6 ms·

> The virus is also responsible for a large share of other cancers, including anal cancer, penile cancer, vulval cancer, vaginal cancer, and some head and neck

by Qem 2y ago

> The virus is also responsible for a large share of other cancers, including anal cancer, penile cancer, vulval cancer, vaginal cancer, and some head and neck cancers. It would greatly reduce other types of cancer too. Men also benefit from it. Unfortunately the way campaigns market it causes many people to think it benefits ladies only.

yieldcrv 2y ago
I took one look at the initial FDA approvals and paid out of pocket for this vaccine. A cursory understanding of the virus, insurance, and the age bounding of getting vaccinated would lead anyone to the same conclusion. Unless they are allergic to the word “vaccine”. Basically, the vaccines dont work with prior exposure, and there is no test to know if men have been exposed. So thats why there is no focus on men, and why initially men were only approved for use if they were under 26 years old, based purely on probabilities they havent been exposed yet. This is a problem for insurance companies. Also at one point in time, it wasnt linked to cancers affecting men, and men were seen only as carriers. Now it seems any area of flesh exposed to HPV strains are at risk of cancer there. The age of male coverage has been expanded to like mid-40s by now. The abstinence crowd worried about anything that makes people feel safer engaging in sex will get you killed.
- carlmr 2y ago
  >Basically, the vaccines dont work with prior exposure, and there is no test to know if men have been exposed. So thats why there is no focus on men, and why initially men were only approved for use if they were under 26 years old, based purely on probabilities they havent been exposed yet. The vaccine (Gardasil) protects against 9 strains. Even if you've been exposed to 1 strain, it protects against the other 8 strains. >Also at one point in time, it wasnt linked to cancers affecting men, and men were seen only as carriers. Now it seems any area of flesh exposed to HPV strains are at risk of cancer there. Even if it didn't do anything in men, it's stupid not to vaccinate as many people as possible to get herd immunity. We understand this for a hundred years now with other vaccines, why not this one? Apart from that it's not a bad guess to think that if it causes one cancer it will be causing other types of cancer as well. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. >The age of male coverage has been expanded to like mid-40s by now. Sadly in Germany it's still only for younger men. And older men weren't offered the vaccine at all when they were younger, so they never got the offer. I paid out of pocket for it, but it's still stupid that we're still putting a part of the population at unnecessary risk for cancer, and also decreasing herd immunity at the same time. Lack of HPV vaccination is just a symptom of lack of understanding of science and statistics in politics.
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    >Lack of HPV vaccination is just a symptom of lack of understanding of science and statistics in politics. At some point it stops being about science or understanding and starts being wholly about politics. There's a lot more "well these demographics or institutions f-ing hate me so I'm sure as shit not taking their word for anything" going around than there was a decade ago.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > There's a lot more "well these demographics or institutions f-ing hate me so I'm sure as shit not taking their word for anything" This would be fine. It goes further: not only rejecting the institutions, but concluding adversely based on their advocating for something.
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    Just wondering how much did you pay for it? Here in Spain I also can't get it in my 40s and it costs 800 euro, which is a lot on a Spanish wage. And the doctors say there isn't much point because I've probably been exposed already (considering number of partners that's likely). And then the effectiveness is supposed to be massively reduced. Still, if it were 200€ I'd do it. There's only one place here where I can get it so I wonder if it's cheaper elsewhere.
    - carlmr 2y ago
      >Just wondering how much did you pay for it? 180€ per injection. The normal schedule is 3 injections. (first, 1 month, 6 month). However I checked and NHS (UK) did a study on it that showed a single injection provides the same protection as 3, so they changed their injection schedule to single injection for people under 25, and 2 injections (first + 6-24 months) for over 25s due to the expectation that older immune systems take longer to adapt. The German (StIKo) recommendation is still 3, but I prefer listening to the NHS here because they have been more scientific about this in the past and seem to be actively studying this stuff. I asked my doctor and they said I can pick the schedule I want, since it's not insured anyway. So I picked the two injection schedule. So that makes 360€ for me. If the NHS study holds you could probably pick a single injection and already have most or all of the protection. I picked two because I figured it's still recommended for my age group that way. >And the doctors say there isn't much point because I've probably been exposed already (considering number of partners that's likely). My doctor said the same, but the NHS says it's still useful from their studies. Especially since Gardasil protects against 9 variants. It's unlikely you've been exposed to all 9 variants. I am not a doctor, so I can only tell you what I've found helpful in making my decision.
- theGnuMe 2y ago
  >Basically, the vaccines dont work with prior exposure The FDA recommends it for males under 45 now. It does prevent infection from new exposures. In time I bet that we will find it reduces cancer incidence even in those infected before vaccination. Those studies will take years to complete and it is too early to tell. When the vaccine was first available, it was rationed, and the highest priority was for young girls before they become sexually active since they have the highest benefit.
- crossroadsguy 2y ago
  I had wart on my heel once - kinda annoyingly stubborn which finally removed/subdued by laser removal (nitrogen therapy did jacks). That’s HPV, right? And guess once inside you, it stays inside you, right?
  - bluGill 2y ago
    There are over 100 hpv strlins. Warts are one yes, butnot the strain in question (though there are reports the vaccine helps for warts too I have not seen science verify that)
  - tialaramex 2y ago
    HPV is a family of viruses. There are dozens and the vaccine targets, I think, nine. So, that probably was HPV, but it probably was not one of the members of the family which the vaccine targets, the vaccine is focused on the sexually transmitted variants, since these are associated with Cervical cancer in particular, and several other nasty cancers, plus the genital warts.
- Nifty3929 2y ago
  >> Basically, the vaccines dont work with prior exposure This is a beef I have with a lot of medical thinking: that if it doesn't work it would be bad to do it. But that's not true at all - many things are good to do, if there is some chance it will help, even if most of the time it does nothing. You do have to weigh other negatives like cost, pain, hassle, or unknown side effects. But in general - if it might make me better and won't make me worse - then sign me up!
  - pbhjpbhj 2y ago
    Every vaccine (happy to get counter evidence) has negative side-effects, every injection is a risk. When you're injection multiple millions of your population on the off-chance it might help then you're going to get some very sick, or dead people. At 200€ a time (plus administration costs, plus lost work hours of those you're injecting), for millions of people that's also a lot of wasted funds that could be put into medicines that are known to be effective for the people they're treating. Why, for medicines that are highly available, that a doctor considers to be low risk, a sane adult can't just elect to pay for and take a medicine, that I am not sure of.
    - Nifty3929 2y ago
      Yep - I'm not saying society OWES me the treatment - just that I should be able to get it if I want and am willing to pay for it. I agree that we don't want all of society to be collectively paying for something that has large, clear costs, but dubious efficacy. Then again, COVID...
pyuser583 2y ago
Last I checked it wasn’t available for men.
- bertylicious 2y ago
  What do you mean not available? It's the same vaccine for men and women AFAIK. Or do you mean it's usually not paid for by health insurance? I (male) don't remember if I had to pay for the vaccine myself when I got vaccinated, which to me indicates that it wasn't that expensive.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    I'm not a doctor nor particularly fond of them, but as I understand it older men who have been sexually active are likely already exposed, so doctors won't prescribe the vaccine nor will insurance cover the cost. I don't know if it's something you can just walk in to a clinic and ask for and pay cash. The big push lately has been to get kids vaccinated before they are teens, which mine (all males) were. I have not had this vaccine, but at my age and being married any new sexual contacts are pretty unlikely so not sure there's any benefit to me either way.
- trescenzi 2y ago
  I’m getting my course of it now. I’m a ~30 year old man in the US. Maybe other countries haven’t expanded access? My doctor recommended it to me and it was covered by insurance. They said while it cannot protect you from previous exposure it’s pretty wide so it’s unlikely I have yet to encounter every HPV variation it protects against.
- itishappy 2y ago
  You should check again! > The CDC suggests catch-up HPV vaccinations for all people through age 26 who aren't fully vaccinated. > The FDA approved the use of Gardasil 9 for males and females ages 9 to 45. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hpv-infection/in-depth/hpv-vaccine/art-20047292 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hpv-infection... > HPV vaccine is recommended for routine vaccination at age 11 or 12 years. (Vaccination can be started at age 9.) > ACIP also recommends vaccination for everyone through age 26 years if not adequately vaccinated when younger. HPV vaccination is given as a series of either two or three doses, depending on age at initial vaccination. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/hpv/hcp/recommendations.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/hpv/hcp/recommendations.htm...
TZubiri 2y ago
Well since the probabilities of infection is magnified by lesions, and those occur more often in the receptive partner, it will disproportionately affect women and gay men. As is the case for stds in general. The extent to which these vaccines would be helpful to mean is usually to avoid hurting women. Which is not minor at all, I would definitely get one for that reason alone. But I wouldn't be concerned for personal risks.
Ponet1945 2y ago
> Unfortunately the way campaigns market it causes many people to think it benefits ladies only. That's a pretty diplomatic way to say that they pretty much don't care about men being affected. In my region the vaccine is free for women but men have to pay despite >40% of cancers caused being in men and nobody even informs you of that.

by Qem 2y ago

yieldcrv 2y ago

I took one look at the initial FDA approvals and paid out of pocket for this vaccine. A cursory understanding of the virus, insurance, and the age bounding of getting vaccinated would lead anyone to the same conclusion. Unless they are allergic to the word “vaccine”. Basically, the vaccines dont work with prior exposure, and there is no test to know if men have been exposed. So thats why there is no focus on men, and why initially men were only approved for use if they were under 26 years old, based purely on probabilities they havent been exposed yet. This is a problem for insurance companies. Also at one point in time, it wasnt linked to cancers affecting men, and men were seen only as carriers. Now it seems any area of flesh exposed to HPV strains are at risk of cancer there. The age of male coverage has been expanded to like mid-40s by now. The abstinence crowd worried about anything that makes people feel safer engaging in sex will get you killed.

carlmr 2y ago
>Basically, the vaccines dont work with prior exposure, and there is no test to know if men have been exposed. So thats why there is no focus on men, and why initially men were only approved for use if they were under 26 years old, based purely on probabilities they havent been exposed yet. The vaccine (Gardasil) protects against 9 strains. Even if you've been exposed to 1 strain, it protects against the other 8 strains. >Also at one point in time, it wasnt linked to cancers affecting men, and men were seen only as carriers. Now it seems any area of flesh exposed to HPV strains are at risk of cancer there. Even if it didn't do anything in men, it's stupid not to vaccinate as many people as possible to get herd immunity. We understand this for a hundred years now with other vaccines, why not this one? Apart from that it's not a bad guess to think that if it causes one cancer it will be causing other types of cancer as well. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. >The age of male coverage has been expanded to like mid-40s by now. Sadly in Germany it's still only for younger men. And older men weren't offered the vaccine at all when they were younger, so they never got the offer. I paid out of pocket for it, but it's still stupid that we're still putting a part of the population at unnecessary risk for cancer, and also decreasing herd immunity at the same time. Lack of HPV vaccination is just a symptom of lack of understanding of science and statistics in politics.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  >Lack of HPV vaccination is just a symptom of lack of understanding of science and statistics in politics. At some point it stops being about science or understanding and starts being wholly about politics. There's a lot more "well these demographics or institutions f-ing hate me so I'm sure as shit not taking their word for anything" going around than there was a decade ago.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > There's a lot more "well these demographics or institutions f-ing hate me so I'm sure as shit not taking their word for anything" This would be fine. It goes further: not only rejecting the institutions, but concluding adversely based on their advocating for something.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  Just wondering how much did you pay for it? Here in Spain I also can't get it in my 40s and it costs 800 euro, which is a lot on a Spanish wage. And the doctors say there isn't much point because I've probably been exposed already (considering number of partners that's likely). And then the effectiveness is supposed to be massively reduced. Still, if it were 200€ I'd do it. There's only one place here where I can get it so I wonder if it's cheaper elsewhere.
  - carlmr 2y ago
    >Just wondering how much did you pay for it? 180€ per injection. The normal schedule is 3 injections. (first, 1 month, 6 month). However I checked and NHS (UK) did a study on it that showed a single injection provides the same protection as 3, so they changed their injection schedule to single injection for people under 25, and 2 injections (first + 6-24 months) for over 25s due to the expectation that older immune systems take longer to adapt. The German (StIKo) recommendation is still 3, but I prefer listening to the NHS here because they have been more scientific about this in the past and seem to be actively studying this stuff. I asked my doctor and they said I can pick the schedule I want, since it's not insured anyway. So I picked the two injection schedule. So that makes 360€ for me. If the NHS study holds you could probably pick a single injection and already have most or all of the protection. I picked two because I figured it's still recommended for my age group that way. >And the doctors say there isn't much point because I've probably been exposed already (considering number of partners that's likely). My doctor said the same, but the NHS says it's still useful from their studies. Especially since Gardasil protects against 9 variants. It's unlikely you've been exposed to all 9 variants. I am not a doctor, so I can only tell you what I've found helpful in making my decision.
theGnuMe 2y ago
>Basically, the vaccines dont work with prior exposure The FDA recommends it for males under 45 now. It does prevent infection from new exposures. In time I bet that we will find it reduces cancer incidence even in those infected before vaccination. Those studies will take years to complete and it is too early to tell. When the vaccine was first available, it was rationed, and the highest priority was for young girls before they become sexually active since they have the highest benefit.
crossroadsguy 2y ago
I had wart on my heel once - kinda annoyingly stubborn which finally removed/subdued by laser removal (nitrogen therapy did jacks). That’s HPV, right? And guess once inside you, it stays inside you, right?
- bluGill 2y ago
  There are over 100 hpv strlins. Warts are one yes, butnot the strain in question (though there are reports the vaccine helps for warts too I have not seen science verify that)
- tialaramex 2y ago
  HPV is a family of viruses. There are dozens and the vaccine targets, I think, nine. So, that probably was HPV, but it probably was not one of the members of the family which the vaccine targets, the vaccine is focused on the sexually transmitted variants, since these are associated with Cervical cancer in particular, and several other nasty cancers, plus the genital warts.
Nifty3929 2y ago
>> Basically, the vaccines dont work with prior exposure This is a beef I have with a lot of medical thinking: that if it doesn't work it would be bad to do it. But that's not true at all - many things are good to do, if there is some chance it will help, even if most of the time it does nothing. You do have to weigh other negatives like cost, pain, hassle, or unknown side effects. But in general - if it might make me better and won't make me worse - then sign me up!
- pbhjpbhj 2y ago
  Every vaccine (happy to get counter evidence) has negative side-effects, every injection is a risk. When you're injection multiple millions of your population on the off-chance it might help then you're going to get some very sick, or dead people. At 200€ a time (plus administration costs, plus lost work hours of those you're injecting), for millions of people that's also a lot of wasted funds that could be put into medicines that are known to be effective for the people they're treating. Why, for medicines that are highly available, that a doctor considers to be low risk, a sane adult can't just elect to pay for and take a medicine, that I am not sure of.
  - Nifty3929 2y ago
    Yep - I'm not saying society OWES me the treatment - just that I should be able to get it if I want and am willing to pay for it. I agree that we don't want all of society to be collectively paying for something that has large, clear costs, but dubious efficacy. Then again, COVID...

pyuser583 2y ago

Last I checked it wasn’t available for men.

bertylicious 2y ago
What do you mean not available? It's the same vaccine for men and women AFAIK. Or do you mean it's usually not paid for by health insurance? I (male) don't remember if I had to pay for the vaccine myself when I got vaccinated, which to me indicates that it wasn't that expensive.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  I'm not a doctor nor particularly fond of them, but as I understand it older men who have been sexually active are likely already exposed, so doctors won't prescribe the vaccine nor will insurance cover the cost. I don't know if it's something you can just walk in to a clinic and ask for and pay cash. The big push lately has been to get kids vaccinated before they are teens, which mine (all males) were. I have not had this vaccine, but at my age and being married any new sexual contacts are pretty unlikely so not sure there's any benefit to me either way.
trescenzi 2y ago
I’m getting my course of it now. I’m a ~30 year old man in the US. Maybe other countries haven’t expanded access? My doctor recommended it to me and it was covered by insurance. They said while it cannot protect you from previous exposure it’s pretty wide so it’s unlikely I have yet to encounter every HPV variation it protects against.
itishappy 2y ago
You should check again! > The CDC suggests catch-up HPV vaccinations for all people through age 26 who aren't fully vaccinated. > The FDA approved the use of Gardasil 9 for males and females ages 9 to 45. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hpv-infection/in-depth/hpv-vaccine/art-20047292 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hpv-infection... > HPV vaccine is recommended for routine vaccination at age 11 or 12 years. (Vaccination can be started at age 9.) > ACIP also recommends vaccination for everyone through age 26 years if not adequately vaccinated when younger. HPV vaccination is given as a series of either two or three doses, depending on age at initial vaccination. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/hpv/hcp/recommendations.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/hpv/hcp/recommendations.htm...

TZubiri 2y ago

Well since the probabilities of infection is magnified by lesions, and those occur more often in the receptive partner, it will disproportionately affect women and gay men. As is the case for stds in general. The extent to which these vaccines would be helpful to mean is usually to avoid hurting women. Which is not minor at all, I would definitely get one for that reason alone. But I wouldn't be concerned for personal risks.

Ponet1945 2y ago

> Unfortunately the way campaigns market it causes many people to think it benefits ladies only. That's a pretty diplomatic way to say that they pretty much don't care about men being affected. In my region the vaccine is free for women but men have to pay despite >40% of cancers caused being in men and nobody even informs you of that.