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Mitochondria seems to have been an 'accident', yes. That does not mean that other lifeforms in different planets require mitochondria or equivalent organelles.

Mitochondria seems to have been an 'accident', yes. That does not mean that other lifeforms in different planets require mitochondria or equivalent organelles. As long as they can perform the necessary chemical reactions (which could be different in a different environments) and extract enough energy, they should be good. How did mitochondria evolve in the first place? Could they have remained as independent organisms and use their massive energy budget to evolve independently?

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> long as they can perform the necessary chemical reactions That mitochondria are conserved as an independent organelle across almost [1] all eukaryotes, across billions of years of history, suggests this is something the nuclear can’t easily in house. [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6343361/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6343361/
- outworlder 2y ago
  Maybe! That could also suggest that any other strategies were just out competed by this one and lost the opportunity to develop further.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > other strategies were just out competed by this one and lost the opportunity to develop further Absolutely. It also means--however--that any niche where alternative did exist, when exposed to mitochondrial life, they lost. Now that I think about it, it would be pretty funny if we're this universe's cheela [1], a freakishly overclocked biosphere that runs faster not because it had to but because it happened to. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_Egg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_Egg
    - ajuc 2y ago
      Evolution is path-dependent. Notice that mammals were comprehensively outcompeted by dinosaurs till asteroid removed them and gave mammals time and niches to develop in. If you recreated dinosaurs right now they would lose to mammals (for example to homo sapiens). It's perfectly possible that mitochondria are the dinosaurs of "cell powerplants" that just haven't encountered the asteroid to let other (ultimately better) solutions develop.
- jamiek88 2y ago
  There are organisms without mitochondria too though. So it’s viable.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > are organisms without mitochondria too though. So it’s viable. True, it's an anaerobic ersatz cnidarian [1] that may be an escaped cancer [2]. [1] https://daily.jstor.org/who-needs-mitochondria-anyway/ https://daily.jstor.org/who-needs-mitochondria-anyway/ [2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6343361/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6343361/
    - Rumudiez 2y ago
      > [discovered in] gut bacteria from a researcher’s pet chinchilla wow. we could be surrounded by so many extraordinary organisms and not even know it because there's so much variety just in our own backyards
      - satvikpendem 2y ago
        There was a study where participants were asked to swab their belly buttons and lots of new organisms were found. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/12/1-458-bacteria-species-new-to-science-found-in-our-belly-buttons/266360/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/12/1-458-bac...
    - im3w1l 2y ago
      Absolutely fascinating. Especially the exotic multicellularity part. Maybe if it evolves even more multicellularity it will struggle with cancers of its own and have to reevolve tumor suppression, wouldn't that be something?!
- xeeeeeeeeeeenu 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocercomonoides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocercomonoides >It is the first eukaryotic genus to be found to completely lack mitochondria, and all hallmark proteins responsible for mitochondrial function. The genus also lacks any other mitochondria related organelles (MROs) such as hydrogenosomes or mitosomes. Data suggests that the absence of mitochondria is not an ancestral feature, but rather due to secondary loss.
eboynyc32 2y ago
It’s so pathetic to keep hearing that dna is an accident , life is an accident, mitochondria is an accident. What is an accident that natures says “oooops”. When will we take our heads out of the sand and realize the universe is alive and creating everything. There are no goddamn accidents !!!!
- jibal 2y ago
  People whose heads are out of the sand reject that misunderstanding of the universe and nature, neither of which are agents.
- exe34 2y ago
  all happy little accidents!
- AlphaEsponjosus 2y ago
  What? When saying that "X" is an accident, nobody means "nature says 'oooops'. Nature is neither conscious nor alive, if universe were alive and creates and shapes life, why is there so many errors happening in the universe? Everything exist by " accident", and that means that is the result of random events that happen unexpectedly in unimaginable places, leading to an environent were the outcome of this events causes more random events. Why universe insist in making life so uncommon if it has the secret to create and replicate?
pieter_mj 2y ago
Mitochondria are bacteria that were endosymbioticized into what became the eukaryotic cell. Mitochondria can still survive (live) independently and functionally in the blood when they're separated from platelets and microvesicles. Mitochondria are the software that epigenetically switch nuclear DNA genes on and off. That sofware can be tweaked by light, for instance UV light or IR light. mtDNA mutates x1000000 more rapidly than nuclear DNA.
- dekhn 2y ago
  uhh where did you get " Mitochondria are the software that epigenetically switch nuclear DNA genes on and off."
liyamchitayat 2y ago
One interesting thing is that many reactions actually have to occur in their own compartment- and since we have not lost the mtDNA, it may suggest that having an additional control center is beneficial.there are some interesting theories about the relations of that to lifespan https://www.cuimc.columbia.edu/news/mitochondria-are-flinging-their-dna-our-brain-cells#:~:text=They%20also%20found%20that%20people,influence%20lifespan%2C%E2%80%9D%20Picard%20says https://www.cuimc.columbia.edu/news/mitochondria-are-flingin....
- im3w1l 2y ago
  Couldn't it be that we haven't fully lost mtDNA because it's simply a very slow process that has not yet run its course?
  - aydyn 2y ago
    Given how old mitochondria are it seems more likely that its more efficient to have its own DNA. DNA isn't just abstract information, it's also where the first step of protein / enzyme construction occurs. DNA location matters.
patcon 2y ago
Mitochondria allowed who different energetic regimes and structures. Like the scaffold that allows multicellular organisms to even hold together simpler are not possible (energetically) without mitochondria. It took the whole marriage of the two systems to allow the energy state (the "chemical reactions" as you say) to be possible SFI Complexity podcast has a few great episodes on this
WalterSear 2y ago
> Could they have remained as independent organisms and use their massive energy budget to evolve independently? This presumes that their energy budget was massive to begin with, rather than being selected for over time.
- Symmetry 2y ago
  It's more that cells can have large numbers of mitochondria than that teach produces a large amount of power. Prokaryotic cells can grow large, but because they respirate over their surface they are energy limited.
smolder 2y ago
Right, the requirement for life is an entropy gradient sustained long enough as well as the right materials present to capture that.
mjan22640 2y ago
The benefit of mitochondria is in the isolation of the high power reactions, that involve chemically aggressive elements, from the rest of the cell. That allows for high energy throughput without self damage. Cells that do not have mitochondria run the same or analogous power producing reactions, but at a much lower volume, to keep the damage sustainable. An alternative option to mitochondria would be to evolve some means for isolation of the power production.
gus_massa 2y ago
> Could they have remained as independent organisms and use their massive energy budget to evolve independently? There are independent mitochondrial relative. They are mostly parasites that live inside cells. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrion > The proto-mitochondrion was probably closely related to Rickettsia. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickettsia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickettsia > Being obligate intracellular bacteria, rickettsias depend on entry, growth, and replication within the cytoplasm of living eukaryotic host cells (typically endothelial cells). > Most notably, Rickettsia species are the pathogens responsible for typhus, rickettsialpox, boutonneuse fever, African tick-bite fever, Rocky Mountain spotted fever, Flinders Island spotted fever, and Queensland tick typhus (Australian tick typhus).

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> long as they can perform the necessary chemical reactions That mitochondria are conserved as an independent organelle across almost [1] all eukaryotes, across billions of years of history, suggests this is something the nuclear can’t easily in house. [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6343361/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6343361/

outworlder 2y ago
Maybe! That could also suggest that any other strategies were just out competed by this one and lost the opportunity to develop further.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > other strategies were just out competed by this one and lost the opportunity to develop further Absolutely. It also means--however--that any niche where alternative did exist, when exposed to mitochondrial life, they lost. Now that I think about it, it would be pretty funny if we're this universe's cheela [1], a freakishly overclocked biosphere that runs faster not because it had to but because it happened to. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_Egg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_Egg
  - ajuc 2y ago
    Evolution is path-dependent. Notice that mammals were comprehensively outcompeted by dinosaurs till asteroid removed them and gave mammals time and niches to develop in. If you recreated dinosaurs right now they would lose to mammals (for example to homo sapiens). It's perfectly possible that mitochondria are the dinosaurs of "cell powerplants" that just haven't encountered the asteroid to let other (ultimately better) solutions develop.
jamiek88 2y ago
There are organisms without mitochondria too though. So it’s viable.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > are organisms without mitochondria too though. So it’s viable. True, it's an anaerobic ersatz cnidarian [1] that may be an escaped cancer [2]. [1] https://daily.jstor.org/who-needs-mitochondria-anyway/ https://daily.jstor.org/who-needs-mitochondria-anyway/ [2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6343361/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6343361/
  - Rumudiez 2y ago
    > [discovered in] gut bacteria from a researcher’s pet chinchilla wow. we could be surrounded by so many extraordinary organisms and not even know it because there's so much variety just in our own backyards
    - satvikpendem 2y ago
      There was a study where participants were asked to swab their belly buttons and lots of new organisms were found. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/12/1-458-bacteria-species-new-to-science-found-in-our-belly-buttons/266360/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/12/1-458-bac...
  - im3w1l 2y ago
    Absolutely fascinating. Especially the exotic multicellularity part. Maybe if it evolves even more multicellularity it will struggle with cancers of its own and have to reevolve tumor suppression, wouldn't that be something?!
xeeeeeeeeeeenu 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocercomonoides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocercomonoides >It is the first eukaryotic genus to be found to completely lack mitochondria, and all hallmark proteins responsible for mitochondrial function. The genus also lacks any other mitochondria related organelles (MROs) such as hydrogenosomes or mitosomes. Data suggests that the absence of mitochondria is not an ancestral feature, but rather due to secondary loss.

eboynyc32 2y ago

It’s so pathetic to keep hearing that dna is an accident , life is an accident, mitochondria is an accident. What is an accident that natures says “oooops”. When will we take our heads out of the sand and realize the universe is alive and creating everything. There are no goddamn accidents !!!!

jibal 2y ago
People whose heads are out of the sand reject that misunderstanding of the universe and nature, neither of which are agents.
exe34 2y ago
all happy little accidents!
AlphaEsponjosus 2y ago
What? When saying that "X" is an accident, nobody means "nature says 'oooops'. Nature is neither conscious nor alive, if universe were alive and creates and shapes life, why is there so many errors happening in the universe? Everything exist by " accident", and that means that is the result of random events that happen unexpectedly in unimaginable places, leading to an environent were the outcome of this events causes more random events. Why universe insist in making life so uncommon if it has the secret to create and replicate?

pieter_mj 2y ago

Mitochondria are bacteria that were endosymbioticized into what became the eukaryotic cell. Mitochondria can still survive (live) independently and functionally in the blood when they're separated from platelets and microvesicles. Mitochondria are the software that epigenetically switch nuclear DNA genes on and off. That sofware can be tweaked by light, for instance UV light or IR light. mtDNA mutates x1000000 more rapidly than nuclear DNA.

dekhn 2y ago
uhh where did you get " Mitochondria are the software that epigenetically switch nuclear DNA genes on and off."

liyamchitayat 2y ago

One interesting thing is that many reactions actually have to occur in their own compartment- and since we have not lost the mtDNA, it may suggest that having an additional control center is beneficial.there are some interesting theories about the relations of that to lifespan https://www.cuimc.columbia.edu/news/mitochondria-are-flinging-their-dna-our-brain-cells#:~:text=They%20also%20found%20that%20people,influence%20lifespan%2C%E2%80%9D%20Picard%20says https://www.cuimc.columbia.edu/news/mitochondria-are-flingin....

im3w1l 2y ago
Couldn't it be that we haven't fully lost mtDNA because it's simply a very slow process that has not yet run its course?
- aydyn 2y ago
  Given how old mitochondria are it seems more likely that its more efficient to have its own DNA. DNA isn't just abstract information, it's also where the first step of protein / enzyme construction occurs. DNA location matters.

patcon 2y ago

Mitochondria allowed who different energetic regimes and structures. Like the scaffold that allows multicellular organisms to even hold together simpler are not possible (energetically) without mitochondria. It took the whole marriage of the two systems to allow the energy state (the "chemical reactions" as you say) to be possible SFI Complexity podcast has a few great episodes on this

WalterSear 2y ago

> Could they have remained as independent organisms and use their massive energy budget to evolve independently? This presumes that their energy budget was massive to begin with, rather than being selected for over time.

Symmetry 2y ago
It's more that cells can have large numbers of mitochondria than that teach produces a large amount of power. Prokaryotic cells can grow large, but because they respirate over their surface they are energy limited.

smolder 2y ago

Right, the requirement for life is an entropy gradient sustained long enough as well as the right materials present to capture that.

mjan22640 2y ago

The benefit of mitochondria is in the isolation of the high power reactions, that involve chemically aggressive elements, from the rest of the cell. That allows for high energy throughput without self damage. Cells that do not have mitochondria run the same or analogous power producing reactions, but at a much lower volume, to keep the damage sustainable. An alternative option to mitochondria would be to evolve some means for isolation of the power production.

gus_massa 2y ago

> Could they have remained as independent organisms and use their massive energy budget to evolve independently? There are independent mitochondrial relative. They are mostly parasites that live inside cells. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrion > The proto-mitochondrion was probably closely related to Rickettsia. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickettsia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickettsia > Being obligate intracellular bacteria, rickettsias depend on entry, growth, and replication within the cytoplasm of living eukaryotic host cells (typically endothelial cells). > Most notably, Rickettsia species are the pathogens responsible for typhus, rickettsialpox, boutonneuse fever, African tick-bite fever, Rocky Mountain spotted fever, Flinders Island spotted fever, and Queensland tick typhus (Australian tick typhus).