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MIT Aluminum Bicycle Project 1974 (2016)
- walrus01 2y agoThe pinnacle of the modern tubular aluminum road bike frame was probably reached with the cannondale CAAD8 and CAAD9 frames, which could easily be built into UCI-illegal-weight bikes using expensive components and wheelsets. stripped example: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=153424 https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=153... https://www.reddit.com/r/cannondale/comments/1d9nind/2009_caad9/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cannondale/comments/1d9nind/2009_ca...
- leoh 2y agoFavorite road bike I’ve ever owned was the aluminum Klein Quantum Race designed by Greg Klein.
- lbourdages 2y agoKlein bikes of that era had the best paint jobs I have ever seen. I was way too young to even know about these bikes back then, which is a shame, as they are pretty much at the very top of what constitutes bike porn for me.
- leoh 2y agoYeah they were good Don’t need a bike manufacturer to do that for you though
- mtillman 2y agoI still own a Klein Performance ‘81 and an Adept Comp that has its own amazing story. Love Klein bikes. In fact, I kind of expected this article to be about Klein since it also came from MIT in 1975. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_Bicycle_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_Bicycle_Corporation
- A_D_E_P_T 2y ago> He ruled out magnesium, which is best per unit weight in compressive buckling but is brittle and difficult to extrude. There's a fascinating, and very new, class of nano-laminate magnesium alloys called Long Period Stacking-Ordered (LPSO) alloys. These are very lean -- the standard version is 97% Mg + 1% Zn + 2% Y -- and they have outstanding mechanical properties. At an equal weight, they're much stronger and stiffer than 6061 aluminum, and the kicker is that this is generally true only if they're extruded. If they're not extruded, the laminate-like grain structure doesn't form properly. Could make excellent bike frames. Magnesium corrosion would still be a problem, though. I got some LPSO-Mg samples from Fuji Light Metals, in Japan, and they were quite badly degraded within weeks.
- 3eb7988a1663 2y agoCan modern material science model this computationally, or does everything have to be observed experimentally? This kind of insane just-so recipe - are researchers just iterating on hundreds of thousands of different alloy compositions and production techniques or are there strong theoretical principles on which some of this can be derived?
- choilive 2y agoIts been some time detached from the mat sci folks deeply involved in the space but its both. There is a bunch of theoretical underpinnings but ultimately a lot of throwing darts on the board as well.
- A_D_E_P_T 2y agoYeah. It depends a lot on the type of material, too. Conventional metal alloys -- like LPSO-Mg -- are the toughest to model. Too many variables. Ceramics and intermetallics are a lot easier to model in principle, but they can have surprising properties on an atomic level, and there's really no predictive method for that sort of thing. Modeling does get you pretty far with high-entropy alloys -- because to a substantial extent their properties hinge on how a bunch of different atoms might fit together randomly, and that's something that can be computationally predicted. A lot of the recent interest in HEAs is because they're relatively easy to model.
- loeg 2y agoIt's interesting that trackies in the 70s were trying to reduce weight that much. I don't think it's perceived as especially advantageous these days. The high-ish end track bike I'm assembling now will be a little over 8 kg (almost 18 lb). We also race much bigger gears (typically 95-110 gear inches in mass start racing, bigger for sprinting) than mentioned in the article (72 gear inches). The position that is considered aerodynamic is also much different -- there is much less focus on getting that insanely low, and instead the focus is on being narrow and getting the forearms parallel with the ground.
- Gualdrapo 2y agoNot sure if you know about Merckx's bike for his hour record - they did many interesting modifications to it aiming to reduce its weight
- loeg 2y agoYeah, Sheldon mentions it in this article. I don't think those mods helped. Weight has no impact on sustained speed.
- kevin_thibedeau 2y agoYou slow down incrementally between every power stroke.
- sudosysgen 2y agoA heavier bike would slow down less. At the end of the day the energy is lost to friction.
- kevin_thibedeau 2y agoWind resistance is the primary force slowing you down at speeds where riders care about such things. The tiny micro-accelerations after every dead zone add up in spent calories when you have a more massive bike+rider system.
- fnord77 2y agoI'm convinced titanium is a pretty optimal bike material. I hate aluminum frames, too stiff, some amount of flex makes a bike so much nicer. Hate carbon, too. Steel is nice. I've have a lite ghisallo frame which I think was under 2lbs. The whole bike is under 15lbs and still manages to carry my 200lbs of weight.
- xpe 2y agoTitanium frames have a devoted fan base. Personally, I tried to notice the difference back when I did road racing but didn't. Maybe I didn't want to: Ti ain't cheap.
- __mharrison__ 2y agoWhat is cheap these days?
- loeg 2y agoLow quality steel is very cheap but also really heavy. You can get a whole crappy bike for a couple hundred bucks. Higher end steel isn't as cheap but is still relatively heavy (compared to aluminum or carbon). You can get this kind of bike in the $1000-2000 price range (e.g. Surly). Aluminum bikes tend to be inexpensive, but also not the lightest. These can also be priced at $1000-2000 (Specialized, Trek, Giant, ...). Carbon comes in a range of prices with various tradeoffs. You can get very budget carbon frames at like $1500 (Winspace) or whole bikes at like $3000 (Giant) (maybe $2000 in non-major brands, very discounted during current market conditions). For titanium, I'm seeing Black Friday deals starting at like, $3200-3500 (Lynskey / Litespeed). But they're often sold at higher prices than carbon bikes. (For my money, I prefer carbon frames -- you get more flexibility in tube shapes and the end result can be lighter and stronger than titanium.)
- insane_dreamer 2y agoPrices shot up during the pandemic and never really went back down. You're lucky to find a good carbon bike for under $4K these days where you used to be able to find them for $2K.
- xnx 2y agoR.I.P. Sheldon Brown. I'm glad his pages still exist both as useful resource and as a time capsule of what the best of the old web looked like: useful, content rich, no ads, fast loading, stable urls.
- webnrrd2k 2y agoI was at another OG-style web page [1] today, and thought the same thing. I found a Badger airbrush, a 155 Anthem [2], that I completely forget I had. [1] https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home [2] https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home
- rob74 2y agoNo ads? I assume you have an adblocker installed? Without one, you do see some ads, although by far not so obnoxious as on other sites...
- Kuinox 2y agoThere is an aliexpress ad on top of the page.
- mikeryan 2y agoI got down to the bit about Sheldon Brown being Harriet’s husband and was “wait that Sheldon Brown?” That was when I realized what site I was on.
- xpe 2y ago> Use larger diameter tubular components - Strength goes up as the cube of the diameter so unless there are geometric constraints, use larger diameter tubes with thinner walls to get a lighter structure with increased strength and stiffness. This trend has continued -- it is very noticeable in road and mountain bikes. But this trades off against impact resistance, aerodynamics, and the can-it-fit-between-your-legs-metric.
- donavanm 2y agoIf youre thinking modern carbon frames most of that is actually driven by design for manufacturability, not strength/weight/performance optimizations per se. Off the top of my head: Frame “tube” dimensions driven by layup mold & mandrel/bladder requirements to minimize tooling and layup time Press fit to reduce inserts and post mold operations with a “simpler” molded interface Flat mount brakes to simplify mold shape and support simpler insert components UDH and direct mount again the simplicity of molded in shape, minimal inserts, reduced post mold operations. “Modern” UDH hangers move threaded components off the frame. much simpler than the old syntace style which need both precise thread alignment and/or frame tooling operations and/or additional inserts. You could probably throw head tubes in here too; split races to avoid reaming, molded bare pseudo-press fit “cups”, and the absolute ridiculous sizes like IS47 and larger. Many/most of those only help manufacturing costs for major frame factories. And are middling to suck for other materials and small volumes. Ex steel flatmount and IS47 is an absolute joke.
- ginko 2y agoMy main gripe with those large diameter tube frames is that they're just ugly.
- loeg 2y agoTaste is personal; and of course, you can still buy skinny-tube steel frame bikes, with probably more options available than at any other time in history.
- fiatpandas 2y agoTwo things jumped out at me: the simple/non-adjustable saddle support, and the absolutely slammed bars affixed just above the fork. Was that normal for track bars at the time?
- loeg 2y agoYeah, both are relatively insane choices by modern lights. You see some other track bikes of that era with fork-mounted handlebars (it's not unique) but I believe conventional stem + bars were more popular.
- fiatpandas 2y agoTbh I love the simplicity of the hard coded saddle post + support. Both being made out of the same tube size.
- mollusk 2y agoCheck out the Soviet Takhion [1] track bike for a similar handlebar setup. Cinelli also had a version of their legendary Laser [2] bike with that setup. 1: https://bikecult.com/works/archive/03bicycles/takhionVVVV.html https://bikecult.com/works/archive/03bicycles/takhionVVVV.ht... 2: https://www.pedalroom.com/bike/cinelli-laser-aero-pursuit-34049 https://www.pedalroom.com/bike/cinelli-laser-aero-pursuit-34...
- fiatpandas 2y agoGreat references! Thank you.
- car 2y agoA modern alternative are bamboo frames, e.g. https://my-boo.de https://my-boo.de
- ndsipa_pomu 2y agoWhilst bamboo is an interesting "green" material, it doesn't really compare well to a carbon fibre frame. Modern thinking is that the frame weight is secondary to aerodynamics and one of the advantages of CF is that the frame "tubes" can be shaped specifically to help with that. Of course, the main aerodynamic advantage to be gained is from the human sat on top of the bike.
- brudgers 2y agoEvery time I’ve visited a Sheldon Brown page, I’ve gone down a rabbit hole. This time it was “Sheldon Brown’s personal bicycles” https://sheldonbrown.com/org/bicycle.html https://sheldonbrown.com/org/bicycle.html That’s the essence of a great website.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y agoI've only just found out that he suffered from Multiple Sclerosis: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/org/ms.html https://www.sheldonbrown.com/org/ms.html
- rfmoz 2y agoGary Fisher has an insteresting paper too about alu frames: https://web.archive.org/web/20061103174315/http://www.kleinjapan.com/at_klein/garys_speech.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20061103174315/http://www.kleinj...
- fiftyacorn 2y agoFor me the biggest innovation in bicycles was Graeme Obree - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeme_Obree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeme_Obree With his "old faithful" bike he built himself I was looking at it in the museum last week and it still impresses me how intuitive he was about cycling. Things like integrating the pedal and shoe to save on height, and also reducing the q-number with the narrow bottom bracket. I remember doing time trials with Graeme before he had created "old faithful" and he was just incredible Graeme wrote a book on training a few years ago - its very home brew - but he was ahead of his time saying that you need to ride 25-28mm tyres on the road, rather than the 20-23 which were fashionable at the time.
- yapyap 2y agonice story but the ads are awfully annoying, and b4 u suggest an adblocker, I’m on a phone.
- Scoundreller 2y agoI suggest an adblocker for your phone
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ndsipa_pomu 2y agoVarious VPN services provide ad blocking and a phone app e.g. Mullvad
- Scoundreller 2y agoIt’s not perfect, but carefully choosing DNS resolvers/profiles can get you a lot of the way there. Even Mullvad ad-blocking DNS is available for free, no app (and def no account!) https://mullvad.net/en/help/dns-over-https-and-dns-over-tls https://mullvad.net/en/help/dns-over-https-and-dns-over-tls Nice thing is you can set your DHCP to hand this out to all devices.
- prmoustache 2y agoI was browsing this page on my smartphone in an airport with the ublock origin extension blocking the ads...not sure what you are talking about with that weak phone excuse.
- trhway 2y agoaluminum is nice, yet once in a blue moon you get something like this year an aluminum hiking pole broke when i lost my balance on a slippery slope and put a lot of weight on the pole and falling i almost got skewered by it's broken off jagged lower piece. I really want steel poles now, yet can't find them to the point of pondering DYI-ing from some Home Depot steel tubing.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y agoThat's a problem with aluminium - no fatigue limit. This means that cyclic loads on an aluminium frame (or pole) will eventually cause it to fail. Steel does have a fatigue limit such that cyclic loads below that threshold won't cause eventual failure. There's some good info on bike frame materials here: https://bike.bikegremlin.com/11144/bicycle-frame-materials-explained/ https://bike.bikegremlin.com/11144/bicycle-frame-materials-e...
- mtillman 2y agoWasn’t this solved by Klein?
- ndsipa_pomu 2y agoNo
- prmoustache 2y agoIt is only really an issue with aluminium forks and non traditionnal construction. With a "diamond shaped" traditionnal cycling frame you have nearly 0 chance of a frame failing catastrophically. Usually the weaker part crack and your bike just end up creaking horribly and/or feel noodly. I have suffered and witnessed a number of alu and alu+carbon bonded frame failing at the glued joints.
- loeg 2y agoCarbon hiking poles are the way to go, they're very light and very affordable.
- eigart 2y agoJust an anecdote thats been horrifying me for the last week since Klein is mentioned. I learned last week that my colleague bought a commuting bike from an old friend. A true once in a lifetime barn find. Mid 90s Klein Attitude, only used for a few weeks before being stored in the barn until 2023. My colleague is currently putting it through its second winter on salted, snowy roads.
- justinator 2y agoI'd much rather see a bike used for a purpose than a bike lost in the back of a barn! What's the alt. timeline for the bike? Stored as a collectors item? Ships in the harbor and all.
- loeg 2y agoBikes are for using, not sitting in barns.
- briansm 2y agoI find the obsession minimizing bicycle weight funny. It's not the bicycle weight that matters, it's the combined weight of bicycle and rider that counts. Rider weight massively outweighs the relevance of bike frame material, especially in the West where obesity epidemic has biased BMI upwards over the last half century.
- tomaskafka 2y agoThat’s what I tell myself when picking the bike - just get a competent basic $700-ish bike, and if you want it 2 kg lighter, lose those 2 kg instead of paying thousands.
- briansm 2y agoIn evolutionary terms, being taller, fatter and more muscular is advantageous, but in practical terms it's just a lot of extra weight to drag around for a lifetime, along with all the extra calories of energy needed to do so.
- magic_smoke_ee 2y agoYep. That's what I keep telling myself. ;) In the end, those will all kill me sooner because they're each opposed to longevity in a safe environment.
- wink 2y agoIt's not bike weight per se, but there's also a somewhat direct link between weight and component quality and age. I.e. no one really tests a 20y old bike with current top-end components, no one really puts 10y old groupsets on a 2024 frame. Yes, rider weight trumps it, but modern bikes in general just ride nicer and most of us who are not pros only test a dozen different bikes at most. It's a hobby, people like to splurge.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y agoWeight isn't that important for bike racing unless you're specifically doing hill climbs. Aerodynamics will make more of a difference, so there might be some advantage in having a bit of belly fat to enable a smooth airflow. Also, heavier riders are generally faster downhill as they have a greater terminal velocity.
- benj111 2y agoWhat was the patent for? I remember seeing an old aluminium bike in the Manchester industrial museum This is from 1896 https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co8409228/lu-mi-num-safety-bicycle https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co84092... And theres this https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co25722/caminargent-special-light-alloy-french-bicycle https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co25722... Doesn't give a date, but this is the one I remember, and seem to recall it being 1901
- prmoustache 2y agoI also rode an aluminium frame my granddad owned that was from the 1950's, with weird 700A wheels by today's standards.
- mjs 2y ago> She did spend another year in France, but not until 1988/1989 with her husband, Sheldon Brown… It's his wife! Harriet is Sheldon's wife!
- magic_smoke_ee 2y agoI was going to say it looked like a Cannondale TT. It was too stiff, unstable, difficult to control, and rode poorly compared to heavier steel frames. Steel is heavier but at least you'll still have teeth left after a ride on a road that isn't perfect like a freshly-asphalted bike path.
- btbuildem 2y agoWith all the mods ("hardcoded" seat, no stem, custom shafts and bearings) It's funny he decided to keep the toe clips -- would've easily shaved a few ounces there!