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This feels like a huge generalization to me. The US, UK, EU and realistically most developed countries I would say have fairly similar quality of life within m

This feels like a huge generalization to me. The US, UK, EU and realistically most developed countries I would say have fairly similar quality of life within margin of error. I've travelled a fair amount and everywhere is basically the same. For an individual it's really going to come down to lifestyle and what you prefer. Some people like urban living and walkability, if that's you then you probably want Japan or old world metropolitan European cities. Some people want a house on a few acres and national parks the size of countries, if that's you then you probably want the US. Working cultures are different but then there is no average on that either. People on HN tend to assume everyone is an office worker or something which is actually a fairly narrow slice of the middle of the spectrum. Equally though, online (you can see it in this thread) there's sometimes a weird focus on the absolute worst outcomes which I've always found baffling. If you're planning to become a poor fentanyl addict then yeah, don't go to the US, find a country with a safety net, it'll be more fun.

amrocha 2y ago
[flagged]
- lordloki 2y ago
  I can understand this perspective if you've never been here and base it all on what you read online.
  - amrocha 2y ago
    I lived in Canada for 12 years and regularly visited the US for pleasure and work.
    - signatoremo 2y ago
      Versus people who live in the US in this thread who told you otherwise?
      - amrocha 2y ago
        I lived in Connecticut too!
  - kirkpompous 2y ago
    [dead]
- paulsutter 2y ago
  The bizarre thing is that the problems are fixable. The federal government already spends more per capita on healthcare than other developed countries, just that our healthcare is so much more expensive and for no good reason.
  - nradov 2y ago
    Our healthcare system, to the extent that it was intentionally designed at all, implicitly prioritizes consumer choice and immediate access over cost efficiency. While there are certainly gaps in access and affordability, the typical middle-class voter can still get elective care quickly from a variety of local providers. Most other developed countries have longer queues or certain services are less available. We also subsidize drug development costs for the rest of the world. Whether those are good reasons for paying more is a matter of opinion. Of course there's also a certain amount of waste, fraud, and abuse that inflate our costs. https://peterattiamd.com/saumsutaria/ https://peterattiamd.com/saumsutaria/
    - amrocha 2y ago
      The US certainly does not subsidize drugs for the rest of the world. It literally would rather enforce patents than save lives. And there are no long queues for healthcare where I live. Service is cheap and insurance is nationalized.
      - sib 2y ago
        > The US certainly does not subsidize drugs for the rest of the world. It literally does. The costs of producing drugs are mostly borne by the US market, allowing drug manufacturers to charge less elsewhere while still investing the billions of dollars necessary to develop the drugs.
        amrocha 2y ago
        If you think that’s for the benefit of the rest of the world then I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
- narrator 2y ago
  Most of the murders are just in a few zip codes[1]. In some cities they are literally concentrated in a few city blocks. So if you move to the U.S don't live in obvious high crime areas and you'll be fine. The best way to tell if an area is high crime is to look for Starbucks. The more comfortable the seating in the Starbucks, the less crime there is. High crime areas have no Starbucks or they have Starbucks without seating or bathrooms. These are known as "Problem" Starbucks and they progressively remove things like outlets, seating, toilets, operating hours until problems stop. If things don't improve, they just close. [1] https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/ https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-u...
  - amrocha 2y ago
    I personally would like to live somewhere where all the starbucks are comfortable. That’s why I live in Tokyo.
    - bpt3 2y ago
      So you felt like living in Canada gave you a clear understanding of the high cost of living and low wages in the US (we'll ignore how wrong you are about this for the moment), and your example of a more affordable place to live is... Tokyo? Thanks for making it clear I should treat your posts as a regurgitation of terminally online zoomer talking points from here on out.
      - amrocha 2y ago
        Yes, Tokyo is WAY more affordable than any city in Canada or the US. And I lived in Connecticut too btw, but Canada was longer and more relevant since I visited a lot more of the US while living in canada.
    - corimaith 2y ago
      I'd agree Tokyo or East Asian Cities certainly has a much better quality of life than the dump that is the Bay Area, but if take everything bad about the US labour market that's pretty much amped to 100 in Asian societies and for lower pay and longer hours. You won't have the time to enjoy much of that comfort in the same way as you might in a vacation. Anybody ambitious would agree it's still far more optimal to work in a USA and build a career there first before moving to Asia as an expat to better negotiate terms. And even then, the supply of interesting jobs there is going be much less.
- lurking_swe 2y ago
  What you read online can definitely sway your opinion, especially if you’ve never traveled to or lived in that country for an extended period of time. It can give you a misleading perspective. I’ve lived in both EU and US, and EU definitely has the better quality of life for the average person. I 100% agree. However if you are at all an ambitious youngster with huge dreams, the EU is where dreams go to die lol. EU living is what i’d call “coasting in life”. It’s a safe, sheltered life, the government is very functional and “takes care” of you which i’m sure is comforting for many. It’s not for everyone though. In other words, I would recommend the typical person moves to the EU if they have the opportunity. Their quality of life would improve and they would be happier. For anyone that’s very ambitious or very talented at something, your efforts will pay off 10x in the US, and you’ll have a better quality of life than your EU counterparts.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - amrocha 2y ago
    I’m not reading anything online, I literally lived in Canada for 12 years and saw first hand how awful the US is. You would have to pay me a lot to live there, which explains the astronomical wages for tech workers. And I disagree about your efforts paying off more in the US. In a couple areas like tech sure, but most people would be better off somewhere else.
    - eitally 2y ago
      That doesn't explain the astronomical wages for tech workers at all. Tech workers are paid highly because their employers are generating huge revenues per employee and the cost of living in these coastal hubs is exceptional [even before the most recent tech boom]. Tech workers not in Seattle, Bay Area, LA/Irvine, Boston, NYC and DC/NoVA are not getting paid nearly the same as tech workers in those places. Even in Chicago, Miami, Houston, Austin, Denver, Boulder, Raleigh, Charlotte, Philly -- they're all 20% or more lower comp. And what I'm not sure most folks on the outside looking in realize is just how much better tech companies pay for tech roles than non-tech companies pay for the same roles (usually in "IT" organizations). A SWE with 5yr experience at Google might be making $325k/yr total comp, but a SWE with 5yr experience at a F500 manufacturing company might be making $100k (and possibly working on harder problems).
- BurningFrog 2y ago
  American wages are quite a bit higher than European on average: https://www.worlddata.info/average-income.php?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.worlddata.info/average-income.php?utm_source=cha...
  - amrocha 2y ago
    And most of that money goes to higher food prices, health insurance and cars.
    - golemiprague 2y ago
      Certainly food and cars is not more expensive than most European countries. Health insurance is also not that much expensive, it is only the way you pay it which in Europe is by tax. There is the issue of not being covered if you don't have a job but that's has nothing to do with price. The US is one of the cheapest countries in the world with pretty decent salaries and endless variation in house prices, there also always cheaper cities or alternative states. Try that in Europe or Australia or Canada, good luck.
    - Matticus_Rex 2y ago
      No, it really doesn't. PPP-adjusted disposable income per capita (meaning, after all the necessary expenses) is by far the highest in the world: https://www.statista.com/statistics/725764/oecd-household-disposable-income-per-capita/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/725764/oecd-household-di... Food spending as a portion of total expenditure is the lowest in the world: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/food-expenditure-share-gdp https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/food-expenditure-share-gd... Out of pocket health care expenditure as a share of GDP per capita is fairly low in comparison with other wealthy nations. Of European nations, only Monaco, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and France are lower (and not by much!). Transportation spending is indeed higher in the US than most of the developed world, but it doesn't eat away much at the increased disposable income per capita -- proportionate to household income we're talking about a few thousand dollars higher, and most of that is a very recent development as costs went way up over the last few years.
    - Auracle 2y ago
- educasean 2y ago
  Are you saying that for people making median level of income, the US is a horrible place to live compared to the rest of the world? As someone who was able to experience both perspectives (immigrated to the US and became a citizen) I cannot agree at all with this statement.
  - amrocha 2y ago
    Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. Keep in mind median income is 37K, 50K in cities. If you think you can live a fulfilling life on that income then I’d be impressed.
    - educasean 2y ago
      For you, the question is theoretical. For me, I've lived it. Before I transitioned into software, I had a very a fulfilling life being paid a mediocre salary as a graphic designer, supporting my family for years and investing plenty of time and money into my hobbies. I don't know how to convince you of the very real experience I and many others here are having, and I don't really feel like it's a good use of my time. Feel free to keep holding onto your theories.
      - amrocha 2y ago
        Really happy for you mate! This isn’t theoretical for me either :) I’m glad your experience was good, but I don’t think that holds true for most people.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      Median household income is way higher than 37K. More like 80k+
      - amrocha 2y ago
        Ok, well I’m a person and not a household so i’ll stick with my number.
- csa 2y ago
  Are you on the outside looking in, and this is what the US looks like to you? My commentary as someone on the inside who has also been on the outside looking in: > Incredibly expensive, low wages Pick one. Wages trend higher where it’s expensive. Wages trend lower where it’s not. There are also tough-to-see subsidies like prop 13 and rent control in CA (as an example). Currently the US appears expensive from the outside due to a strong dollar. From the inside, it’s more nuanced — specifically, the distribution of wealth across the capital class and the worker class is skewing much more towards the capital class than at any time in our lives, but is trending towards a common state if looking at a longer time scale. > no safety net, No European-style safety net. Japan doesn’t have a safety net either. Is it “horrible”? The US has a substantial safety net via charity. Most of the people seen in the news who need it (e.g., homeless folks) choose not to use it, since it comes with restrictions like not being on drugs. > car and health insurance are mandatory, Yay? Fwiw, health insurance is federally subsidized for low income folks. Car insurance is a good thing, imho. > homelessness everywhere, In many cities, yes. Outside of those… not really. If you don’t live or work in a city, this is only something you see on TV. > gun violence is rampant, None of my friends, family, or acquaintances in my entire life have been a victim of gun violence. I know of three people who committed suicide with their own guns (which is counted in “gun violence numbers”), but I don’t think that’s what you’re referring to. I realize that’s a class issue, and that there is more gun violence in the US than in Europe, but it’s just not part of the day-to-day reality for most people. > and the government is a dictatorship disguised as a democracy Objectively not true, at least for now. The system of checks and balances baked into the US system is failing tragically at the moment, but we are not at the level of a dictatorship yet. > No one would actively choose to live there if it wasn’t for high salaries in certain fields. I don’t think that this is universally true. I know plenty of immigrants who make their money, retire, and choose to stay in the US. Some people go back, but a lot stay, and with purpose.
  - amrocha 2y ago
    > Are you on the outside looking in, and this is what the US looks like to you? No, I lived in Canada for 12 years, my family lived in the US for 6 years, and I regularly visited for work and pleasure. My first hand experience is that the US is a shithole. > Pick one. Wages trend higher where it’s expensive. Wages trend lower where it’s not. No. Slightly higher wages do not offset the incredible cost of living in cities. And likewise, if you live in a cheap area you still have to compete with everyone else for certain goods. > Japan doesn’t have a safety net either. Is it “horrible”? Japan does have a safety net. > The US has a substantial safety net via charity lol. Guess I'll die unless Jeff Bezos decides to give me money. > Fwiw, health insurance is federally subsidized for low income folks. It should be federally covered for everyone in the country. > None of my friends, family, or acquaintances in my entire life have been a victim of gun violence Yes, that's statistics for you. I'm Brazilian but I haven't been murdered even though lots of people are murdered in Brazil. > I know of three people who committed suicide with their own guns This is gun violence. > it’s just not part of the day-to-day reality for most people. It literally is. A ton of people own guns for "protection", because what if the other person has a gun. There are areas of cities you avoid because they're dangerous. If you get stopped in your car by a cop, there's a non-zero chance you will get shot. Kids literally have active shooter drills in school. It literally is part of day-to-day reality for most people. You're just in it so you don't realize it. > The system of checks and balances baked into the US system is failing tragically at the moment, but we are not at the level of a dictatorship yet. Yes you are. You get a choice between two parties who are basically the same. 70% of the country's vote is thrown away in federal elections. A vote in Wyoming counts for 4x more than a vote in California. Counties are gerrymandered so badly your vote doesn't matter even in local elections. Voter suppression is table stakes. That's not a democracy.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- themaninthedark 2y ago
  Your comment is interesting to me as a comment further up sates that: "People move from China to India despite the higher prices in America precisely because the increase in wages is more than enough to offset the higher prices." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42321211 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42321211 So while expensive holds, the low wages does not. > no safety net There are safety nets in the US, just not one singular one nor is it always easy to apply or get benefits. > car and health insurance are mandatory What countries don't have mandatory car insurance? Which ones don't have mandatory health insurance?(Universal health care doesn't count, as that is mandatory and taken from taxes.) Further, you can eschew health insurance in the US. Many people do(for various reasons, cost being one of them), it is just not that wise of a move as healthcare here is very expensive. > gun violence is rampant We have pockets of areas where violence, not just gun, is rampant. I think a fairer analysis shows that it is the intersection of poverty and also drugs but I can not speak fully to this topic. >the government is a dictatorship disguised as a democracy. Is this talking about the current government(Joe Biden?), the future administration(Donald Trump) or the administrative government(deep state?)? I would agree that our government is not functioning as well as it could, I am also not sure if I have seen any other governments do any better. Japan: Due process with police holding suspects and trying to force confessions. South Korea: Recent Martial Law issue France: Numerous protests occurring Great Britain: Prime Minister just told all farmers "If you don't like the changes we have implemented, you can leave." Protests and counter protests with violence on both sides but police seem more focused on arresting people for social media posts. I can't think of any recent issues from the Scandinavian countries but that is more likely due to my lack of exposure to media than lack of issues. Please let me know which countries you find to be great.
  - amrocha 2y ago
    Yeah, every country has its problems, but that doesn’t mean they’re all as bad as each other. Yes, Japan has a problem with allowing police to hold suspects for 3 weeks with no outside contact. But the reality is that very few people are ever arrested, to the point that nobody is afraid of police. The same can’t be said for the US, where black parents have to tell their kids to not trust cops. In my experience Japan is pretty great, so that’s where I live. Other places I consider top tier are Holland and Scandinavia. Western Europe and developed Asia is tier 2, some of Eastern Europe and Canada are tier 3, USA and most of South America are tier 4, and any other countries I wouldn’t live in.
- VirusNewbie 2y ago
  I have an objectively higher QoL than almost anyone in the EU or Japan who wasn't born rich. After many years as a SWE without a college degree, I was able to buy a large 5 new 5 bedroom house within ~25 minutes of my employer in a beautiful city, I have a full time nanny for my children, a luxury car, padded retirement, and plenty of other money to buy what I want. Where else can a smart, hardworking person achieve that who didn't come from generational wealth? I'm not so unique either, I have some friends I've known who similarly didn't come from money and have been able to build up careers that support a wonderful lifestyle.
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    Europeans have a bottomless admiration for generational wealth (old money), and equivalently despise individual success (nouveau riche). Centuries of monarchy does that to the spirit of a people.
  - amrocha 2y ago
    Yeah dude, you’re just rich. Most people aren’t, and wouldn’t be even if they were in the US.
    - VirusNewbie 2y ago
      I can’t retire and continue my current lifestyle, I would need some sort of job. Therefore, I don’t consider myself rich. More importantly though, I have this lifestyle due to a job, one that is quite common (software engineer). I didn’t luck into some unique position or business opportunity.
      - amrocha 2y ago
        I’m happy that you don’t consider yourself rich with your 5 bedroom house and full time nanny, but that’s what you are. You’re rich. And yes, software engineers stand to profit from moving to the US. There’s very few other jobs like it though.
- Aurornis 2y ago
  > The USA is a horrible country to anyone looking in from the outside. When I was at a multinational corporation we had people from our EU and Asia offices fly out to the United States for a couple weeks at a time (their choice). We'd go out to lunch every day and some of us would have them over for dinner at our houses to get to know them. Many of them were young and had developed their idea of the US from Reddit, Twitter, and TikTok. They'd show up thinking they were walking into a hellscape of a country because that's what they saw on Reddit. It was a rite of passage for all of them to slowly realize that the US in person is different than the US according to Reddit or TikTok. One example that came up frequently was minimum wage. Reddit talks about the federal minimum wage all the time as if Americans everywhere are making minimum wage. We'd have to explain that our state minimum wage was significantly higher than the federal minimum wage. We'd also explain that it's basically impossible to find a job paying that minimum wage right now because even the post office and local fast food places were hiring at higher wages. The list went on and on. I remember several coworkers who went from thinking the US was a horrible country to asking us to sponsor their moves to the US. > No one would actively choose to live there if it wasn’t for high salaries in certain fields. That's a chronically online take, but it's completely wrong. Immigration demand to the United States is extremely high, even for jobs that don't pay high salaries.
  - amrocha 2y ago
    I have literally lived in the US before. I spent 12 years in Canada, right next to the US as well. Awful place to live. And of course your multinational coworkers want to move there. They’d make a lot of money to insulate them from the awfulness. Not to mention a huge raise compared to working in their home country.
    - BobbyJo 2y ago
      > I have literally lived in the US before. I spent 12 years in Canada, right next to the US as well. Awful place to live. How long did you live in the US? And what part of Canada did you live in to be near the US? Most of the Canadian border is sparsely populated on the US side. So I can't see how being in Canada would give you much of a feel for median/mean U.S. life.
- toephu2 2y ago
  I don't think you know what dictatorship means. Anyone living in a real dictatorship would be offended by your comment.
- niceice 2y ago
  Then you'll be surprised to learn that the USA is the country that attracts the most international migrants by far. https://www.statista.com/chart/30815/top-destination-countries-for-international-migrants/ https://www.statista.com/chart/30815/top-destination-countri...
  - amrocha 2y ago
    Yeah sure, the US is better than India and it has a large scale immigration program, doesn’t mean people would choose to move there if they had other choices.
    - 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
      The US easily tops this survey of desired migration destinations FYI: https://news.gallup.com/poll/468218/nearly-900-million-worldwide-wanted-migrate-2021.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/468218/nearly-900-million-world...
      - amrocha 2y ago
        Lots of reasons for that, still don’t mean it’s a good place to live.
        buttercraft 2y ago
        Which place? It's large and diverse
        amrocha 2y ago
        [flagged]
        dang 2y ago
        Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. Nationalistic flamebait in particular is not welcome here (regardless of nation). If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
shusson 2y ago
> The US, UK, EU and realistically most developed countries I would say have fairly similar quality of life within margin of error. Having lived in the EU (Netherlands) and the US (California), I would say the inequality in the US is much worse. Especially in larger cities. To the point where I sometimes wonder if I'm living in a "developed" country.
- naming_the_user 2y ago
  I'm British. When I visit the US I would agree that inequality is significantly higher, but it also seems quite clear that overall wealth is significantly higher too. Second and third tier cities in the US are clearly still fairly well off in a way that just isn't the case across Europe. The thing I tend to always fall back on is the last part of my comment. You don't want to be poor in the US; there is no bottom. Whereas if you're poor in Europe usually there's a minimum standard that you'll fall to. For most people the relevant factor I think is what the QoL in their cohort is like. I say it's a bit of a wash, because basically, if we limit the discussion to EU and US, if you're well off the US is probably better, if you're poor Europe is probably better, if you're in the middle then there are trade offs.
  - eastbound 2y ago
    Do I want to live in a country where it’s comfortable to be poor? That implies everything from people defending poor as a lifestyle, such as classmates insistently you that working in class is a stupid lifestyle choice, to people joining the country on the basis that they don’t like producing much, and living in a general country that is second at everything (or falls down to Chile level in terms of studying math in school). If I had a passport for the US, I’d move yesterday.
    - reacharavindh 2y ago
      There is more to life than "producing much" and "getting rich". There is no single answer and it depends on preferences and tradeoffs. But, labeling an ideology that takes care of the unfortunate, and lets the people live life without "if you dont produce much or work every minute of your life towards getting rich" as lazy or incentivising to be poor is just naive and ignorant. I'm saying as someone from Asia having lived equal number of years in both US and EU.
ricardobayes 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_quality_of_life_indices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_quality_of_life_indices
data_maan 2y ago
> The US, UK, EU and realistically most developed countries I would say have fairly similar quality of life within margin of error. Ahem... Have you seen the standards in the UK get diluted year after year post-Brexit? There's more to the story than the listed examples. Environmental standards dictate your risk of developing various diseases later in life so are a big difference in quality of life. E.g., if you drink tap water from UK vs other countries, with high PFAS levels, where it essentially comes from a spring in the mountains - that's a huge difference. Another difference is job security which again has a huge impact. Consider France: If you get an unlimited contract at a company you're essentially set for life (unless the company goes busy, or you mess up in a very bad way). Compare that to the scare many US dev employees hat to ensure in spring 2023 when all the big tech companies were doing layoffs. Also, France had a much shorter work week. So, no, quality of life doesn't even compare remotely between these countries. Only perhaps for the upper 3% it is similar - if you're an average tech dev, your life will be much much nicer in Paris than in a random SF/LA suburb.
- naming_the_user 2y ago
  I guess I have a physicist mindset but basically I feel that these things are within margin of error. We're talking 20%, 40%, whatever. And because the lifestyle is so different it's hard to compare directly, it depends on your personal vision of what you want in life, as I mentioned some people want Paris, some people want the mountains. I do think that if you're going to live in a Big City(tm) then the old world just does cities better. Then again I haven't visited SF, just NYC. Job security isn't something I've ever cared about in my life. Starting from zero (no parental wealth), beyond about age 20-22 I've always had a minimum of six months savings, who cares, just find another job. It's business, you're not married. If you're an actual adult and you need a job continuously to get by you've fucked up somewhere. It kind of just feels like a leverage decision, anyone middle class or above has a net worth in the x00k's, it's just about whether you have anything liquid vs locked up in home value etc. If you have 0 in the bank then unless you're in North Korea or something you have bigger issues than "which country has better QoL" in my opinion, you need to work on yourself first.
  - 2y ago
KaiserPro 2y ago
> UK [..] realistically most developed countries Its also really uneven. It contained in 2016 6 of the lowest GDP per captia regions of the entire EU. However we should of course treat GDP as a suspect measure of living standards. Whilst those people living in those areas will tend to have curtail life chances, they did at the time have access to _good_ healthcare and housing (in certain circumstances)
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

amrocha 2y ago

[flagged]

lordloki 2y ago
I can understand this perspective if you've never been here and base it all on what you read online.
- amrocha 2y ago
  I lived in Canada for 12 years and regularly visited the US for pleasure and work.
  - signatoremo 2y ago
    Versus people who live in the US in this thread who told you otherwise?
    - amrocha 2y ago
      I lived in Connecticut too!
- kirkpompous 2y ago
  [dead]
paulsutter 2y ago
The bizarre thing is that the problems are fixable. The federal government already spends more per capita on healthcare than other developed countries, just that our healthcare is so much more expensive and for no good reason.
- nradov 2y ago
  Our healthcare system, to the extent that it was intentionally designed at all, implicitly prioritizes consumer choice and immediate access over cost efficiency. While there are certainly gaps in access and affordability, the typical middle-class voter can still get elective care quickly from a variety of local providers. Most other developed countries have longer queues or certain services are less available. We also subsidize drug development costs for the rest of the world. Whether those are good reasons for paying more is a matter of opinion. Of course there's also a certain amount of waste, fraud, and abuse that inflate our costs. https://peterattiamd.com/saumsutaria/ https://peterattiamd.com/saumsutaria/
  - amrocha 2y ago
    The US certainly does not subsidize drugs for the rest of the world. It literally would rather enforce patents than save lives. And there are no long queues for healthcare where I live. Service is cheap and insurance is nationalized.
    - sib 2y ago
      > The US certainly does not subsidize drugs for the rest of the world. It literally does. The costs of producing drugs are mostly borne by the US market, allowing drug manufacturers to charge less elsewhere while still investing the billions of dollars necessary to develop the drugs.
      - amrocha 2y ago
        If you think that’s for the benefit of the rest of the world then I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
narrator 2y ago
Most of the murders are just in a few zip codes[1]. In some cities they are literally concentrated in a few city blocks. So if you move to the U.S don't live in obvious high crime areas and you'll be fine. The best way to tell if an area is high crime is to look for Starbucks. The more comfortable the seating in the Starbucks, the less crime there is. High crime areas have no Starbucks or they have Starbucks without seating or bathrooms. These are known as "Problem" Starbucks and they progressively remove things like outlets, seating, toilets, operating hours until problems stop. If things don't improve, they just close. [1] https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/ https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-u...
- amrocha 2y ago
  I personally would like to live somewhere where all the starbucks are comfortable. That’s why I live in Tokyo.
  - bpt3 2y ago
    So you felt like living in Canada gave you a clear understanding of the high cost of living and low wages in the US (we'll ignore how wrong you are about this for the moment), and your example of a more affordable place to live is... Tokyo? Thanks for making it clear I should treat your posts as a regurgitation of terminally online zoomer talking points from here on out.
    - amrocha 2y ago
      Yes, Tokyo is WAY more affordable than any city in Canada or the US. And I lived in Connecticut too btw, but Canada was longer and more relevant since I visited a lot more of the US while living in canada.
  - corimaith 2y ago
    I'd agree Tokyo or East Asian Cities certainly has a much better quality of life than the dump that is the Bay Area, but if take everything bad about the US labour market that's pretty much amped to 100 in Asian societies and for lower pay and longer hours. You won't have the time to enjoy much of that comfort in the same way as you might in a vacation. Anybody ambitious would agree it's still far more optimal to work in a USA and build a career there first before moving to Asia as an expat to better negotiate terms. And even then, the supply of interesting jobs there is going be much less.
lurking_swe 2y ago
What you read online can definitely sway your opinion, especially if you’ve never traveled to or lived in that country for an extended period of time. It can give you a misleading perspective. I’ve lived in both EU and US, and EU definitely has the better quality of life for the average person. I 100% agree. However if you are at all an ambitious youngster with huge dreams, the EU is where dreams go to die lol. EU living is what i’d call “coasting in life”. It’s a safe, sheltered life, the government is very functional and “takes care” of you which i’m sure is comforting for many. It’s not for everyone though. In other words, I would recommend the typical person moves to the EU if they have the opportunity. Their quality of life would improve and they would be happier. For anyone that’s very ambitious or very talented at something, your efforts will pay off 10x in the US, and you’ll have a better quality of life than your EU counterparts.
- deleted 2y ago
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- amrocha 2y ago
  I’m not reading anything online, I literally lived in Canada for 12 years and saw first hand how awful the US is. You would have to pay me a lot to live there, which explains the astronomical wages for tech workers. And I disagree about your efforts paying off more in the US. In a couple areas like tech sure, but most people would be better off somewhere else.
  - eitally 2y ago
    That doesn't explain the astronomical wages for tech workers at all. Tech workers are paid highly because their employers are generating huge revenues per employee and the cost of living in these coastal hubs is exceptional [even before the most recent tech boom]. Tech workers not in Seattle, Bay Area, LA/Irvine, Boston, NYC and DC/NoVA are not getting paid nearly the same as tech workers in those places. Even in Chicago, Miami, Houston, Austin, Denver, Boulder, Raleigh, Charlotte, Philly -- they're all 20% or more lower comp. And what I'm not sure most folks on the outside looking in realize is just how much better tech companies pay for tech roles than non-tech companies pay for the same roles (usually in "IT" organizations). A SWE with 5yr experience at Google might be making $325k/yr total comp, but a SWE with 5yr experience at a F500 manufacturing company might be making $100k (and possibly working on harder problems).
BurningFrog 2y ago
American wages are quite a bit higher than European on average: https://www.worlddata.info/average-income.php?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.worlddata.info/average-income.php?utm_source=cha...
- amrocha 2y ago
  And most of that money goes to higher food prices, health insurance and cars.
  - golemiprague 2y ago
    Certainly food and cars is not more expensive than most European countries. Health insurance is also not that much expensive, it is only the way you pay it which in Europe is by tax. There is the issue of not being covered if you don't have a job but that's has nothing to do with price. The US is one of the cheapest countries in the world with pretty decent salaries and endless variation in house prices, there also always cheaper cities or alternative states. Try that in Europe or Australia or Canada, good luck.
  - Matticus_Rex 2y ago
    No, it really doesn't. PPP-adjusted disposable income per capita (meaning, after all the necessary expenses) is by far the highest in the world: https://www.statista.com/statistics/725764/oecd-household-disposable-income-per-capita/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/725764/oecd-household-di... Food spending as a portion of total expenditure is the lowest in the world: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/food-expenditure-share-gdp https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/food-expenditure-share-gd... Out of pocket health care expenditure as a share of GDP per capita is fairly low in comparison with other wealthy nations. Of European nations, only Monaco, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and France are lower (and not by much!). Transportation spending is indeed higher in the US than most of the developed world, but it doesn't eat away much at the increased disposable income per capita -- proportionate to household income we're talking about a few thousand dollars higher, and most of that is a very recent development as costs went way up over the last few years.
  - Auracle 2y ago
educasean 2y ago
Are you saying that for people making median level of income, the US is a horrible place to live compared to the rest of the world? As someone who was able to experience both perspectives (immigrated to the US and became a citizen) I cannot agree at all with this statement.
- amrocha 2y ago
  Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. Keep in mind median income is 37K, 50K in cities. If you think you can live a fulfilling life on that income then I’d be impressed.
  - educasean 2y ago
    For you, the question is theoretical. For me, I've lived it. Before I transitioned into software, I had a very a fulfilling life being paid a mediocre salary as a graphic designer, supporting my family for years and investing plenty of time and money into my hobbies. I don't know how to convince you of the very real experience I and many others here are having, and I don't really feel like it's a good use of my time. Feel free to keep holding onto your theories.
    - amrocha 2y ago
      Really happy for you mate! This isn’t theoretical for me either :) I’m glad your experience was good, but I don’t think that holds true for most people.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    Median household income is way higher than 37K. More like 80k+
    - amrocha 2y ago
      Ok, well I’m a person and not a household so i’ll stick with my number.
csa 2y ago
Are you on the outside looking in, and this is what the US looks like to you? My commentary as someone on the inside who has also been on the outside looking in: > Incredibly expensive, low wages Pick one. Wages trend higher where it’s expensive. Wages trend lower where it’s not. There are also tough-to-see subsidies like prop 13 and rent control in CA (as an example). Currently the US appears expensive from the outside due to a strong dollar. From the inside, it’s more nuanced — specifically, the distribution of wealth across the capital class and the worker class is skewing much more towards the capital class than at any time in our lives, but is trending towards a common state if looking at a longer time scale. > no safety net, No European-style safety net. Japan doesn’t have a safety net either. Is it “horrible”? The US has a substantial safety net via charity. Most of the people seen in the news who need it (e.g., homeless folks) choose not to use it, since it comes with restrictions like not being on drugs. > car and health insurance are mandatory, Yay? Fwiw, health insurance is federally subsidized for low income folks. Car insurance is a good thing, imho. > homelessness everywhere, In many cities, yes. Outside of those… not really. If you don’t live or work in a city, this is only something you see on TV. > gun violence is rampant, None of my friends, family, or acquaintances in my entire life have been a victim of gun violence. I know of three people who committed suicide with their own guns (which is counted in “gun violence numbers”), but I don’t think that’s what you’re referring to. I realize that’s a class issue, and that there is more gun violence in the US than in Europe, but it’s just not part of the day-to-day reality for most people. > and the government is a dictatorship disguised as a democracy Objectively not true, at least for now. The system of checks and balances baked into the US system is failing tragically at the moment, but we are not at the level of a dictatorship yet. > No one would actively choose to live there if it wasn’t for high salaries in certain fields. I don’t think that this is universally true. I know plenty of immigrants who make their money, retire, and choose to stay in the US. Some people go back, but a lot stay, and with purpose.
- amrocha 2y ago
  > Are you on the outside looking in, and this is what the US looks like to you? No, I lived in Canada for 12 years, my family lived in the US for 6 years, and I regularly visited for work and pleasure. My first hand experience is that the US is a shithole. > Pick one. Wages trend higher where it’s expensive. Wages trend lower where it’s not. No. Slightly higher wages do not offset the incredible cost of living in cities. And likewise, if you live in a cheap area you still have to compete with everyone else for certain goods. > Japan doesn’t have a safety net either. Is it “horrible”? Japan does have a safety net. > The US has a substantial safety net via charity lol. Guess I'll die unless Jeff Bezos decides to give me money. > Fwiw, health insurance is federally subsidized for low income folks. It should be federally covered for everyone in the country. > None of my friends, family, or acquaintances in my entire life have been a victim of gun violence Yes, that's statistics for you. I'm Brazilian but I haven't been murdered even though lots of people are murdered in Brazil. > I know of three people who committed suicide with their own guns This is gun violence. > it’s just not part of the day-to-day reality for most people. It literally is. A ton of people own guns for "protection", because what if the other person has a gun. There are areas of cities you avoid because they're dangerous. If you get stopped in your car by a cop, there's a non-zero chance you will get shot. Kids literally have active shooter drills in school. It literally is part of day-to-day reality for most people. You're just in it so you don't realize it. > The system of checks and balances baked into the US system is failing tragically at the moment, but we are not at the level of a dictatorship yet. Yes you are. You get a choice between two parties who are basically the same. 70% of the country's vote is thrown away in federal elections. A vote in Wyoming counts for 4x more than a vote in California. Counties are gerrymandered so badly your vote doesn't matter even in local elections. Voter suppression is table stakes. That's not a democracy.
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themaninthedark 2y ago
Your comment is interesting to me as a comment further up sates that: "People move from China to India despite the higher prices in America precisely because the increase in wages is more than enough to offset the higher prices." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42321211 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42321211 So while expensive holds, the low wages does not. > no safety net There are safety nets in the US, just not one singular one nor is it always easy to apply or get benefits. > car and health insurance are mandatory What countries don't have mandatory car insurance? Which ones don't have mandatory health insurance?(Universal health care doesn't count, as that is mandatory and taken from taxes.) Further, you can eschew health insurance in the US. Many people do(for various reasons, cost being one of them), it is just not that wise of a move as healthcare here is very expensive. > gun violence is rampant We have pockets of areas where violence, not just gun, is rampant. I think a fairer analysis shows that it is the intersection of poverty and also drugs but I can not speak fully to this topic. >the government is a dictatorship disguised as a democracy. Is this talking about the current government(Joe Biden?), the future administration(Donald Trump) or the administrative government(deep state?)? I would agree that our government is not functioning as well as it could, I am also not sure if I have seen any other governments do any better. Japan: Due process with police holding suspects and trying to force confessions. South Korea: Recent Martial Law issue France: Numerous protests occurring Great Britain: Prime Minister just told all farmers "If you don't like the changes we have implemented, you can leave." Protests and counter protests with violence on both sides but police seem more focused on arresting people for social media posts. I can't think of any recent issues from the Scandinavian countries but that is more likely due to my lack of exposure to media than lack of issues. Please let me know which countries you find to be great.
- amrocha 2y ago
  Yeah, every country has its problems, but that doesn’t mean they’re all as bad as each other. Yes, Japan has a problem with allowing police to hold suspects for 3 weeks with no outside contact. But the reality is that very few people are ever arrested, to the point that nobody is afraid of police. The same can’t be said for the US, where black parents have to tell their kids to not trust cops. In my experience Japan is pretty great, so that’s where I live. Other places I consider top tier are Holland and Scandinavia. Western Europe and developed Asia is tier 2, some of Eastern Europe and Canada are tier 3, USA and most of South America are tier 4, and any other countries I wouldn’t live in.
VirusNewbie 2y ago
I have an objectively higher QoL than almost anyone in the EU or Japan who wasn't born rich. After many years as a SWE without a college degree, I was able to buy a large 5 new 5 bedroom house within ~25 minutes of my employer in a beautiful city, I have a full time nanny for my children, a luxury car, padded retirement, and plenty of other money to buy what I want. Where else can a smart, hardworking person achieve that who didn't come from generational wealth? I'm not so unique either, I have some friends I've known who similarly didn't come from money and have been able to build up careers that support a wonderful lifestyle.
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  Europeans have a bottomless admiration for generational wealth (old money), and equivalently despise individual success (nouveau riche). Centuries of monarchy does that to the spirit of a people.
- amrocha 2y ago
  Yeah dude, you’re just rich. Most people aren’t, and wouldn’t be even if they were in the US.
  - VirusNewbie 2y ago
    I can’t retire and continue my current lifestyle, I would need some sort of job. Therefore, I don’t consider myself rich. More importantly though, I have this lifestyle due to a job, one that is quite common (software engineer). I didn’t luck into some unique position or business opportunity.
    - amrocha 2y ago
      I’m happy that you don’t consider yourself rich with your 5 bedroom house and full time nanny, but that’s what you are. You’re rich. And yes, software engineers stand to profit from moving to the US. There’s very few other jobs like it though.
Aurornis 2y ago
> The USA is a horrible country to anyone looking in from the outside. When I was at a multinational corporation we had people from our EU and Asia offices fly out to the United States for a couple weeks at a time (their choice). We'd go out to lunch every day and some of us would have them over for dinner at our houses to get to know them. Many of them were young and had developed their idea of the US from Reddit, Twitter, and TikTok. They'd show up thinking they were walking into a hellscape of a country because that's what they saw on Reddit. It was a rite of passage for all of them to slowly realize that the US in person is different than the US according to Reddit or TikTok. One example that came up frequently was minimum wage. Reddit talks about the federal minimum wage all the time as if Americans everywhere are making minimum wage. We'd have to explain that our state minimum wage was significantly higher than the federal minimum wage. We'd also explain that it's basically impossible to find a job paying that minimum wage right now because even the post office and local fast food places were hiring at higher wages. The list went on and on. I remember several coworkers who went from thinking the US was a horrible country to asking us to sponsor their moves to the US. > No one would actively choose to live there if it wasn’t for high salaries in certain fields. That's a chronically online take, but it's completely wrong. Immigration demand to the United States is extremely high, even for jobs that don't pay high salaries.
- amrocha 2y ago
  I have literally lived in the US before. I spent 12 years in Canada, right next to the US as well. Awful place to live. And of course your multinational coworkers want to move there. They’d make a lot of money to insulate them from the awfulness. Not to mention a huge raise compared to working in their home country.
  - BobbyJo 2y ago
    > I have literally lived in the US before. I spent 12 years in Canada, right next to the US as well. Awful place to live. How long did you live in the US? And what part of Canada did you live in to be near the US? Most of the Canadian border is sparsely populated on the US side. So I can't see how being in Canada would give you much of a feel for median/mean U.S. life.
toephu2 2y ago
I don't think you know what dictatorship means. Anyone living in a real dictatorship would be offended by your comment.
niceice 2y ago
Then you'll be surprised to learn that the USA is the country that attracts the most international migrants by far. https://www.statista.com/chart/30815/top-destination-countries-for-international-migrants/ https://www.statista.com/chart/30815/top-destination-countri...
- amrocha 2y ago
  Yeah sure, the US is better than India and it has a large scale immigration program, doesn’t mean people would choose to move there if they had other choices.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
    The US easily tops this survey of desired migration destinations FYI: https://news.gallup.com/poll/468218/nearly-900-million-worldwide-wanted-migrate-2021.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/468218/nearly-900-million-world...
    - amrocha 2y ago
      Lots of reasons for that, still don’t mean it’s a good place to live.
      - buttercraft 2y ago
        Which place? It's large and diverse
        amrocha 2y ago
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        dang 2y ago
        Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. Nationalistic flamebait in particular is not welcome here (regardless of nation). If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

shusson 2y ago

> The US, UK, EU and realistically most developed countries I would say have fairly similar quality of life within margin of error. Having lived in the EU (Netherlands) and the US (California), I would say the inequality in the US is much worse. Especially in larger cities. To the point where I sometimes wonder if I'm living in a "developed" country.

naming_the_user 2y ago
I'm British. When I visit the US I would agree that inequality is significantly higher, but it also seems quite clear that overall wealth is significantly higher too. Second and third tier cities in the US are clearly still fairly well off in a way that just isn't the case across Europe. The thing I tend to always fall back on is the last part of my comment. You don't want to be poor in the US; there is no bottom. Whereas if you're poor in Europe usually there's a minimum standard that you'll fall to. For most people the relevant factor I think is what the QoL in their cohort is like. I say it's a bit of a wash, because basically, if we limit the discussion to EU and US, if you're well off the US is probably better, if you're poor Europe is probably better, if you're in the middle then there are trade offs.
- eastbound 2y ago
  Do I want to live in a country where it’s comfortable to be poor? That implies everything from people defending poor as a lifestyle, such as classmates insistently you that working in class is a stupid lifestyle choice, to people joining the country on the basis that they don’t like producing much, and living in a general country that is second at everything (or falls down to Chile level in terms of studying math in school). If I had a passport for the US, I’d move yesterday.
  - reacharavindh 2y ago
    There is more to life than "producing much" and "getting rich". There is no single answer and it depends on preferences and tradeoffs. But, labeling an ideology that takes care of the unfortunate, and lets the people live life without "if you dont produce much or work every minute of your life towards getting rich" as lazy or incentivising to be poor is just naive and ignorant. I'm saying as someone from Asia having lived equal number of years in both US and EU.

ricardobayes 2y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_quality_of_life_indices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_quality_of_life_indices

data_maan 2y ago

> The US, UK, EU and realistically most developed countries I would say have fairly similar quality of life within margin of error. Ahem... Have you seen the standards in the UK get diluted year after year post-Brexit? There's more to the story than the listed examples. Environmental standards dictate your risk of developing various diseases later in life so are a big difference in quality of life. E.g., if you drink tap water from UK vs other countries, with high PFAS levels, where it essentially comes from a spring in the mountains - that's a huge difference. Another difference is job security which again has a huge impact. Consider France: If you get an unlimited contract at a company you're essentially set for life (unless the company goes busy, or you mess up in a very bad way). Compare that to the scare many US dev employees hat to ensure in spring 2023 when all the big tech companies were doing layoffs. Also, France had a much shorter work week. So, no, quality of life doesn't even compare remotely between these countries. Only perhaps for the upper 3% it is similar - if you're an average tech dev, your life will be much much nicer in Paris than in a random SF/LA suburb.

naming_the_user 2y ago
I guess I have a physicist mindset but basically I feel that these things are within margin of error. We're talking 20%, 40%, whatever. And because the lifestyle is so different it's hard to compare directly, it depends on your personal vision of what you want in life, as I mentioned some people want Paris, some people want the mountains. I do think that if you're going to live in a Big City(tm) then the old world just does cities better. Then again I haven't visited SF, just NYC. Job security isn't something I've ever cared about in my life. Starting from zero (no parental wealth), beyond about age 20-22 I've always had a minimum of six months savings, who cares, just find another job. It's business, you're not married. If you're an actual adult and you need a job continuously to get by you've fucked up somewhere. It kind of just feels like a leverage decision, anyone middle class or above has a net worth in the x00k's, it's just about whether you have anything liquid vs locked up in home value etc. If you have 0 in the bank then unless you're in North Korea or something you have bigger issues than "which country has better QoL" in my opinion, you need to work on yourself first.
- 2y ago

KaiserPro 2y ago

> UK [..] realistically most developed countries Its also really uneven. It contained in 2016 6 of the lowest GDP per captia regions of the entire EU. However we should of course treat GDP as a suspect measure of living standards. Whilst those people living in those areas will tend to have curtail life chances, they did at the time have access to _good_ healthcare and housing (in certain circumstances)

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