12 ms·

A career-ending mistake

362 points by gus_leonel 2y ago

tossandthrow 2y ago
This approach to careers fails to take into account that we inherently change as people. In periods of ones life other things matters - maybe it is taking an education, starting a family, etc. Other periods work matter. It should be entirely fine to switch it on and off and change tracks throughout life - and in my view it seems like it is! To reach a peak it takes roughly 10 years, but these 10 years can be started at 40 when your kids does not wear diapers anymore.
- mettamage 2y ago
  Well said: I think in this sense, flexibility is key.
  - mckn1ght 2y ago
    As well as knowledge of, and honesty with, oneself!
- la64710 2y ago
  And also I want to acknowledge everything that ends our career is not in our control .. like the dual forces of global offshoring / outsourcing and relentless automation (including AI driven) will continue to put downward pressure in the career curves of tech workers for next few years/decades.
  - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
    It's interesting that the common sentiment on HN a couple of years ago was the polar opposite of that. I lost count of the number of comments that affirmed the boom was going to go on forever. Software was eating the world, etc.
    - mettamage 2y ago
      Software is steal eating the world, just not for employees. But we will integrate with tech more, as a society. I wonder where brick and mortar stores will be in 20 years.
    - CoastalCoder 2y ago
      I should point out that a perceived shift in the general opinion of the overall group doesn't necessarily mean that a lot of individuals within that group had a shift in opinion. I.e., it's probably affected by who bothers to voice their opinion, and how memorably, at different times.
  - ponector 2y ago
    It depends on the perspective. Global offshoring/outsourcing does an upward pressure in the career curves of tech workers anywhere around the world except few countries.
- rakejake 2y ago
  I don't think the OP is talking about whether to focus on running the race or not, but rather which race to run. As you grow older, the number of open tracks diminishes and that is the point the OP is trying to make. While one can change tracks at any time, success is far from guaranteed. Being a distinguished engineer at 40, one cannot suddenly decide to enter the track for CFO or CEO. The track for that accepted entries 10 years back and is already over-subscribed. Only the CTO track is open at that point and only in certain companies.
  - tossandthrow 2y ago
    I don't think the number of open tracks diminishes. But I do think we generally focus. When one is 55 it is probably not too interest to attempt to go into the race to become and investment banker. Not because it is inherently impossible, but because there are more interesting opportunities. Or at least: I think this narrative is the most productive, and the one I will stick to.
    - rakejake 2y ago
      Depends. If one had been planning to shift tracks earlier in life but something got in the way, there would be some disappointment that the window for that track had passed. But your narrative implicitly signals acceptance of one's station and a realistic assessment of the tracks still open which is probably the right way to go.
  - Gud 2y ago
    Disagree here. Start your own company, boom, you are the CEO.
    - 12thhandyman 2y ago
      Can’t really tell if this is tongue in cheek but starting a company doesn’t make one CEO. It makes them a partner/owner but typically CEO needs a board of directors etc
      - 2y ago
- Sebb767 2y ago
  > This approach to careers fails to take into account that we inherently change as people. OP very much talks about this in the last few paragraphs, both in that you can't plan exactly and that you need to course correct as things change. Also, just because it's okay or may happen that you change tracks within your career, it's still a good idea to optimize the track you are currently on and have an idea of where you want to be. Just coasting because you can't possibly plan your life seems like a strictly inferior option.
  - tossandthrow 2y ago
    You make it sound like I implied that one should life their life nihilistically or with indifference - I definitely do not think one should do that. I thnk there is most satisfaction in putting yourself 100% into whatever you do. But what you do is not strictly limited to your work. Sometimes you put yourself 100% into your family, sometimes it is education, and sometimes it is work.
    - Sebb767 2y ago
      That's fair, but my point is: Irrespective of whether you put 100% or 20% into your work, you should do some planning of your career so that whatever percentage you put into it is reasonably spent. Even when you just plan on spending 10% on your work, planning where you want to end up makes sense.
tschellenbach 2y ago
It's not true that in all companies you have to chose between tech and management. It's true in some companies. But at many companies lead and director roles are very hands on. At Stream a lead is 80% technical, a director roughly 50% sometimes more. And even VPs and up are still somewhat technical. I think the idea of management without technical excellence track is just misguided. Small teams, technical excellence, and leaders who can do the work is the right way.
- f1shy 2y ago
  > It's not true that in all companies you have to chose between tech and management. It's true in some companies. But at many companies lead and director roles are very hands on. I‘ve seen bad companies where it is true, but in good companies typically not true. Look for example Peter Norvig, 100% hands on technical type, but in a high management position.
  - mattgreenrocks 2y ago
    These types of ultra-high IC positions tend to be gate-kept by companies, often requiring a lot of prestige and experience. It's a nice gesture that they exist, but we're not all Rob Pike or Peter Norvig.
    - ZephyrBlu 2y ago
      Yeah, top-level IC positions are much harder to acquire than their equivalent management positions and tend to require some level of public claim to fame.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    > Look for example Peter Norvig, 100% hands on technical type, but in a high management position. Just one time in my career, for about one year, I was tech lead on a small, wildly talented team. When you are "managing" highly-skilled, highly-motivated people who are paid very well... you don't have to do very much. Talk to them for a few mins a day. Be available they have questions. Else, it runs itself. Probably, the biggest enemy of success on those teams is intellectual boredom! I assume that Peter Norvig does very little day-to-day management. Instead, he is working in the same way that I was. It is much harder to be a good manager when you don't have all of the stars aligned: less skilled, or less motivated, or less well paid.
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
I have found that I can't actually plan with much certainty, and, quite often, the very worst thing that can happen, is that Everything Goes As Planned. I have found utility in "overengineering" my life. Not just the tech I do, but in most things, and creating small, robust, high-Quality, and adaptable structures. Things that can be rearranged, and repurposed, when (not "if") the context/paradigm changes. I started maxing out my retirement in 1990, and that's a good thing, because, in 2017, when I finally started looking for work, I was surprised (and disgusted) to find that no one wants to hire us olds. I wasn't planning to retire, but I wasn't consulted by Reality. In my work, I have found utility in writing in modular fashion, and making every module as high-Quality as possible. I've had to toss quite a few, and had to do substantial refactoring on some, but, for the most part, they have served me very well, and continue to do so, to this day.
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  In a similar fashion, I try to address all sorts of corner cases in my code, to the point of being called obsessive by some colleagues - but it definitely helped a few times with really stubborn and obscure bugs. An extra log line here or there, or an e-mail sent to the admin in weird situations, goes a long way - provided that you don't generate many false positives, because no one pays attention to a program that cries "binary wolf" too often.
  - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
    It's always surprised me how many people are happy with somewhat sloppy work, doing just enough to solve a particular issue. Most of the time it doesn't even come from management pressure, it's just the way people work. Perhaps there is something wrong with me but I always want to dot all the i's and cross all the t's.
hcrean 2y ago
This article assumes a lot more self-determinism than is available in practice to most people. Beyond that many of us have been running on fumes for years, I can't lose ten extra hours every week away from seeing my family, so I can up-skill for a new variation on the same career with ultimately the same bull.
- foogazi 2y ago
  What if it’s an article for self-determined people ? Or meant to plant a seed of thought in someone’s mind ? > I can’t lose ten extra hours every week away from seeing my family I hope you find the time to make it work for you. And , I don’t want to assume but so have found “I can’t” attitudes don’t work for effecting change in life. Maybe work on that aspect of your personality.
  - snozolli 2y ago
    "Here, drink this Flavor Aid. If you don't like it, it's a personality defect in you."
  - mathgeek 2y ago
    > And , I don’t want to assume but so have found “I can’t” attitudes don’t work for effecting change in life. I personally subscribe to framing “I can’t” as “I will not”. Then you can view such things as the conscious choices they are. You can also avoid feeling forced to do things just because they are expected of you. E.g. “I can’t give up time with my kids” vs “I will not give up time with my kids”.
- syndicatedjelly 2y ago
  What kind of advice would have been better?
- __turbobrew__ 2y ago
  If your goal is to get a cushy high paying job you will need to make sacrifices, otherwise that job would no longer be cushy and high paying. Some sacrifice their 20s and grind an education, career, and have no kids or spouse. Others put a large burden on their spouse to retrain, you have to weigh the short term toil versus the amortized improvements over your career. And it is important to remember that luck plays a part as well. Some get lucky on their first go around and others never get luck in life. The only thing you can do is maximize the number chances you have for good luck. It is important to live well within your means. Having an extra margin makes job and life changes much easier and lower risk. Many people’s expenses grow to their income and they paint themself into a financial corner. Unfortunately once you are in that spot it becomes much more difficult to get out, and larger sacrifices need to be made. There are always options, and we have more opportunities and “stuff” than any other generation which has lived. Our stuff and jobs should serve us and not the other way around.
mlhpdx 2y ago
I prefer the journey. I don’t want to “be” independent, I want to “become” independent. The former is winning the lottery, the latter is a long and difficult path.
mahmoodz98 2y ago
As someone who has fallen into this trap myself, I feel like many people tend to just go with the flow and then end up in a place they don't like doing work they don't enjoy, with no idea how to get out. This has inspired me to approach my manager about possibly stepping down from my role into a more IC role, or possibly swapping jobs, as I realized a Senior IC is where I want to be
OutOfHere 2y ago
On the contrary, it's those who can't write code that become managers. They're not even good enough to ascend to the truly parasitic executive class.
- itronitron 2y ago
  And those who can't manage people become managers of managers.
Sytten 2y ago
Maybe I am a pessimist but I really don't believe you can plan for 20y in the future especially in the tech sector. People fail to realize that we live in a world that changes not in a linear fashion but rather exponential. For all we know in 10y we will only need 1/5 of the coders we have and IC won't be viable, who knows.
- snozolli 2y ago
  IMO, there's no such thing as a career in tech, outside of maybe FAANGs (or whatever they're called now). It's just a series of jobs until accumulated wealth, ageism, or disability ends it.
  - NoPicklez 2y ago
    I disagree, of course you can have a career in tech. It just depends where you work. You can work a series of jobs in tech, until accumulated wealth, ageism or disability ends it.
  - mupuff1234 2y ago
    The public sector is probably a decent place for a well defined career.
    - throwaway2037 2y ago
      This is a good point. There have a bunch of excellent HN posts about the UK gov technical service. It looks like a good place to work, and, since it is civil service, then likely a good career. I think a lot of HN overlooks working in light & heavy industry. Like: Who is writing software that runs power plants and turbines and ABS breaking systems? There are lots and lots of devs in light and heavy industry. And those companies are old and stable.
  - mxuribe 2y ago
    Ugh, your dagger of truth cuts me so deep...but truthfully so. :-) I'm beginning to feel ageism big time nowadays. And, while i'm thankful that i don't have any impact from disability (yet?!) from employers, the wealth accumulation is not enough to where i'd be comfy just yet. I wonder if "unicorns" outside of FAANGs nowadays are simply trying to accumulate enough wealth from conventional corporate IT jobs to have a comfy retirement like folks from the 60s/70s/80s/90s eras have had? ;-)
fallinditch 2y ago
> Most managers are terrible. A sweeping statement indeed, but it does reflect my experience too. Perhaps it's my ingrained deference to authority - when I start a new position I tend to believe that my manager has my best interests at heart. This is a mistake and I now believe it's better to maintain a kind of defensive attitude and to always be assertive in establishing, and if necessary negotiating, the responsibilities and expectations of your role and your relationship with the manager. This may not necessarily be a personal failing on their part, this may just be a consequence of the operational management system you both work within.
- hobs 2y ago
  As a person whose done it all, independent stuff, senior ic stuff, management stuff, the main thing that makes management terrible is simply that most companies have no support for middle managers. You are a good IC? Sure let's promote you to management, but in 95% of cases, we're not even going to pair you with anyone or have a senior manager help you understand, build and grow - we're going to throw you in the deep end and have you sink or swim. This often ends up with stressed out people used to doing well now approaching an entirely new problem with slow feedback loops and entirely different protocols than before, and the amount of burned out shitty middle managers I see is off the charts.
- mjr00 2y ago
  > A sweeping statement indeed, but it does reflect my experience too. IMO - managers are terrible at the same rate as ICs. But the damage a terrible IC can do is limited in most companies because there's guardrails like automated testing, pull requests, no access to the production database, etc. At worst they end up being a big timesuck for other team members until they get let go. A terrible manager will sink a project or team single-handedly, though.
  - noirbot 2y ago
    There is no code-review process for management decisions. Management is essentially like writing code on the production server all the time. The stakes are maybe a little lower, it's a good bit harder to make disastrous mistakes, but there's no real roll-back or testing for if you're about to ruin your team.
paxys 2y ago
"What do you want to be?" is a question we have all constantly been asked since middle school by parents, teachers, career counsellors, professors, recruiters, mentors, managers, HR and lots of other well meaning souls. My answer is the same at 40 as it was at 14 – I don't know. And you know what? I've been fine. I have worked at some great companies, and some not so great ones. A couple FAANGs as well as a 20-person startup and everything in between. I have been part of some fantastic product teams and a fair number of disasters. I have been a code monkey, an architect, a tech lead, a staff engineer, a manager, a director...and now know that none of these fancy titles really mean anything. And throughout all this I have managed to put a decent chunk of money in the bank. Most would consider my career to be pretty successful. I like to say that I don't really have a career but simply jump from one project to the next and one opportunity to the next depending on how the wind is blowing. Never once have I had any semblance of a "plan" or a "goal". And despite what all the authority figures in your life will tell you, that is a perfectly fine way to live and be happy.
- analog31 2y ago
  A friend of mine, who is quite successful in his occupation, told me that his motto is: "Always do the next thing." Our culture possesses this weird belief, that people always need to be transformed. This cuts across all ideologies, ranging from religion to Marxism and corporate culture. I think simply declaring "bullshit" to that belief can lead to a much happier life.
- rakejake 2y ago
  I'm happy to hear this. Cheers.
- piecerough 2y ago
  Have you had a common theme for these projects you navigated?
- dclowd9901 2y ago
  I think he covers this early on: if you don't aspire for anything more, congrats. Incidentally I'm in the same boat. Literally told my manager "nope, not really interested in pursuing a promotion. Just want to be paid fairly and continue working at this level." They actually appreciated having one less engineer that they have to try to cultivate a career for.
yawnxyz 2y ago
Plans are worthless, but planning is everything. It's not entirely clear that much of this field will look the same in five years, but still, I think doing the thinking and the planning for the sake of mapping out the route is important. If only to inform you that no, you don't want any of those routes. (I did this planning and ended up in academia/microbiology, as a product designer, for better or worse but it's been fun)
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  My wife asks me from time to time: "What do you need to learn now for the next five years of your career?" It's a great question. It is also, I think, the right time frame, though one could argue for three years instead of five. Given the terrain I see now, I can plan for the next five years, and have those plans be mostly reasonable most of the time. Past that is harder.
  - yawnxyz 2y ago
    I honestly have no idea what to even plan for the next couple of years and it's stressful
    - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
      Plan for AI to be a tool that can help you, but not one that will replace you. Learn how to use it to help you; learn how far you can listen to it and how far you can't. If you're in embedded systems, probably learn Rust. If you're in Android apps, probably learn Kotlin. If you're in web programming, I have no idea how to advise you, but there are others who can.
equestria 2y ago
Here's the thing about the average career in big tech: five years after you leave, almost no one will remember you were there. Most of your old team mates will leave for other other jobs. Your code will get refactored or rewritten. Docs will be superseded, then lost in some CMS migration. Before long, it will be as if you have never worked there. I know it sounds preposterous, but ask anyone over the age of 55 or 60: except for folks who built their own companies or made truly exceptional contributions to their field, most will say that hobbies, friends, and family mattered a lot more. So, there is this fundamental contradiction in this article: you can engineer a very neat career, but for most techies, the most useful goal is to make money fast in a way that doesn't drain your life energy. And most of the time, this means responding to opportunities, not sticking to your guns. For example, a lifetime IC job may be ultimately worth less than a management job that gets you to VP level in a decade. You don't need to dream about being a manager; you just need to be reasonably good at it.
- paganel 2y ago
  The problem with that is that it drains away your life energy in your late 20s and throughout your 30s, and in fact it's not only about draining one's energy, let's say that would be fine up to a point, but it drains away your purpose in life, and, in the end, your will to live. I refuse to believe that there are people whose purpose in life is to be a manager/VP, and, if they are, they might as well be walking corpses for all I know.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - mjr00 2y ago
    > I refuse to believe that there are people whose purpose in life is to be be a manager/VP, and, if they are, they might as well be walking corpses for all I know. You could say the same thing about ICs though -- "I refuse to believe there are people whose purpose in life is to spend 5 days a week for 3 years building an enterprise line-of-business app to automate an obscure legacy business process that will be used by 10 people in total, and all 10 of those people will complain about the new app and wish they could go back to doing things the old way"
coldcode 2y ago
I never intended to have a career as a programmer. I planned to work for two years, save a bit of money, and get a PhD in Chemistry. Forty years later I retired as a programmer. Every step was something new, I had 15 different employers (plus myself for 9 years starting two little companies). There was never a plan beyond finding a better/different/less irritating job, and constantly improving what I could do. I never gave any thought to what I wanted to end my career on. It actually ended entirely as my decision, I still was at the top of my ability, and my employer was happy to pay me, but I was tired of working. While planning might work for some people, having a more short term view can work for others. The only thing I could ever control was what I was able to do, and when I was ready to move on. There are many optimizations available to succeed in life; not all are obvious.
- mettamage 2y ago
  Could you describe how each job hop was less annoying than the less? I know it’s a big ask. I am just insanely curious to know.
- yodsanklai 2y ago
  > While planning might work for some people, having a more short term view can work for others One thing I noticed is that what I valued in my 20s wasn't what I valued in my 30s and 40s. It's difficult to anticipate who you will be in a few years from now. It may change drastically. Keep that in mind when planning!
- nickd2001 2y ago
  Agree with the above. Seems to me, the many of us "going with the flow" without a thorough long-term plan, are perhaps applying Agile development principles to our "career" (aka series of jobs) , whereas the author is taking the nowadays-apparently-discredited Waterfall approach , where supposedly you can know where you're going to be at date X. Which of course we now know doesn't actually work out in software. And as for careers, even more so. One cannot predict the overall economy, or who one might marry , how many kids one might have, whether everyone is healthy in extended family, what one might feel like doing to be happy later on etc ;)
readthenotes1 2y ago
I have advised multiple people in their 50s that they are no longer seeking a position, they are looking for a decent paying job. Career progression should be dominated by FIRE...
applied_heat 2y ago
I am curious about how he accidentally shut down a nuclear reactor.
giantg2 2y ago
Joke's on them. I have a job, not a career.
rakejake 2y ago
Yes, I do find that a lot of people get caught in whatever race they started running in the beginning of their careers and don't care to stop for a bit and try retrospecting/introspecting. I recently took a break from work with the intention of working on some side projects and also thinking about what it is I like to do (somewhat along the lines mentioned in the article - do I want to stay on my current trajectory and try to hit senior IC, management etc). I am only about 6 years into my career, perhaps a bit early for a sabbatical but I felt this was the right time for it. I had a pretty good reputation in my job and I could have done the thinking while on the job, yet I felt I couldn't. I am helped by not having any financial concerns or other responsibilities. I am not sure what I expect to gain from this though most people assume that either I must be starting my own business or chilling at home although neither is true. I took care to put some structure into it so I don't while away the time scrolling HN. I don't think I will get a sudden epiphany but feel if I put in some hours without any external constraints, something might happen. The worst that could happen is that I have to write off this time and go back to running the race in my IC track.
mettamage 2y ago
I feel the discussion needs to be opened up to other ends of careers. My favorite career end that I'm naturally working towards to is the ability to jop hob to different roles without having prior experience. One way to do that is to be able to show in an interview that you have transferable skills and learn crazy fast. Another facet of that is that you need to identify companies that are open to this sort of thing. Another career end is to become rich and not work. It's not achievable for everyone of course. But it is a type of career end. Other career ends that one becomes disabled and live on disability checks or welfare. To me, it seems that this is a career end that people want to avoid. I feel digital nomads aren't really represented in this career end. You could put it under independence, but the characterization of independence in this blog post was quite narrow which is why I feel the need to state it explicitly. Some people are in their career end when they can just work remote 4 days and have a decent salary. There are many more career ends, what could you come up with?
- itronitron 2y ago
  The more capable you are, the more experience and ability you will have with specialized skills which will result in people that don't have those capabilities to think that your skills are not transferable. If you find a magic workaround to that, please let us know.
- mxuribe 2y ago
  > ...My favorite career end that I'm naturally working towards to is the ability to jop hob to different roles without having prior experience. One way to do that is to be able to show in an interview that you have transferable skills and learn crazy fast. Another facet of that is that you need to identify companies that are open to this sort of thing... Maybe its been the job hunting climate of the most recent decade or so...but I no longer see opportunities for jobs where employers are willing to take on someone who might be awesomely enthusiastic, and well-rounded, but lack a very super-specific set of skills. This also goes back to those ridiculous job descriptions where an employer __"requires"__ a candidate to have, let's say, 10 years of a specific experience - even though said skill might have only existed for slightly over 10 years. I wish i could do something like that: sort of jump to a different role without prior experience (or at least very little experience)....For me it would be more of an intellectual fulfillment, and wanting to learn more, etc...And, for any employer who would give me that chance, i'd legit give them 110%! But, i'm not holding my breath for that.
hn72774 2y ago
The end of my career is uncertain. My entire career has been uncertain. Not completely unplanned, but rather has progressed in ways I could never have predicted. I had luck and opportunity to ride the cloud computing wave and it carried me into software development and distributed analytics systems, from a B.A degree in business. 20 years of lateral moves up to Sr. Level, but never outside of IC, yet. I daydream about turning my DIY skills into some type of construction trades business while I am physically able. Or testing the waters with software consulting. Manager role is not appealing working for someone else's company although just like construction trades, being an apprentice in that role is probably going to be the best way to learn it. I dread the meetings and politics and employee reviews. But if I really want to run my own business, at some my point I may need to be a manager on someone else's payroll. Even if just for a year.
moffkalast 2y ago
> career ending mistake > the time I inadvertently shut down one of Britain’s nuclear power stations There is a scram joke in there somewhere ;)
loup-vaillant 2y ago
> You probably won’t get to choose what to work on, and you may not agree with all the decisions of the powers that be. In fact, it’s practically certain you won’t. After all, you know more about the subject matter than they do. Wait a minute if the people most suited to make a decision are overridden by people less competent than them (they have to be most of the time, given the different focus of their career), that's kind of a problem, isn't it? Is there any way to avoid such structural failures?
- rakejake 2y ago
  Less competent in what? The people with decision-making power are supposed to be good at some combination of product innovation, product management, sales, marketing and accounting. ICs are only suited to making some decisions in the first two, and have next to zero expertise in the others.
  - loup-vaillant 2y ago
    I'm afraid "supposed to" is the operating word here. In practice, the people who make the calls more often does not do so because they inherited a crap load of money, not because their own genius or hard work raised them to the top.
deleted 2y ago
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dfedbeef 2y ago
The mistake I see people make it _not_ ending their career out of narcissism, pride, ego, etc. I am not a religious person but it is good to remember you will die. You should have some better stuff to put on your tombstone than your job title. People aren't going to care who you were in 100 years and people aren't going to remember you in 1000 years. Your tombstone will crumble in the dirt. Spend time with people you love, spend time with your family and friends. Find meaning without economic strings attached.
- dfedbeef 2y ago
  Oh and by the way: you might die sooner than you think. It happens all the time. Are you spending time the way you want?
- joshuamcginnis 2y ago
  I highly recommend folks read Ecclesiastes, which opens with "Everything Is Meaningless". It's a philosophical book on what matters in life (and what doesn't). What do people gain from all their labors at which they toil under the sun? Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever. No one remembers the former generations, and even those yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow them.
negus 2y ago
> Lao Tzu teaches: the best fighter is never angry. More important than the blow is knowing when to strike Seems like a fake citation https://www.taoistic.com/fake-laotzu-quotes/fake-laotzu-quote-The_best_fighter_is_never_angry.htm https://www.taoistic.com/fake-laotzu-quotes/fake-laotzu-quot...
- itronitron 2y ago
  Yeah, the Lao Tzu I know advises people to be simple, like uncarved blocks of wood.
- apocadam 2y ago
  The person (Denpok) who quotes it is a charlatan posing as a guru, which makes the fake citation fitting.
urbandw311er 2y ago
What a useful, well written article. Thanks for sharing.
ghm2180 2y ago
Does someone know how to find good IC coaches that can mentor a mid-level(ish) engineer 8+ YoE? I have issues with rejection and I am working on them. I am a generalist, and I have been struggling with how to find opportunities myself by connecting to people 1:1 and discussing first hand the nature of the problem and whether I can help them with it. I imagine a coach help me typically with forming a coherent career statement and pointers on how to have these conversation.
- ghm2180 2y ago
  I want to be able to work as a generalist who can learn most coding stacks and a wide range of experience in backend(ranking/recommendation) systems, data engineering and some early career full stack experience.
- GMoromisato 2y ago
  I'm always happy to talk through career and engineering issues. Hit me up, if you're interested: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neurohack/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/neurohack/
cushychicken 2y ago
I like this authors frame of reference. Independence is definitely my goal. I want to get to a point where I can start an independent EE consultancy, then slowly get more and more selective about my clientele, until I choose to stop working.
mixmastamyk 2y ago
One thing I didn't anticipate when younger is the extent that other people will prevent your advancement. Whether by being in the way, *isms - a.k.a. refusing to hire you for positions you'd be great at, or very common today... the majority of companies that no longer train or encourage career development. Because you might leave? Advancement seems to be lot of outmaneuvering these folks.
- cheema33 2y ago
  > very common today... the majority of companies that no longer train or encourage career development. I don't get this. What is stopping anyone from doing that themselves? Why does someone else have to do it?
  - mixmastamyk 2y ago
    It's investing in your workforce and demonstrates a level of respect and supports loyalty. No, the lack never stopped me from learning. Professional experience however is valued more highly than... yes I fired up ABC at home. Or I led a team doing XYZ and now can do that for my employer.
assanineass 2y ago
Good read
mrbombastic 2y ago
“Managing people is hard; much harder than programming. Computers just do what you tell them, whether that’s right or wrong (usually wrong). Anyone can get good at programming, if they’re willing to put in enough time and effort. I’m not sure anyone can get good at managing, and most don’t. Most managers are terrible. That’s quite a sweeping statement, I know. (Prove me wrong, managers, prove me wrong.) But, really, would a car mechanic last long in the job if they couldn’t fit a tyre, or change a spark plug? Would a doctor succeed if they regularly amputated the wrong leg? We would hope not. But many managers are just as incompetent, in their own field, and yet they seem to get away with it.” The fact that most managers are terrible doesn’t really prove managing is hard. in fact you could make a case it proves the opposite, the fact that most managers are terrible shows that management is easy, at least if we are talking about what it takes to keep your job. FWIW I would agree with the point that being a good manager is hard but I don’t think this argument holds water.
jotaen 2y ago
2022; previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30428602 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30428602
hintymad 2y ago
Great article and thought provoking. > and unlike your colleagues in management, you won’t spend all day in meetings. The author will be surprised. In a bureaucratic company like Google, even an E6 can spend all their time having meetings and writing docs, to the point that they even get rusty at drawing boxes. > If you want to reach this level, you’ll need to become a master of your chosen craft One thing that worries me is that mastery also means specialization, and specialization is the most risky when there's a paradigm shift. My cope is to be specialized in a category. For instance, be a specialist in distributed systems instead of being a master of building Spring-boot services. That said, even that type of specialization is not immune to paradigm shift. Case in point, scaling out a service is really not that hard these days compared to 10 years ago.
jimmaswell 2y ago
> If you love what you’re doing now and don’t ever want to change jobs, great: you’ve reached the end of your career Guess I'm there. I don't know how common my mindset is around here, but I have a relatively low stress, unexciting remote job in web dev. It's not glamorous or particularly interesting, but it pays well and offers the flexibility for me to travel a lot/spend time with loved ones and have extra mental energy for my hobbies. Well worth the tradeoff for me personally - I have no particular impetus to climb the corporate ladder when I already make six figures in a low cost of living area.
drillsteps5 2y ago
Like the article, not fan of the title. I understand it's supposed to be catchy, but it is just not accurate. Planning for the next phase of your career would be better. Planning of the end of the career is a very valid topic, but it's a different one (planning for retirement).

362 points by gus_leonel 2y ago

This approach to careers fails to take into account that we inherently change as people. In periods of ones life other things matters - maybe it is taking an education, starting a family, etc. Other periods work matter. It should be entirely fine to switch it on and off and change tracks throughout life - and in my view it seems like it is! To reach a peak it takes roughly 10 years, but these 10 years can be started at 40 when your kids does not wear diapers anymore.

mettamage 2y ago
Well said: I think in this sense, flexibility is key.
- mckn1ght 2y ago
  As well as knowledge of, and honesty with, oneself!
la64710 2y ago
And also I want to acknowledge everything that ends our career is not in our control .. like the dual forces of global offshoring / outsourcing and relentless automation (including AI driven) will continue to put downward pressure in the career curves of tech workers for next few years/decades.
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago
  It's interesting that the common sentiment on HN a couple of years ago was the polar opposite of that. I lost count of the number of comments that affirmed the boom was going to go on forever. Software was eating the world, etc.
  - mettamage 2y ago
    Software is steal eating the world, just not for employees. But we will integrate with tech more, as a society. I wonder where brick and mortar stores will be in 20 years.
  - CoastalCoder 2y ago
    I should point out that a perceived shift in the general opinion of the overall group doesn't necessarily mean that a lot of individuals within that group had a shift in opinion. I.e., it's probably affected by who bothers to voice their opinion, and how memorably, at different times.
- ponector 2y ago
  It depends on the perspective. Global offshoring/outsourcing does an upward pressure in the career curves of tech workers anywhere around the world except few countries.
rakejake 2y ago
I don't think the OP is talking about whether to focus on running the race or not, but rather which race to run. As you grow older, the number of open tracks diminishes and that is the point the OP is trying to make. While one can change tracks at any time, success is far from guaranteed. Being a distinguished engineer at 40, one cannot suddenly decide to enter the track for CFO or CEO. The track for that accepted entries 10 years back and is already over-subscribed. Only the CTO track is open at that point and only in certain companies.
- tossandthrow 2y ago
  I don't think the number of open tracks diminishes. But I do think we generally focus. When one is 55 it is probably not too interest to attempt to go into the race to become and investment banker. Not because it is inherently impossible, but because there are more interesting opportunities. Or at least: I think this narrative is the most productive, and the one I will stick to.
  - rakejake 2y ago
    Depends. If one had been planning to shift tracks earlier in life but something got in the way, there would be some disappointment that the window for that track had passed. But your narrative implicitly signals acceptance of one's station and a realistic assessment of the tracks still open which is probably the right way to go.
- Gud 2y ago
  Disagree here. Start your own company, boom, you are the CEO.
  - 12thhandyman 2y ago
    Can’t really tell if this is tongue in cheek but starting a company doesn’t make one CEO. It makes them a partner/owner but typically CEO needs a board of directors etc
    - 2y ago
Sebb767 2y ago
> This approach to careers fails to take into account that we inherently change as people. OP very much talks about this in the last few paragraphs, both in that you can't plan exactly and that you need to course correct as things change. Also, just because it's okay or may happen that you change tracks within your career, it's still a good idea to optimize the track you are currently on and have an idea of where you want to be. Just coasting because you can't possibly plan your life seems like a strictly inferior option.
- tossandthrow 2y ago
  You make it sound like I implied that one should life their life nihilistically or with indifference - I definitely do not think one should do that. I thnk there is most satisfaction in putting yourself 100% into whatever you do. But what you do is not strictly limited to your work. Sometimes you put yourself 100% into your family, sometimes it is education, and sometimes it is work.
  - Sebb767 2y ago
    That's fair, but my point is: Irrespective of whether you put 100% or 20% into your work, you should do some planning of your career so that whatever percentage you put into it is reasonably spent. Even when you just plan on spending 10% on your work, planning where you want to end up makes sense.

tschellenbach 2y ago

It's not true that in all companies you have to chose between tech and management. It's true in some companies. But at many companies lead and director roles are very hands on. At Stream a lead is 80% technical, a director roughly 50% sometimes more. And even VPs and up are still somewhat technical. I think the idea of management without technical excellence track is just misguided. Small teams, technical excellence, and leaders who can do the work is the right way.

f1shy 2y ago
> It's not true that in all companies you have to chose between tech and management. It's true in some companies. But at many companies lead and director roles are very hands on. I‘ve seen bad companies where it is true, but in good companies typically not true. Look for example Peter Norvig, 100% hands on technical type, but in a high management position.
- mattgreenrocks 2y ago
  These types of ultra-high IC positions tend to be gate-kept by companies, often requiring a lot of prestige and experience. It's a nice gesture that they exist, but we're not all Rob Pike or Peter Norvig.
  - ZephyrBlu 2y ago
    Yeah, top-level IC positions are much harder to acquire than their equivalent management positions and tend to require some level of public claim to fame.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  > Look for example Peter Norvig, 100% hands on technical type, but in a high management position. Just one time in my career, for about one year, I was tech lead on a small, wildly talented team. When you are "managing" highly-skilled, highly-motivated people who are paid very well... you don't have to do very much. Talk to them for a few mins a day. Be available they have questions. Else, it runs itself. Probably, the biggest enemy of success on those teams is intellectual boredom! I assume that Peter Norvig does very little day-to-day management. Instead, he is working in the same way that I was. It is much harder to be a good manager when you don't have all of the stars aligned: less skilled, or less motivated, or less well paid.

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago

I have found that I can't actually plan with much certainty, and, quite often, the very worst thing that can happen, is that Everything Goes As Planned. I have found utility in "overengineering" my life. Not just the tech I do, but in most things, and creating small, robust, high-Quality, and adaptable structures. Things that can be rearranged, and repurposed, when (not "if") the context/paradigm changes. I started maxing out my retirement in 1990, and that's a good thing, because, in 2017, when I finally started looking for work, I was surprised (and disgusted) to find that no one wants to hire us olds. I wasn't planning to retire, but I wasn't consulted by Reality. In my work, I have found utility in writing in modular fashion, and making every module as high-Quality as possible. I've had to toss quite a few, and had to do substantial refactoring on some, but, for the most part, they have served me very well, and continue to do so, to this day.

inglor_cz 2y ago
In a similar fashion, I try to address all sorts of corner cases in my code, to the point of being called obsessive by some colleagues - but it definitely helped a few times with really stubborn and obscure bugs. An extra log line here or there, or an e-mail sent to the admin in weird situations, goes a long way - provided that you don't generate many false positives, because no one pays attention to a program that cries "binary wolf" too often.
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago
  It's always surprised me how many people are happy with somewhat sloppy work, doing just enough to solve a particular issue. Most of the time it doesn't even come from management pressure, it's just the way people work. Perhaps there is something wrong with me but I always want to dot all the i's and cross all the t's.

hcrean 2y ago

This article assumes a lot more self-determinism than is available in practice to most people. Beyond that many of us have been running on fumes for years, I can't lose ten extra hours every week away from seeing my family, so I can up-skill for a new variation on the same career with ultimately the same bull.

foogazi 2y ago
What if it’s an article for self-determined people ? Or meant to plant a seed of thought in someone’s mind ? > I can’t lose ten extra hours every week away from seeing my family I hope you find the time to make it work for you. And , I don’t want to assume but so have found “I can’t” attitudes don’t work for effecting change in life. Maybe work on that aspect of your personality.
- snozolli 2y ago
  "Here, drink this Flavor Aid. If you don't like it, it's a personality defect in you."
- mathgeek 2y ago
  > And , I don’t want to assume but so have found “I can’t” attitudes don’t work for effecting change in life. I personally subscribe to framing “I can’t” as “I will not”. Then you can view such things as the conscious choices they are. You can also avoid feeling forced to do things just because they are expected of you. E.g. “I can’t give up time with my kids” vs “I will not give up time with my kids”.
syndicatedjelly 2y ago
What kind of advice would have been better?
__turbobrew__ 2y ago
If your goal is to get a cushy high paying job you will need to make sacrifices, otherwise that job would no longer be cushy and high paying. Some sacrifice their 20s and grind an education, career, and have no kids or spouse. Others put a large burden on their spouse to retrain, you have to weigh the short term toil versus the amortized improvements over your career. And it is important to remember that luck plays a part as well. Some get lucky on their first go around and others never get luck in life. The only thing you can do is maximize the number chances you have for good luck. It is important to live well within your means. Having an extra margin makes job and life changes much easier and lower risk. Many people’s expenses grow to their income and they paint themself into a financial corner. Unfortunately once you are in that spot it becomes much more difficult to get out, and larger sacrifices need to be made. There are always options, and we have more opportunities and “stuff” than any other generation which has lived. Our stuff and jobs should serve us and not the other way around.

mlhpdx 2y ago

I prefer the journey. I don’t want to “be” independent, I want to “become” independent. The former is winning the lottery, the latter is a long and difficult path.

mahmoodz98 2y ago

As someone who has fallen into this trap myself, I feel like many people tend to just go with the flow and then end up in a place they don't like doing work they don't enjoy, with no idea how to get out. This has inspired me to approach my manager about possibly stepping down from my role into a more IC role, or possibly swapping jobs, as I realized a Senior IC is where I want to be

OutOfHere 2y ago

On the contrary, it's those who can't write code that become managers. They're not even good enough to ascend to the truly parasitic executive class.

itronitron 2y ago
And those who can't manage people become managers of managers.

Sytten 2y ago

Maybe I am a pessimist but I really don't believe you can plan for 20y in the future especially in the tech sector. People fail to realize that we live in a world that changes not in a linear fashion but rather exponential. For all we know in 10y we will only need 1/5 of the coders we have and IC won't be viable, who knows.

snozolli 2y ago
IMO, there's no such thing as a career in tech, outside of maybe FAANGs (or whatever they're called now). It's just a series of jobs until accumulated wealth, ageism, or disability ends it.
- NoPicklez 2y ago
  I disagree, of course you can have a career in tech. It just depends where you work. You can work a series of jobs in tech, until accumulated wealth, ageism or disability ends it.
- mupuff1234 2y ago
  The public sector is probably a decent place for a well defined career.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    This is a good point. There have a bunch of excellent HN posts about the UK gov technical service. It looks like a good place to work, and, since it is civil service, then likely a good career. I think a lot of HN overlooks working in light & heavy industry. Like: Who is writing software that runs power plants and turbines and ABS breaking systems? There are lots and lots of devs in light and heavy industry. And those companies are old and stable.
- mxuribe 2y ago
  Ugh, your dagger of truth cuts me so deep...but truthfully so. :-) I'm beginning to feel ageism big time nowadays. And, while i'm thankful that i don't have any impact from disability (yet?!) from employers, the wealth accumulation is not enough to where i'd be comfy just yet. I wonder if "unicorns" outside of FAANGs nowadays are simply trying to accumulate enough wealth from conventional corporate IT jobs to have a comfy retirement like folks from the 60s/70s/80s/90s eras have had? ;-)

fallinditch 2y ago

> Most managers are terrible. A sweeping statement indeed, but it does reflect my experience too. Perhaps it's my ingrained deference to authority - when I start a new position I tend to believe that my manager has my best interests at heart. This is a mistake and I now believe it's better to maintain a kind of defensive attitude and to always be assertive in establishing, and if necessary negotiating, the responsibilities and expectations of your role and your relationship with the manager. This may not necessarily be a personal failing on their part, this may just be a consequence of the operational management system you both work within.

hobs 2y ago
As a person whose done it all, independent stuff, senior ic stuff, management stuff, the main thing that makes management terrible is simply that most companies have no support for middle managers. You are a good IC? Sure let's promote you to management, but in 95% of cases, we're not even going to pair you with anyone or have a senior manager help you understand, build and grow - we're going to throw you in the deep end and have you sink or swim. This often ends up with stressed out people used to doing well now approaching an entirely new problem with slow feedback loops and entirely different protocols than before, and the amount of burned out shitty middle managers I see is off the charts.
mjr00 2y ago
> A sweeping statement indeed, but it does reflect my experience too. IMO - managers are terrible at the same rate as ICs. But the damage a terrible IC can do is limited in most companies because there's guardrails like automated testing, pull requests, no access to the production database, etc. At worst they end up being a big timesuck for other team members until they get let go. A terrible manager will sink a project or team single-handedly, though.
- noirbot 2y ago
  There is no code-review process for management decisions. Management is essentially like writing code on the production server all the time. The stakes are maybe a little lower, it's a good bit harder to make disastrous mistakes, but there's no real roll-back or testing for if you're about to ruin your team.

paxys 2y ago

"What do you want to be?" is a question we have all constantly been asked since middle school by parents, teachers, career counsellors, professors, recruiters, mentors, managers, HR and lots of other well meaning souls. My answer is the same at 40 as it was at 14 – I don't know. And you know what? I've been fine. I have worked at some great companies, and some not so great ones. A couple FAANGs as well as a 20-person startup and everything in between. I have been part of some fantastic product teams and a fair number of disasters. I have been a code monkey, an architect, a tech lead, a staff engineer, a manager, a director...and now know that none of these fancy titles really mean anything. And throughout all this I have managed to put a decent chunk of money in the bank. Most would consider my career to be pretty successful. I like to say that I don't really have a career but simply jump from one project to the next and one opportunity to the next depending on how the wind is blowing. Never once have I had any semblance of a "plan" or a "goal". And despite what all the authority figures in your life will tell you, that is a perfectly fine way to live and be happy.

analog31 2y ago
A friend of mine, who is quite successful in his occupation, told me that his motto is: "Always do the next thing." Our culture possesses this weird belief, that people always need to be transformed. This cuts across all ideologies, ranging from religion to Marxism and corporate culture. I think simply declaring "bullshit" to that belief can lead to a much happier life.
rakejake 2y ago
I'm happy to hear this. Cheers.
piecerough 2y ago
Have you had a common theme for these projects you navigated?
dclowd9901 2y ago
I think he covers this early on: if you don't aspire for anything more, congrats. Incidentally I'm in the same boat. Literally told my manager "nope, not really interested in pursuing a promotion. Just want to be paid fairly and continue working at this level." They actually appreciated having one less engineer that they have to try to cultivate a career for.

yawnxyz 2y ago

Plans are worthless, but planning is everything. It's not entirely clear that much of this field will look the same in five years, but still, I think doing the thinking and the planning for the sake of mapping out the route is important. If only to inform you that no, you don't want any of those routes. (I did this planning and ended up in academia/microbiology, as a product designer, for better or worse but it's been fun)

AnimalMuppet 2y ago
My wife asks me from time to time: "What do you need to learn now for the next five years of your career?" It's a great question. It is also, I think, the right time frame, though one could argue for three years instead of five. Given the terrain I see now, I can plan for the next five years, and have those plans be mostly reasonable most of the time. Past that is harder.
- yawnxyz 2y ago
  I honestly have no idea what to even plan for the next couple of years and it's stressful
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    Plan for AI to be a tool that can help you, but not one that will replace you. Learn how to use it to help you; learn how far you can listen to it and how far you can't. If you're in embedded systems, probably learn Rust. If you're in Android apps, probably learn Kotlin. If you're in web programming, I have no idea how to advise you, but there are others who can.

equestria 2y ago

Here's the thing about the average career in big tech: five years after you leave, almost no one will remember you were there. Most of your old team mates will leave for other other jobs. Your code will get refactored or rewritten. Docs will be superseded, then lost in some CMS migration. Before long, it will be as if you have never worked there. I know it sounds preposterous, but ask anyone over the age of 55 or 60: except for folks who built their own companies or made truly exceptional contributions to their field, most will say that hobbies, friends, and family mattered a lot more. So, there is this fundamental contradiction in this article: you can engineer a very neat career, but for most techies, the most useful goal is to make money fast in a way that doesn't drain your life energy. And most of the time, this means responding to opportunities, not sticking to your guns. For example, a lifetime IC job may be ultimately worth less than a management job that gets you to VP level in a decade. You don't need to dream about being a manager; you just need to be reasonably good at it.

paganel 2y ago
The problem with that is that it drains away your life energy in your late 20s and throughout your 30s, and in fact it's not only about draining one's energy, let's say that would be fine up to a point, but it drains away your purpose in life, and, in the end, your will to live. I refuse to believe that there are people whose purpose in life is to be a manager/VP, and, if they are, they might as well be walking corpses for all I know.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- mjr00 2y ago
  > I refuse to believe that there are people whose purpose in life is to be be a manager/VP, and, if they are, they might as well be walking corpses for all I know. You could say the same thing about ICs though -- "I refuse to believe there are people whose purpose in life is to spend 5 days a week for 3 years building an enterprise line-of-business app to automate an obscure legacy business process that will be used by 10 people in total, and all 10 of those people will complain about the new app and wish they could go back to doing things the old way"

coldcode 2y ago

I never intended to have a career as a programmer. I planned to work for two years, save a bit of money, and get a PhD in Chemistry. Forty years later I retired as a programmer. Every step was something new, I had 15 different employers (plus myself for 9 years starting two little companies). There was never a plan beyond finding a better/different/less irritating job, and constantly improving what I could do. I never gave any thought to what I wanted to end my career on. It actually ended entirely as my decision, I still was at the top of my ability, and my employer was happy to pay me, but I was tired of working. While planning might work for some people, having a more short term view can work for others. The only thing I could ever control was what I was able to do, and when I was ready to move on. There are many optimizations available to succeed in life; not all are obvious.

mettamage 2y ago
Could you describe how each job hop was less annoying than the less? I know it’s a big ask. I am just insanely curious to know.
yodsanklai 2y ago
> While planning might work for some people, having a more short term view can work for others One thing I noticed is that what I valued in my 20s wasn't what I valued in my 30s and 40s. It's difficult to anticipate who you will be in a few years from now. It may change drastically. Keep that in mind when planning!
nickd2001 2y ago
Agree with the above. Seems to me, the many of us "going with the flow" without a thorough long-term plan, are perhaps applying Agile development principles to our "career" (aka series of jobs) , whereas the author is taking the nowadays-apparently-discredited Waterfall approach , where supposedly you can know where you're going to be at date X. Which of course we now know doesn't actually work out in software. And as for careers, even more so. One cannot predict the overall economy, or who one might marry , how many kids one might have, whether everyone is healthy in extended family, what one might feel like doing to be happy later on etc ;)

readthenotes1 2y ago

I have advised multiple people in their 50s that they are no longer seeking a position, they are looking for a decent paying job. Career progression should be dominated by FIRE...

applied_heat 2y ago

I am curious about how he accidentally shut down a nuclear reactor.

giantg2 2y ago

Joke's on them. I have a job, not a career.

rakejake 2y ago

Yes, I do find that a lot of people get caught in whatever race they started running in the beginning of their careers and don't care to stop for a bit and try retrospecting/introspecting. I recently took a break from work with the intention of working on some side projects and also thinking about what it is I like to do (somewhat along the lines mentioned in the article - do I want to stay on my current trajectory and try to hit senior IC, management etc). I am only about 6 years into my career, perhaps a bit early for a sabbatical but I felt this was the right time for it. I had a pretty good reputation in my job and I could have done the thinking while on the job, yet I felt I couldn't. I am helped by not having any financial concerns or other responsibilities. I am not sure what I expect to gain from this though most people assume that either I must be starting my own business or chilling at home although neither is true. I took care to put some structure into it so I don't while away the time scrolling HN. I don't think I will get a sudden epiphany but feel if I put in some hours without any external constraints, something might happen. The worst that could happen is that I have to write off this time and go back to running the race in my IC track.

mettamage 2y ago

I feel the discussion needs to be opened up to other ends of careers. My favorite career end that I'm naturally working towards to is the ability to jop hob to different roles without having prior experience. One way to do that is to be able to show in an interview that you have transferable skills and learn crazy fast. Another facet of that is that you need to identify companies that are open to this sort of thing. Another career end is to become rich and not work. It's not achievable for everyone of course. But it is a type of career end. Other career ends that one becomes disabled and live on disability checks or welfare. To me, it seems that this is a career end that people want to avoid. I feel digital nomads aren't really represented in this career end. You could put it under independence, but the characterization of independence in this blog post was quite narrow which is why I feel the need to state it explicitly. Some people are in their career end when they can just work remote 4 days and have a decent salary. There are many more career ends, what could you come up with?

itronitron 2y ago
The more capable you are, the more experience and ability you will have with specialized skills which will result in people that don't have those capabilities to think that your skills are not transferable. If you find a magic workaround to that, please let us know.
mxuribe 2y ago
> ...My favorite career end that I'm naturally working towards to is the ability to jop hob to different roles without having prior experience. One way to do that is to be able to show in an interview that you have transferable skills and learn crazy fast. Another facet of that is that you need to identify companies that are open to this sort of thing... Maybe its been the job hunting climate of the most recent decade or so...but I no longer see opportunities for jobs where employers are willing to take on someone who might be awesomely enthusiastic, and well-rounded, but lack a very super-specific set of skills. This also goes back to those ridiculous job descriptions where an employer __"requires"__ a candidate to have, let's say, 10 years of a specific experience - even though said skill might have only existed for slightly over 10 years. I wish i could do something like that: sort of jump to a different role without prior experience (or at least very little experience)....For me it would be more of an intellectual fulfillment, and wanting to learn more, etc...And, for any employer who would give me that chance, i'd legit give them 110%! But, i'm not holding my breath for that.

hn72774 2y ago

The end of my career is uncertain. My entire career has been uncertain. Not completely unplanned, but rather has progressed in ways I could never have predicted. I had luck and opportunity to ride the cloud computing wave and it carried me into software development and distributed analytics systems, from a B.A degree in business. 20 years of lateral moves up to Sr. Level, but never outside of IC, yet. I daydream about turning my DIY skills into some type of construction trades business while I am physically able. Or testing the waters with software consulting. Manager role is not appealing working for someone else's company although just like construction trades, being an apprentice in that role is probably going to be the best way to learn it. I dread the meetings and politics and employee reviews. But if I really want to run my own business, at some my point I may need to be a manager on someone else's payroll. Even if just for a year.

moffkalast 2y ago

> career ending mistake > the time I inadvertently shut down one of Britain’s nuclear power stations There is a scram joke in there somewhere ;)

loup-vaillant 2y ago

> You probably won’t get to choose what to work on, and you may not agree with all the decisions of the powers that be. In fact, it’s practically certain you won’t. After all, you know more about the subject matter than they do. Wait a minute if the people most suited to make a decision are overridden by people less competent than them (they have to be most of the time, given the different focus of their career), that's kind of a problem, isn't it? Is there any way to avoid such structural failures?

rakejake 2y ago
Less competent in what? The people with decision-making power are supposed to be good at some combination of product innovation, product management, sales, marketing and accounting. ICs are only suited to making some decisions in the first two, and have next to zero expertise in the others.
- loup-vaillant 2y ago
  I'm afraid "supposed to" is the operating word here. In practice, the people who make the calls more often does not do so because they inherited a crap load of money, not because their own genius or hard work raised them to the top.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

dfedbeef 2y ago

The mistake I see people make it _not_ ending their career out of narcissism, pride, ego, etc. I am not a religious person but it is good to remember you will die. You should have some better stuff to put on your tombstone than your job title. People aren't going to care who you were in 100 years and people aren't going to remember you in 1000 years. Your tombstone will crumble in the dirt. Spend time with people you love, spend time with your family and friends. Find meaning without economic strings attached.

dfedbeef 2y ago
Oh and by the way: you might die sooner than you think. It happens all the time. Are you spending time the way you want?
joshuamcginnis 2y ago
I highly recommend folks read Ecclesiastes, which opens with "Everything Is Meaningless". It's a philosophical book on what matters in life (and what doesn't). What do people gain from all their labors at which they toil under the sun? Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever. No one remembers the former generations, and even those yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow them.

negus 2y ago

> Lao Tzu teaches: the best fighter is never angry. More important than the blow is knowing when to strike Seems like a fake citation https://www.taoistic.com/fake-laotzu-quotes/fake-laotzu-quote-The_best_fighter_is_never_angry.htm https://www.taoistic.com/fake-laotzu-quotes/fake-laotzu-quot...

itronitron 2y ago
Yeah, the Lao Tzu I know advises people to be simple, like uncarved blocks of wood.
apocadam 2y ago
The person (Denpok) who quotes it is a charlatan posing as a guru, which makes the fake citation fitting.

urbandw311er 2y ago

What a useful, well written article. Thanks for sharing.

ghm2180 2y ago

Does someone know how to find good IC coaches that can mentor a mid-level(ish) engineer 8+ YoE? I have issues with rejection and I am working on them. I am a generalist, and I have been struggling with how to find opportunities myself by connecting to people 1:1 and discussing first hand the nature of the problem and whether I can help them with it. I imagine a coach help me typically with forming a coherent career statement and pointers on how to have these conversation.

ghm2180 2y ago
I want to be able to work as a generalist who can learn most coding stacks and a wide range of experience in backend(ranking/recommendation) systems, data engineering and some early career full stack experience.
GMoromisato 2y ago
I'm always happy to talk through career and engineering issues. Hit me up, if you're interested: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neurohack/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/neurohack/

cushychicken 2y ago

I like this authors frame of reference. Independence is definitely my goal. I want to get to a point where I can start an independent EE consultancy, then slowly get more and more selective about my clientele, until I choose to stop working.

mixmastamyk 2y ago

One thing I didn't anticipate when younger is the extent that other people will prevent your advancement. Whether by being in the way, *isms - a.k.a. refusing to hire you for positions you'd be great at, or very common today... the majority of companies that no longer train or encourage career development. Because you might leave? Advancement seems to be lot of outmaneuvering these folks.

cheema33 2y ago
> very common today... the majority of companies that no longer train or encourage career development. I don't get this. What is stopping anyone from doing that themselves? Why does someone else have to do it?
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  It's investing in your workforce and demonstrates a level of respect and supports loyalty. No, the lack never stopped me from learning. Professional experience however is valued more highly than... yes I fired up ABC at home. Or I led a team doing XYZ and now can do that for my employer.

assanineass 2y ago

Good read

mrbombastic 2y ago

“Managing people is hard; much harder than programming. Computers just do what you tell them, whether that’s right or wrong (usually wrong). Anyone can get good at programming, if they’re willing to put in enough time and effort. I’m not sure anyone can get good at managing, and most don’t. Most managers are terrible. That’s quite a sweeping statement, I know. (Prove me wrong, managers, prove me wrong.) But, really, would a car mechanic last long in the job if they couldn’t fit a tyre, or change a spark plug? Would a doctor succeed if they regularly amputated the wrong leg? We would hope not. But many managers are just as incompetent, in their own field, and yet they seem to get away with it.” The fact that most managers are terrible doesn’t really prove managing is hard. in fact you could make a case it proves the opposite, the fact that most managers are terrible shows that management is easy, at least if we are talking about what it takes to keep your job. FWIW I would agree with the point that being a good manager is hard but I don’t think this argument holds water.

jotaen 2y ago

2022; previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30428602 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30428602

hintymad 2y ago

Great article and thought provoking. > and unlike your colleagues in management, you won’t spend all day in meetings. The author will be surprised. In a bureaucratic company like Google, even an E6 can spend all their time having meetings and writing docs, to the point that they even get rusty at drawing boxes. > If you want to reach this level, you’ll need to become a master of your chosen craft One thing that worries me is that mastery also means specialization, and specialization is the most risky when there's a paradigm shift. My cope is to be specialized in a category. For instance, be a specialist in distributed systems instead of being a master of building Spring-boot services. That said, even that type of specialization is not immune to paradigm shift. Case in point, scaling out a service is really not that hard these days compared to 10 years ago.

jimmaswell 2y ago

> If you love what you’re doing now and don’t ever want to change jobs, great: you’ve reached the end of your career Guess I'm there. I don't know how common my mindset is around here, but I have a relatively low stress, unexciting remote job in web dev. It's not glamorous or particularly interesting, but it pays well and offers the flexibility for me to travel a lot/spend time with loved ones and have extra mental energy for my hobbies. Well worth the tradeoff for me personally - I have no particular impetus to climb the corporate ladder when I already make six figures in a low cost of living area.

drillsteps5 2y ago

Like the article, not fan of the title. I understand it's supposed to be catchy, but it is just not accurate. Planning for the next phase of your career would be better. Planning of the end of the career is a very valid topic, but it's a different one (planning for retirement).