6 ms·

I just spent a week traveling El Salvador. They recently (<2 years ago) arrested basically every criminal in the country and have the highest incarceration rat

I just spent a week traveling El Salvador. They recently (<2 years ago) arrested basically every criminal in the country and have the highest incarceration rate in the world by far. It’s a bit controversial internationally but the El Salvadorian people love it. All I can say is visit now while it’s a well kept secret. I’ve never felt safer in a Latin American country. it’s beautiful, cheap and authentic. It feels like a country on the rise. While driving there it felt like everything was under construction (in a good way)

8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y ago
Any of the people in charge of that program who want to come to the Bay or NYC and help with their local justice-impacted community?
- cmdli 2y ago
  They should go to Houston, which has a higher murder rate than either of those: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...
  - jeffbee 2y ago
    Just because it's a pet issue of mine: the FBI specifically warns against making a table like this one because crime stats from different agencies simply cannot be compared like that. It also tends to distort reality when a city with a relatively small Census resident population has a much larger daytime population due to commute patterns. https://ucr.fbi.gov/ucr-statistics-their-proper-use https://ucr.fbi.gov/ucr-statistics-their-proper-use
  - grogenaut 2y ago
    Lol, houston is not even in the top 35 on that list. It's not even the biggest city in that list. Chicago has it beat. And my home town continues to represent as #1.
mullingitover 2y ago
> They recently (<2 years ago) arrested basically every criminal in the country I hope we can take their word for it, and they weren't abusing this power, because Amnesty International says they just threw huge numbers in prison without any due process[1]: > The majority of the detentions carried out under the state of emergency were arbitrary because they violated due process guarantees through absence of clear judicial orders, prolongation of administrative detentions, lack of precise information from authorities to detainees’ families regarding their whereabouts, and concealment of the identity of the judges processing detainees. Call me old fashioned, but I don't think it's necessarily awesome when the government just 'disappears' people and I hope that doesn't happen here. [1] https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/americas/central-america-and-the-caribbean/el-salvador/report-el-salvador/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/americas/central-america...
- ericfrenkiel 2y ago
  You’re old fashioned.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  Of note: the US accuses Bukele of essentially bribing the gangs not to make too much fuss. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/08/el-salvador-us-gang-leaders-truce https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/08/el-salvador-us...
  - whymauri 2y ago
    When Juan Manuel Santos negotiated a peace treaty with the FARC, he won a Nobel. When Bukele makes El Salvador the safest country in the Americas, there are 'explosive accusations' of bribery. Is it not functionally similar? Santos was defense minister during the Colombian False Positives scandals which was arguably much more evil than anything Bukele has done [0]. Can't make heads or tails of this, honestly. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22False_positives%22_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22False_positives%22_scandal The extrajudicial murder of innocent young men, conducted in order to boost body count OKRs for promotions and yearly bonuses. EDIT: the purpose of this comment is not to be pro-Bukele, but to encourage critical examination of the _framing and wording_ English-language publications use when discussing Latin American politics. As a Venezuelan, I am especially wary of authoritarians and you do not have to convince me about the slippery slope of judicial abuses of power.
whaaaaat 2y ago
When I think about a country who just incarcerates everyone I think: * Do I want to support authoritarianism? * Will I be arrested if I do a bad thing? Also, I was surprised to see the prison incarceration rates, but yeah, El Salvador is absolutely the highest, by a country mile. The top 5 are El Salvador, Cuba, Rwanda, Turkmenistan, and the USA.
- Bilal_io 2y ago
  > * Will I be arrested if I do a bad thing? Are you suggesting you should not be arrested if you do something bad? I think that's how it works everywhere.
  - whaaaaat 2y ago
    "A bad thing" is a highly variable judgement based on local rules, mores, and culture. And not every bad thing results in arrest. If I swear loudly, once, some people might think that's bad, but it's not going to get me arrested.
- mkl 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera... El Salvador has over twice as many per capita as Cuba. USA has the most in absolute numbers, but China is not far behind.
bradleyjg 2y ago
It’s hard to blame them for trying given what conditions were like there. But this is the sort of thing that’s very likely to end in tears. To do this kind of mass roundup requires a great deal of discretionary power and historically those granted such powers have very often abused them sooner or later.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
throw78311 2y ago
When I hear this I just wonder whether the prison infrastructure can keep up?
- loeg 2y ago
  They built a huge new prison that packs inmates very densely. CNN went inside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-Oz14D5sz0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-Oz14D5sz0
maeil 2y ago
For those who may want to spent an hour or so of their Sunday really learning about what has been happening in El Salvador, I recommend the wonderful Notes on El Salvador by Matt Lakeman [1]. The type of long form content that we all need more of; subjects like these have too many angles to learn from HN comments. [1] https://mattlakeman.org/2024/03/30/notes-on-el-salvador/ https://mattlakeman.org/2024/03/30/notes-on-el-salvador/
- droopyEyelids 2y ago
  Hard to imagine 1.7% of the population is in prison. In the USA we only have .5% in prison and .2% in jail.
  - i80and 2y ago
    1.7% is terrifying police state territory. I don't see El Salvadore coming back from this without a complete governmental overhaul.
- oefrha 2y ago
  So, I read that when it popped up on HN a while ago. As someone who know approximately nothing about El Salvador I found it quite informative. Then I checked out an article on the sidebar about a country where I have lots of first hand knowledge, and found a fair bit of inaccuracies, and worse, omissions due to ideological slant. As always, lying by omission is powerful and you’re not even technically lying. Now, I’m not accusing the author of intentionally lying, but our opinions on things are all shaped by biased sources and the author themself is no different, and the point is to not so readily have your opinions shaped by some “wonderful” article online, especially when you know nothing about the topic otherwise.
  - maeil 2y ago
    Very good to know! May I ask what slant it was? From the article on El Salvador the conclusion felt like overall was that the Bukele's approach has probably been a net positive compared to predecessors, though he did point out plenty of negatives as well. Did this align with a particular slant you noticed on the other article? Very true that it's necessary to keep in mind that even with texts that present themselves as well-researched, there could be plenty of angles omitted that may drastically change the conclusion. Still, I won't hesitate recommending it over random <200 character comments.
mapt 2y ago
"Basically every criminal in the country" without regard for charging them with any particular crime. Guilt by popular reputation, guilt by association, guilt by tattoo, guilt by suspicion or dislike. Indefinite sentence. No trial. Prison conditions as proudly abusive & humiliating as diplomatically feasible. This is martial law, an internal military occupation with dictatorial control. An act of desperation welcomed only because El Salvador was previously, for decades, a bit of a failed state undergoing something tantamount to a low-grade civil war. Martial law in the developing world doesn't have a history of going very well for very long. It's a brittle situation.
MiguelX413 2y ago
I'm glad you enjoyed visiting! Btw our demonym is “Salvadoran”.
rurban 2y ago
Doesn't it have the highest murder rate in the world, still? I wouldn't dare to try.
- chasebank 2y ago
  One of the lowest, now. https://www.statista.com/statistics/715019/homicide-rates-in-latin-america/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/715019/homicide-rates-in...
  - inemesitaffia 2y ago
    Lowest in 2023
latchkey 2y ago
Travel bloggers have been covering this too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKLnMSvbBmk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKLnMSvbBmk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il4Hb5f2bgE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il4Hb5f2bgE

8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y ago

Any of the people in charge of that program who want to come to the Bay or NYC and help with their local justice-impacted community?

cmdli 2y ago
They should go to Houston, which has a higher murder rate than either of those: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...
- jeffbee 2y ago
  Just because it's a pet issue of mine: the FBI specifically warns against making a table like this one because crime stats from different agencies simply cannot be compared like that. It also tends to distort reality when a city with a relatively small Census resident population has a much larger daytime population due to commute patterns. https://ucr.fbi.gov/ucr-statistics-their-proper-use https://ucr.fbi.gov/ucr-statistics-their-proper-use
- grogenaut 2y ago
  Lol, houston is not even in the top 35 on that list. It's not even the biggest city in that list. Chicago has it beat. And my home town continues to represent as #1.

mullingitover 2y ago

> They recently (<2 years ago) arrested basically every criminal in the country I hope we can take their word for it, and they weren't abusing this power, because Amnesty International says they just threw huge numbers in prison without any due process[1]: > The majority of the detentions carried out under the state of emergency were arbitrary because they violated due process guarantees through absence of clear judicial orders, prolongation of administrative detentions, lack of precise information from authorities to detainees’ families regarding their whereabouts, and concealment of the identity of the judges processing detainees. Call me old fashioned, but I don't think it's necessarily awesome when the government just 'disappears' people and I hope that doesn't happen here. [1] https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/americas/central-america-and-the-caribbean/el-salvador/report-el-salvador/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/americas/central-america...

ericfrenkiel 2y ago
You’re old fashioned.
ceejayoz 2y ago
Of note: the US accuses Bukele of essentially bribing the gangs not to make too much fuss. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/08/el-salvador-us-gang-leaders-truce https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/08/el-salvador-us...
- whymauri 2y ago
  When Juan Manuel Santos negotiated a peace treaty with the FARC, he won a Nobel. When Bukele makes El Salvador the safest country in the Americas, there are 'explosive accusations' of bribery. Is it not functionally similar? Santos was defense minister during the Colombian False Positives scandals which was arguably much more evil than anything Bukele has done [0]. Can't make heads or tails of this, honestly. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22False_positives%22_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22False_positives%22_scandal The extrajudicial murder of innocent young men, conducted in order to boost body count OKRs for promotions and yearly bonuses. EDIT: the purpose of this comment is not to be pro-Bukele, but to encourage critical examination of the _framing and wording_ English-language publications use when discussing Latin American politics. As a Venezuelan, I am especially wary of authoritarians and you do not have to convince me about the slippery slope of judicial abuses of power.

whaaaaat 2y ago

When I think about a country who just incarcerates everyone I think: * Do I want to support authoritarianism? * Will I be arrested if I do a bad thing? Also, I was surprised to see the prison incarceration rates, but yeah, El Salvador is absolutely the highest, by a country mile. The top 5 are El Salvador, Cuba, Rwanda, Turkmenistan, and the USA.

Bilal_io 2y ago
> * Will I be arrested if I do a bad thing? Are you suggesting you should not be arrested if you do something bad? I think that's how it works everywhere.
- whaaaaat 2y ago
  "A bad thing" is a highly variable judgement based on local rules, mores, and culture. And not every bad thing results in arrest. If I swear loudly, once, some people might think that's bad, but it's not going to get me arrested.
mkl 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera... El Salvador has over twice as many per capita as Cuba. USA has the most in absolute numbers, but China is not far behind.

bradleyjg 2y ago

It’s hard to blame them for trying given what conditions were like there. But this is the sort of thing that’s very likely to end in tears. To do this kind of mass roundup requires a great deal of discretionary power and historically those granted such powers have very often abused them sooner or later.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

throw78311 2y ago

When I hear this I just wonder whether the prison infrastructure can keep up?

loeg 2y ago
They built a huge new prison that packs inmates very densely. CNN went inside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-Oz14D5sz0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-Oz14D5sz0

maeil 2y ago

For those who may want to spent an hour or so of their Sunday really learning about what has been happening in El Salvador, I recommend the wonderful Notes on El Salvador by Matt Lakeman [1]. The type of long form content that we all need more of; subjects like these have too many angles to learn from HN comments. [1] https://mattlakeman.org/2024/03/30/notes-on-el-salvador/ https://mattlakeman.org/2024/03/30/notes-on-el-salvador/

droopyEyelids 2y ago
Hard to imagine 1.7% of the population is in prison. In the USA we only have .5% in prison and .2% in jail.
- i80and 2y ago
  1.7% is terrifying police state territory. I don't see El Salvadore coming back from this without a complete governmental overhaul.
oefrha 2y ago
So, I read that when it popped up on HN a while ago. As someone who know approximately nothing about El Salvador I found it quite informative. Then I checked out an article on the sidebar about a country where I have lots of first hand knowledge, and found a fair bit of inaccuracies, and worse, omissions due to ideological slant. As always, lying by omission is powerful and you’re not even technically lying. Now, I’m not accusing the author of intentionally lying, but our opinions on things are all shaped by biased sources and the author themself is no different, and the point is to not so readily have your opinions shaped by some “wonderful” article online, especially when you know nothing about the topic otherwise.
- maeil 2y ago
  Very good to know! May I ask what slant it was? From the article on El Salvador the conclusion felt like overall was that the Bukele's approach has probably been a net positive compared to predecessors, though he did point out plenty of negatives as well. Did this align with a particular slant you noticed on the other article? Very true that it's necessary to keep in mind that even with texts that present themselves as well-researched, there could be plenty of angles omitted that may drastically change the conclusion. Still, I won't hesitate recommending it over random <200 character comments.

mapt 2y ago

"Basically every criminal in the country" without regard for charging them with any particular crime. Guilt by popular reputation, guilt by association, guilt by tattoo, guilt by suspicion or dislike. Indefinite sentence. No trial. Prison conditions as proudly abusive & humiliating as diplomatically feasible. This is martial law, an internal military occupation with dictatorial control. An act of desperation welcomed only because El Salvador was previously, for decades, a bit of a failed state undergoing something tantamount to a low-grade civil war. Martial law in the developing world doesn't have a history of going very well for very long. It's a brittle situation.

MiguelX413 2y ago

I'm glad you enjoyed visiting! Btw our demonym is “Salvadoran”.

rurban 2y ago

Doesn't it have the highest murder rate in the world, still? I wouldn't dare to try.

chasebank 2y ago
One of the lowest, now. https://www.statista.com/statistics/715019/homicide-rates-in-latin-america/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/715019/homicide-rates-in...
- inemesitaffia 2y ago
  Lowest in 2023

latchkey 2y ago

Travel bloggers have been covering this too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKLnMSvbBmk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKLnMSvbBmk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il4Hb5f2bgE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il4Hb5f2bgE