6 ms·

As a german imo the real problem is that we replaced reasoning with ideology. There are sometimes complex connections between cause and effect. It is not enoug

As a german imo the real problem is that we replaced reasoning with ideology. There are sometimes complex connections between cause and effect. It is not enough to just have the right intention.

rasmus1610 2y ago
This. Just had a longer discussion with my wife just now why this is. So many discussions in Germany revolve around ideology and not what’s best in the situation right now.
- huijzer 2y ago
  Same in the US. Especially in the party that now lost. Maybe believing in some equality fairyland where everything is fair and equal doesn’t work. Doesn’t work for the US and doesn’t work for Germany. You need to let crazy people do crazy things (within the law of course). Many inventors were “crazy” at the time including Einstein, Turing and DaVinci to name a few. Maybe in 50 years we will talk about the government that forced Turing to take medication against his homosexuality in the same way as the woke politicians who supported cancel culture. A culture that has caused many academics to lose their job and caused even more academics to fear speaking up. Germany is in a really dire situation now by the way. Car production is about 17% of GDP and sales for all their brands are declining steadily. Especially Chinese sales are going down fast. Relatedly, Xiami is now one of the fastest cars on the Nordschleife. But the German government doesn’t seem to have any solutions. Yes close power plants. Oh wait they have now the highest electricity prices in the whole of Europe. And this is while their education system is fine. Young German engineers are great I think. I’ve seen many great German open source developers. Especially of course the creators of Typst.
  - huijzer 2y ago
    To the people downvoting me again. Please come with arguments instead of just clicking the “I disagree” button. I’ll happily be proven wrong but I need someone to do it. Just clicking “I disagree” doesn’t add anything to the discussion. Thank you.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      “Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.” https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - xnyan 2y ago
      It's ok to downvote without comment if someone is not following the posted rules: Please "respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says" Your response included the statement: "The left wants to chemically castrate gay teenagers and ban single-sex gay spaces." - I don't think that's a response made to the strongest plausible interpretation of mschuster91's post.
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > You need to let crazy people do crazy things (within the law of course). Yeah, like stripping away LGBT rights or abortion? The far-right, no matter if we are talking about the US, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Argentinia, Israel or the UK, has clearly stated what they want to do, and they have shown in more than enough cases (Argentinia, USA, UK) that they are willing to throw the entire nation under the bus for their ideological bullshit! And the people have suffered horribly for the foolishness of their fellow countrymen.
    - ClassyJacket 2y ago
      [flagged]
    - huijzer 2y ago
      I don’t know about you, but I actually watched interviews with Trump and he mostly seems to indicate that he doesn’t want a nation-wide ban on abortion. It should be up for individual states to decide. Although I’m in favor of more choice for women, I don’t think Trump’s stance is completely unreasonable. There are already more than enough federal rules and some states want to be more strict. But you make it sound like Trump wants to strip away abortion rights. Please give me a recent interview in which he himself clearly said that. Otherwise it seems someone else came up with that narrative.
      - ywvcbk 2y ago
        > he doesn’t want a nation-wide ban I guess he’s too old now but it still must be pretty personal to him.
    - throw310822 2y ago
      > like stripping away LGBT rights or abortion? These are ideological battles which are specular to those of the left. All these laws to extend and protect LGBT rights? Marginally useful only to a small minority (which should be already protected in its fundamental rights by the normal laws) but great to avoid talking about difficult issues: how to go against established interests to improve the economy, how to modernise administration so that is more efficient and cheaper, etc.
  - gndk 2y ago
    > And this is while their education system is fine. Young German engineers are great I think. German education system is not as fine as it used to be. It might still be fine at the later high school and university levels, but earlier school classes now often have a majority of kids that don't speak German, holding the whole class back. In parts of problem cities like Berlin there are even classes where no kid speaks German. We don't have enough teachers and the ones who are still there are frustrated and overworked.
    - blubberblase42 2y ago
      > but earlier school classes now often have a majority of kids that don't speak German, holding the whole class back Nope, that's not the problem. My wife is a teacher. Schools where teachers don't go on the toilet because it's so fucked up. That's the problem. But we need to reduce money there, because we need more tax breaks.
  - osrmostsis 2y ago
    "Car production is about 17% of GDP" Not sure where you got this number. Actually it's been between 4% and 5% for the last couple of years.
    - huijzer 2y ago
      Thanks. I think you’re right. This is my source: https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/exports-by-category https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/exports-by-category 295B for “vehicles other than railway, tramway”. I don’t know where the 17% on that page comes from. It’s indeed 6% if you compare it to GDP (4.4T).
  - baud147258 2y ago
    > Same in the US. Especially in the party that now lost. I'd say it's the same in both parties
- p2detar 2y ago
  Perhaps it's time to integrate LLMs into politics. Not sure that I'm even joking at this point.
- tcfhgj 2y ago
  Very vague content free statement. Best is subjective, some care about human rights, some care about their children, some care about people other than themselves and others don't care and frame everything they don't care about as ideology.
  - ziotom78 2y ago
    I am not the OP, but comparing the following news reveals a lot of bad ideology. https://www.politico.eu/article/nuclear-reactors-germany-invest-gas-power-plants-energy/ https://www.politico.eu/article/nuclear-reactors-germany-inv... https://montelnews.com/news/652d5434-12f1-459b-bec5-8c1236f3ef28/german-hourly-spot-exceeds-eur-800-as-wind-hits-10-yr-low https://montelnews.com/news/652d5434-12f1-459b-bec5-8c1236f3...
    - imtringued 2y ago
      Here are the devastating results of that bad ideology: https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/renewable_share/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&interval=year https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/renewable_share/chart.... https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&interval=year&year=2021 https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l... https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&interval=year&year=2022 https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l... https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&interval=year&year=2023 https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l... https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&interval=year&year=2024 https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l...
      - ziotom78 2y ago
        These are not "the results", this is a particular aspect of the whole story. What about the price? The total energy in TWh? (Spoiler: I checked these data in the same site you linked, and the ideology still looks bad.)
    - tcfhgj 2y ago
      Not really
ahartmetz 2y ago
"Gesinnungsethik" - We had the purest ideas, never mind the results. A real scourge. For some reason, it seems to be most popular with those with the highest education and the corresponding parties. Intelligent people doing stupid things on the regular, that takes ideology.
illiac786 2y ago
I don’t think there was ever much reasoning. What changed is the scale at which emotions can be exploited nowadays. I just obliterates any reasoning happening…
amadeuspagel 2y ago
No, it is this attitude, which was even reflected in the speeches the party leaders gave after the breakup, accusing each other of "ideology", that is the problem. Every single party in germany claims to stand for "reasoning", "pragmatism" and accuses others of "ideology". People brandmark anything they disagree with as ideology, as in "heizungsideologie" for example. (The idea that gas heating should be replaced with heay pumps.) Voting for people who are the quietest about expressing their own beliefs and loudest about denouncing other beliefs as "ideology" is exactly how germany got into this mess.
- the5avage 2y ago
  I think you have a very special definition of reasoning only you can understand.
  - fabifabulous 2y ago
    Nope. They‘re absolutely right.
  - amadeuspagel 2y ago
    My point doesn't rely on any definition of reasoning, just that every party claims to stand for it.

As a german imo the real problem is that we replaced reasoning with ideology. There are sometimes complex connections between cause and effect. It is not enough to just have the right intention.

rasmus1610 2y ago

This. Just had a longer discussion with my wife just now why this is. So many discussions in Germany revolve around ideology and not what’s best in the situation right now.

huijzer 2y ago
Same in the US. Especially in the party that now lost. Maybe believing in some equality fairyland where everything is fair and equal doesn’t work. Doesn’t work for the US and doesn’t work for Germany. You need to let crazy people do crazy things (within the law of course). Many inventors were “crazy” at the time including Einstein, Turing and DaVinci to name a few. Maybe in 50 years we will talk about the government that forced Turing to take medication against his homosexuality in the same way as the woke politicians who supported cancel culture. A culture that has caused many academics to lose their job and caused even more academics to fear speaking up. Germany is in a really dire situation now by the way. Car production is about 17% of GDP and sales for all their brands are declining steadily. Especially Chinese sales are going down fast. Relatedly, Xiami is now one of the fastest cars on the Nordschleife. But the German government doesn’t seem to have any solutions. Yes close power plants. Oh wait they have now the highest electricity prices in the whole of Europe. And this is while their education system is fine. Young German engineers are great I think. I’ve seen many great German open source developers. Especially of course the creators of Typst.
- huijzer 2y ago
  To the people downvoting me again. Please come with arguments instead of just clicking the “I disagree” button. I’ll happily be proven wrong but I need someone to do it. Just clicking “I disagree” doesn’t add anything to the discussion. Thank you.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    “Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.” https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - xnyan 2y ago
    It's ok to downvote without comment if someone is not following the posted rules: Please "respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says" Your response included the statement: "The left wants to chemically castrate gay teenagers and ban single-sex gay spaces." - I don't think that's a response made to the strongest plausible interpretation of mschuster91's post.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > You need to let crazy people do crazy things (within the law of course). Yeah, like stripping away LGBT rights or abortion? The far-right, no matter if we are talking about the US, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Argentinia, Israel or the UK, has clearly stated what they want to do, and they have shown in more than enough cases (Argentinia, USA, UK) that they are willing to throw the entire nation under the bus for their ideological bullshit! And the people have suffered horribly for the foolishness of their fellow countrymen.
  - ClassyJacket 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - huijzer 2y ago
    I don’t know about you, but I actually watched interviews with Trump and he mostly seems to indicate that he doesn’t want a nation-wide ban on abortion. It should be up for individual states to decide. Although I’m in favor of more choice for women, I don’t think Trump’s stance is completely unreasonable. There are already more than enough federal rules and some states want to be more strict. But you make it sound like Trump wants to strip away abortion rights. Please give me a recent interview in which he himself clearly said that. Otherwise it seems someone else came up with that narrative.
    - ywvcbk 2y ago
      > he doesn’t want a nation-wide ban I guess he’s too old now but it still must be pretty personal to him.
  - throw310822 2y ago
    > like stripping away LGBT rights or abortion? These are ideological battles which are specular to those of the left. All these laws to extend and protect LGBT rights? Marginally useful only to a small minority (which should be already protected in its fundamental rights by the normal laws) but great to avoid talking about difficult issues: how to go against established interests to improve the economy, how to modernise administration so that is more efficient and cheaper, etc.
- gndk 2y ago
  > And this is while their education system is fine. Young German engineers are great I think. German education system is not as fine as it used to be. It might still be fine at the later high school and university levels, but earlier school classes now often have a majority of kids that don't speak German, holding the whole class back. In parts of problem cities like Berlin there are even classes where no kid speaks German. We don't have enough teachers and the ones who are still there are frustrated and overworked.
  - blubberblase42 2y ago
    > but earlier school classes now often have a majority of kids that don't speak German, holding the whole class back Nope, that's not the problem. My wife is a teacher. Schools where teachers don't go on the toilet because it's so fucked up. That's the problem. But we need to reduce money there, because we need more tax breaks.
- osrmostsis 2y ago
  "Car production is about 17% of GDP" Not sure where you got this number. Actually it's been between 4% and 5% for the last couple of years.
  - huijzer 2y ago
    Thanks. I think you’re right. This is my source: https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/exports-by-category https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/exports-by-category 295B for “vehicles other than railway, tramway”. I don’t know where the 17% on that page comes from. It’s indeed 6% if you compare it to GDP (4.4T).
- baud147258 2y ago
  > Same in the US. Especially in the party that now lost. I'd say it's the same in both parties
p2detar 2y ago
Perhaps it's time to integrate LLMs into politics. Not sure that I'm even joking at this point.
tcfhgj 2y ago
Very vague content free statement. Best is subjective, some care about human rights, some care about their children, some care about people other than themselves and others don't care and frame everything they don't care about as ideology.
- ziotom78 2y ago
  I am not the OP, but comparing the following news reveals a lot of bad ideology. https://www.politico.eu/article/nuclear-reactors-germany-invest-gas-power-plants-energy/ https://www.politico.eu/article/nuclear-reactors-germany-inv... https://montelnews.com/news/652d5434-12f1-459b-bec5-8c1236f3ef28/german-hourly-spot-exceeds-eur-800-as-wind-hits-10-yr-low https://montelnews.com/news/652d5434-12f1-459b-bec5-8c1236f3...
  - imtringued 2y ago
    Here are the devastating results of that bad ideology: https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/renewable_share/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&interval=year https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/renewable_share/chart.... https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&interval=year&year=2021 https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l... https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&interval=year&year=2022 https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l... https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&interval=year&year=2023 https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l... https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&interval=year&year=2024 https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l...
    - ziotom78 2y ago
      These are not "the results", this is a particular aspect of the whole story. What about the price? The total energy in TWh? (Spoiler: I checked these data in the same site you linked, and the ideology still looks bad.)
  - tcfhgj 2y ago
    Not really

ahartmetz 2y ago

"Gesinnungsethik" - We had the purest ideas, never mind the results. A real scourge. For some reason, it seems to be most popular with those with the highest education and the corresponding parties. Intelligent people doing stupid things on the regular, that takes ideology.

illiac786 2y ago

I don’t think there was ever much reasoning. What changed is the scale at which emotions can be exploited nowadays. I just obliterates any reasoning happening…

amadeuspagel 2y ago

No, it is this attitude, which was even reflected in the speeches the party leaders gave after the breakup, accusing each other of "ideology", that is the problem. Every single party in germany claims to stand for "reasoning", "pragmatism" and accuses others of "ideology". People brandmark anything they disagree with as ideology, as in "heizungsideologie" for example. (The idea that gas heating should be replaced with heay pumps.) Voting for people who are the quietest about expressing their own beliefs and loudest about denouncing other beliefs as "ideology" is exactly how germany got into this mess.

the5avage 2y ago
I think you have a very special definition of reasoning only you can understand.
- fabifabulous 2y ago
  Nope. They‘re absolutely right.
- amadeuspagel 2y ago
  My point doesn't rely on any definition of reasoning, just that every party claims to stand for it.