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To your point, the Democrats should win every election, especially against Trump. But, they can't get out of their own way. Go all the way back to when the part

To your point, the Democrats should win every election, especially against Trump. But, they can't get out of their own way. Go all the way back to when the party hosed Bernie, and now this time when they were Hiden Biden. While the economic numbers are good, they are mainly good for people with already high economic status like existing home owners and professionals. For example, student loan forgiveness sounds great but then leaves every blue collar worker who didn't go to college wondering WTF are they doing for me? They are giving more money to people who are already ahead. When Musk says pain is coming, many of Trumps supporters are happy because they are already in pain and want to see those benefitting feel some of that pain. Then they go and overplay their hands with social issues. I didn't see it at the time, but all of the DEI rollbacks we've been seeing over the past year or so should have been a signal. One of the middle of the road people on TV last night mentioned he had friends who tried to avoid interacting with people at work because they were afraid of saying something offensive. And these were likely center left people. I have had similar discussions with even my most progressive friends. The almost refusal to message young men is also a problem. Most Americans want legal immigration, but the Democrats took too long to do something and then Trump was able to kill the bill last minute. It looked like the Democrats wanted to simply ignore it until they no longer could. There are more, but I think these are some of the big Democrat self owns.

creato 2y ago
> Most Americans want legal immigration, but the Democrats took too long to do something and then Trump was able to kill the bill last minute. It looked like the Democrats wanted to simply ignore it until they no longer could. You forgot the part where they claimed their hands were tied, then finally did something about it 8 months before the election.
- matwood 2y ago
  Yes, completely dropped the ball on an issue they could have addressed head on.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    Biden introduced a bill for border security on the first day of his administration, GOP nuked it. Wasn’t ignored.
    - 15155 2y ago
      Automatically allowing a specific quantity of millions of illegal immigrants as a "compromise" isn't "border security."
      - tzs 2y ago
        The Senate passed a bipartisan bill earlier this year that had almost everything Republicans have asked for. The House wouldn't even consider it.
        15155 2y ago
        Did you read it?
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        https://youtu.be/oZw7xijmeGM?t=89 https://youtu.be/oZw7xijmeGM?t=89 Lindsay Graham did! "Everybody who comes on this floor and says our border is broken. We should do something about it. You're absolutely right. And unfortunately, we didn't get there. President Trump opposed the Senate bill."
- apinstein 2y ago
  It’s fascinating how no one mentions that Trump didn’t pass comprehensive immigration legislation during his first term despite it being core to his platform. This issue is a mess and has been kicked down the road for literal decades at this point. Maybe finally it will get passed…
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    He seems quite literally incapable of a “comprehensive” solution to anything. Every solution was the simple one that had the predictable unintended consequences. E.g. on immigration he prevented courts from deferring certain deportation cases, which meant high-risk immigrants stayed in the country for longer.
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      > He seems quite literally incapable of a “comprehensive” solution to anything. Every solution was the simple one that had the predictable unintended consequences. That is because the result doesn't matter, not in "starve the beast" [1] cycle politics - it used to be mostly about money but the model can be used also for general politics. The playbook is: 1. side A rise to power claiming "issue X must be solved by doing Y" (all while knowing that doing Y is useless or counterproductive, but the voter base doesn't care - be it immigration or the defunding of healthcare or whatever) 2. The consequences hit delayed, when the term is at its end and the competitor B takes over (usually in US political cycles every 8 years, but these days it seems like the ping-pong is accelerating) 3. That leaves an opportunity for side A to constantly barge in from the side "look at issue X, vote for us next time and we'll fix it (for realsies this time!)" 4. Side A wins the next election. When it comes to anything budget related, replace the campaigning slogan with "look at issue X, it is clear that the government is incapable of doing anything about that issue, let us privatise it". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        This is all true but I actually don’t think Trump knows his solutions won’t solve these problems. I think he’s actually a simple-minded man who’s saying the simple solutions he thinks will work because he hasn’t ever thought about the problem. I mean he came into power and proudly declared he had never heard of NATO before running (!!) but was brought up to speed in ~2min (!!). That’s who he is.
noobermin 2y ago
There was no student loan forgiveness.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  They tried extremely hard to do it though, and wasted a lot of political capital on the issue. The fact that they tried so hard and couldn't get it done is a good example of what the GP was talking about.
  - noobermin 2y ago
    It's almost as if they're premise is invalid then. This is a lot like liberals complaining about things Trump didn't do.
  - intended 2y ago
    I mean, you can “waste” capital on anything, if the other team is going to demonize whatever you do. Obamacare was based on Romneycare, and Romney had to disown it. Let’s not have discussions on things that dont happen. There is nothing the dems can do which wont be spun into harm by the republican side of the media sphere.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      That goes both ways too. I also don't find political talking points about the other side couldn't do particularly intriguing, but the Democrats did have a field day in 2019/2020 pointing out how little Trump actually did with regards to building a wall. The most annoying part is that almost every time with an issue that couldn't be done, it should have been clear from the beginning. The idea of the government vacuuming up all (or most) student debt seems completely untenable right out of the gate, just like the idea that we would be able to build a physical wall across out entire southern border and make Mexico pay for it. Its lazy politics all the way around. And that lazy politics wastes plenty of tax dollars and distracts everyone from issues actually worth talking about.
      - 2y ago
mschuster91 2y ago
> Then they go and overplay their hands with social issues. I didn't see it at the time, but all of the DEI rollbacks we've been seeing over the past year or so should have been a signal. Yeah, a signal of large players in economy preparing themselves for a Trump victory - the begin of which was Meta unbanning Trump and the culmination of which was Bezos banning the WaPo endorsement. Big Business doesn't care about any values, all it cares about is money, and so it prepared for Trump possibly taking over again in time and getting into good terms with him.
stillold 2y ago
"They are giving more money to people who are already ahead." They did that three times in Trump administration. Resulting in the largest deficit increase ever... The pain ahead is realizing China is the new superpower. Tawain won't make it to 2028.
- matwood 2y ago
  IIRC, Trump gave it to everyone whether they needed it or not. Perhaps there were more that I’m forgetting. But people who perceive themselves at the bottom rung (and are told they are by media and sometimes dems), will see it as unfair if people perceived higher up get something extra. Of course the super rich are going to get themselves tons of benefits, but that remains in the abstract for most. Trump may get lucky for the time being on China. They are struggling economically and may not have the desire to pick a fight right now. IMO, countries bordering Russia are under a more immediate threat.
  - wholinator2 2y ago
    PPP loan fraud disproportionately benefited already wealthy people who both had the means to navigate the bureaucracy and the lack of morals to steal.

creato 2y ago

> Most Americans want legal immigration, but the Democrats took too long to do something and then Trump was able to kill the bill last minute. It looked like the Democrats wanted to simply ignore it until they no longer could. You forgot the part where they claimed their hands were tied, then finally did something about it 8 months before the election.

matwood 2y ago
Yes, completely dropped the ball on an issue they could have addressed head on.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  Biden introduced a bill for border security on the first day of his administration, GOP nuked it. Wasn’t ignored.
  - 15155 2y ago
    Automatically allowing a specific quantity of millions of illegal immigrants as a "compromise" isn't "border security."
    - tzs 2y ago
      The Senate passed a bipartisan bill earlier this year that had almost everything Republicans have asked for. The House wouldn't even consider it.
      - 15155 2y ago
        Did you read it?
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        https://youtu.be/oZw7xijmeGM?t=89 https://youtu.be/oZw7xijmeGM?t=89 Lindsay Graham did! "Everybody who comes on this floor and says our border is broken. We should do something about it. You're absolutely right. And unfortunately, we didn't get there. President Trump opposed the Senate bill."
apinstein 2y ago
It’s fascinating how no one mentions that Trump didn’t pass comprehensive immigration legislation during his first term despite it being core to his platform. This issue is a mess and has been kicked down the road for literal decades at this point. Maybe finally it will get passed…
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  He seems quite literally incapable of a “comprehensive” solution to anything. Every solution was the simple one that had the predictable unintended consequences. E.g. on immigration he prevented courts from deferring certain deportation cases, which meant high-risk immigrants stayed in the country for longer.
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > He seems quite literally incapable of a “comprehensive” solution to anything. Every solution was the simple one that had the predictable unintended consequences. That is because the result doesn't matter, not in "starve the beast" [1] cycle politics - it used to be mostly about money but the model can be used also for general politics. The playbook is: 1. side A rise to power claiming "issue X must be solved by doing Y" (all while knowing that doing Y is useless or counterproductive, but the voter base doesn't care - be it immigration or the defunding of healthcare or whatever) 2. The consequences hit delayed, when the term is at its end and the competitor B takes over (usually in US political cycles every 8 years, but these days it seems like the ping-pong is accelerating) 3. That leaves an opportunity for side A to constantly barge in from the side "look at issue X, vote for us next time and we'll fix it (for realsies this time!)" 4. Side A wins the next election. When it comes to anything budget related, replace the campaigning slogan with "look at issue X, it is clear that the government is incapable of doing anything about that issue, let us privatise it". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      This is all true but I actually don’t think Trump knows his solutions won’t solve these problems. I think he’s actually a simple-minded man who’s saying the simple solutions he thinks will work because he hasn’t ever thought about the problem. I mean he came into power and proudly declared he had never heard of NATO before running (!!) but was brought up to speed in ~2min (!!). That’s who he is.

noobermin 2y ago

There was no student loan forgiveness.

_heimdall 2y ago
They tried extremely hard to do it though, and wasted a lot of political capital on the issue. The fact that they tried so hard and couldn't get it done is a good example of what the GP was talking about.
- noobermin 2y ago
  It's almost as if they're premise is invalid then. This is a lot like liberals complaining about things Trump didn't do.
- intended 2y ago
  I mean, you can “waste” capital on anything, if the other team is going to demonize whatever you do. Obamacare was based on Romneycare, and Romney had to disown it. Let’s not have discussions on things that dont happen. There is nothing the dems can do which wont be spun into harm by the republican side of the media sphere.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    That goes both ways too. I also don't find political talking points about the other side couldn't do particularly intriguing, but the Democrats did have a field day in 2019/2020 pointing out how little Trump actually did with regards to building a wall. The most annoying part is that almost every time with an issue that couldn't be done, it should have been clear from the beginning. The idea of the government vacuuming up all (or most) student debt seems completely untenable right out of the gate, just like the idea that we would be able to build a physical wall across out entire southern border and make Mexico pay for it. Its lazy politics all the way around. And that lazy politics wastes plenty of tax dollars and distracts everyone from issues actually worth talking about.
    - 2y ago

mschuster91 2y ago

> Then they go and overplay their hands with social issues. I didn't see it at the time, but all of the DEI rollbacks we've been seeing over the past year or so should have been a signal. Yeah, a signal of large players in economy preparing themselves for a Trump victory - the begin of which was Meta unbanning Trump and the culmination of which was Bezos banning the WaPo endorsement. Big Business doesn't care about any values, all it cares about is money, and so it prepared for Trump possibly taking over again in time and getting into good terms with him.

stillold 2y ago

"They are giving more money to people who are already ahead." They did that three times in Trump administration. Resulting in the largest deficit increase ever... The pain ahead is realizing China is the new superpower. Tawain won't make it to 2028.

matwood 2y ago
IIRC, Trump gave it to everyone whether they needed it or not. Perhaps there were more that I’m forgetting. But people who perceive themselves at the bottom rung (and are told they are by media and sometimes dems), will see it as unfair if people perceived higher up get something extra. Of course the super rich are going to get themselves tons of benefits, but that remains in the abstract for most. Trump may get lucky for the time being on China. They are struggling economically and may not have the desire to pick a fight right now. IMO, countries bordering Russia are under a more immediate threat.
- wholinator2 2y ago
  PPP loan fraud disproportionately benefited already wealthy people who both had the means to navigate the bureaucracy and the lack of morals to steal.