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I completely agree, but saying it's a 'recall' when your car sits in your driveway still feels entirely wrong.

by Aeolun 2y ago

jmb99 2y ago
Recall is the industry-standard (and populace-understood) term for “this vehicle has a safety or reliability issue that must be resolved by the manufacturer.” It is all encompassing; anything from possibly loose lugnuts to faulty airbags to engine failures to yes, the reverse camera failing to appear. It doesn’t matter if the manufacturer ships an OTA update, shows up at your house with a loaner and a flatbed to take your car, or requires you to go into the dealership for service, it’s a recall.
- aikinai 2y ago
  It might be industry-standard term, but it’s certainly not understood that way by layman, including car customers. To the public, “recall” will always carry the implication that the vehicle needs to go back to the manufacturer for a fix.
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    I don't think that's true. Most people are accustomed to there being many "recalls" for trifling matters which can be simply ignored until maybe the next time they bring the car into the shop. A typical conversation about recalls: > "I changed your oil, and I also replaced one of your door seals because there was a recall for the rubber cracking in cold weather" > "Oh, okay." It doesn't colloquially imply that the manufacturer is going to come take your car due to some major issue.
    - Kinrany 2y ago
      This was the argument that convinced me.
    - Aeolun 2y ago
      Maybe for you? All the recall notices I’ve ever seen are of the “Device may electrocute you if used improperly” variety. Those were definitely very strong suggestions to immediately discontinue use and get a replacement. Maybe this is one of those situations where the US uses this term differently from the rest of the world? In a way that waters the term down so much that it might as well be meaningless?
- justinclift 2y ago
  > and populace-understood Nah, doesn't really seem like it.
- nobody9999 2y ago
  >Recall is the industry-standard (and populace-understood) term for “this vehicle has a safety or reliability issue that must be resolved by the manufacturer.” Exactly. But not just for vehicles or other durable goods. We see recalls of all sorts of food products[0] pretty regularly, and no one has to bring their carrots or ground beef back to the store/manufacturer to "remediate" the issue. Rather, you just throw it away. And such activities are unfailingly called recalls. [0] https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety-alerts https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety...
karlgkk 2y ago
Sure it's wrong, but it's actually to Tesla's benefit IMO Which of these would you, a Tesla stakeholder, prefer the news to report: - Tesla Cybertruck has recall - Tesla Cybertruck receives software update that resolves issue that put public safety at risk
- justinclift 2y ago
  That's really not clear? And for equivalence, the first would need to be: - Tesla Cybertruck has recall that resolves issue that put public safety at risk
  - karlgkk 2y ago
    No, I agree it's not really clear. > And for equivalence But that's the whole point of my post. Because the term "recall" often technically means "issue that put public safety at risk". But would you want that spelled out every time if you were a marketer?
daghamm 2y ago
"recall" is a legal term, it means the vehicle is not road-legal and requires immediate action. Doesn't really matter if it hw, sw or maybe even the owners manual that needs to be changed ASAP.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  If I have a flat tyre it's not a recall. Not everything about not being road-legal and requiring immediate action is a recall. That's a bad definition.
  - atwrk 2y ago
    The proper definition will clearly mean the model, not the model instance.
  - fenomas 2y ago
    GP said "recall → not street legal"; you've replied to disagree with "recall ↔ not street legal".
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      Nothing about the definition implies the existence of the former construction.
      - macintux 2y ago
        HN discourages this type of bad faith misinterpretation in the name of pedantry.
        robertlagrant 2y ago
        That is itself a misinterpretation, but I'll assume good faith. I'm not misinterpreting; I'm saying the definition is too broad. A useful reply seems simple enough: - yes it is too broad, and here's the additional criterion to narrow it correctly - no it is not too broad, and here's why a flat tyre is a recall
saghm 2y ago
I'm not sure I agree. From the perspective of a customer, not being able to drive the car due to it being unsafe is the part that matters, not where and how the manufacturer has to fix it. If you're opposed to it based on the assumption that it wouldn't take as long, I agree that might be true, but by that logic we should be categorizing _all_ recalls based on length (regardless of whether it's a software update or otherwise), since I'm not convinced that the average length of time until a problem is fixed will always be perfectly split with the software ones being super quick and the ones that would need to happen in person being super slow. What if the mechanics are already aware of how to fix the issue and can do it the same day, or if the software issue turns out to take a long time due to the developers needing a lot of time to fix the bug? If you're opposed to it purely from the perspective of linguistics and "recall" sounds like "return to the manufacturer", I think I'd disagree due to the word "recall" not being super commonly used for that in other circumstances. If anything, the other usage of the word that springs to mind most readily to me is recalling someone or something "from service", which I think fits perfectly here.
- mewpmewp2 2y ago
  It still doesn't sound right to me. Sure we can get adapted to the new meaning of the term as time goes on, but to me the term has strong implications to physically bring it back, and it is weird that people are claiming that it doesn't. Surely this causes a lot of confusion at the very least people thinking those vehicles actually have to be brought back.
  - Topfi 2y ago
    But it isn’t a new meaning. Rather, those arguing that recall should now exclude OTA want to change a long established definition.
    - mewpmewp2 2y ago
      Google "definition of product recall" First 2 answers in asq.org and wikipedia Recall is the act of officially summoning someone or something back to its place of origin. A product recall is defined as a request to return, exchange, or replace a product after a manufacturer or consumer watch group discovers defects that could hinder performance, harm consumers, or produce legal issues for the producers. and A product recall is a request from a manufacturer to return a product after the discovery of safety issues or product defects that might endanger the consumer or put the maker or seller at risk of legal action. Product recalls are one of a number of corrective actions that can be taken for products that are deemed to be unsafe. It specifically says "request to return." It's very important because the word "recall" to me is rather about the cost to the business and consumer rather than severity of an issue or it being specifically safety issue. Recall could be something that is done as a response to a safety issue, but recall could be done for some other reasons as well. E.g. the product could not just be performing as well, but not be a safety issue. There's a defect that means product lifetime will be limited, etc.
croes 2y ago
The recall doesn’t know how the fix is applied it’s just the fix is mandatory for manufacturer and he to inform the customers

I completely agree, but saying it's a 'recall' when your car sits in your driveway still feels entirely wrong.

by Aeolun 2y ago

I completely agree, but saying it's a 'recall' when your car sits in your driveway still feels entirely wrong.

Recall is the industry-standard (and populace-understood) term for “this vehicle has a safety or reliability issue that must be resolved by the manufacturer.” It is all encompassing; anything from possibly loose lugnuts to faulty airbags to engine failures to yes, the reverse camera failing to appear. It doesn’t matter if the manufacturer ships an OTA update, shows up at your house with a loaner and a flatbed to take your car, or requires you to go into the dealership for service, it’s a recall.

aikinai 2y ago
It might be industry-standard term, but it’s certainly not understood that way by layman, including car customers. To the public, “recall” will always carry the implication that the vehicle needs to go back to the manufacturer for a fix.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  I don't think that's true. Most people are accustomed to there being many "recalls" for trifling matters which can be simply ignored until maybe the next time they bring the car into the shop. A typical conversation about recalls: > "I changed your oil, and I also replaced one of your door seals because there was a recall for the rubber cracking in cold weather" > "Oh, okay." It doesn't colloquially imply that the manufacturer is going to come take your car due to some major issue.
  - Kinrany 2y ago
    This was the argument that convinced me.
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    Maybe for you? All the recall notices I’ve ever seen are of the “Device may electrocute you if used improperly” variety. Those were definitely very strong suggestions to immediately discontinue use and get a replacement. Maybe this is one of those situations where the US uses this term differently from the rest of the world? In a way that waters the term down so much that it might as well be meaningless?
justinclift 2y ago
> and populace-understood Nah, doesn't really seem like it.
nobody9999 2y ago
>Recall is the industry-standard (and populace-understood) term for “this vehicle has a safety or reliability issue that must be resolved by the manufacturer.” Exactly. But not just for vehicles or other durable goods. We see recalls of all sorts of food products[0] pretty regularly, and no one has to bring their carrots or ground beef back to the store/manufacturer to "remediate" the issue. Rather, you just throw it away. And such activities are unfailingly called recalls. [0] https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety-alerts https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety...

karlgkk 2y ago

Sure it's wrong, but it's actually to Tesla's benefit IMO Which of these would you, a Tesla stakeholder, prefer the news to report: - Tesla Cybertruck has recall - Tesla Cybertruck receives software update that resolves issue that put public safety at risk

justinclift 2y ago
That's really not clear? And for equivalence, the first would need to be: - Tesla Cybertruck has recall that resolves issue that put public safety at risk
- karlgkk 2y ago
  No, I agree it's not really clear. > And for equivalence But that's the whole point of my post. Because the term "recall" often technically means "issue that put public safety at risk". But would you want that spelled out every time if you were a marketer?

daghamm 2y ago

"recall" is a legal term, it means the vehicle is not road-legal and requires immediate action. Doesn't really matter if it hw, sw or maybe even the owners manual that needs to be changed ASAP.

robertlagrant 2y ago
If I have a flat tyre it's not a recall. Not everything about not being road-legal and requiring immediate action is a recall. That's a bad definition.
- atwrk 2y ago
  The proper definition will clearly mean the model, not the model instance.
- fenomas 2y ago
  GP said "recall → not street legal"; you've replied to disagree with "recall ↔ not street legal".
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    Nothing about the definition implies the existence of the former construction.
    - macintux 2y ago
      HN discourages this type of bad faith misinterpretation in the name of pedantry.
      - robertlagrant 2y ago
        That is itself a misinterpretation, but I'll assume good faith. I'm not misinterpreting; I'm saying the definition is too broad. A useful reply seems simple enough: - yes it is too broad, and here's the additional criterion to narrow it correctly - no it is not too broad, and here's why a flat tyre is a recall

saghm 2y ago

I'm not sure I agree. From the perspective of a customer, not being able to drive the car due to it being unsafe is the part that matters, not where and how the manufacturer has to fix it. If you're opposed to it based on the assumption that it wouldn't take as long, I agree that might be true, but by that logic we should be categorizing _all_ recalls based on length (regardless of whether it's a software update or otherwise), since I'm not convinced that the average length of time until a problem is fixed will always be perfectly split with the software ones being super quick and the ones that would need to happen in person being super slow. What if the mechanics are already aware of how to fix the issue and can do it the same day, or if the software issue turns out to take a long time due to the developers needing a lot of time to fix the bug? If you're opposed to it purely from the perspective of linguistics and "recall" sounds like "return to the manufacturer", I think I'd disagree due to the word "recall" not being super commonly used for that in other circumstances. If anything, the other usage of the word that springs to mind most readily to me is recalling someone or something "from service", which I think fits perfectly here.

mewpmewp2 2y ago
It still doesn't sound right to me. Sure we can get adapted to the new meaning of the term as time goes on, but to me the term has strong implications to physically bring it back, and it is weird that people are claiming that it doesn't. Surely this causes a lot of confusion at the very least people thinking those vehicles actually have to be brought back.
- Topfi 2y ago
  But it isn’t a new meaning. Rather, those arguing that recall should now exclude OTA want to change a long established definition.
  - mewpmewp2 2y ago
    Google "definition of product recall" First 2 answers in asq.org and wikipedia Recall is the act of officially summoning someone or something back to its place of origin. A product recall is defined as a request to return, exchange, or replace a product after a manufacturer or consumer watch group discovers defects that could hinder performance, harm consumers, or produce legal issues for the producers. and A product recall is a request from a manufacturer to return a product after the discovery of safety issues or product defects that might endanger the consumer or put the maker or seller at risk of legal action. Product recalls are one of a number of corrective actions that can be taken for products that are deemed to be unsafe. It specifically says "request to return." It's very important because the word "recall" to me is rather about the cost to the business and consumer rather than severity of an issue or it being specifically safety issue. Recall could be something that is done as a response to a safety issue, but recall could be done for some other reasons as well. E.g. the product could not just be performing as well, but not be a safety issue. There's a defect that means product lifetime will be limited, etc.

croes 2y ago

The recall doesn’t know how the fix is applied it’s just the fix is mandatory for manufacturer and he to inform the customers