed that the aging Leaf population isn't worth supporting. (Which makes it absolute lunacy that Nissan is still selling the Leaf)
      - NewJazz 2y ago
        Especially when they apparently have a replacement platform that is perfectly adequate (Ariya).
  - peutetre 2y ago
    > NACS (currently only at Tesla stations) The J3400 plug is already deployed by other charge point operators. ChargePoint had J3400 plugs on their chargers 6 months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3-0xRTduPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3-0xRTduPI
- isaacdl 2y ago
  What are the 7? In my experience, the two that really matter are J1772/CCS1 and NACS (Tesla). There's a scattering of CHADeMO, but I haven't yet seen a Level 3 DC charger that has CHADeMO only - the cabinet also has a CCS1 plug. Most (all?) manufacturers will be moving to NACS in the next few years. Luckily, J1772/CCS1 and NACS are protocol-level compatible, so adaptors are relatively cheap and easy to make. The remaining incompatibilities are commercial/business decisions (e.g. Telsa opening up the Supercharger network to other manufacturers). EDIT to clarify: I'm combining J1772 and CCS1 because there aren't any cars that have one but not the other. CCS1 starts with J1772 and adds a couple extra pins for DC fast charging (Level 3).
  - toast0 2y ago
    PHEVs usually only have J1772. Not that we need to charge at a station, but I'm happy to take a free charge when available.
    - NewJazz 2y ago
      Eh, AC is nice for employers, hotels, RESIDENTIAL. But the shopping center ones are gimmicky. They're like 3.3kW with a 1kW TV next to it. Thanks shell.
  - _ea1k 2y ago
    I'm guessing that 7 comes from splitting J1772 from CCS1. It sort of makes sense, I guess. There are even a few EVs with J1772 but not CCS1 (eg, the early Chevrolet Bolt without the DCFC option). I agree with you, though. Splitting it out is weird at this point. It'd be a bit like pointing at all the different grades of gasoline and saying filling gas cars is hard. 87 octane, 89 octane, 92 octane, e-85 (try explaining the difference between the 85% ethanol and octane to people for some real fun), race gas, 100LL, ethanol free in several octanes. And that's not even getting into oil viscosities. Of course, the real world isn't hard at all. EV standards aren't really hard in the real world either, though there is a little learning curve.
    - NewJazz 2y ago
- NotSammyHagar 2y ago
  There's only 3 plug formats that matter. J1772 for AC charging, the Tesla plug (called NACS), and CCS, the other main standard. It may look messy but it's trivial in practice, once you can use superchargers. Once you have access to superchargers you can just drive. I've driven across the country 3 times in a Tesla, now I have a different EV with a CCS plug and access to superchargers with an adapter, I'm free to go where I want.
  - wlesieutre 2y ago
    It's not only the plug shape though, it's also the language the plug speaks. Newer Tesla chargers (I think supercharger v3 and up) will be able to talk CCS over the NACS connector for wide compatibility, but the older ones will look the same and only charge a Tesla because they don't communicate with CCS.
    - greenthrow 2y ago
      Yeah the V2s are also slow enough most people wouldn't want to use them anyway. They are already drastically outnumbered too.
    - NotSammyHagar 2y ago
      That "old superchargers don't work with CCS" is true yet it's not really a problem. First, the software sites that show you chargers know about the different versions. Tesla and even Rivian show you only the superchargers you can use. The old superchargers (called v2) used the original protocol (CANbus) which is different than CCS's protocol. Newer Tesla superchargers speak the original proto and the ccs wire protocol. All new chargers uses the new protocol. Tesla is slowly replacing their chargers as they age out. At the same time this transition helps reserve a few chargers for teslas (the older v2 ones). What this means is you use your incar app or a phone app to find chargers, and you only see the ones that you can use. This works for Rivian, Tesla, but also GM and Ford. It's a messy issue for sure, but it's turns out not to be an issue.
    - Schiendelman 2y ago
      Everyone's car already knows what chargers they can use. The card doesn't route you to incompatible chargers. This is a solved problem. It sounds like you just don't have an EV.
- bdcravens 2y ago
  Virtually every EV sold today is one of 2 standards.
  - Twirrim 2y ago
    And adapters for the other standard are <$200, and don't take up that much space in a trunk.
    - bdcravens 2y ago
      In the event I'm ever truly stranded, I do have a Level 1 charger I keep in my car so that all I need is a 110v outlet. Since my car (EV6) supports V2L and has an internal 110v outlet, I could also use it to help another stranded EV. Not fast, but it is a lifeline.
      - _yb2s 2y ago
        Half way through your comment I got worried you were about to claim you could charge your EV off its own internal outlet. No joke, I’ve seen many people on car forums saying EV companies are idiots for not making them self charging.
        NewJazz 2y ago
        https://images-stag.jazelc.com/uploads/theautopian-m2en/No_free_lunch-1.jpg https://images-stag.jazelc.com/uploads/theautopian-m2en/No_f...
- greenthrow 2y ago
  This is not at all accurate. There have only ever been 3 DC Fast Charging connectors in use in North America. CCS1, Tesla's and Chademo. Chademo was only really used on a couple of cars and most popularly on the Nissan Leaf. Chademo is effectively dead in the US. Which leaves CCS1 and Tesla/NACS/J3400 (which is all the same thing.) All manufacturers are migrating to Tesla's plug. This will take time as it's not a trivial change. Any EV driver is well served to carry an adapter, but it's not totally necessary. My BMW EV does not have accesd to Tesla's supercharging network (so no need for an adapter) and I have driven over 50k miles in the last 18 months on road trips all over the US. Please stop spreading misinformation.
- mikestew 2y ago
  if i dont have an adapter, im either screwed into spending 3 hours at a charging station or im calling a tow truck Found the commenter that’s never actually owned an EV. 13 years of EV ownership and numerous road trips, and your hypotheticals have never happened to me. Yes, you’re technically correct, said by some to be the worst kind of correct. Because in day-to-day reality, there are basically two kinds of connector types. Though if your day job, as listed in your profile, is changing brake pads, I could see how you don’t have a lot of contact with EVs. :-)
  - bdcravens 2y ago
    They're technically correct in the same sense that there are more than 2 mobile operating systems.
    - NotSammyHagar 2y ago
      Or maybe it's kind of like there were more than 4 different plugs for mobile phones to charger (lightning for apple, several variants of USB, some weirdo proprietary, then usb-c). A lot of people like me have 3 there way splitters (micro-usb, lightning, usb-c), so I can charge any phone. The world is switching to usb-c finally
- grecy 2y ago
  The US did just adopt a Federal EV charging connector. [1] Hint: it’s Tesla’s NACS 1 : https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/teslas-nacs-set-to-become-official-us-federal-ev-charging-standard/ https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/teslas-nacs-set-to-become-o...
- titaniumtown 2y ago
  Seven? No, there's really just CCS/J1772 and NACS. And those are protocol-compatible, just the pins are different. Some stations now conveniently have adapters right there too. Your portrayal of charging in NA is not accurate.
bdcravens 2y ago
TIL Rivian has a charging network
- pbreit 2y ago
  ~90 locations?
  - bdcravens 2y ago
    Yeah I've just never seen one, and don't have a Rivian, so it never came across the media I consume. I'm in the Houston area, and they only have 3 in Texas, none of which are near me. Only one is on a freeway that I may likely encounter.
    - Rebelgecko 2y ago
      They're more common further west, especially around national parks and other outdoorsy areas
    - mikeryan 2y ago
      I've got a Rivian and have only used their chargers on a road trip to Whistler from the Bay Area. One was in Shasta behind a little hotel—you'd not see it if you weren't looking for it. The other was at a Homewood Suites lot somewhere in Southern Oregon. Unsurprisingly, these were back-to-back stops. So, I think they were specifically put there to help bridge a gap between Northern CA and Southern OR.
      - recursive 2y ago
        If you were going to use it, your car's navigation would probably route you there, and you wouldn't need to look for it. FWIW.
        mikeryan 2y ago
        Agreed. That comment was just a response to the parent who commented that they hadn't seen RAN chargers often. Of note, right by the Shasta station was a large Supercharger bank, so the planning for this was probably done before the Rivian deal to use Tesla chargers and the free adapter program Rivian implemented. They may have kept that one anyway, considering the Shasta Area is probably underserved and fits Rivian's target market for their stations ("adventure" areas)
izacus 2y ago
How did we get from a situation where you could just pay with cash/card for fuel to having monopolized single-brand car fueling stations?
- onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
  When it started taking 30 minutes to "fill up" your car. High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed. A gas pump costs about $25k installed. If the average person spends 4 minutes at a pump, that comes out to: The time value of a slot at a super charger can be >$5 for each charge. The time value of a slot at a gas pump is ~$0.07 per fill up. The economics of a charging business are awful. High CapEx, few cars, not many of them need chargers since they can charge at home. The economics of a gas station were not terrible. There's a reason you don't see immigrants from all over the world coming to the US to open charging stations the way you saw them opening gas stations. And that's the reason you have charging monopolies.
  - VectorLock 2y ago
    >High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed. >A gas pump costs about $25k installed. These numbers seem skewed to me. I think you're quoting prices for gas pumps with just the pump, not any storage infrastructure like underground tanks, stores, employees. Then you're quoting the cost high speed chargers without any kind of electrical infrastructure to support them, which would be expensive, but more analogous to including the cost of all the other infrastructure for gas stations as well.
    - zdragnar 2y ago
      Storage tanks are (relatively) cheap. Stores and employees are needed because margins on gasoline are extremely thin, and it's an easy way to make money if you're already putting in the pumps. The infrastructure for high speed chargers is a lot of metal, which unlike a store, does not contribute extra money in addition to the pump.
      - 2y ago
Suppafly 2y ago
I had no idea that Rivian had a charging network and they build them like an hour from where I live so I see them all over the place. I just assumed they used the Tesla ones or the generic ones you see all over.
- asynchronous 2y ago
  They do (mis)use the Tesla ones. I don’t expect this announcement means literally anything to any EV brand.
  - Suppafly 2y ago
    in what sense do they misuse them?
    - xnx 2y ago
      They take up 2 spots: https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1f0wt4v/okay_is_there_actually_a_way_for_us_not_to_esse/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1f0wt4v/okay_is_the...
      - Suppafly 2y ago
        Apparently that's the recommended way from Tesla to do it, per that thread. Do they not make extension cords you can use with the charger cables so you charge from other angles?
        Kirby64 2y ago
        No, they don’t. Extension cables for something that is dumping 250kW would be dangerous, or outrageously expensive and bulky.
        floxy 2y ago
        Tesla is rolling out stations with longer cables. Supposedly, there will be more long cable V4 supercharging stations than the older short cable version in 18 months. https://insideevs.com/news/742106/tesla-supercharger-longer-cables-non-tesla-evs/ https://insideevs.com/news/742106/tesla-supercharger-longer-... https://electrek.co/2024/11/27/tesla-adds-longer-cables-and-more-to-superchargers-as-non-tesla-evs-complicate-things/ https://electrek.co/2024/11/27/tesla-adds-longer-cables-and-...
whicks 2y ago
Rivian's charging network map: https://rivian.com/experience/charging#map https://rivian.com/experience/charging#map They have plans to install 3,500 stations across North America, but they have a ways to go to reach that level of density.
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  the densest part of LA is so underserviced - midcity wealthy apartment dwellers that can't charge at home, being neglected by supercharging networks that believe its a last resort for long trips
NotSammyHagar 2y ago
Their strategy was to build them where there weren't other dcfc chargers, opening up new areas especially around outdoors places. Their chargers are much better maintained in general than the infamous Electrify America (they really struggle to fix EA chargers when they have problems, and they have problems) - there's a long story behind this. Rivian started before the plan to use superchargers was even envisioned, so today some of those holes that Rivian was filling aren't so important because tesla superchargers are nearby. Rivian has done a great job keeping their chargers working, have the software be reliable, just running a good service. Many and maybe most DCFC charger networks (DCFC meaning high power CCS chargers not including Tesla superchargers) really have struggled to match the uptime and reliability tesla SC. Tesla's magic ability it: (1) fix them when they break, quickly. (2) don't just build 4 chargers in a spot, it's almost the same cost to build 8 or 10. (3) string them together along main travel routes to make it possible to travel. The entire rest of the the charging industry basically fails at those 3 things. Most of them can't manage to fix a broken charger, sometimes in months. One major reason is they often don't have standardized hardware so there might not be a spare hardware to fix something there.
- iknowstuff 2y ago
  Tesla’s magic is excellent, quick, and cheap manufacturing coupled with their own dedicated software for them. And constant iteration. EA is a pathetic failure because its a hodgepodge of outsourced components (so very difficult to iterate) running on some shitty outsourced windows based software.
  - piva00 2y ago
    EA is a pathetic failure because it was the punishment for Volkswagen for the emissions scandal. They were obliged to do it, not chosen.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      That and it seems like VW can't reliably deliver any decent software on any kind of platform. It's incredible how they have so many cars hobbled with some of the worst UXs on the market. It's not even like most of their competition is that competent, they're just exceptionally bad. Look at a lot of the reviews of the ID series, like the recent ID.Buzz.
agarwa90 2y ago
I wonder why did they didnt consider doing this right from the start!
78adad2323 2y ago
Has anyone does a trade-in value for these EVs? The depreciation of these EV vehicles are crazy...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- titaniumtown 2y ago
  Speaking from the other side, I got an EV (Ioniq 5) ~$10,000 off with ~15k miles on it.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    $10k off what? Original list price? Or advertised used price?
    - titaniumtown 2y ago
      MSRP
- tirant 2y ago
  The real deal today is to buy an EV second hand, not to sell it. There’s still so much fear on how long the battery will hold up, however all statistics are pointing at > 80% capacity for 10 years old / 200,000 miles. Expectations for replacement costs in 2026-2027 are around $40/kWh, which will be around $3000 for replacing the typical Tesla battery.
  - floxy 2y ago
    >Expectations for replacement costs in 2026-2027 are around $40/kWh ...is that for refurbished packs? Source? >$3000 for replacing the typical Tesla battery. ...anyone know how much labor is involved in swapping out a Tesla battery pack?
  - zie 2y ago
    or lease. Some EV lease deals are pretty amazing.
ulrischa 2y ago
Cool feature: The Rivian R1T and R1S are equipped with a "Tank Turn" feature, allowing the vehicle to rotate 360 degrees in place by spinning the left and right wheels in opposite directions.
- hinkley 2y ago
  That’s hell on the tires if they are fixed axle isn’t it?
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    Not if you are on a loose offroad surface. The Sherp offroad vehicle for example, only turns this way.
- titaniumtown 2y ago
  Very neat! I bet it isn't good for the tires though haha.
  - HeavenFox 2y ago
    The Mercedes G implementation of this specifically called out not to use this feature on pavement :)
- mrkurt 2y ago
  This was a demo they did in a video but it's not available to anyone who actually owns one of these. I believe the EV Mercedes G Wagon does have it as a feature though.
- Schiendelman 2y ago
  Could you edit your comment? This is incorrect. It was a demo, but they chose not to do it because it does so much damage to ground surface, and their vehicles are intended to be used in places like national parks where that matters a lot.
  - ulrischa 2y ago
fredsmith219 2y ago
The have a charger very near to where I go in Michigan, and 30 miles from the nearest supercharger. They announced earlier this year that they would open up the RAN “near the end of the year” so I’ve been waiting for this announcement. The fact that they will only gradually modify existing chargers to work with other vehicles is a disappointment. It’s all CCS so it should just be a software update. I am really looking forward to charging my model Y at the Rivian charger. I’m guessing that that will be a long time coming now. Oh well, I guess the Red E charger gets my business for the foreseeable future. They have excellent customer service and they just upgraded the charger to be much faster.
- cogman10 2y ago
  > It’s all CCS so it should just be a software update. Nope. CCS has to negotiate voltages with the attached vehicle. Unfortunately there isn't a standardized pack voltage and the range of what it can be is anywhere from 400 -> 900V. That can mean new inverter hardware at a location to handle the varying range of voltages that come in. For a single manufacturer, it's easier as the cars and charging stations are more aligned on the supported voltages.
  - _ea1k 2y ago
    All CCS cars support 400V charging, though. Just some of them do it much more slowly compared to an 800V charger. This is why Tesla is able to work with CCS, despite superchargers not supporting 800V.
  - peutetre 2y ago
    > Unfortunately there isn't a standardized pack voltage and the range of what it can be is anywhere from 400 -> 900V. The CCS spec supports up to 1000 volts. All chargers support variable voltages. A car's pack voltage also changes continuously across the charge curve as the battery's state of charge increases. The pack is at its lowest voltage at 0% state of charge and at its highest at 100%. Here's an example of four cars charging, three at 400 volts and one at 800 volts. You can see how the voltage and amperage change across the charge curve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Cil3seCHM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Cil3seCHM
yalogin 2y ago
Had no idea they had a charging network, but does it really matter? Tesla is so far away ahead of everyone else that I cannot see anyone catching up. Even if they stop making cars Tesla can keep making money off their charging network.
xyst 2y ago
With current charging times, I wonder if EV companies are considering buying up the surrounding land of their charging stations and subsequently leasing the land. Once EV becomes more mainstream/adopted, people are very likely to stay in the area for a long period. Either stay in your vehicle, or grab a nice hot meal for an hour. Maybe vicinity of EV charging stations will revive the “strip mall”
- NewJazz 2y ago
  Don't assume that present charging speeds will be the typical experience in even a five year horizon. Hyundai's eGMP platform will get you charged up in less than 20 minutes typically. Tesla and others are a little closer to 30 minutes per charge, right now. But that could halve in 5 years, conceivably. Are you really going to invest in land on a 10+ year time frame when the tech is still evolving?
wonder_er 2y ago
bonkers that EVs are known to depend on child labor/slave labor in the DRC to the order of 2kg/5lbs of cobalt PER EV, and people think it's cool to drive them around. When I see them, I think of how broken-hearted I would be for my three year old kid if she were 'employed' in the slave labor industry of cobalt mining in the drc. some EV batteries don't consume cobalt, I concede, but the industry and market and trade and slavery still is created and sustained by the EV industry. I could never. I propose that you consider adding a >125cc scooter to your mobility toolkit. It's a convivial vehicle class.
- virgildotcodes 2y ago
  Bonkers that the climate change fueled by fossil fuels is leading to children starving to death due to changing weather patterns, more extreme droughts, and my god how many children and adults will live and die in agony as it really kicks in and global mass migrations for survival truly develop, I could never. This was written as someone that drives a gas powered car. Your comment reads like a meme being seeded on the internet by oil companies to muddy support for a transition away from fossil fuels.
- stephenr 2y ago
  I don't drive an EV but devils advocate is pretty easy here: Bonkers that ICE's are known to contribute to climate change globally and cause air quality issues at a local level, and people think it's cool to drive them around. You're broken hearted for your hypothetical 3 year old in a hypothetical mine, but you don't see a problem with the same hypothetical 3 year old growing up in a world without clean air, with increasingly extreme weather events?
rootusrootus 2y ago
Phased rollout, yes? I heard chatter about this on the Lightning forum earlier today and the comments said it was currently just a single site available to us.
joejohnson 2y ago
How has the US already mucked this up so badly? Just enforce common charger standard like the EU
deleted 2y ago
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bilsbie 2y ago
Side note: why don’t gas stations offer charging? They’re already at good locations and they could drive business to their shops and delis. Especially if they happen to be in a an area with no other chargers around. Don’t even be fancy. Just buy a consumer grade charger with a 220 volt outlet and have the cashier charge $20/hour or something.
- ac29 2y ago
  Some do, but fast chargers are expensive. L2 AC chargers like you are mentioning would be a terrible fit for a gas station because they are too slow. In my car, which has a small battery, charging for a full hour is only like a 15% charge. No one wants to hang out at a gas station for several hours, and even if they did they arent going to go into the store to buy stuff more than once most likely.
bilsbie 2y ago
Side topic but I’ve thought it would be cool for EV owners to offer their chargers up just for people in emergencies. Battery about to die. You could even charge a big mark up. I’d be willing to help a poor traveler once a week or so. Someone should make a website like that where ev owners can list themselves for emergency charging.
- 1970-01-01 2y ago
  Plugshare.com made that about a decade ago. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a40897680/ev-public-charging-at-private-homes/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a40897680/ev-public-ch...
- fillskills 2y ago
  Very popular in Asian countries maybe because the EVs there are much smaller such as bikes
bilsbie 2y ago
I think it’s cool how you can essentially gain range when the number of charger locations increases. You can go to lower and lower charge levels if you know there’s a charger every few miles. On the flip side. When there are few chargers you could be forced to charge at 60% battery!
deleted 2y ago
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247 points by peutetre 2y ago

xnx 2y ago

92 locations

I applaud the effort to expand charging across the nation as this will inevitably increase the comfort level of the average joe on the fence with range anxiety. The elephant in the room that nobody is talking about is the connector. There are SEVEN different competing charging connector types in North America. if i dont have an adapter, im either screwed into spending 3 hours at a charging station or im calling a tow truck. Until the USA adopts a reasonable national standard then all this electric car futurism is just branded nonsense and patent profiteering. ICE automobiles have TWO standards for fuel, regular pump, and hi-flo nozzles with a wider diameter built to fit commercial trucks. they are free to use.

SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
Isn’t adoption of NACS supposed to be the solution here?
i80and 2y ago
In practice there are only three: NACS (currently only at Tesla stations); CCS (everywhere that isn't Tesla), and J1772 (destination charging). NACS is the industry consensus on the one true North American plug to rule them all going forward. CHAdeMO is completely dead -- you'll sometimes see them, but they're being kept on life support if not outright decommissioned.
- bdcravens 2y ago
  In practical terms, CCS and J1772 are the same standard, in the sense that 2 prong and 3 prong US power plugs are the same standard, since receiving plugs support both. I do still see CHAdeMO at a lot of EA and EVgo stations (I usually charge at home, so my charging station experience is mostly limited to road trips)
  - i80and 2y ago
    Around here EA's upgrading to CCS-only stations. The older non-upgraded stations only have a single CHAdeMO plug that is usually out of order because it's on very old hardware.
- floxy 2y ago
  There are still in the neighborhood of 190,000 Leafs in the U.S.
  - i80and 2y ago
    For better or for worse, the charging networks have generally agreed that the aging Leaf population isn't worth supporting. (Which makes it absolute lunacy that Nissan is still selling the Leaf)
    - NewJazz 2y ago
      Especially when they apparently have a replacement platform that is perfectly adequate (Ariya).
- peutetre 2y ago
  > NACS (currently only at Tesla stations) The J3400 plug is already deployed by other charge point operators. ChargePoint had J3400 plugs on their chargers 6 months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3-0xRTduPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3-0xRTduPI
isaacdl 2y ago
What are the 7? In my experience, the two that really matter are J1772/CCS1 and NACS (Tesla). There's a scattering of CHADeMO, but I haven't yet seen a Level 3 DC charger that has CHADeMO only - the cabinet also has a CCS1 plug. Most (all?) manufacturers will be moving to NACS in the next few years. Luckily, J1772/CCS1 and NACS are protocol-level compatible, so adaptors are relatively cheap and easy to make. The remaining incompatibilities are commercial/business decisions (e.g. Telsa opening up the Supercharger network to other manufacturers). EDIT to clarify: I'm combining J1772 and CCS1 because there aren't any cars that have one but not the other. CCS1 starts with J1772 and adds a couple extra pins for DC fast charging (Level 3).
- toast0 2y ago
  PHEVs usually only have J1772. Not that we need to charge at a station, but I'm happy to take a free charge when available.
  - NewJazz 2y ago
    Eh, AC is nice for employers, hotels, RESIDENTIAL. But the shopping center ones are gimmicky. They're like 3.3kW with a 1kW TV next to it. Thanks shell.
- _ea1k 2y ago
  I'm guessing that 7 comes from splitting J1772 from CCS1. It sort of makes sense, I guess. There are even a few EVs with J1772 but not CCS1 (eg, the early Chevrolet Bolt without the DCFC option). I agree with you, though. Splitting it out is weird at this point. It'd be a bit like pointing at all the different grades of gasoline and saying filling gas cars is hard. 87 octane, 89 octane, 92 octane, e-85 (try explaining the difference between the 85% ethanol and octane to people for some real fun), race gas, 100LL, ethanol free in several octanes. And that's not even getting into oil viscosities. Of course, the real world isn't hard at all. EV standards aren't really hard in the real world either, though there is a little learning curve.
  - NewJazz 2y ago
NotSammyHagar 2y ago
There's only 3 plug formats that matter. J1772 for AC charging, the Tesla plug (called NACS), and CCS, the other main standard. It may look messy but it's trivial in practice, once you can use superchargers. Once you have access to superchargers you can just drive. I've driven across the country 3 times in a Tesla, now I have a different EV with a CCS plug and access to superchargers with an adapter, I'm free to go where I want.
- wlesieutre 2y ago
  It's not only the plug shape though, it's also the language the plug speaks. Newer Tesla chargers (I think supercharger v3 and up) will be able to talk CCS over the NACS connector for wide compatibility, but the older ones will look the same and only charge a Tesla because they don't communicate with CCS.
  - greenthrow 2y ago
    Yeah the V2s are also slow enough most people wouldn't want to use them anyway. They are already drastically outnumbered too.
  - NotSammyHagar 2y ago
    That "old superchargers don't work with CCS" is true yet it's not really a problem. First, the software sites that show you chargers know about the different versions. Tesla and even Rivian show you only the superchargers you can use. The old superchargers (called v2) used the original protocol (CANbus) which is different than CCS's protocol. Newer Tesla superchargers speak the original proto and the ccs wire protocol. All new chargers uses the new protocol. Tesla is slowly replacing their chargers as they age out. At the same time this transition helps reserve a few chargers for teslas (the older v2 ones). What this means is you use your incar app or a phone app to find chargers, and you only see the ones that you can use. This works for Rivian, Tesla, but also GM and Ford. It's a messy issue for sure, but it's turns out not to be an issue.
  - Schiendelman 2y ago
    Everyone's car already knows what chargers they can use. The card doesn't route you to incompatible chargers. This is a solved problem. It sounds like you just don't have an EV.
bdcravens 2y ago
Virtually every EV sold today is one of 2 standards.
- Twirrim 2y ago
  And adapters for the other standard are <$200, and don't take up that much space in a trunk.
  - bdcravens 2y ago
    In the event I'm ever truly stranded, I do have a Level 1 charger I keep in my car so that all I need is a 110v outlet. Since my car (EV6) supports V2L and has an internal 110v outlet, I could also use it to help another stranded EV. Not fast, but it is a lifeline.
    - _yb2s 2y ago
      Half way through your comment I got worried you were about to claim you could charge your EV off its own internal outlet. No joke, I’ve seen many people on car forums saying EV companies are idiots for not making them self charging.
      - NewJazz 2y ago
        https://images-stag.jazelc.com/uploads/theautopian-m2en/No_free_lunch-1.jpg https://images-stag.jazelc.com/uploads/theautopian-m2en/No_f...
greenthrow 2y ago
This is not at all accurate. There have only ever been 3 DC Fast Charging connectors in use in North America. CCS1, Tesla's and Chademo. Chademo was only really used on a couple of cars and most popularly on the Nissan Leaf. Chademo is effectively dead in the US. Which leaves CCS1 and Tesla/NACS/J3400 (which is all the same thing.) All manufacturers are migrating to Tesla's plug. This will take time as it's not a trivial change. Any EV driver is well served to carry an adapter, but it's not totally necessary. My BMW EV does not have accesd to Tesla's supercharging network (so no need for an adapter) and I have driven over 50k miles in the last 18 months on road trips all over the US. Please stop spreading misinformation.
mikestew 2y ago
if i dont have an adapter, im either screwed into spending 3 hours at a charging station or im calling a tow truck Found the commenter that’s never actually owned an EV. 13 years of EV ownership and numerous road trips, and your hypotheticals have never happened to me. Yes, you’re technically correct, said by some to be the worst kind of correct. Because in day-to-day reality, there are basically two kinds of connector types. Though if your day job, as listed in your profile, is changing brake pads, I could see how you don’t have a lot of contact with EVs. :-)
- bdcravens 2y ago
  They're technically correct in the same sense that there are more than 2 mobile operating systems.
  - NotSammyHagar 2y ago
    Or maybe it's kind of like there were more than 4 different plugs for mobile phones to charger (lightning for apple, several variants of USB, some weirdo proprietary, then usb-c). A lot of people like me have 3 there way splitters (micro-usb, lightning, usb-c), so I can charge any phone. The world is switching to usb-c finally
grecy 2y ago
The US did just adopt a Federal EV charging connector. [1] Hint: it’s Tesla’s NACS 1 : https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/teslas-nacs-set-to-become-official-us-federal-ev-charging-standard/ https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/teslas-nacs-set-to-become-o...
titaniumtown 2y ago
Seven? No, there's really just CCS/J1772 and NACS. And those are protocol-compatible, just the pins are different. Some stations now conveniently have adapters right there too. Your portrayal of charging in NA is not accurate.

bdcravens 2y ago

TIL Rivian has a charging network

pbreit 2y ago
~90 locations?
- bdcravens 2y ago
  Yeah I've just never seen one, and don't have a Rivian, so it never came across the media I consume. I'm in the Houston area, and they only have 3 in Texas, none of which are near me. Only one is on a freeway that I may likely encounter.
  - Rebelgecko 2y ago
    They're more common further west, especially around national parks and other outdoorsy areas
  - mikeryan 2y ago
    I've got a Rivian and have only used their chargers on a road trip to Whistler from the Bay Area. One was in Shasta behind a little hotel—you'd not see it if you weren't looking for it. The other was at a Homewood Suites lot somewhere in Southern Oregon. Unsurprisingly, these were back-to-back stops. So, I think they were specifically put there to help bridge a gap between Northern CA and Southern OR.
    - recursive 2y ago
      If you were going to use it, your car's navigation would probably route you there, and you wouldn't need to look for it. FWIW.
      - mikeryan 2y ago
        Agreed. That comment was just a response to the parent who commented that they hadn't seen RAN chargers often. Of note, right by the Shasta station was a large Supercharger bank, so the planning for this was probably done before the Rivian deal to use Tesla chargers and the free adapter program Rivian implemented. They may have kept that one anyway, considering the Shasta Area is probably underserved and fits Rivian's target market for their stations ("adventure" areas)

izacus 2y ago

How did we get from a situation where you could just pay with cash/card for fuel to having monopolized single-brand car fueling stations?

onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
When it started taking 30 minutes to "fill up" your car. High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed. A gas pump costs about $25k installed. If the average person spends 4 minutes at a pump, that comes out to: The time value of a slot at a super charger can be >$5 for each charge. The time value of a slot at a gas pump is ~$0.07 per fill up. The economics of a charging business are awful. High CapEx, few cars, not many of them need chargers since they can charge at home. The economics of a gas station were not terrible. There's a reason you don't see immigrants from all over the world coming to the US to open charging stations the way you saw them opening gas stations. And that's the reason you have charging monopolies.
- VectorLock 2y ago
  >High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed. >A gas pump costs about $25k installed. These numbers seem skewed to me. I think you're quoting prices for gas pumps with just the pump, not any storage infrastructure like underground tanks, stores, employees. Then you're quoting the cost high speed chargers without any kind of electrical infrastructure to support them, which would be expensive, but more analogous to including the cost of all the other infrastructure for gas stations as well.
  - zdragnar 2y ago
    Storage tanks are (relatively) cheap. Stores and employees are needed because margins on gasoline are extremely thin, and it's an easy way to make money if you're already putting in the pumps. The infrastructure for high speed chargers is a lot of metal, which unlike a store, does not contribute extra money in addition to the pump.
    - 2y ago

Suppafly 2y ago

I had no idea that Rivian had a charging network and they build them like an hour from where I live so I see them all over the place. I just assumed they used the Tesla ones or the generic ones you see all over.

asynchronous 2y ago
They do (mis)use the Tesla ones. I don’t expect this announcement means literally anything to any EV brand.
- Suppafly 2y ago
  in what sense do they misuse them?
  - xnx 2y ago
    They take up 2 spots: https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1f0wt4v/okay_is_there_actually_a_way_for_us_not_to_esse/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1f0wt4v/okay_is_the...
    - Suppafly 2y ago
      Apparently that's the recommended way from Tesla to do it, per that thread. Do they not make extension cords you can use with the charger cables so you charge from other angles?
      - Kirby64 2y ago
        No, they don’t. Extension cables for something that is dumping 250kW would be dangerous, or outrageously expensive and bulky.
        floxy 2y ago
        Tesla is rolling out stations with longer cables. Supposedly, there will be more long cable V4 supercharging stations than the older short cable version in 18 months. https://insideevs.com/news/742106/tesla-supercharger-longer-cables-non-tesla-evs/ https://insideevs.com/news/742106/tesla-supercharger-longer-... https://electrek.co/2024/11/27/tesla-adds-longer-cables-and-more-to-superchargers-as-non-tesla-evs-complicate-things/ https://electrek.co/2024/11/27/tesla-adds-longer-cables-and-...

whicks 2y ago

Rivian's charging network map: https://rivian.com/experience/charging#map https://rivian.com/experience/charging#map They have plans to install 3,500 stations across North America, but they have a ways to go to reach that level of density.

yieldcrv 2y ago
the densest part of LA is so underserviced - midcity wealthy apartment dwellers that can't charge at home, being neglected by supercharging networks that believe its a last resort for long trips

NotSammyHagar 2y ago

Their strategy was to build them where there weren't other dcfc chargers, opening up new areas especially around outdoors places. Their chargers are much better maintained in general than the infamous Electrify America (they really struggle to fix EA chargers when they have problems, and they have problems) - there's a long story behind this. Rivian started before the plan to use superchargers was even envisioned, so today some of those holes that Rivian was filling aren't so important because tesla superchargers are nearby. Rivian has done a great job keeping their chargers working, have the software be reliable, just running a good service. Many and maybe most DCFC charger networks (DCFC meaning high power CCS chargers not including Tesla superchargers) really have struggled to match the uptime and reliability tesla SC. Tesla's magic ability it: (1) fix them when they break, quickly. (2) don't just build 4 chargers in a spot, it's almost the same cost to build 8 or 10. (3) string them together along main travel routes to make it possible to travel. The entire rest of the the charging industry basically fails at those 3 things. Most of them can't manage to fix a broken charger, sometimes in months. One major reason is they often don't have standardized hardware so there might not be a spare hardware to fix something there.

iknowstuff 2y ago
Tesla’s magic is excellent, quick, and cheap manufacturing coupled with their own dedicated software for them. And constant iteration. EA is a pathetic failure because its a hodgepodge of outsourced components (so very difficult to iterate) running on some shitty outsourced windows based software.
- piva00 2y ago
  EA is a pathetic failure because it was the punishment for Volkswagen for the emissions scandal. They were obliged to do it, not chosen.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    That and it seems like VW can't reliably deliver any decent software on any kind of platform. It's incredible how they have so many cars hobbled with some of the worst UXs on the market. It's not even like most of their competition is that competent, they're just exceptionally bad. Look at a lot of the reviews of the ID series, like the recent ID.Buzz.

agarwa90 2y ago

I wonder why did they didnt consider doing this right from the start!

78adad2323 2y ago

Has anyone does a trade-in value for these EVs? The depreciation of these EV vehicles are crazy...

deleted 2y ago
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titaniumtown 2y ago
Speaking from the other side, I got an EV (Ioniq 5) ~$10,000 off with ~15k miles on it.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  $10k off what? Original list price? Or advertised used price?
  - titaniumtown 2y ago
    MSRP
tirant 2y ago
The real deal today is to buy an EV second hand, not to sell it. There’s still so much fear on how long the battery will hold up, however all statistics are pointing at > 80% capacity for 10 years old / 200,000 miles. Expectations for replacement costs in 2026-2027 are around $40/kWh, which will be around $3000 for replacing the typical Tesla battery.
- floxy 2y ago
  >Expectations for replacement costs in 2026-2027 are around $40/kWh ...is that for refurbished packs? Source? >$3000 for replacing the typical Tesla battery. ...anyone know how much labor is involved in swapping out a Tesla battery pack?
- zie 2y ago
  or lease. Some EV lease deals are pretty amazing.

ulrischa 2y ago

Cool feature: The Rivian R1T and R1S are equipped with a "Tank Turn" feature, allowing the vehicle to rotate 360 degrees in place by spinning the left and right wheels in opposite directions.

hinkley 2y ago
That’s hell on the tires if they are fixed axle isn’t it?
- _yb2s 2y ago
  Not if you are on a loose offroad surface. The Sherp offroad vehicle for example, only turns this way.
titaniumtown 2y ago
Very neat! I bet it isn't good for the tires though haha.
- HeavenFox 2y ago
  The Mercedes G implementation of this specifically called out not to use this feature on pavement :)
mrkurt 2y ago
This was a demo they did in a video but it's not available to anyone who actually owns one of these. I believe the EV Mercedes G Wagon does have it as a feature though.
Schiendelman 2y ago
Could you edit your comment? This is incorrect. It was a demo, but they chose not to do it because it does so much damage to ground surface, and their vehicles are intended to be used in places like national parks where that matters a lot.
- ulrischa 2y ago

fredsmith219 2y ago

The have a charger very near to where I go in Michigan, and 30 miles from the nearest supercharger. They announced earlier this year that they would open up the RAN “near the end of the year” so I’ve been waiting for this announcement. The fact that they will only gradually modify existing chargers to work with other vehicles is a disappointment. It’s all CCS so it should just be a software update. I am really looking forward to charging my model Y at the Rivian charger. I’m guessing that that will be a long time coming now. Oh well, I guess the Red E charger gets my business for the foreseeable future. They have excellent customer service and they just upgraded the charger to be much faster.

cogman10 2y ago
> It’s all CCS so it should just be a software update. Nope. CCS has to negotiate voltages with the attached vehicle. Unfortunately there isn't a standardized pack voltage and the range of what it can be is anywhere from 400 -> 900V. That can mean new inverter hardware at a location to handle the varying range of voltages that come in. For a single manufacturer, it's easier as the cars and charging stations are more aligned on the supported voltages.
- _ea1k 2y ago
  All CCS cars support 400V charging, though. Just some of them do it much more slowly compared to an 800V charger. This is why Tesla is able to work with CCS, despite superchargers not supporting 800V.
- peutetre 2y ago
  > Unfortunately there isn't a standardized pack voltage and the range of what it can be is anywhere from 400 -> 900V. The CCS spec supports up to 1000 volts. All chargers support variable voltages. A car's pack voltage also changes continuously across the charge curve as the battery's state of charge increases. The pack is at its lowest voltage at 0% state of charge and at its highest at 100%. Here's an example of four cars charging, three at 400 volts and one at 800 volts. You can see how the voltage and amperage change across the charge curve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Cil3seCHM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Cil3seCHM

yalogin 2y ago

Had no idea they had a charging network, but does it really matter? Tesla is so far away ahead of everyone else that I cannot see anyone catching up. Even if they stop making cars Tesla can keep making money off their charging network.

xyst 2y ago

With current charging times, I wonder if EV companies are considering buying up the surrounding land of their charging stations and subsequently leasing the land. Once EV becomes more mainstream/adopted, people are very likely to stay in the area for a long period. Either stay in your vehicle, or grab a nice hot meal for an hour. Maybe vicinity of EV charging stations will revive the “strip mall”

NewJazz 2y ago
Don't assume that present charging speeds will be the typical experience in even a five year horizon. Hyundai's eGMP platform will get you charged up in less than 20 minutes typically. Tesla and others are a little closer to 30 minutes per charge, right now. But that could halve in 5 years, conceivably. Are you really going to invest in land on a 10+ year time frame when the tech is still evolving?

wonder_er 2y ago

bonkers that EVs are known to depend on child labor/slave labor in the DRC to the order of 2kg/5lbs of cobalt PER EV, and people think it's cool to drive them around. When I see them, I think of how broken-hearted I would be for my three year old kid if she were 'employed' in the slave labor industry of cobalt mining in the drc. some EV batteries don't consume cobalt, I concede, but the industry and market and trade and slavery still is created and sustained by the EV industry. I could never. I propose that you consider adding a >125cc scooter to your mobility toolkit. It's a convivial vehicle class.

virgildotcodes 2y ago
Bonkers that the climate change fueled by fossil fuels is leading to children starving to death due to changing weather patterns, more extreme droughts, and my god how many children and adults will live and die in agony as it really kicks in and global mass migrations for survival truly develop, I could never. This was written as someone that drives a gas powered car. Your comment reads like a meme being seeded on the internet by oil companies to muddy support for a transition away from fossil fuels.
stephenr 2y ago
I don't drive an EV but devils advocate is pretty easy here: Bonkers that ICE's are known to contribute to climate change globally and cause air quality issues at a local level, and people think it's cool to drive them around. You're broken hearted for your hypothetical 3 year old in a hypothetical mine, but you don't see a problem with the same hypothetical 3 year old growing up in a world without clean air, with increasingly extreme weather events?

rootusrootus 2y ago

Phased rollout, yes? I heard chatter about this on the Lightning forum earlier today and the comments said it was currently just a single site available to us.

joejohnson 2y ago

How has the US already mucked this up so badly? Just enforce common charger standard like the EU

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bilsbie 2y ago

Side note: why don’t gas stations offer charging? They’re already at good locations and they could drive business to their shops and delis. Especially if they happen to be in a an area with no other chargers around. Don’t even be fancy. Just buy a consumer grade charger with a 220 volt outlet and have the cashier charge $20/hour or something.

ac29 2y ago
Some do, but fast chargers are expensive. L2 AC chargers like you are mentioning would be a terrible fit for a gas station because they are too slow. In my car, which has a small battery, charging for a full hour is only like a 15% charge. No one wants to hang out at a gas station for several hours, and even if they did they arent going to go into the store to buy stuff more than once most likely.

bilsbie 2y ago

Side topic but I’ve thought it would be cool for EV owners to offer their chargers up just for people in emergencies. Battery about to die. You could even charge a big mark up. I’d be willing to help a poor traveler once a week or so. Someone should make a website like that where ev owners can list themselves for emergency charging.

1970-01-01 2y ago
Plugshare.com made that about a decade ago. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a40897680/ev-public-charging-at-private-homes/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a40897680/ev-public-ch...
fillskills 2y ago
Very popular in Asian countries maybe because the EVs there are much smaller such as bikes

bilsbie 2y ago

I think it’s cool how you can essentially gain range when the number of charger locations increases. You can go to lower and lower charge levels if you know there’s a charger every few miles. On the flip side. When there are few chargers you could be forced to charge at 60% battery!

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