7 ms·

Machines of Loving Grace

233 points by greenie_beans 2y ago

_yb2s 2y ago
A chillingly moving article that reminds me of what is important in life... to want to spend time with those I love that still live, and to remember those that don't. As an aside- I'm also an academic and resent this sudden nonsense push to 'embrace AI' from people that have no clue what it even is. Some of my research is close enough to be getting renewed interest and funding from this... but I find it offensive the my same research ideas weren't interesting on their own merits a few years ago but only suddenly are now because they involve 'AI.' It suggests a frivolous trend following unbecoming of scientists. I don't know what this author researches, but she deeply understands why technology needs to be aligned with human interests, and how to make sure it is. That seems to me something academic departments interested in AI research need now more than ever. I've also always found this poem darkly captivating, because it imagines that positive humanizing technology will be possible but itself seems like a vision that would be infantilizing, and the author leaves it unclear on if they notice this or not, and if it is serious or dark satire.
- ForOldHack 2y ago
  Utterly painful and deeply humiliating gynocology - which I would guess every women begrudgingly deals with is not a product of AI, but of MS. Medical Stupidity. Certainally a place the marketing department deems 'unprofitable'. I hope her inbox is filled with sympathy, and promises to destroy the dehumanizing parts of women's health.
  - ForOldHack 2y ago
    We think nk in terms of modern medicine, when it took 150 years for surgeons to wash their hands. Now it's a common place assumption, while not washing hands is ancient history. Let's have women's health care advance much much faster.
- drcwpl 2y ago
  It is such a meaningful piece, deeply disturbing, yet a strong reminder to be with those we love - and yes to really 'be'. I would posit that it is the people using the technology that also need to be empathetic and ensure the use is not disturbing.
- oersted 2y ago
  As a founder and engineer primarily focused on AI right now, it's strange to see all of this going on. Neither I nor anyone in my immediate bubble go along with the fanaticism, it's an exciting new tool with lots of potential, but a tool among many nonetheless. I want to prevent everyone else from getting distracted by the shininess of it all, because the world really needs all these scientists and organizations to keep progressing the substantial work they are best at. The recent Nobel in physics was the perfect example, and I think HN echoed the general feeling that we mightily respect the field, probably above what we are doing, and that it is an outrage for it to get overshadowed like that. It's also weird to see how not being focused on AI is disrupting so many people, but being focused on AI doesn't help you that much either. It is definitely not the trump-card people think it is with investors, and even less with the market. Sometimes it is better not to emphasize it because it cheapens the whole thing! Among other things, people (understandably) do not understand the spectrum of possibilities for using LLMs, in their minds it all boils down to asking ChatGPT, which is obviously not very substantive. At the end of the day, it's all just technical details, people want results and value.
  - itronitron 2y ago
    >> not being focused on AI is disrupting so many people What are you talking about?
    - jakewil 2y ago
      I think they are referring to the author of the article losing their job because they weren't focused on AI: > the Dean of my college told me...that I should look for long-term academic employment elsewhere. My research and practice was not centered enough on “AI” and “emerging technology” to fit within the institution...
      - itronitron 2y ago
        Thanks, your comment prompted me to actually read the article which I had originally avoided due to the title.
- jerf 2y ago
  "As an aside- I'm also an academic and resent this sudden nonsense push to 'embrace AI' from people that have no clue what it even is." Follow the money. If you're used to "follow the money" and have done it a lot, you may find this money trail doesn't lead to the usual places. But look at the size of the AI bubble. There's a lot money available to fund PR and push "influencers" to run around telling people that they need to get on board or get left behind... because if people don't get on board that AI bubble is going to pop. And I think people underestimate the amount of control a donation to an educational institution gets the donor, unless they are very cynical. I do not claim or believe that "AI" is useless. I do firmly believe that on top of the foundation of useful stuff that it can do, some of it if anything underutilized and understudied (I agree with an article in HN a few days back that embeddings are really underutilized and studied versus all this generative stuff which is a lot less interesting than meets the eye), there is a staggeringly enormous bubble. And with that bubble, a lot of well-resourced people motivated to keep it inflated, as there always is. You'd think by 2024, the techno-fetishist "If it's NEW technology it's GOOD technology!" would be dying down in the general consciousness. Tech is not automatically good and helpful just by virtue of being good.
alsetmusic 2y ago
> Yet, I am shocked when AI does not stop Outlook Messenger from bursting confetti across my desktop in response to the Congratulations reply I receive when HR misreads my email about both adding and removing our late son from my health insurance. Echoes of Facebook showing people “memories” (photos) of their deceased children on their bday. This is one of the saddest stories I’ve read in a bit.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- space_oddity 2y ago
  It’s a painful reminder of how technology often lacks the sensitivity
  - tartoran 2y ago
    The technology can be pushed into any direction, it's just a medium for us. It could be made with sensitivity, customizability, accessibility and so on. But I highly agree that it's lacking in many areas. My solution is to scale back the tech in my life and use it as a tools whenever I need it.
    - space_oddity 2y ago
      Scaling back and using tech more intentionally is a smart approach, it’s easy to let it take over rather than serve us
  - jonas21 2y ago
    To be fair, it was a human in HR who didn't read the email carefully and replied with "congratulations". An LLM probably could have warned them before they sent the email, if only it had been integrated into their email client.
- LennyHenrysNuts 2y ago
  aaand that's enough internet for me today.
swyx 2y ago
brutal story. for those who were equally confused this post seems to have the same title as but is unrelated to Dario Amodei's recent https://darioamodei.com/machines-of-loving-grace https://darioamodei.com/machines-of-loving-grace - is perhaps a nice/bittersweet reality check on how our designs often fall short of our ambitions.
- austinjp 2y ago
  Which in turn references the 1967 poem by Richard Brautigan: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of_Loving_Grace https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines...
  - getwiththeprog 2y ago
    I had wondered where this saying came from, thank you for the reference. here is the direct link to the poem. https://brautiganarchives.xyz/machines.html#28 https://brautiganarchives.xyz/machines.html#28
    - DonaldFisk 2y ago
      Also the name of a documentary series by Adam Curtis: https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/all-watched-over-by-machines-of-loving-grace/ https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/all-watched-over-by-machines...
    - Nition 2y ago
      The full poem is also in the article. (sorry to be That Person, but I'm really hoping Hacker News doesn't eventually become like Reddit where the comments are almost completely divorced from the content of the article).
      - TeMPOraL 2y ago
        It sometimes happens, but I'd say it's for the best. Often the greatest value (sometimes the only value) a submitted link has is as a discussion prompt.
chevman 2y ago
“Boo, Forever", also by Richard Brautigan Spinning like a ghost on the bottom of a top, I'm haunted by all the space that I will live without you.
brunorsini 2y ago
Adam Curtis made a fantastic documentary on the darker side of our relationship with technology. I don't agree with all of his points, but it's still a great watch. From Wikipedia: Curtis argues that computers have failed to liberate humanity, and instead have "distorted and simplified our view of the world around us". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of_Loving_Grace_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_o...
- eru 2y ago
  Alas, that 'documentary' is long on insinuation and short on facts. As is typical of that auteur.
  - dijksterhuis 2y ago
    yeah, but the soundtrack is brilliant. so… /s
    - eru 2y ago
      Oh, when viewed as works of art, they are quite interesting.
      - brunorsini 2y ago
        I agree. Curtis consistently makes films that are a lot more about opinion and interpretation than anything else. He is not bad with facts, but he does have a tendency to present the viewer with an avalanche of data points... only to later express what is basically his opinion, often not even directly linked to the facts that have just been presented. With that in mind, I still find his opinions interesting, original and provocative. Also, his films have some of the coolest imagery ever — if I recall correctly he used to work at the BBC, dealing with their archives.
- djtango 2y ago
  My main takeaway from that series was the anecdotes about the communes living in geodesic domes who operated under a hierarchy-less system but all of them allegedly imploded due to a common mechanism: In a community that has no explicit rules, implicit rules emerge. Power accumulates quietly to the people who know the rules and can bend them often. In those situations the powerless are even more vulnerable to the powerful because of the lack of an explicit power structure with rules that would usually require checks and balances in order for people to opt into the system.
swayvil 2y ago
Machines and dreamstuff are connected. Wherever you find a machine you find a dream of what it's for and how it works. Dream lovers are invariably machine lovers. A dream lover lives entirely in dreams. To the degree that he absolutely cannot avoid interacting with reality, he does it through machines. So that's something I think about.
unit149 2y ago
> of a cybernetic forest > filled with pines and electronics > where deer stroll peacefully past computers > as if they were flowers This image of an electronic garden - leptospirosis from cat sitting - has flooded nature with server calls. Now, a tree does not grow of its own accord, but in the structure of a system. Furthering its seed, the redwood pollinates through incineration. The technological is constantly in flux.

233 points by greenie_beans 2y ago

A chillingly moving article that reminds me of what is important in life... to want to spend time with those I love that still live, and to remember those that don't. As an aside- I'm also an academic and resent this sudden nonsense push to 'embrace AI' from people that have no clue what it even is. Some of my research is close enough to be getting renewed interest and funding from this... but I find it offensive the my same research ideas weren't interesting on their own merits a few years ago but only suddenly are now because they involve 'AI.' It suggests a frivolous trend following unbecoming of scientists. I don't know what this author researches, but she deeply understands why technology needs to be aligned with human interests, and how to make sure it is. That seems to me something academic departments interested in AI research need now more than ever. I've also always found this poem darkly captivating, because it imagines that positive humanizing technology will be possible but itself seems like a vision that would be infantilizing, and the author leaves it unclear on if they notice this or not, and if it is serious or dark satire.

ForOldHack 2y ago
Utterly painful and deeply humiliating gynocology - which I would guess every women begrudgingly deals with is not a product of AI, but of MS. Medical Stupidity. Certainally a place the marketing department deems 'unprofitable'. I hope her inbox is filled with sympathy, and promises to destroy the dehumanizing parts of women's health.
- ForOldHack 2y ago
  We think nk in terms of modern medicine, when it took 150 years for surgeons to wash their hands. Now it's a common place assumption, while not washing hands is ancient history. Let's have women's health care advance much much faster.
drcwpl 2y ago
It is such a meaningful piece, deeply disturbing, yet a strong reminder to be with those we love - and yes to really 'be'. I would posit that it is the people using the technology that also need to be empathetic and ensure the use is not disturbing.
oersted 2y ago
As a founder and engineer primarily focused on AI right now, it's strange to see all of this going on. Neither I nor anyone in my immediate bubble go along with the fanaticism, it's an exciting new tool with lots of potential, but a tool among many nonetheless. I want to prevent everyone else from getting distracted by the shininess of it all, because the world really needs all these scientists and organizations to keep progressing the substantial work they are best at. The recent Nobel in physics was the perfect example, and I think HN echoed the general feeling that we mightily respect the field, probably above what we are doing, and that it is an outrage for it to get overshadowed like that. It's also weird to see how not being focused on AI is disrupting so many people, but being focused on AI doesn't help you that much either. It is definitely not the trump-card people think it is with investors, and even less with the market. Sometimes it is better not to emphasize it because it cheapens the whole thing! Among other things, people (understandably) do not understand the spectrum of possibilities for using LLMs, in their minds it all boils down to asking ChatGPT, which is obviously not very substantive. At the end of the day, it's all just technical details, people want results and value.
- itronitron 2y ago
  >> not being focused on AI is disrupting so many people What are you talking about?
  - jakewil 2y ago
    I think they are referring to the author of the article losing their job because they weren't focused on AI: > the Dean of my college told me...that I should look for long-term academic employment elsewhere. My research and practice was not centered enough on “AI” and “emerging technology” to fit within the institution...
    - itronitron 2y ago
      Thanks, your comment prompted me to actually read the article which I had originally avoided due to the title.
jerf 2y ago
"As an aside- I'm also an academic and resent this sudden nonsense push to 'embrace AI' from people that have no clue what it even is." Follow the money. If you're used to "follow the money" and have done it a lot, you may find this money trail doesn't lead to the usual places. But look at the size of the AI bubble. There's a lot money available to fund PR and push "influencers" to run around telling people that they need to get on board or get left behind... because if people don't get on board that AI bubble is going to pop. And I think people underestimate the amount of control a donation to an educational institution gets the donor, unless they are very cynical. I do not claim or believe that "AI" is useless. I do firmly believe that on top of the foundation of useful stuff that it can do, some of it if anything underutilized and understudied (I agree with an article in HN a few days back that embeddings are really underutilized and studied versus all this generative stuff which is a lot less interesting than meets the eye), there is a staggeringly enormous bubble. And with that bubble, a lot of well-resourced people motivated to keep it inflated, as there always is. You'd think by 2024, the techno-fetishist "If it's NEW technology it's GOOD technology!" would be dying down in the general consciousness. Tech is not automatically good and helpful just by virtue of being good.

alsetmusic 2y ago

> Yet, I am shocked when AI does not stop Outlook Messenger from bursting confetti across my desktop in response to the Congratulations reply I receive when HR misreads my email about both adding and removing our late son from my health insurance. Echoes of Facebook showing people “memories” (photos) of their deceased children on their bday. This is one of the saddest stories I’ve read in a bit.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
space_oddity 2y ago
It’s a painful reminder of how technology often lacks the sensitivity
- tartoran 2y ago
  The technology can be pushed into any direction, it's just a medium for us. It could be made with sensitivity, customizability, accessibility and so on. But I highly agree that it's lacking in many areas. My solution is to scale back the tech in my life and use it as a tools whenever I need it.
  - space_oddity 2y ago
    Scaling back and using tech more intentionally is a smart approach, it’s easy to let it take over rather than serve us
- jonas21 2y ago
  To be fair, it was a human in HR who didn't read the email carefully and replied with "congratulations". An LLM probably could have warned them before they sent the email, if only it had been integrated into their email client.
LennyHenrysNuts 2y ago
aaand that's enough internet for me today.

swyx 2y ago

brutal story. for those who were equally confused this post seems to have the same title as but is unrelated to Dario Amodei's recent https://darioamodei.com/machines-of-loving-grace https://darioamodei.com/machines-of-loving-grace - is perhaps a nice/bittersweet reality check on how our designs often fall short of our ambitions.

austinjp 2y ago
Which in turn references the 1967 poem by Richard Brautigan: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of_Loving_Grace https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines...
- getwiththeprog 2y ago
  I had wondered where this saying came from, thank you for the reference. here is the direct link to the poem. https://brautiganarchives.xyz/machines.html#28 https://brautiganarchives.xyz/machines.html#28
  - DonaldFisk 2y ago
    Also the name of a documentary series by Adam Curtis: https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/all-watched-over-by-machines-of-loving-grace/ https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/all-watched-over-by-machines...
  - Nition 2y ago
    The full poem is also in the article. (sorry to be That Person, but I'm really hoping Hacker News doesn't eventually become like Reddit where the comments are almost completely divorced from the content of the article).
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      It sometimes happens, but I'd say it's for the best. Often the greatest value (sometimes the only value) a submitted link has is as a discussion prompt.

chevman 2y ago

“Boo, Forever", also by Richard Brautigan Spinning like a ghost on the bottom of a top, I'm haunted by all the space that I will live without you.

brunorsini 2y ago

Adam Curtis made a fantastic documentary on the darker side of our relationship with technology. I don't agree with all of his points, but it's still a great watch. From Wikipedia: Curtis argues that computers have failed to liberate humanity, and instead have "distorted and simplified our view of the world around us". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of_Loving_Grace_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_o...

eru 2y ago
Alas, that 'documentary' is long on insinuation and short on facts. As is typical of that auteur.
- dijksterhuis 2y ago
  yeah, but the soundtrack is brilliant. so… /s
  - eru 2y ago
    Oh, when viewed as works of art, they are quite interesting.
    - brunorsini 2y ago
      I agree. Curtis consistently makes films that are a lot more about opinion and interpretation than anything else. He is not bad with facts, but he does have a tendency to present the viewer with an avalanche of data points... only to later express what is basically his opinion, often not even directly linked to the facts that have just been presented. With that in mind, I still find his opinions interesting, original and provocative. Also, his films have some of the coolest imagery ever — if I recall correctly he used to work at the BBC, dealing with their archives.
djtango 2y ago
My main takeaway from that series was the anecdotes about the communes living in geodesic domes who operated under a hierarchy-less system but all of them allegedly imploded due to a common mechanism: In a community that has no explicit rules, implicit rules emerge. Power accumulates quietly to the people who know the rules and can bend them often. In those situations the powerless are even more vulnerable to the powerful because of the lack of an explicit power structure with rules that would usually require checks and balances in order for people to opt into the system.

swayvil 2y ago

Machines and dreamstuff are connected. Wherever you find a machine you find a dream of what it's for and how it works. Dream lovers are invariably machine lovers. A dream lover lives entirely in dreams. To the degree that he absolutely cannot avoid interacting with reality, he does it through machines. So that's something I think about.

unit149 2y ago

> of a cybernetic forest > filled with pines and electronics > where deer stroll peacefully past computers > as if they were flowers This image of an electronic garden - leptospirosis from cat sitting - has flooded nature with server calls. Now, a tree does not grow of its own accord, but in the structure of a system. Furthering its seed, the redwood pollinates through incineration. The technological is constantly in flux.