11 ms·

Most men care. We have wives, mothers, daughters, friends. But it becomes very hard to vote for a party (mind you, I'm not American, but this is showing up ever

by wvh 2y ago

Most men care. We have wives, mothers, daughters, friends. But it becomes very hard to vote for a party (mind you, I'm not American, but this is showing up everywhere) that airs too many radical sentiments that men are shit and useless. You lose your support. You can't build a majority that way. Keep the sensible people in the middle in the loop.

ethagnawl 2y ago
> ... that airs too many radical sentiments that men are shit and useless. Are some people on TikTok saying things like this? Sure. Was this part of the campaign's messaging or the party's platform? No. Not in the least.
- wvh 2y ago
  If the average "CIS white male" feels this way and is checking out, you've got a problem, whether you're the cause or not. It's perception more so than truth that's costing "the left" the elections. If people are rather loudly letting you know they feel left out, you'd better come up with a strategy that somehow resonates with them, rather than saying "we never said that" and continue to lose their vote. Whether you think that's justified or not is not really relevant, not if you want to win, at least. The same thing goes the other way 'round, if the democrats would win because too many women would have felt left out from the Republican party stance, something I can easily understand too.
  - sofixa 2y ago
    > the average "CIS white male" feels this way and is checking out, you've got a problem, whether you're the cause or not. It's perception more so than truth that's costing "the left" the elections. Yes, you have a problem, and it's called disinformation. > If people are rather loudly letting you know they feel left out, you'd better come up with a strategy that somehow resonates with them, rather than saying "we never said that" and continue to lose their vote. Whether you think that's justified or not is not really relevant, not if you want to win, at least. This is some ludicrous reasoning. What do you want them to do other than say "we literally never said that"? How exactly do you picture them campaigning against strawmen and imagined threats? If people are too dumb to realise they're being lied too, that's really unfortunate, but you can't fix stupid. Ultimately that's why populist politicians with empty words are on the rise. You really cannot fix stupid.
    - ethagnawl 2y ago
      Thank you for eloquently expressing the knee jerk version of what I was going to say, which is _that sounds like a you/them problem_. So, reading between the lines, it sounds like these "CIS white males" (I am one, hi!) are being triggered by discussion of inclusion, bias, systemic misogyny, etc. It's not always pleasant to have a light shown on your biases but how else do you expect to grow or for society to ever change? Imagine if abolitionists or suffragettes had kowtowed to people who did or threatened to "check out" because of their work? By GP's (implied) logic, they should have and worked to overtly deal with those issues at. ... some indeterminate point in the future?
manquer 2y ago
> Most men care. I don't think so, caring means doing something about it, if men weren't deeply misogynistic there would have been a woman president decades before. The behavior of men is not surprising however and is expected. What is shocking is half the women in this country also don't care about their own interests either. It is one thing for immigrants or working class to be voting against their own interests, economic and border policies are abstract and people historically have failed to attribute links to the administration responsible. Abortion is not abstract however, the linkage to right-wing policy is straightforward.
- tekknik 2y ago
  Or maybe she was a bad candidate? Who in their right mind votes based on the sexual organs a person has?
  - selykg 2y ago
    So many times I have seen women say "we aren't ready for a woman president, they're too hysterical" The misogyny is so deep that women experience it from other women.
    - tekknik 2y ago
      many women I asked are absolutely ready, but every single one of them were depressed at the idea of Harris being the first. given she can’t put a sentence together they didn’t want the shame.
      - DiscourseFan 2y ago
        I know so many women who far more affable than Harris, yet the democrats can’t find a single one to run
  - manquer 2y ago
    When there are life or death issues at stake regarding those organs , which organs they have absolutely warrants consideration
siffin 2y ago
Did that really happen though? or did the right just amplify those messages because they're very effective to campaign on? and now everyone just repeats them. Maybe even making a lot of young men feel even more despondent and useless in the process. Kinda funny how the moment real progress is made on trying to give anyone other than males a hand up, they start crying like babies about how they're not getting enough attention. Meanwhile, those same men are literally stripping away women's rights to their own body.
- stogot 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - mastersummoner 2y ago
    I'm an informed, white, male Democrat and I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
    - stogot 2y ago
      It’s not always in the news but I’ll share an article by a democrat that summarizes a lot of the positions: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-ideas-that-are-reshaping-the-democratic-party-and-america/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-ideas-that-are-resh... those opinions (your privileged) become “shut up” and “you should be ashamed” in public discourse (I’ve seen it) Your welcome to search for the reverse racism and DEI lawsuits if you think this does not impact people in practice
      - sofixa 2y ago
        That's a random journalist, what the hell does he have to do with the democratic party and "the left"?
        slothtrop 2y ago
        Because to them people on Twitter and the DNC are the same thing.
thrance 2y ago
Give me a single instance of a Democrat criticizing men in general, I'll give you 10 of Trump/Vance justifying rape or abuse or pedophilia
- philistine 2y ago
  Don’t bother. It only goes so far as the democrats are demonizing men but there are no examples. The fact is the democrats did not run on demonizing men, the republicans ran on the democrats demonizing men.
  - code_runner 2y ago
    And that’s why you have to appeal to them all the more. You have to be able to understand and counteract messaging like this. Proof is in the pudding
    - tekknik 2y ago
      do you remember a time when the republicans were even keeled and tempered and the democrats kept calling them hitler, nazis, facists, and so on? I certainly remember. The only way to counter this message is to stop with the hate speech. Like the parent above said. Even independents are tired of it now. Of course likely the left will again ignore the warnings and continue on so I’m quite anxious to see what 2026 and 2028 bring.
      - philistine 2y ago
        I have no clue what you're talking about? Did Gore call Bush a fascist? Obama? Ultimately, I see the world this way: people want good things for others. Most people who voted for Trump aren't directly fascists. Trump himself I wouldn't even qualify as a fascist. But he espouses fascistic policies. Immigrants polluting the blood of America, stuff like that, those are fascist ways of talking about immigration. So at some point we have to talk about things, and denounce them. And no, Trump himself is not Mussolini. But the shortcut of calling him a fascist is ultimately okay. Same thing with racisms. Most people aren't fundamentally racist, but they'll espouse racist opinions. So they're racist.

by wvh 2y ago

ethagnawl 2y ago

> ... that airs too many radical sentiments that men are shit and useless. Are some people on TikTok saying things like this? Sure. Was this part of the campaign's messaging or the party's platform? No. Not in the least.

wvh 2y ago
If the average "CIS white male" feels this way and is checking out, you've got a problem, whether you're the cause or not. It's perception more so than truth that's costing "the left" the elections. If people are rather loudly letting you know they feel left out, you'd better come up with a strategy that somehow resonates with them, rather than saying "we never said that" and continue to lose their vote. Whether you think that's justified or not is not really relevant, not if you want to win, at least. The same thing goes the other way 'round, if the democrats would win because too many women would have felt left out from the Republican party stance, something I can easily understand too.
- sofixa 2y ago
  > the average "CIS white male" feels this way and is checking out, you've got a problem, whether you're the cause or not. It's perception more so than truth that's costing "the left" the elections. Yes, you have a problem, and it's called disinformation. > If people are rather loudly letting you know they feel left out, you'd better come up with a strategy that somehow resonates with them, rather than saying "we never said that" and continue to lose their vote. Whether you think that's justified or not is not really relevant, not if you want to win, at least. This is some ludicrous reasoning. What do you want them to do other than say "we literally never said that"? How exactly do you picture them campaigning against strawmen and imagined threats? If people are too dumb to realise they're being lied too, that's really unfortunate, but you can't fix stupid. Ultimately that's why populist politicians with empty words are on the rise. You really cannot fix stupid.
  - ethagnawl 2y ago
    Thank you for eloquently expressing the knee jerk version of what I was going to say, which is _that sounds like a you/them problem_. So, reading between the lines, it sounds like these "CIS white males" (I am one, hi!) are being triggered by discussion of inclusion, bias, systemic misogyny, etc. It's not always pleasant to have a light shown on your biases but how else do you expect to grow or for society to ever change? Imagine if abolitionists or suffragettes had kowtowed to people who did or threatened to "check out" because of their work? By GP's (implied) logic, they should have and worked to overtly deal with those issues at. ... some indeterminate point in the future?

manquer 2y ago

> Most men care. I don't think so, caring means doing something about it, if men weren't deeply misogynistic there would have been a woman president decades before. The behavior of men is not surprising however and is expected. What is shocking is half the women in this country also don't care about their own interests either. It is one thing for immigrants or working class to be voting against their own interests, economic and border policies are abstract and people historically have failed to attribute links to the administration responsible. Abortion is not abstract however, the linkage to right-wing policy is straightforward.

tekknik 2y ago
Or maybe she was a bad candidate? Who in their right mind votes based on the sexual organs a person has?
- selykg 2y ago
  So many times I have seen women say "we aren't ready for a woman president, they're too hysterical" The misogyny is so deep that women experience it from other women.
  - tekknik 2y ago
    many women I asked are absolutely ready, but every single one of them were depressed at the idea of Harris being the first. given she can’t put a sentence together they didn’t want the shame.
    - DiscourseFan 2y ago
      I know so many women who far more affable than Harris, yet the democrats can’t find a single one to run
- manquer 2y ago
  When there are life or death issues at stake regarding those organs , which organs they have absolutely warrants consideration

siffin 2y ago

Did that really happen though? or did the right just amplify those messages because they're very effective to campaign on? and now everyone just repeats them. Maybe even making a lot of young men feel even more despondent and useless in the process. Kinda funny how the moment real progress is made on trying to give anyone other than males a hand up, they start crying like babies about how they're not getting enough attention. Meanwhile, those same men are literally stripping away women's rights to their own body.

stogot 2y ago
[flagged]
- mastersummoner 2y ago
  I'm an informed, white, male Democrat and I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
  - stogot 2y ago
    It’s not always in the news but I’ll share an article by a democrat that summarizes a lot of the positions: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-ideas-that-are-reshaping-the-democratic-party-and-america/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-ideas-that-are-resh... those opinions (your privileged) become “shut up” and “you should be ashamed” in public discourse (I’ve seen it) Your welcome to search for the reverse racism and DEI lawsuits if you think this does not impact people in practice
    - sofixa 2y ago
      That's a random journalist, what the hell does he have to do with the democratic party and "the left"?
      - slothtrop 2y ago
        Because to them people on Twitter and the DNC are the same thing.

thrance 2y ago

Give me a single instance of a Democrat criticizing men in general, I'll give you 10 of Trump/Vance justifying rape or abuse or pedophilia

philistine 2y ago
Don’t bother. It only goes so far as the democrats are demonizing men but there are no examples. The fact is the democrats did not run on demonizing men, the republicans ran on the democrats demonizing men.
- code_runner 2y ago
  And that’s why you have to appeal to them all the more. You have to be able to understand and counteract messaging like this. Proof is in the pudding
  - tekknik 2y ago
    do you remember a time when the republicans were even keeled and tempered and the democrats kept calling them hitler, nazis, facists, and so on? I certainly remember. The only way to counter this message is to stop with the hate speech. Like the parent above said. Even independents are tired of it now. Of course likely the left will again ignore the warnings and continue on so I’m quite anxious to see what 2026 and 2028 bring.
    - philistine 2y ago
      I have no clue what you're talking about? Did Gore call Bush a fascist? Obama? Ultimately, I see the world this way: people want good things for others. Most people who voted for Trump aren't directly fascists. Trump himself I wouldn't even qualify as a fascist. But he espouses fascistic policies. Immigrants polluting the blood of America, stuff like that, those are fascist ways of talking about immigration. So at some point we have to talk about things, and denounce them. And no, Trump himself is not Mussolini. But the shortcut of calling him a fascist is ultimately okay. Same thing with racisms. Most people aren't fundamentally racist, but they'll espouse racist opinions. So they're racist.