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> Negotiations between it and the Times hit logjams over things like a “just cause” provision that prevents the company from firing workers unless it’s for some

> Negotiations between it and the Times hit logjams over things like a “just cause” provision that prevents the company from firing workers unless it’s for something like misconduct, as well as pay increases, pay equity, and return-to-office policies, reports the Times. https://www.theverge.com/2024/11/4/24287600/new-york-times-tech-guild-strike-before-presidential-election https://www.theverge.com/2024/11/4/24287600/new-york-times-t... I dunno. It is a negotiation between the union and the company. They might not have prepared much marketing material because they aren’t really selling anything to those of us in the general public, right?

SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
Interesting. I spot checked the Boeing strike, and it does seem like unions often aren't too specific about their demands in public. I guess a lot of stuff that I thought came from unions is actually coming from internal reports like this.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  I know some folks who’ve done union organizing a bit, although I’m personally not that interested in it, so take this with a HUGE grain of salt. But I think appealing to the general public is a tool in the toolset, something they consider, but not an automatic go-to. Ultimately, the NYT tech guild doesn’t actually want the general public to think their boss is a “bad guy,” right? Like, getting the general public to boycott their employer too effectively is a risk to their own paychecks, haha.
  - SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
    That's true, makes perfect sense.
9dev 2y ago
As a foreigner it’s so alien to me that such a provision isn’t mandated by law anyway, and that there isn’t broad support in the population to restrict employers from firing at will… wild.
- gcr 2y ago
  Exactly! US workers have to fight tooth and nail for things that employees can just expect from other countries. That's why strikes like this are such a big deal.
- jdross 2y ago
  because working with poor performing coworkers is soul crushing, and having a bad boss even worse
- chis 2y ago
  An an American it's hard for me to imagine how companies could ever work with universal protections from firing at will. What if you're running a painting business, and there's a downturn in construction. Do you just have to pay people to do nothing, since they haven't done anything wrong and aren't allowed to be fired? Or what if a large company needs to make a strategic pivot and fire some employees to hire others with a different skillset. It seems like economists do consider this to be one of the big reasons why the U.S. economy has grown so much faster than the EU. Hiring in Europe is much riskier, so companies would rather stay small.
  - hamandcheese 2y ago
    In all those cases, it sounds like the company would actually suffer the consequences of their prior mismanagement (compared to today where mostly just employees suffer from bad management decisions). Yes, that means some companies might go under when they could have saved themselves by mass layoffs. I'd be okay with that trade. Yes, that means growth might slow down to more reasonable levels. I'd be okay with that trade. Europe isn't booming economically like the US, but if you've ever traveled there, their quality of life seems perfectly fine, and costs are much lower.
    - phil21 2y ago
      > Europe isn't booming economically like the US This would be an extreme understatement. > but if you've ever traveled there, their quality of life seems perfectly fine I'm not sure if traveling there is much of an indicator of anything. Doing business there over the course of many years might be a very basic table stakes start to get any idea of what is happening. Even then it will have large blind spots. Most folks traveling to Europe are also traveling to the richest parts of the richest countries and ignoring the rest. Inertia is a hell of a drug. For how much longer can western Europe stagnate and continue to fall behind the entire world little by little? There are bright spots, but those seem to becoming fewer and further in between. Talk with the younger generations and you may start to get different answers than you expect. The US system certainly isn't how I'd design things today, but I very much would avoid what the EU is seemingly running headlong into. How much of that has to do with worker protection laws is certainly highly debatable though.
111111IIIIIII 2y ago
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potato3732842 2y ago
> They might not have prepared much marketing material because they aren’t really selling anything to those of us in the general public, right? NYT isn't a highly regulated interstate employer like Boeing or the rail industry or the dockworkers so it's dispute with the union isn't a de-facto matter of national politics like those strikes were so appealing to the public to have a particular opinion on the matter is not of as much use therefore neither side of this dispute has invested heavily in it.

SpicyLemonZest 2y ago

Interesting. I spot checked the Boeing strike, and it does seem like unions often aren't too specific about their demands in public. I guess a lot of stuff that I thought came from unions is actually coming from internal reports like this.

bee_rider 2y ago
I know some folks who’ve done union organizing a bit, although I’m personally not that interested in it, so take this with a HUGE grain of salt. But I think appealing to the general public is a tool in the toolset, something they consider, but not an automatic go-to. Ultimately, the NYT tech guild doesn’t actually want the general public to think their boss is a “bad guy,” right? Like, getting the general public to boycott their employer too effectively is a risk to their own paychecks, haha.
- SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
  That's true, makes perfect sense.

9dev 2y ago

As a foreigner it’s so alien to me that such a provision isn’t mandated by law anyway, and that there isn’t broad support in the population to restrict employers from firing at will… wild.

gcr 2y ago
Exactly! US workers have to fight tooth and nail for things that employees can just expect from other countries. That's why strikes like this are such a big deal.
jdross 2y ago
because working with poor performing coworkers is soul crushing, and having a bad boss even worse
chis 2y ago
An an American it's hard for me to imagine how companies could ever work with universal protections from firing at will. What if you're running a painting business, and there's a downturn in construction. Do you just have to pay people to do nothing, since they haven't done anything wrong and aren't allowed to be fired? Or what if a large company needs to make a strategic pivot and fire some employees to hire others with a different skillset. It seems like economists do consider this to be one of the big reasons why the U.S. economy has grown so much faster than the EU. Hiring in Europe is much riskier, so companies would rather stay small.
- hamandcheese 2y ago
  In all those cases, it sounds like the company would actually suffer the consequences of their prior mismanagement (compared to today where mostly just employees suffer from bad management decisions). Yes, that means some companies might go under when they could have saved themselves by mass layoffs. I'd be okay with that trade. Yes, that means growth might slow down to more reasonable levels. I'd be okay with that trade. Europe isn't booming economically like the US, but if you've ever traveled there, their quality of life seems perfectly fine, and costs are much lower.
  - phil21 2y ago
    > Europe isn't booming economically like the US This would be an extreme understatement. > but if you've ever traveled there, their quality of life seems perfectly fine I'm not sure if traveling there is much of an indicator of anything. Doing business there over the course of many years might be a very basic table stakes start to get any idea of what is happening. Even then it will have large blind spots. Most folks traveling to Europe are also traveling to the richest parts of the richest countries and ignoring the rest. Inertia is a hell of a drug. For how much longer can western Europe stagnate and continue to fall behind the entire world little by little? There are bright spots, but those seem to becoming fewer and further in between. Talk with the younger generations and you may start to get different answers than you expect. The US system certainly isn't how I'd design things today, but I very much would avoid what the EU is seemingly running headlong into. How much of that has to do with worker protection laws is certainly highly debatable though.

111111IIIIIII 2y ago

[dead]

potato3732842 2y ago

> They might not have prepared much marketing material because they aren’t really selling anything to those of us in the general public, right? NYT isn't a highly regulated interstate employer like Boeing or the rail industry or the dockworkers so it's dispute with the union isn't a de-facto matter of national politics like those strikes were so appealing to the public to have a particular opinion on the matter is not of as much use therefore neither side of this dispute has invested heavily in it.