11 ms·

I use Linux, but I think the cheapest M4 Mini offers an incredible value and efficiency per €. With education discount, it's around €650, including VAT. It's pr

by nextos 2y ago

I use Linux, but I think the cheapest M4 Mini offers an incredible value and efficiency per €. With education discount, it's around €650, including VAT. It's pretty hard to find such a silent and powerful machine for that little. Any comparable options? A good fanless build with a i3-14100T is more expensive and 40-50% slower on Geekbench. An i5 is a bit closer. Some 2024 Ryzen CPUs can match or exceed its multicore performance, but these are also more expensive and much less energy efficient. Pricewise, things start favoring PCs if you need more RAM, as Mac upgrades are costly. One can potentially use Nix on a Mac Mini to keep similar development environments to those used in Linux, but AFAIK some packages are not supported on ARM. Any experiences using Nix and nix-darwin as a daily driver?

vetinari 2y ago
NUC 14th gen with i3 is around 400 EUR with VAT, with no RAM or storage. For the other 250 EUR, surely you can get more RAM than 16 GB and more storage than 256 GB.
- nextos 2y ago
  I use a NUC as a daily driver. The problem with NUCs is that cooling is suboptimal, the fan is small and thus noisy. It can be fixed with a third-party case, but that's at least €60-100 more for a much slower machine. Plus, you may void the guarantee by transplanting the motherboard.
  - vetinari 2y ago
    I have i7 NUC13 mounted on a back of monitor and I can barely hear it. It's not that bad, previously (NUC7-era) it was much worse.
    - benoau 2y ago
      They're usually the same 30 - 50 watt processors used in x86 laptops, once we got past the "dual-core" ceiling they became extremely capable.
  - microtonal 2y ago
    It’s a shame that ASUS cancelled the NUC Extreme line. I know it’s quite a bit bigger than other NUCs. But the 13 Extreme had expandability, good cooling, and fast CPU options.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  > NUC 14th gen with i3 is around 400 EUR with VAT 4 cores instead of 10 cores, 69W TDP instead of 22W, UHD Graphics 730 versus Apple's 10 core GPU (0.5 TFLOPs vs about 4.3), 23% worse single core performance, 45% worse multicore, and much louder cooling. It's not a fair comparison.
  - vetinari 2y ago
    So get a stronger one. There will be always something that is better on one or another side. I have 13th gen i7, with 64 GB RAM and 2 TB ssd (and 2.5 GbE). It was 800 EUR + VAT, last year. How much would similar Mac Mini cost? Not a fair comparison either. Edit: 69W for the NUC is not TDP. It is 69W power brick that ships with the machine.
    - Symbiote 2y ago
      How noisy is it? I made a fanless NUC 7 (!) years ago with a special case, and it's perhaps due for replacement.
      - vetinari 2y ago
        Still can be heard, but it is not so annoying as it was. The fan noise is, how to describe it, softer? Comparing nuc7i7dnke to nuc13anki7.
    - attentive 2y ago
      what do you get in https://browserbench.org/Speedometer3.0 https://browserbench.org/Speedometer3.0 ? - m4 mini is 45 it seems.
      - vetinari 2y ago
        16.6 in Firefox, 19.8 in Chrome (Ubuntu 24.04, both browsers in flatpak).
      - vetinari 2y ago
        A few more datapoints, of course completely unscientific, because why not: | Firefox | Chrome | Safari | Edge =====================|=========|========|========|======= Intel 1360P (Ubuntu) | 16.6 | 19.8 | n/a | n/a Apple M1 (MacOS) | 24.6. | 26.3 | 28.5 | 28 AMD 2920X (Fedora) | 12.3 | 11.9 | n/a | n/a AMD 2920X (Windows) | 12.2 | n/a | n/a | 14.9
- MBCook 2y ago
  RAM is completely fair. Apple is certainly out of their mind on storage. But on a desktop it’s trivial to plug-in an external disc that you can buy at an absolutely reasonable price instead of the insane Apple one.
  - goosedragons 2y ago
    $200 bucks for 8GB RAM extra is not fair ($200 to go to 24GB, another $200 for 32GB). 64GB DDR5 kits can be had for less than $200. And while you can plug in storage, I think it does kind of ruin the appeal of having such a small device by having a bunch of spaghetti cables. And if the boot drive goes it's not easily replaceable and makes the machine a brick until it is.
talldayo 2y ago
> Any experiences using Nix and nix-darwin as a daily driver? Not positive ones, even on x86 Darwin. Homebrew feels a lot more stable, which is a decidedly concerning thing for the average Nix enjoyer.
- edude03 2y ago
  What kind of issues are you having?
  - talldayo 2y ago
    Well, missing packages for one. Nix prides itself on having one of the most compete package catalogs of any Linux package manager, and on Mac it leaves quite a bit to be desired. A lot of functionality has to be hooked in via home-manager scripts that are a lot less stable than NixOS modules, and since your system isn't built/upgraded by Nix you can't write overlays for a lot of Mac software. If you only need the versioned Flake management then it might be an okay option, but I found myself pretty frustrated by it in places that aren't an issue on Linux. I can't comfortably use it as a Homebrew replacement. Also, my Mac is 256gb which feels far too cramped for Nix. I'd really only recommend it if you're working with 512gb or more.
    - koiueo 2y ago
      Yeah, I eventually realized that nix-darwin is only good for managing the list of homebrew casks. home-manager works better than I'd expect. At least I don't have to spend time configuring vim, git and shell prompt. But overall, Nix on MacOS feels like a hack, behaves like a hack... because it's essentially a hack... I'm waiting for the first reports of Lenovo's t14s gen 6 with Snapdragon X Elite.
      - pxc 2y ago
        > Yeah, I eventually realized that nix-darwin is only good for managing the list of homebrew casks. If that's really all you use it for, and you already use Home Manager, the Homebrew module for Nix-Darwin works fine in Home Manager with some small tweaks. I use that with a custom, per-user Homebrew prefix to keep Homebrew out of the way except for the task of installing casks.
tredre3 2y ago
> With education discount I don't understand why so many people use the discounted price as reference. Surely very few of us on HN are still in college? So let's use the actual price when making comparisons.
- no_wizard 2y ago
  all you need is a .edu address If I recall correctly. you can buy them on alumni addresses. That said, a far chunk of HNs never completed college, like myself and lost access to any email accounts of this sort, which only further supports your argument directly, as the EDU discount isn't universally attainable
  - devmor 2y ago
    I’m going to have to check this out, I no longer have access directly to my old college email, but it still forwards to my gmail over a decade later!
  - nicce 2y ago
    Regardless, if people start to abuse this by getting discount while not actually being student or teacher, we can say goodbye to that discount and real students and teachers will suffer from it.
    - redundantly 2y ago
      I've seen this FUD repeated for a long time. Hasn't happened yet. Probably the worst that will happen is they'll start requiring some type of verification again.
    - addicted 2y ago
      They almost certainly won’t get rid of it because people are abusing it. If they do it’s because they don’t want to offer it. If they want to end the abuse they will simply toughen the verification procedure.
      - 2y ago
denkmoon 2y ago
Just put Asahi on there, or any linux you like. I'm sure the support will be there soon if it's not already.
- stirlo 2y ago
  Asahi Linux doesn’t currently support M4 but it’s planned for next year.
- seabrookmx 2y ago
  > or any Linux you like That's not a thing. Apple silicon doesn't use EFI so you need a completely custom ROM to satisfy the boot process, hence Asahi. And Asahi doesn't support M4 and likely won't for a while. ARM64 support for GUI apps (via flatpak in the Fedora Asahi Remix) is also pretty poor, though your standard fair of CLI apps are present.
  - denkmoon 2y ago
    It is a thing. Sure, it's not easy. You can't just download the Debian build for M1, but it can be built. M4 support will come.
steeleduncan 2y ago
Nix works well on mac, very similar to Nix/Linux for the most part. There are some missing packages, but the common ones tend to be fine. Its worth using the Determinate Systems installer to avoid reinstalling Nix on every macOS update though. Nix-darwin is good, and I use it, but it is nowhere close to NixOS. I think there are some options I've set through it that macOS keeps overriding, so the declarative configuration drifts from the real one eventually I think the only real issue with Nix on macOS is that Nix can eat through storage quite quickly, and storage upgrades are pretty expensive on Macs. This might push the balance back to an fanless ryzen build
- nicce 2y ago
  > I think the only real issue with Nix on macOS is that Nix can eat through storage quite quickly, and storage upgrades are pretty expensive on Macs. This might push the balance back to an fanless ryzen build Only if you want to be able to roll back multiple versions. Otherwise, I think it is fine.
  - lloeki 2y ago
    Indeed I've been liberally using nix-collect-garbage -d after every darwin-rebuild switch without issues for years.
- lloeki 2y ago
  > Its worth using the Determinate Systems installer to avoid reinstalling Nix on every macOS update though. I've had Nix installed from the traditional installer since the very first M1 and never had to reinstall nixpkgs across OS updates.
  - pxc 2y ago
    I guess some people have been addressing the clobbering of /etc/bashrc with full reinstalls?
GeekyBear 2y ago
Beelink has dropped the price for a roughly comparable unit with an Intel Core Ultra from 800 US Dollars to $700. https://www.bee-link.com/products/beelink-sei14-ultra5-125h https://www.bee-link.com/products/beelink-sei14-ultra5-125h
- nl 2y ago
  This is the best answer. The Beelink (and other mini-PC brands) offer comparable performance. The fact they offer lots of different configurations lets you choose your own trade-offs. Assuming you don't have an operating system preference, the base model Mac Mini is tough to beat outright, but as you upgrade it there are other options that get interesting.
  - zimpenfish 2y ago
    > The Beelink (and other mini-PC brands) offer comparable performance. [0] has the new (base!) M4 at 3859 (single) and 14837 (multi) whilst [1] has the Ultra 5 125H 4500 at ~2200 (single) and ~11500 (multi). "comparable" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in your sentence. [0] https://arstechnica.com/apple/2024/11/review-the-fastest-of-the-m4-macbook-pros-might-be-the-least-interesting-one/ https://arstechnica.com/apple/2024/11/review-the-fastest-of-... [1] https://browser.geekbench.com/search?q=Ultra+5+125H https://browser.geekbench.com/search?q=Ultra+5+125H
    - nl 2y ago
      > new (base!) M4 at 3859 (single) and 14837 (multi) I think that's the M4 in the base iMac (8 core), which is different (and less powerful!) than the M4 in the base Mac Mini (10 core). The Beelink is 32Gb RAM + 1TB storage though. Like I said: the base Mac Mini is tough to beat!
    - GeekyBear 2y ago
      A performance test between a Beelink flagship mini PC that was around $1000 and the Mac Mini was recently posted: > M4 Mac Mini vs Intel and AMD Flagships – It's Not Even Close https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Uuu046EE28 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Uuu046EE28 There are even cheaper mini PCs you can buy that offer great bang for the buck for home users who just want to do web browsing and run Office, but the performance isn't at the same level, even if you spend a lot more.
foobarian 2y ago
At this point maybe the main benefit of an x86 machine is it has a spot to plug in an Nvidia GPU :-)
- josephg 2y ago
  That and Linux support is better, if you need it.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    And you can pick up a used one for less than 1/10 the cost of a Mac Mini and it will be perfectly adequate for most people. I appreciate the technical achievement of the M4 Mac Mini for what it is, but an old x86 machine is more than adequate for my home or even work needs.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
edude03 2y ago
Daily nix user across Mac and Linux, though I use Mac for actual development. No problems here moving between the two with my dev env defined on GitHub [0] [0]: https://github.com/edude03/dotfiles https://github.com/edude03/dotfiles
- WuxiFingerHold 2y ago
  How do you handle the different keyboard layouts (cmd and ctrl on Mac, ctrl and superkey on Linux)? I'm using a Mac at work and Linux at home with a programmable keyboard but I didn't find a solution to "merge" cmd and ctrl on Mac, so I still need to use both on Mac (not a big drama, but slightly annoying).
  - drdo 2y ago
    My half solution is to use a keyboard that physically feels quite different to help my brain use a different mode. The Linux keyboard is a big heavy mechanical keyboard while on the macbook I just use the built-in keyboard. It's not a perfect solution and I still make mistakes, but it helps.
naoru 2y ago
A comparable option in my opinion would be Minisforum 790S7. They also have a separate mini-ITX motherboard from that one if you want to DIY. The CPU in it is faster in raw multi-thread performance, single-threaded it's a bit slower, but still quite impressive. The only problem I had with Minisforum is that they couldn't supply the exact hardware I ordered and their suggested solution was either to wait for 1+ month or get a sligtly different configuration. Two times out of two. Quality-wise they're pretty good though, no complaints there.
- nextos 2y ago
  That's a good suggestion. How are the cooling systems supplied with Minisforum in terms of noise and efficiency?
  - naoru 2y ago
    I can only speak of experience with their UN100D mini PC which I use as a home server in a fairly constrained closet. Not a hot machine by any means, far from that, but the cooling seems pretty decent even for this low power CPU. BD790i that I just received (didn't even install anywhere) has a rather substantial heatsink over the CPU similar to high wattage GPUs. The chip itself is rated at 55W TDP so it shouldn't be that much of a problem cooling it. The motherboard doesn't come with a fan and I'm definitely not going to spend extra on high-end ones at least just yet. I don't know anything about the thermals of 790S7's case though. It looks like they gave it at least some thought judging by the duct over the CPU, but how it actually performs I have no idea.
- gzer0 2y ago
  I can't find a Minisforum 790S7 for anywhere near the price of the base model mac mini. I am seeing $459.00 USD and that is "BAREBONE (NO OS/RAM/SSD)" [1]. I am comparing this to the M4 Mac Mini base model, that does indeed come with an OS, RAM, and an SSD[2] at $499 USD. [1] https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-mini-itx-pc-790s7-129i7?variant=45966680817909 https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-mini-itx-pc... [2] https://www.apple.com/us-edu/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/apple-m4-chip-with-10-core-cpu-and-10-core-gpu-16gb-memory-256gb https://www.apple.com/us-edu/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/apple-m4-...
rhplus 2y ago
The configuration being tested by OP is a $1499 model.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
koiueo 2y ago
After experiencing NixOS it's hard to settle for anything less. Nix is only good for running home-manager; nix-darwin is mostly a joke (I don't mean disrespect, I appreciate the work devs are doing, but limitations of the platform cripple the entire experience). FWIW, Mitchell Hashimoto runs NixOS VM on his Mac for development. And that's the option I'm gonna implement once I get my MBP from repairs.
cascades42 2y ago
While I suspect it is silent for most tasks, the M4 mini isn’t fanless. For my music studio I’ve enjoyed the M1 mini since it is totally silent and am eager to read some noise tests on the new M4 mini.
rowanG077 2y ago
I can at least attest to linux nix on arm working pretty well as I use NixOS asahi linux. Unfortunately M4 support is not there yet.
- msgilligan 2y ago
  Asahi M4 support and 3rd-party SSD upgrades[1] will result in me buying an M4 Mini. Glad to hear that Nix works well on Asahi! [1] https://wccftech.com/m4-mac-mini-ssd-already-modded-to-2tb-storage/ https://wccftech.com/m4-mac-mini-ssd-already-modded-to-2tb-s...
throawayonthe 2y ago
well asahi is going to bring M4 support eventually and there is https://github.com/tpwrules/nixos-apple-silicon https://github.com/tpwrules/nixos-apple-silicon also you could just Containerize All The Things on macos idk
- cchance 2y ago
  Ya like i get the love for linux, but seriously give MacOSX a try for a while, its pretty damn good lol
  - kaladin-jasnah 2y ago
    macOS simply doesn't work if I want to run this as a home server, which is my primary use case for an Apple silicon Mac. Most server applications are first class citizens on Linux, like Docker and Kubernetes and caddy/nginx (I know ports exist but there's more documentation and experience on Linux). Furthermore, systemd is a lot more documented than launchd and generally speaking it's easier to do things like upgrading headless, setting up NFS, and the like. I wish Apple offered these machines with official Linux support, but that's antithetical to their philosophy.
  - darthrupert 2y ago
    For most developer things it's slightly worse, so to have to pay extra for it is a bit silly.
- fulafel 2y ago
  There's no container support on macOS unfortunately, except for the frontends for linux virtual machines. (Well they do have a thing called containers, but it's a desktop app security/sandboxing feature that does something conceptually different)
  - gorbypark 2y ago
    There's an extremely experimental/feature limited 3rd party implementation of macOS native containers. It requires disabling all sorts of security features, though.
VancouverMan 2y ago
> Pricewise, things start favoring PCs if you need more RAM, as Mac upgrades are costly. That's the position I'm in, along with some other people I've talked to recently, too. For our situations, the M4 would likely offer more than enough processing power, and the efficiency and physical size are attractive, but a maximum of 32 GB of RAM definitely isn't sufficient. The M4 Pro's 64 GB of RAM is somewhat better, but the cost of those upgrades are very hard to justify. I'd also prefer to use the system for at least 5 years, and likely up to 10 years, if not longer. Even if 64 GB is tolerable now, I can easily see it becoming insufficient for my needs before then. The lack of reasonably-priced internal storage, while easier to work around than the lack of sufficient and reasonably-priced RAM, doesn't help matters, too. Even if future Studio models, for example, might allow for a more ideal amount of RAM, I have to expect that unjustifiable upgrade costs will likely still be an issue, and then there's the wait on top of that. I can easily see myself and the others I've talked to settling for PCs, rather than making unjustifiably-expensive Mac purchases.
- kamranjon 2y ago
  For what it's worth, the apple silicon machines are much more efficient on RAM than most - a 16gb m1 absolutely mops the floor with the 32gb of ram I have in my thinkpad with an i7. It's not really even close.
  - layoric 2y ago
    Not sure what you mean by 'efficient', they are faster for sure (amazing memory bandwidth thanks to on chip memory), but to my knowledge they would be the same for amount of data stored. So that same think pad will likely be faster at tasks that need 24GB for example, highly depend on the use case as always.
    - wtallis 2y ago
      Memory requirements for general-purpose desktop usage usually don't come down to a single task with a large working set that needs to fit in RAM in its entirety. It's more often a matter of the aggregate memory usage of many tasks, which means that in practice there's a wide gray area where the OS can make a difference, depending on the effectiveness of its memory compression, swap, signalling memory pressure to applications, suspending background tasks or simply having fewer of them in the first place.
MBCook 2y ago
There was a comparison mentioned on last week’s episode of the Accidental Tech Podcast, I don’t remember if it was pointed out to them or they noticed it themselves. Base Mac mini: $599, 16/256 GB Double storage and ram: $600 upgrade. Price of 32/512 config: $1199 Two 16/256 machines: $1198. The ram is (Apple) reasonable at $200, but $400 for the storage doubling is insane.
- matt-p 2y ago
  I think you have it the wrong way round? Ram is 400 (200/8GB) storage is 200
  - MBCook 2y ago
    Oh do I? Well somehow that seems more insane to me.
- ewzimm 2y ago
  Also, the 256 uses 2x128 drives while the 512 uses a single drive, so you even get slightly slower storage with the upgrade. The base model is a great deal.
  - mkl 2y ago
    Do you have a source on that? It's not what I've read elsewhere, but I'm having trouble finding anything specific.
    - ewzimm 2y ago
      I had to look it up, and I had gotten that slightly wrong. The 256 did switch to 2x128 NAND while the previous model used 1x256, but the 512 is also multiple. https://www.macrumors.com/2024/11/08/m4-mac-mini-modular-storage/ https://www.macrumors.com/2024/11/08/m4-mac-mini-modular-sto...
  - einr 2y ago
    This is true for the Mac Studio but not for the M4 Mac Mini -- they all have a single storage slot and the only difference between the 256 and 512 models is the model of the NAND chips.
arianvanp 2y ago
Nix support on Darwin is really good in my experience. Though it does happen that some packages are not supported. Next to that I run a NixOS VM on https://getutm.app/ https://getutm.app/ using Virtualization Framework. Performance is great. You're one setting away `virtualisation.rosetta.enable = true;` to also use that VM for x86_64 packages and builds. I have a WIP PR for Rosetta AOT caching on NixOS as well: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/330829 https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/330829
- fulafel 2y ago
  How is the graphics/desktop performance in VMs, do you get accelerated graphics with NixOS?
ar_lan 2y ago
I use nix-darwin on an M2 as a daily driver. It works great! A few quirks you need to go with Brew (mostly graphical applications), but my setup is almost identical between my NixOS and my nix-darwin setups other than that (and some OS toggles).
layoric 2y ago
Maybe for a little server or something, but with the hard to upgrade 256GB storage.. I don't get the appeal. Also 16GB of memory is extremely limited these days. Again, perfect for a little server, but not for a daily driver.
- mh8h 2y ago
  It's a desktop computer. What's keeping you from using an external SSD?
  - layoric 2y ago
    For large media, sure, but I really don't to pay a premium to then need to manage where my everyday apps are installed cause I only have 256GB of storage I can't upgrade.
- luxuryballs 2y ago
  For someone who wants to develop and build apple ecosystem apps or cross-platform an existing game this is a steal.
- mahkeiro 2y ago
  The storage is easily upgradable on the new Mac mini as it’s using a standard M2 SSD (a short version) https://youtu.be/cJPXLE9uPr8 https://youtu.be/cJPXLE9uPr8
  - omnimus 2y ago
    The video is desoldering chips, getting new compatible ones and soldering them back (exactly like Mac Studio). I wouldnt call that easy. Most people would call that the exact opposite.
  - bloqs 2y ago
    Except you have to use proprietary SSDs otherwise soldering is involved. 1/10
johndoe0815 2y ago
In Germany you can get the cheapest (base version, 16GB RAM/256GB SSD) M4 Mini for 579€ via Unidays edu discount (also including VAT). I picked mine up from the post office yesterday, it's 50% faster in Geekbench single/multi-core CPU benchmarks than my M1 Pro Macbook Pro and about as fast in GPU performance. Impressive.
ksec 2y ago
>With education discount, it's around €650, It is €579 including VAT. The Educational discount in US is only $499. €650 sounds wrong. Where in EU is that.
- gorbypark 2y ago
  Data point: base model Mac mini is 719€ in Spain, 599€ with the educational discount.
msgilligan 2y ago
I've been using Nix on macOS for almost a year. The good (and bad) thing about Nix is that it supports many different use cases, so you have to spend some time understanding the options before you can even figure out which flavor to install. A good way to get started is to start using Nix to replace/supplement Homebrew. You can install Nix in addition to Homebrew and have some packages installed by one and some by the other. You can uninstall a Homebrew package and then reinstall it with Nix. You can even remove it with Nix and go back to Homebrew if you like. I would generally recommend the following: 1. Use the Determinate Systems Nix installer, see https://zero-to-nix.com/start/install https://zero-to-nix.com/start/install 2. Use "Flakes" (unfortunately the core documentation isn't updated for flakes) 3. Use "Home Manger" -- I would recommend the Flakes-based "Standalone setup": https://nix-community.github.io/home-manager/index.xhtml#sec-flakes-standalone https://nix-community.github.io/home-manager/index.xhtml#sec... I would wait on nix-darwin until you are sure you need/want it. (I have recently started using it for its support of the `linux-builder` feature, but not everyone needs that.) As a software developer who uses macOS to develop for Linux, it is a great tool and I cautiously recommend it to those who are willing to deal with some learning curve and frustration. I haven't yet used nix-darwin enough to make a recommendation one way or another. (But the `linux-builder` feature is compelling if you need it: https://nixcademy.com/posts/macos-linux-builder/ https://nixcademy.com/posts/macos-linux-builder/)
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
hoppp 2y ago
There is a linux for apple silicon called ashani linux.
- virtualwhys 2y ago
  Pretty sure only M1/M2 supported, so none Apple's new offerings will fly...yet. Shame, I'd love to use Linux on Apple's latest and greatest MacBooks, but will stay with tried and true Dell Precision series until the year of the Linux Apple laptop becomes a reality.
thefz 2y ago
650$-€ for 16GB and 256GB? No. Hell no.
lloeki 2y ago
> One can potentially use Nix on a Mac Mini to keep similar development environments to those used in Linux, but AFAIK some packages are not supported on ARM. Any experiences using Nix and nix-darwin as a daily driver? Been using that ever since M1 became a thing; nothing worth mentioning, "not supported" is vanishingly rare in practice.
- _kb 2y ago
  Seconding this. Made the switch back to MacOS with the M series after being on x86 and NixOS prior. The experience was refreshingly tepid.
apexalpha 2y ago
>One can potentially use Nix on a Mac Mini to keep similar development environments to those used in Linux, but AFAIK some packages are not supported on ARM. Any experiences using Nix and nix-darwin as a daily driver? Would this run anything Docker/ARM? My entire home server setup is Linux/Dockerized and the Mac Mini hardware looks so good, but the more I read about MacOS as a server OS the worse it seems to get.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

by nextos 2y ago

vetinari 2y ago

NUC 14th gen with i3 is around 400 EUR with VAT, with no RAM or storage. For the other 250 EUR, surely you can get more RAM than 16 GB and more storage than 256 GB.

nextos 2y ago
I use a NUC as a daily driver. The problem with NUCs is that cooling is suboptimal, the fan is small and thus noisy. It can be fixed with a third-party case, but that's at least €60-100 more for a much slower machine. Plus, you may void the guarantee by transplanting the motherboard.
- vetinari 2y ago
  I have i7 NUC13 mounted on a back of monitor and I can barely hear it. It's not that bad, previously (NUC7-era) it was much worse.
  - benoau 2y ago
    They're usually the same 30 - 50 watt processors used in x86 laptops, once we got past the "dual-core" ceiling they became extremely capable.
- microtonal 2y ago
  It’s a shame that ASUS cancelled the NUC Extreme line. I know it’s quite a bit bigger than other NUCs. But the 13 Extreme had expandability, good cooling, and fast CPU options.
gjsman-1000 2y ago
> NUC 14th gen with i3 is around 400 EUR with VAT 4 cores instead of 10 cores, 69W TDP instead of 22W, UHD Graphics 730 versus Apple's 10 core GPU (0.5 TFLOPs vs about 4.3), 23% worse single core performance, 45% worse multicore, and much louder cooling. It's not a fair comparison.
- vetinari 2y ago
  So get a stronger one. There will be always something that is better on one or another side. I have 13th gen i7, with 64 GB RAM and 2 TB ssd (and 2.5 GbE). It was 800 EUR + VAT, last year. How much would similar Mac Mini cost? Not a fair comparison either. Edit: 69W for the NUC is not TDP. It is 69W power brick that ships with the machine.
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    How noisy is it? I made a fanless NUC 7 (!) years ago with a special case, and it's perhaps due for replacement.
    - vetinari 2y ago
      Still can be heard, but it is not so annoying as it was. The fan noise is, how to describe it, softer? Comparing nuc7i7dnke to nuc13anki7.
  - attentive 2y ago
    what do you get in https://browserbench.org/Speedometer3.0 https://browserbench.org/Speedometer3.0 ? - m4 mini is 45 it seems.
    - vetinari 2y ago
      16.6 in Firefox, 19.8 in Chrome (Ubuntu 24.04, both browsers in flatpak).
    - vetinari 2y ago
      A few more datapoints, of course completely unscientific, because why not: | Firefox | Chrome | Safari | Edge =====================|=========|========|========|======= Intel 1360P (Ubuntu) | 16.6 | 19.8 | n/a | n/a Apple M1 (MacOS) | 24.6. | 26.3 | 28.5 | 28 AMD 2920X (Fedora) | 12.3 | 11.9 | n/a | n/a AMD 2920X (Windows) | 12.2 | n/a | n/a | 14.9
MBCook 2y ago
RAM is completely fair. Apple is certainly out of their mind on storage. But on a desktop it’s trivial to plug-in an external disc that you can buy at an absolutely reasonable price instead of the insane Apple one.
- goosedragons 2y ago
  $200 bucks for 8GB RAM extra is not fair ($200 to go to 24GB, another $200 for 32GB). 64GB DDR5 kits can be had for less than $200. And while you can plug in storage, I think it does kind of ruin the appeal of having such a small device by having a bunch of spaghetti cables. And if the boot drive goes it's not easily replaceable and makes the machine a brick until it is.

talldayo 2y ago

> Any experiences using Nix and nix-darwin as a daily driver? Not positive ones, even on x86 Darwin. Homebrew feels a lot more stable, which is a decidedly concerning thing for the average Nix enjoyer.

edude03 2y ago
What kind of issues are you having?
- talldayo 2y ago
  Well, missing packages for one. Nix prides itself on having one of the most compete package catalogs of any Linux package manager, and on Mac it leaves quite a bit to be desired. A lot of functionality has to be hooked in via home-manager scripts that are a lot less stable than NixOS modules, and since your system isn't built/upgraded by Nix you can't write overlays for a lot of Mac software. If you only need the versioned Flake management then it might be an okay option, but I found myself pretty frustrated by it in places that aren't an issue on Linux. I can't comfortably use it as a Homebrew replacement. Also, my Mac is 256gb which feels far too cramped for Nix. I'd really only recommend it if you're working with 512gb or more.
  - koiueo 2y ago
    Yeah, I eventually realized that nix-darwin is only good for managing the list of homebrew casks. home-manager works better than I'd expect. At least I don't have to spend time configuring vim, git and shell prompt. But overall, Nix on MacOS feels like a hack, behaves like a hack... because it's essentially a hack... I'm waiting for the first reports of Lenovo's t14s gen 6 with Snapdragon X Elite.
    - pxc 2y ago
      > Yeah, I eventually realized that nix-darwin is only good for managing the list of homebrew casks. If that's really all you use it for, and you already use Home Manager, the Homebrew module for Nix-Darwin works fine in Home Manager with some small tweaks. I use that with a custom, per-user Homebrew prefix to keep Homebrew out of the way except for the task of installing casks.

tredre3 2y ago

> With education discount I don't understand why so many people use the discounted price as reference. Surely very few of us on HN are still in college? So let's use the actual price when making comparisons.

no_wizard 2y ago
all you need is a .edu address If I recall correctly. you can buy them on alumni addresses. That said, a far chunk of HNs never completed college, like myself and lost access to any email accounts of this sort, which only further supports your argument directly, as the EDU discount isn't universally attainable
- devmor 2y ago
  I’m going to have to check this out, I no longer have access directly to my old college email, but it still forwards to my gmail over a decade later!
- nicce 2y ago
  Regardless, if people start to abuse this by getting discount while not actually being student or teacher, we can say goodbye to that discount and real students and teachers will suffer from it.
  - redundantly 2y ago
    I've seen this FUD repeated for a long time. Hasn't happened yet. Probably the worst that will happen is they'll start requiring some type of verification again.
  - addicted 2y ago
    They almost certainly won’t get rid of it because people are abusing it. If they do it’s because they don’t want to offer it. If they want to end the abuse they will simply toughen the verification procedure.
    - 2y ago

denkmoon 2y ago

Just put Asahi on there, or any linux you like. I'm sure the support will be there soon if it's not already.

stirlo 2y ago
Asahi Linux doesn’t currently support M4 but it’s planned for next year.
seabrookmx 2y ago
> or any Linux you like That's not a thing. Apple silicon doesn't use EFI so you need a completely custom ROM to satisfy the boot process, hence Asahi. And Asahi doesn't support M4 and likely won't for a while. ARM64 support for GUI apps (via flatpak in the Fedora Asahi Remix) is also pretty poor, though your standard fair of CLI apps are present.
- denkmoon 2y ago
  It is a thing. Sure, it's not easy. You can't just download the Debian build for M1, but it can be built. M4 support will come.

steeleduncan 2y ago

Nix works well on mac, very similar to Nix/Linux for the most part. There are some missing packages, but the common ones tend to be fine. Its worth using the Determinate Systems installer to avoid reinstalling Nix on every macOS update though. Nix-darwin is good, and I use it, but it is nowhere close to NixOS. I think there are some options I've set through it that macOS keeps overriding, so the declarative configuration drifts from the real one eventually I think the only real issue with Nix on macOS is that Nix can eat through storage quite quickly, and storage upgrades are pretty expensive on Macs. This might push the balance back to an fanless ryzen build

nicce 2y ago
> I think the only real issue with Nix on macOS is that Nix can eat through storage quite quickly, and storage upgrades are pretty expensive on Macs. This might push the balance back to an fanless ryzen build Only if you want to be able to roll back multiple versions. Otherwise, I think it is fine.
- lloeki 2y ago
  Indeed I've been liberally using nix-collect-garbage -d after every darwin-rebuild switch without issues for years.
lloeki 2y ago
> Its worth using the Determinate Systems installer to avoid reinstalling Nix on every macOS update though. I've had Nix installed from the traditional installer since the very first M1 and never had to reinstall nixpkgs across OS updates.
- pxc 2y ago
  I guess some people have been addressing the clobbering of /etc/bashrc with full reinstalls?

GeekyBear 2y ago

Beelink has dropped the price for a roughly comparable unit with an Intel Core Ultra from 800 US Dollars to $700. https://www.bee-link.com/products/beelink-sei14-ultra5-125h https://www.bee-link.com/products/beelink-sei14-ultra5-125h

nl 2y ago
This is the best answer. The Beelink (and other mini-PC brands) offer comparable performance. The fact they offer lots of different configurations lets you choose your own trade-offs. Assuming you don't have an operating system preference, the base model Mac Mini is tough to beat outright, but as you upgrade it there are other options that get interesting.
- zimpenfish 2y ago
  > The Beelink (and other mini-PC brands) offer comparable performance. [0] has the new (base!) M4 at 3859 (single) and 14837 (multi) whilst [1] has the Ultra 5 125H 4500 at ~2200 (single) and ~11500 (multi). "comparable" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in your sentence. [0] https://arstechnica.com/apple/2024/11/review-the-fastest-of-the-m4-macbook-pros-might-be-the-least-interesting-one/ https://arstechnica.com/apple/2024/11/review-the-fastest-of-... [1] https://browser.geekbench.com/search?q=Ultra+5+125H https://browser.geekbench.com/search?q=Ultra+5+125H
  - nl 2y ago
    > new (base!) M4 at 3859 (single) and 14837 (multi) I think that's the M4 in the base iMac (8 core), which is different (and less powerful!) than the M4 in the base Mac Mini (10 core). The Beelink is 32Gb RAM + 1TB storage though. Like I said: the base Mac Mini is tough to beat!
  - GeekyBear 2y ago
    A performance test between a Beelink flagship mini PC that was around $1000 and the Mac Mini was recently posted: > M4 Mac Mini vs Intel and AMD Flagships – It's Not Even Close https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Uuu046EE28 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Uuu046EE28 There are even cheaper mini PCs you can buy that offer great bang for the buck for home users who just want to do web browsing and run Office, but the performance isn't at the same level, even if you spend a lot more.

foobarian 2y ago

At this point maybe the main benefit of an x86 machine is it has a spot to plug in an Nvidia GPU :-)

josephg 2y ago
That and Linux support is better, if you need it.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  And you can pick up a used one for less than 1/10 the cost of a Mac Mini and it will be perfectly adequate for most people. I appreciate the technical achievement of the M4 Mac Mini for what it is, but an old x86 machine is more than adequate for my home or even work needs.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

edude03 2y ago

Daily nix user across Mac and Linux, though I use Mac for actual development. No problems here moving between the two with my dev env defined on GitHub [0] [0]: https://github.com/edude03/dotfiles https://github.com/edude03/dotfiles

WuxiFingerHold 2y ago
How do you handle the different keyboard layouts (cmd and ctrl on Mac, ctrl and superkey on Linux)? I'm using a Mac at work and Linux at home with a programmable keyboard but I didn't find a solution to "merge" cmd and ctrl on Mac, so I still need to use both on Mac (not a big drama, but slightly annoying).
- drdo 2y ago
  My half solution is to use a keyboard that physically feels quite different to help my brain use a different mode. The Linux keyboard is a big heavy mechanical keyboard while on the macbook I just use the built-in keyboard. It's not a perfect solution and I still make mistakes, but it helps.

naoru 2y ago

A comparable option in my opinion would be Minisforum 790S7. They also have a separate mini-ITX motherboard from that one if you want to DIY. The CPU in it is faster in raw multi-thread performance, single-threaded it's a bit slower, but still quite impressive. The only problem I had with Minisforum is that they couldn't supply the exact hardware I ordered and their suggested solution was either to wait for 1+ month or get a sligtly different configuration. Two times out of two. Quality-wise they're pretty good though, no complaints there.

nextos 2y ago
That's a good suggestion. How are the cooling systems supplied with Minisforum in terms of noise and efficiency?
- naoru 2y ago
  I can only speak of experience with their UN100D mini PC which I use as a home server in a fairly constrained closet. Not a hot machine by any means, far from that, but the cooling seems pretty decent even for this low power CPU. BD790i that I just received (didn't even install anywhere) has a rather substantial heatsink over the CPU similar to high wattage GPUs. The chip itself is rated at 55W TDP so it shouldn't be that much of a problem cooling it. The motherboard doesn't come with a fan and I'm definitely not going to spend extra on high-end ones at least just yet. I don't know anything about the thermals of 790S7's case though. It looks like they gave it at least some thought judging by the duct over the CPU, but how it actually performs I have no idea.
gzer0 2y ago
I can't find a Minisforum 790S7 for anywhere near the price of the base model mac mini. I am seeing $459.00 USD and that is "BAREBONE (NO OS/RAM/SSD)" [1]. I am comparing this to the M4 Mac Mini base model, that does indeed come with an OS, RAM, and an SSD[2] at $499 USD. [1] https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-mini-itx-pc-790s7-129i7?variant=45966680817909 https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-mini-itx-pc... [2] https://www.apple.com/us-edu/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/apple-m4-chip-with-10-core-cpu-and-10-core-gpu-16gb-memory-256gb https://www.apple.com/us-edu/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/apple-m4-...

rhplus 2y ago

The configuration being tested by OP is a $1499 model.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

koiueo 2y ago

After experiencing NixOS it's hard to settle for anything less. Nix is only good for running home-manager; nix-darwin is mostly a joke (I don't mean disrespect, I appreciate the work devs are doing, but limitations of the platform cripple the entire experience). FWIW, Mitchell Hashimoto runs NixOS VM on his Mac for development. And that's the option I'm gonna implement once I get my MBP from repairs.

cascades42 2y ago

While I suspect it is silent for most tasks, the M4 mini isn’t fanless. For my music studio I’ve enjoyed the M1 mini since it is totally silent and am eager to read some noise tests on the new M4 mini.

rowanG077 2y ago

I can at least attest to linux nix on arm working pretty well as I use NixOS asahi linux. Unfortunately M4 support is not there yet.

msgilligan 2y ago
Asahi M4 support and 3rd-party SSD upgrades[1] will result in me buying an M4 Mini. Glad to hear that Nix works well on Asahi! [1] https://wccftech.com/m4-mac-mini-ssd-already-modded-to-2tb-storage/ https://wccftech.com/m4-mac-mini-ssd-already-modded-to-2tb-s...

throawayonthe 2y ago

well asahi is going to bring M4 support eventually and there is https://github.com/tpwrules/nixos-apple-silicon https://github.com/tpwrules/nixos-apple-silicon also you could just Containerize All The Things on macos idk

cchance 2y ago
Ya like i get the love for linux, but seriously give MacOSX a try for a while, its pretty damn good lol
- kaladin-jasnah 2y ago
  macOS simply doesn't work if I want to run this as a home server, which is my primary use case for an Apple silicon Mac. Most server applications are first class citizens on Linux, like Docker and Kubernetes and caddy/nginx (I know ports exist but there's more documentation and experience on Linux). Furthermore, systemd is a lot more documented than launchd and generally speaking it's easier to do things like upgrading headless, setting up NFS, and the like. I wish Apple offered these machines with official Linux support, but that's antithetical to their philosophy.
- darthrupert 2y ago
  For most developer things it's slightly worse, so to have to pay extra for it is a bit silly.
fulafel 2y ago
There's no container support on macOS unfortunately, except for the frontends for linux virtual machines. (Well they do have a thing called containers, but it's a desktop app security/sandboxing feature that does something conceptually different)
- gorbypark 2y ago
  There's an extremely experimental/feature limited 3rd party implementation of macOS native containers. It requires disabling all sorts of security features, though.

VancouverMan 2y ago

> Pricewise, things start favoring PCs if you need more RAM, as Mac upgrades are costly. That's the position I'm in, along with some other people I've talked to recently, too. For our situations, the M4 would likely offer more than enough processing power, and the efficiency and physical size are attractive, but a maximum of 32 GB of RAM definitely isn't sufficient. The M4 Pro's 64 GB of RAM is somewhat better, but the cost of those upgrades are very hard to justify. I'd also prefer to use the system for at least 5 years, and likely up to 10 years, if not longer. Even if 64 GB is tolerable now, I can easily see it becoming insufficient for my needs before then. The lack of reasonably-priced internal storage, while easier to work around than the lack of sufficient and reasonably-priced RAM, doesn't help matters, too. Even if future Studio models, for example, might allow for a more ideal amount of RAM, I have to expect that unjustifiable upgrade costs will likely still be an issue, and then there's the wait on top of that. I can easily see myself and the others I've talked to settling for PCs, rather than making unjustifiably-expensive Mac purchases.

kamranjon 2y ago
For what it's worth, the apple silicon machines are much more efficient on RAM than most - a 16gb m1 absolutely mops the floor with the 32gb of ram I have in my thinkpad with an i7. It's not really even close.
- layoric 2y ago
  Not sure what you mean by 'efficient', they are faster for sure (amazing memory bandwidth thanks to on chip memory), but to my knowledge they would be the same for amount of data stored. So that same think pad will likely be faster at tasks that need 24GB for example, highly depend on the use case as always.
  - wtallis 2y ago
    Memory requirements for general-purpose desktop usage usually don't come down to a single task with a large working set that needs to fit in RAM in its entirety. It's more often a matter of the aggregate memory usage of many tasks, which means that in practice there's a wide gray area where the OS can make a difference, depending on the effectiveness of its memory compression, swap, signalling memory pressure to applications, suspending background tasks or simply having fewer of them in the first place.

MBCook 2y ago

There was a comparison mentioned on last week’s episode of the Accidental Tech Podcast, I don’t remember if it was pointed out to them or they noticed it themselves. Base Mac mini: $599, 16/256 GB Double storage and ram: $600 upgrade. Price of 32/512 config: $1199 Two 16/256 machines: $1198. The ram is (Apple) reasonable at $200, but $400 for the storage doubling is insane.

matt-p 2y ago
I think you have it the wrong way round? Ram is 400 (200/8GB) storage is 200
- MBCook 2y ago
  Oh do I? Well somehow that seems more insane to me.
ewzimm 2y ago
Also, the 256 uses 2x128 drives while the 512 uses a single drive, so you even get slightly slower storage with the upgrade. The base model is a great deal.
- mkl 2y ago
  Do you have a source on that? It's not what I've read elsewhere, but I'm having trouble finding anything specific.
  - ewzimm 2y ago
    I had to look it up, and I had gotten that slightly wrong. The 256 did switch to 2x128 NAND while the previous model used 1x256, but the 512 is also multiple. https://www.macrumors.com/2024/11/08/m4-mac-mini-modular-storage/ https://www.macrumors.com/2024/11/08/m4-mac-mini-modular-sto...
- einr 2y ago
  This is true for the Mac Studio but not for the M4 Mac Mini -- they all have a single storage slot and the only difference between the 256 and 512 models is the model of the NAND chips.

arianvanp 2y ago

Nix support on Darwin is really good in my experience. Though it does happen that some packages are not supported. Next to that I run a NixOS VM on https://getutm.app/ https://getutm.app/ using Virtualization Framework. Performance is great. You're one setting away `virtualisation.rosetta.enable = true;` to also use that VM for x86_64 packages and builds. I have a WIP PR for Rosetta AOT caching on NixOS as well: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/330829 https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/330829

fulafel 2y ago
How is the graphics/desktop performance in VMs, do you get accelerated graphics with NixOS?

ar_lan 2y ago

I use nix-darwin on an M2 as a daily driver. It works great! A few quirks you need to go with Brew (mostly graphical applications), but my setup is almost identical between my NixOS and my nix-darwin setups other than that (and some OS toggles).

layoric 2y ago

Maybe for a little server or something, but with the hard to upgrade 256GB storage.. I don't get the appeal. Also 16GB of memory is extremely limited these days. Again, perfect for a little server, but not for a daily driver.

mh8h 2y ago
It's a desktop computer. What's keeping you from using an external SSD?
- layoric 2y ago
  For large media, sure, but I really don't to pay a premium to then need to manage where my everyday apps are installed cause I only have 256GB of storage I can't upgrade.
luxuryballs 2y ago
For someone who wants to develop and build apple ecosystem apps or cross-platform an existing game this is a steal.
mahkeiro 2y ago
The storage is easily upgradable on the new Mac mini as it’s using a standard M2 SSD (a short version) https://youtu.be/cJPXLE9uPr8 https://youtu.be/cJPXLE9uPr8
- omnimus 2y ago
  The video is desoldering chips, getting new compatible ones and soldering them back (exactly like Mac Studio). I wouldnt call that easy. Most people would call that the exact opposite.
- bloqs 2y ago
  Except you have to use proprietary SSDs otherwise soldering is involved. 1/10

johndoe0815 2y ago

In Germany you can get the cheapest (base version, 16GB RAM/256GB SSD) M4 Mini for 579€ via Unidays edu discount (also including VAT). I picked mine up from the post office yesterday, it's 50% faster in Geekbench single/multi-core CPU benchmarks than my M1 Pro Macbook Pro and about as fast in GPU performance. Impressive.

ksec 2y ago

>With education discount, it's around €650, It is €579 including VAT. The Educational discount in US is only $499. €650 sounds wrong. Where in EU is that.

gorbypark 2y ago
Data point: base model Mac mini is 719€ in Spain, 599€ with the educational discount.

msgilligan 2y ago

I've been using Nix on macOS for almost a year. The good (and bad) thing about Nix is that it supports many different use cases, so you have to spend some time understanding the options before you can even figure out which flavor to install. A good way to get started is to start using Nix to replace/supplement Homebrew. You can install Nix in addition to Homebrew and have some packages installed by one and some by the other. You can uninstall a Homebrew package and then reinstall it with Nix. You can even remove it with Nix and go back to Homebrew if you like. I would generally recommend the following: 1. Use the Determinate Systems Nix installer, see https://zero-to-nix.com/start/install https://zero-to-nix.com/start/install 2. Use "Flakes" (unfortunately the core documentation isn't updated for flakes) 3. Use "Home Manger" -- I would recommend the Flakes-based "Standalone setup": https://nix-community.github.io/home-manager/index.xhtml#sec-flakes-standalone https://nix-community.github.io/home-manager/index.xhtml#sec... I would wait on nix-darwin until you are sure you need/want it. (I have recently started using it for its support of the `linux-builder` feature, but not everyone needs that.) As a software developer who uses macOS to develop for Linux, it is a great tool and I cautiously recommend it to those who are willing to deal with some learning curve and frustration. I haven't yet used nix-darwin enough to make a recommendation one way or another. (But the `linux-builder` feature is compelling if you need it: https://nixcademy.com/posts/macos-linux-builder/ https://nixcademy.com/posts/macos-linux-builder/)

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

hoppp 2y ago

There is a linux for apple silicon called ashani linux.

virtualwhys 2y ago
Pretty sure only M1/M2 supported, so none Apple's new offerings will fly...yet. Shame, I'd love to use Linux on Apple's latest and greatest MacBooks, but will stay with tried and true Dell Precision series until the year of the Linux Apple laptop becomes a reality.

thefz 2y ago

650$-€ for 16GB and 256GB? No. Hell no.

lloeki 2y ago

> One can potentially use Nix on a Mac Mini to keep similar development environments to those used in Linux, but AFAIK some packages are not supported on ARM. Any experiences using Nix and nix-darwin as a daily driver? Been using that ever since M1 became a thing; nothing worth mentioning, "not supported" is vanishingly rare in practice.

_kb 2y ago
Seconding this. Made the switch back to MacOS with the M series after being on x86 and NixOS prior. The experience was refreshingly tepid.

apexalpha 2y ago

>One can potentially use Nix on a Mac Mini to keep similar development environments to those used in Linux, but AFAIK some packages are not supported on ARM. Any experiences using Nix and nix-darwin as a daily driver? Would this run anything Docker/ARM? My entire home server setup is Linux/Dockerized and the Mac Mini hardware looks so good, but the more I read about MacOS as a server OS the worse it seems to get.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]