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I guess I don’t understand the advantage of EVs really. Isn’t a plug in hybrid the best option? You can do everyday short trips on battery but also have the gas

I guess I don’t understand the advantage of EVs really. Isn’t a plug in hybrid the best option? You can do everyday short trips on battery but also have the gas engine for longer trips. Sure it is more complicated but Toyota has shown that you can make this super reliable.

bryanlarsen 2y ago
You're never going to a hybrid under $25,000. Pretty much everywhere but the US has the option of getting an electric car for under $25,000 from BYD or Renault. I've done over 20,000 km in road trips in an EV. You charge while you're eating or toileting or sleeping, it doesn't affect my trips.
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  I agree, the range has rarely been a problem for me. The battery runs out of juice about the time my butt needs a break, my bladder needs emptying, and my stomach needs filling. By the time I'm done with lunch, I'm good for another 250-300 miles, and I'm going to stop for the night at that point anyway. People doing >500 miles per day on a roadtrip are the outliers. Way, way outliers.
  - M4rkJW 2y ago
    I drive home from Virginia to Florida in a single day, typically with one stop at the Florence, SC Buc-ee's. That's nearly 600 miles (in a gas RAV4). I do this a couple times a year and it takes about 9 hours, less if there's no cops.
- renewedrebecca 2y ago
  Out of curiosity, how long are those trips though? In the US and probably Canada, there's an expectation that spending 8 hours in one day going somewhere is easily doable. (as in 800 km in 8 hours with a few 10-30 minute breaks for gasoline or food). It doesn't seem like that's a particularly normal thing for a European to do.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    4 of the trips were 3000km each. Longer trips are actually easier in an EV because you have no expectation of being able to power through without stopping for breaks. And it adds the option of charging overnight at a hotel. It's the medium distance trips that are harder in an EV. A 500-800km trip is something people without kids expect to be able to do without any breaks.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      Now you have to find a hotel with (working) overnight charging. These are rare in the USA epecially outside of major cities.
      - bryanlarsen 2y ago
        They are rare, but easy to filter for in the standard hotel apps. For most of my trips I was also able to use block heater plugs, which are ubiquitous in Western Canada. 120V isn't enough to get a full charge overnight, but 8-10 hours of charging at 120V is still adds a nice boost.
- WorldMaker 2y ago
  > Pretty much everywhere but the US has the option of getting an electric car for under $25,000 from BYD or Renault. The US is afraid of competition in the automotive industry and the current import tariffs and taxes on cars are a bit of an elephant in the room here, too.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    BYD just has to do the same thing Toyota did, build a plant in Mexico and use NAFTA to sell well made cars for dirt cheap. I'm not yet convinced that BYD cars ARE well made yet though. When Hyundai had a similar amount of mistrust from American consumers, they improved their standing by offering a very compelling warranty, 100k miles or 10 years. The problem is I don't know if I can trust BYD the COMPANY that much.
  - noworriesnate 2y ago
    We have three choices: 1) compete by enslaving our workers and treating them horribly like they do in China, 2) refuse to compete by simply outsourcing the slavery to China, or 3) compete by treat our workers well, use tariffs and tacitly admit that Trump has a good idea. Option 2 seems like the only option that is afraid of competition.
    - com2kid 2y ago
      Labor is at most 10% of the overall cost of a car. Now explain the remaining 15k of price difference! Sure another 5 or 6k is subsidies from the Chinese government to the manufacturers, but there is still another $10k more that American cars cost VS Chinese cars.
jopsen 2y ago
For most people, their daily trips are well within the range of what an EV can do. And most people don't do long trips every week. Personally, I try to optimize my life to avoid spending a considerable part of it in a car. With charging at home EVs are just easy. For long trips charging every 2-3 hours isn't too bad (most humans benefit from a break anyways).
- Swizec 2y ago
  > And most people don't do long trips every week Most people don’t own multiple cars and wouldn’t rent a car for those rare use-cases when they already own a perfectly fine car. It may be overall cheaper to do that, but people don’t think that way. One or two annual holiday roadtrips to go see the family and oops that EV starts looking like an annoying option. Every friend I have who doesn’t own a house and bought an EV ended up returning it because of how annoying the charging was to deal with. It’s not that charging was _hard_, it’s that they had to think about it. edit: this may be an urbanite take. Even folks with cars don’t really use them to commute regularly. Semi-rare trips only.
  - mjamesaustin 2y ago
    I enjoy road trips far more since getting an EV. It's nice paying half as much or less in fuel costs. Tesla's charging network is excellent, and I'm glad it's opening to all EVs on the market. I used a third party charger once and the horrible user experience made sure I never will again.
  - lkbm 2y ago
    It's only 57%, so a good chunk who don't, but according to [0], the median US household does own two cars. I assume that a fairly large majority of married people have multiple cars (between the two of them), and only a very small minority of unmarried people do. [0] https://www.autoinsurance.com/research/car-ownership-statistics/ https://www.autoinsurance.com/research/car-ownership-statist...
  - jopsen 2y ago
    > Every friend I have who doesn’t own a house and bought an EV ended up returning it... Yeah, if you don't have a private parking spot, charging is a deal breaker. I wouldn't be surprised if apartment blocks with shared parking lots/garages eventually add charging. But yes, this requires more infrastructure. And won't be solved for street parking anytime soon.
jaco6 2y ago
An advantage of a pure EV over a hybrid is that you don’t have the maintenance liability of the combustion engine, cooling system, and transmission.
- jader201 2y ago
  And brakes. My brake pads rarely touch my rotors. Not only does this (and the things you pointed out) reduce the cost of maintenance, it saves on trips to get them done, and the headaches of the pressure most put on you to get things done you don’t need, just so they can make even more money off of you. Also, EVs on the highway (when hybrids are using the ICE) are much quieter, and have more torque. The only downsides I have noticed are: - Higher up front cost (though I don’t think hybrids are much cheaper) - Heavier = more frequent tire changes (again, not sure hybrids are much better) - Range for long road trips, resulting in having to pause for long charges, and having to plan your route in advance (definitely not a problem for hybrids)
  - warner25 2y ago
    > And brakes. My brake pads rarely touch my rotors. I still have the original brake pads on my 2008 Prius with 150k miles. (And yes, I have them measured periodically to see if they're still good.) This is typical.
    - mrguyorama 2y ago
      What usually kills that age of Toyota brakes is not use, but rust. I've had all 4 corners rust to death on my 2004 vintage Toyota. They use terrible metal that just cannot resist rust at all.
  - wenc 2y ago
    Is that right? With torque blending, regen braking is blended with friction braking at low speeds (when regen braking is ineffective). Friction braking is always needed to make a full stop.
    - 2y ago
p1necone 2y ago
The biggest downside of a plugin hybrid is the complexity and therefore higher service costs, likely shorter lifetime etc. You have all the maintenance requirements of a regular ICE vehicle and an electric motor + battery on top of that. Also the full electric range is likely much lower than an electric only vehicle so running costs would be higher. Some EVs have full charge range that's not much less than a full tank of gas on an ICE at this point - the range is really a non issue for a lot of people. I drive an EV with a comparably low range (~130 miles) and I can still count on one hand the number of times I've needed to drive further than that in one trip - on those occasions other than my lunch/dinner stop being limited to places with a charging station nothing really changed compared to when I drove an ICE. The rest of the time I get to plug it in in my garage overnight instead of having to stop at petrol stations, which is a nice albeit minor convenience increase.
- KptMarchewa 2y ago
  In theory, yes - however, after all this time, 00s Priuses are typically lowest maintanence (or, overall TCO) cars.
Enginerrrd 2y ago
I'm 100% with you. Dodge has the 2025 ramcharger which has amazing specs! 690 mile range, 14,000lb towing capacity, 663 hp, etc. etc. I've got reservations about dodge, and reservations about the first year of the model from any manufactuerer. Otherwise, I'd gladly shell out 70k+ and my left nut to get one. I really wish more manufacturers would go this direction. I've got no interest in 100% EV, because I do things with my truck that simply are not feasible with any EV model, mostly due to range. The problem is, I do just enough truck stuff with really tough requirements that I don't want a non-truck without serious range. Yet, I still go to work in an office a few days a week and would love to use plug-in charge to do so.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Those are amazing specs. I want one that isn't luxury. Give me cloth bench seats, no infotainment... I'm happy with my basic 1999 F350 but it is showing rust (I expect to lose the box in a couple years) and so I need to be thinking about what next.
- Velofellow 2y ago
  not a PHEV, but I've been incredibly happy with the 2023 F-150 Powerboost. It's a Mild hybrid system, with great towing capacity, power & torque. Does not sound quite as "stout" as the Dodge, but like you I have my reservations about the brand. I've been Using it as a honest work truck in the civil engineering / construction world, and have been able to get 600 miles from a tank without trying too hard. I've seen plenty of short (~20 mile) trips nearing 30mpg, which is above stated estimates. 23-25mpg for mixed use driving off road, on road, idling, etc. I'm on jobsites a lot, and just even having working AC / full host of accessories with the ICE engine powered down, acting as a generator when needed, is a big quality of life upgrade.
  - Enginerrrd 2y ago
    Hey! It's a fellow Civil Engineer on HN!
    - Velofellow 2y ago
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
A real EV has much better performance than a plugin hybrid, which is more like the worst of both worlds when it comes to driving experience. If you think only about economy, a PHEV can make sense, but it is an overly complicated solution which is bound to have extra maintenance problems.
- schmidtleonard 2y ago
  Yes, and EREVs are obviously superior as a hybrid architecture yet most of the ink gets spilled pushing PHEVs, so it's pretty clear that people with PHEVs to sell are pushing the narrative.
  - amluto 2y ago
    I’m suspicious that regulators have made the EREV category worse than it could otherwise be: See the CARB Regulation section here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_extender https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_extender Why not instead set a carbon price and otherwise let the market and owners decide what mix of gasoline and grid electricity to use?
- kube-system 2y ago
  HEVs and PHEVs are usually no more complicated or burdensome to maintain than an ICE car, as their architecture often eliminates or mitigates some problematic ICE parts. Furthermore, very few new car buyers continue to own a car towards the tail-end slope of the product-failure bathtub curve. The advantage to (P)HEVs over BEVs is not driving performance, but versatility. But yeah, don't buy a Prius Prime for the track. But it'll work great for going to the grocery store for a very wide variety of lifestyles and living situations.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    A lot of people buying BEVs aren’t doing it for economy or environment, but for the driving experience. It’s a splurge for sure, but it makes driving more fun.
rootusrootus 2y ago
I see PHEVs as the worst of both worlds. Electric but short range, hybrid but lower efficiency. All of the complexities and costs of both drivetrains added together.
- matthewdgreen 2y ago
  And the high maintenance costs. Just took a hybrid SUV in for maintenance after my maintenance plan expired, got a depressingly high price quote for extended maintenance. Adds literally thousands of dollars to the price.
  - vundercind 2y ago
    I don't know what a "quote for extended maintenance" is. Like a subscription/insurance sort of thing? I've always just taken cars in around the time they're supposed to have things looked at based on maintenance tables, or when something goes wrong.
    - matthewdgreen 2y ago
      Extended maintenance plans cover oil changes and normal scheduled service. They're separate from warranties and only cover some wear parts. Most manufacturers sell one. See: https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/prepaid-maintenance-plans.html https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/prepaid-maintenance-plans... They're sometimes overpriced (due to dealer upsell) and sometimes a good way to estimate what the manufacturer estimates that routine maintenance will cost, at least using their in-house service center. They can run $1000 to several thousand dollars for luxury cars.
smileysteve 2y ago
Generally, no, a plug in hybrid is not the best option. Where > 95% of trips are 2x30 mile trips (daily commuting); the vehicle is accelerating and decelerating the extra weight for no benefit. You have the increased battery wear, where you exceed the optimal charging range 15-80% on LiPo. Then the additional ICE factors such as brake wear, oil changes, fuel rot (if you always charge and buy gas once a quarter), coolant changes, an an exhaust system increase maintenance necessities significantly (where a brushless motor has no need for oil or open coolant). Hybrids can also promote "green washing" ~ it's never charged and driven on short commute trips, the system is always charging the electric, using more gas than if it were only gas, with lower performance, a shorter battery life, and more components to fail. The best option, is somewhere between renting an hybridICE for less than once a quarter > 200 mile one way, road trips; and, if your household driving is out of norms, ie > 200 miles road trips every week, having a car in the household fleet that is hybrid/ice.

bryanlarsen 2y ago

You're never going to a hybrid under $25,000. Pretty much everywhere but the US has the option of getting an electric car for under $25,000 from BYD or Renault. I've done over 20,000 km in road trips in an EV. You charge while you're eating or toileting or sleeping, it doesn't affect my trips.

rootusrootus 2y ago
I agree, the range has rarely been a problem for me. The battery runs out of juice about the time my butt needs a break, my bladder needs emptying, and my stomach needs filling. By the time I'm done with lunch, I'm good for another 250-300 miles, and I'm going to stop for the night at that point anyway. People doing >500 miles per day on a roadtrip are the outliers. Way, way outliers.
- M4rkJW 2y ago
  I drive home from Virginia to Florida in a single day, typically with one stop at the Florence, SC Buc-ee's. That's nearly 600 miles (in a gas RAV4). I do this a couple times a year and it takes about 9 hours, less if there's no cops.
renewedrebecca 2y ago
Out of curiosity, how long are those trips though? In the US and probably Canada, there's an expectation that spending 8 hours in one day going somewhere is easily doable. (as in 800 km in 8 hours with a few 10-30 minute breaks for gasoline or food). It doesn't seem like that's a particularly normal thing for a European to do.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  4 of the trips were 3000km each. Longer trips are actually easier in an EV because you have no expectation of being able to power through without stopping for breaks. And it adds the option of charging overnight at a hotel. It's the medium distance trips that are harder in an EV. A 500-800km trip is something people without kids expect to be able to do without any breaks.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    Now you have to find a hotel with (working) overnight charging. These are rare in the USA epecially outside of major cities.
    - bryanlarsen 2y ago
      They are rare, but easy to filter for in the standard hotel apps. For most of my trips I was also able to use block heater plugs, which are ubiquitous in Western Canada. 120V isn't enough to get a full charge overnight, but 8-10 hours of charging at 120V is still adds a nice boost.
WorldMaker 2y ago
> Pretty much everywhere but the US has the option of getting an electric car for under $25,000 from BYD or Renault. The US is afraid of competition in the automotive industry and the current import tariffs and taxes on cars are a bit of an elephant in the room here, too.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  BYD just has to do the same thing Toyota did, build a plant in Mexico and use NAFTA to sell well made cars for dirt cheap. I'm not yet convinced that BYD cars ARE well made yet though. When Hyundai had a similar amount of mistrust from American consumers, they improved their standing by offering a very compelling warranty, 100k miles or 10 years. The problem is I don't know if I can trust BYD the COMPANY that much.
- noworriesnate 2y ago
  We have three choices: 1) compete by enslaving our workers and treating them horribly like they do in China, 2) refuse to compete by simply outsourcing the slavery to China, or 3) compete by treat our workers well, use tariffs and tacitly admit that Trump has a good idea. Option 2 seems like the only option that is afraid of competition.
  - com2kid 2y ago
    Labor is at most 10% of the overall cost of a car. Now explain the remaining 15k of price difference! Sure another 5 or 6k is subsidies from the Chinese government to the manufacturers, but there is still another $10k more that American cars cost VS Chinese cars.

jopsen 2y ago

For most people, their daily trips are well within the range of what an EV can do. And most people don't do long trips every week. Personally, I try to optimize my life to avoid spending a considerable part of it in a car. With charging at home EVs are just easy. For long trips charging every 2-3 hours isn't too bad (most humans benefit from a break anyways).

Swizec 2y ago
> And most people don't do long trips every week Most people don’t own multiple cars and wouldn’t rent a car for those rare use-cases when they already own a perfectly fine car. It may be overall cheaper to do that, but people don’t think that way. One or two annual holiday roadtrips to go see the family and oops that EV starts looking like an annoying option. Every friend I have who doesn’t own a house and bought an EV ended up returning it because of how annoying the charging was to deal with. It’s not that charging was _hard_, it’s that they had to think about it. edit: this may be an urbanite take. Even folks with cars don’t really use them to commute regularly. Semi-rare trips only.
- mjamesaustin 2y ago
  I enjoy road trips far more since getting an EV. It's nice paying half as much or less in fuel costs. Tesla's charging network is excellent, and I'm glad it's opening to all EVs on the market. I used a third party charger once and the horrible user experience made sure I never will again.
- lkbm 2y ago
  It's only 57%, so a good chunk who don't, but according to [0], the median US household does own two cars. I assume that a fairly large majority of married people have multiple cars (between the two of them), and only a very small minority of unmarried people do. [0] https://www.autoinsurance.com/research/car-ownership-statistics/ https://www.autoinsurance.com/research/car-ownership-statist...
- jopsen 2y ago
  > Every friend I have who doesn’t own a house and bought an EV ended up returning it... Yeah, if you don't have a private parking spot, charging is a deal breaker. I wouldn't be surprised if apartment blocks with shared parking lots/garages eventually add charging. But yes, this requires more infrastructure. And won't be solved for street parking anytime soon.

jaco6 2y ago

An advantage of a pure EV over a hybrid is that you don’t have the maintenance liability of the combustion engine, cooling system, and transmission.

jader201 2y ago
And brakes. My brake pads rarely touch my rotors. Not only does this (and the things you pointed out) reduce the cost of maintenance, it saves on trips to get them done, and the headaches of the pressure most put on you to get things done you don’t need, just so they can make even more money off of you. Also, EVs on the highway (when hybrids are using the ICE) are much quieter, and have more torque. The only downsides I have noticed are: - Higher up front cost (though I don’t think hybrids are much cheaper) - Heavier = more frequent tire changes (again, not sure hybrids are much better) - Range for long road trips, resulting in having to pause for long charges, and having to plan your route in advance (definitely not a problem for hybrids)
- warner25 2y ago
  > And brakes. My brake pads rarely touch my rotors. I still have the original brake pads on my 2008 Prius with 150k miles. (And yes, I have them measured periodically to see if they're still good.) This is typical.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    What usually kills that age of Toyota brakes is not use, but rust. I've had all 4 corners rust to death on my 2004 vintage Toyota. They use terrible metal that just cannot resist rust at all.
- wenc 2y ago
  Is that right? With torque blending, regen braking is blended with friction braking at low speeds (when regen braking is ineffective). Friction braking is always needed to make a full stop.
  - 2y ago

p1necone 2y ago

The biggest downside of a plugin hybrid is the complexity and therefore higher service costs, likely shorter lifetime etc. You have all the maintenance requirements of a regular ICE vehicle and an electric motor + battery on top of that. Also the full electric range is likely much lower than an electric only vehicle so running costs would be higher. Some EVs have full charge range that's not much less than a full tank of gas on an ICE at this point - the range is really a non issue for a lot of people. I drive an EV with a comparably low range (~130 miles) and I can still count on one hand the number of times I've needed to drive further than that in one trip - on those occasions other than my lunch/dinner stop being limited to places with a charging station nothing really changed compared to when I drove an ICE. The rest of the time I get to plug it in in my garage overnight instead of having to stop at petrol stations, which is a nice albeit minor convenience increase.

KptMarchewa 2y ago
In theory, yes - however, after all this time, 00s Priuses are typically lowest maintanence (or, overall TCO) cars.

Enginerrrd 2y ago

I'm 100% with you. Dodge has the 2025 ramcharger which has amazing specs! 690 mile range, 14,000lb towing capacity, 663 hp, etc. etc. I've got reservations about dodge, and reservations about the first year of the model from any manufactuerer. Otherwise, I'd gladly shell out 70k+ and my left nut to get one. I really wish more manufacturers would go this direction. I've got no interest in 100% EV, because I do things with my truck that simply are not feasible with any EV model, mostly due to range. The problem is, I do just enough truck stuff with really tough requirements that I don't want a non-truck without serious range. Yet, I still go to work in an office a few days a week and would love to use plug-in charge to do so.

bluGill 2y ago
Those are amazing specs. I want one that isn't luxury. Give me cloth bench seats, no infotainment... I'm happy with my basic 1999 F350 but it is showing rust (I expect to lose the box in a couple years) and so I need to be thinking about what next.
Velofellow 2y ago
not a PHEV, but I've been incredibly happy with the 2023 F-150 Powerboost. It's a Mild hybrid system, with great towing capacity, power & torque. Does not sound quite as "stout" as the Dodge, but like you I have my reservations about the brand. I've been Using it as a honest work truck in the civil engineering / construction world, and have been able to get 600 miles from a tank without trying too hard. I've seen plenty of short (~20 mile) trips nearing 30mpg, which is above stated estimates. 23-25mpg for mixed use driving off road, on road, idling, etc. I'm on jobsites a lot, and just even having working AC / full host of accessories with the ICE engine powered down, acting as a generator when needed, is a big quality of life upgrade.
- Enginerrrd 2y ago
  Hey! It's a fellow Civil Engineer on HN!
  - Velofellow 2y ago

seanmcdirmid 2y ago

A real EV has much better performance than a plugin hybrid, which is more like the worst of both worlds when it comes to driving experience. If you think only about economy, a PHEV can make sense, but it is an overly complicated solution which is bound to have extra maintenance problems.

schmidtleonard 2y ago
Yes, and EREVs are obviously superior as a hybrid architecture yet most of the ink gets spilled pushing PHEVs, so it's pretty clear that people with PHEVs to sell are pushing the narrative.
- amluto 2y ago
  I’m suspicious that regulators have made the EREV category worse than it could otherwise be: See the CARB Regulation section here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_extender https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_extender Why not instead set a carbon price and otherwise let the market and owners decide what mix of gasoline and grid electricity to use?
kube-system 2y ago
HEVs and PHEVs are usually no more complicated or burdensome to maintain than an ICE car, as their architecture often eliminates or mitigates some problematic ICE parts. Furthermore, very few new car buyers continue to own a car towards the tail-end slope of the product-failure bathtub curve. The advantage to (P)HEVs over BEVs is not driving performance, but versatility. But yeah, don't buy a Prius Prime for the track. But it'll work great for going to the grocery store for a very wide variety of lifestyles and living situations.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  A lot of people buying BEVs aren’t doing it for economy or environment, but for the driving experience. It’s a splurge for sure, but it makes driving more fun.

rootusrootus 2y ago

I see PHEVs as the worst of both worlds. Electric but short range, hybrid but lower efficiency. All of the complexities and costs of both drivetrains added together.

matthewdgreen 2y ago
And the high maintenance costs. Just took a hybrid SUV in for maintenance after my maintenance plan expired, got a depressingly high price quote for extended maintenance. Adds literally thousands of dollars to the price.
- vundercind 2y ago
  I don't know what a "quote for extended maintenance" is. Like a subscription/insurance sort of thing? I've always just taken cars in around the time they're supposed to have things looked at based on maintenance tables, or when something goes wrong.
  - matthewdgreen 2y ago
    Extended maintenance plans cover oil changes and normal scheduled service. They're separate from warranties and only cover some wear parts. Most manufacturers sell one. See: https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/prepaid-maintenance-plans.html https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/prepaid-maintenance-plans... They're sometimes overpriced (due to dealer upsell) and sometimes a good way to estimate what the manufacturer estimates that routine maintenance will cost, at least using their in-house service center. They can run $1000 to several thousand dollars for luxury cars.

smileysteve 2y ago

Generally, no, a plug in hybrid is not the best option. Where > 95% of trips are 2x30 mile trips (daily commuting); the vehicle is accelerating and decelerating the extra weight for no benefit. You have the increased battery wear, where you exceed the optimal charging range 15-80% on LiPo. Then the additional ICE factors such as brake wear, oil changes, fuel rot (if you always charge and buy gas once a quarter), coolant changes, an an exhaust system increase maintenance necessities significantly (where a brushless motor has no need for oil or open coolant). Hybrids can also promote "green washing" ~ it's never charged and driven on short commute trips, the system is always charging the electric, using more gas than if it were only gas, with lower performance, a shorter battery life, and more components to fail. The best option, is somewhere between renting an hybridICE for less than once a quarter > 200 mile one way, road trips; and, if your household driving is out of norms, ie > 200 miles road trips every week, having a car in the household fleet that is hybrid/ice.