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It's more complicated than that because you pay much high taxes in Germany, so you need higher wages to cover those taxes. A fair comparison would be after tax

by ars 2y ago

It's more complicated than that because you pay much high taxes in Germany, so you need higher wages to cover those taxes. A fair comparison would be after tax money, and then you can factor in those things you said. But even that is hard, because VAT makes good more expensive, so now you really need to compare cost of living.

ceejayoz 2y ago
> It's more complicated than that because you pay much high taxes in Germany, so you need higher wages to cover those taxes. Between health insurance premiums, copays, dental/vision, and uncovered stuff like compounded meds, our family reported $50k in medical expenses on last year's tax return. I've got two kids entering college in a couple of years. I'll take the higher taxes.
- niemandhier 2y ago
  Also Note that if you do not earn enough, your kids get a universal stipend for university and uni is quite cheap at less than 1000€ per semester. It’s easy to get good education in Germany.
  - kulahan 2y ago
    University is inexpensive in the US as well, but we have a culture of leaving your home state to go off to another college, which makes it significantly more expensive. Average semester cost for tuition and taxes alone is something like $3500/yr for in-state tuition rates (aka when you're going to a public college in your home state), which is quite reasonable when you consider the higher average earnings, lower average housing costs, and better average university educations.
    - elashri 2y ago
      I was always under the impression that students who go to out of state college (some are because this is where they got accepted) will go and claim in state tuition after living the minimum (I think 1 year in most states) because they become residents of this state. So you basically pay the out of state tuition for the first year then in state after that. But the housing and food plans at most university (which is usually forced on first year students adds up to be an expensive).
      - nradov 2y ago
        No. Exact rules depend on the state, but most states don't consider students to be residents for tuition purposes just because you live there for a year. They look at other factors like where your parents live, where you pay taxes, whether you own real estate there, etc.
    - nradov 2y ago
      In-state tuition discounts also have the perverse effect of encouraging state college administrators to admit more out-of-state and foreign students who pay full tuition.
      - vel0city 2y ago
        This is pretty wrong. I can't say for every state, but in many states schools get roughly the same amount for an in-state or out of state student it's just the state subsidizes a chunk for the in-state students.
        aidenn0 2y ago
        I'm sure that it varies from state to state, but Purdue openly and explicitly capped the number of in-state students in order to support a tuition freeze.
    - aidenn0 2y ago
      I just checked the total cost estimates for the two closest 4-year public universities to where I live. They are both around $35k. These estimates do include costs like food and housing. Tuition+fees+books alone are about $14k and $17k, plus an additional $3k for health insurance (which is semi-mandatory; my employer provided health-insurance does not meet the requirements to waive this, so if my kids were to go there, they would be required to buy it).
    - vel0city 2y ago
      Tuition for in-state schools hasn't been $3,500/yr in decades. Most are $10k+, often more like ~$15k.
- lnsru 2y ago
  No. You pay max insurance of around $24k pre tax in Germany for a family. But the rest is private fun. So in an unfortunate year with couple dental implants and few pairs of glasses your pay another $10k from your pocket. Tax authority will not agree, that medical expenses could be deducted and silly endless bureaucracy discussion starts again. Edit: what I mean that mandatory insurance does not cover many important procedures.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    > Edit: what I mean that mandatory insurance does not cover many important procedures. That's true for American insurance, too. As a bonus, our uncovered procedures are often wildly more expensive. "The cost for everything related to Helene Sula’s knee surgery was about $2,000, compared with $14,000 for the same treatment in America." - https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/germany-s-health-care-system-model-u-s-n1024491 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/germany-s-health-... I'm on a medication that costs $25k for a milliliter (which is, thankfully, covered by my $3,000/month health insurance). It's 1/10th that cost in the UK, even if you pay for it out-of-pocket. The US is entirely abberant in healthcare costs, even when factoring in public spending. https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/health-spending.html https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/health-spending.html
    - aidenn0 2y ago
      The most backwards thing about US healthcare costs is that it costs more if the insurance doesn't cover it. I got a bill for $75k when my insurance incorrectly denied a claim. After they accepted the claim, they negotiated a price of $27k for the same bill.

by ars 2y ago

ceejayoz 2y ago

> It's more complicated than that because you pay much high taxes in Germany, so you need higher wages to cover those taxes. Between health insurance premiums, copays, dental/vision, and uncovered stuff like compounded meds, our family reported $50k in medical expenses on last year's tax return. I've got two kids entering college in a couple of years. I'll take the higher taxes.

niemandhier 2y ago
Also Note that if you do not earn enough, your kids get a universal stipend for university and uni is quite cheap at less than 1000€ per semester. It’s easy to get good education in Germany.
- kulahan 2y ago
  University is inexpensive in the US as well, but we have a culture of leaving your home state to go off to another college, which makes it significantly more expensive. Average semester cost for tuition and taxes alone is something like $3500/yr for in-state tuition rates (aka when you're going to a public college in your home state), which is quite reasonable when you consider the higher average earnings, lower average housing costs, and better average university educations.
  - elashri 2y ago
    I was always under the impression that students who go to out of state college (some are because this is where they got accepted) will go and claim in state tuition after living the minimum (I think 1 year in most states) because they become residents of this state. So you basically pay the out of state tuition for the first year then in state after that. But the housing and food plans at most university (which is usually forced on first year students adds up to be an expensive).
    - nradov 2y ago
      No. Exact rules depend on the state, but most states don't consider students to be residents for tuition purposes just because you live there for a year. They look at other factors like where your parents live, where you pay taxes, whether you own real estate there, etc.
  - nradov 2y ago
    In-state tuition discounts also have the perverse effect of encouraging state college administrators to admit more out-of-state and foreign students who pay full tuition.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      This is pretty wrong. I can't say for every state, but in many states schools get roughly the same amount for an in-state or out of state student it's just the state subsidizes a chunk for the in-state students.
      - aidenn0 2y ago
        I'm sure that it varies from state to state, but Purdue openly and explicitly capped the number of in-state students in order to support a tuition freeze.
  - aidenn0 2y ago
    I just checked the total cost estimates for the two closest 4-year public universities to where I live. They are both around $35k. These estimates do include costs like food and housing. Tuition+fees+books alone are about $14k and $17k, plus an additional $3k for health insurance (which is semi-mandatory; my employer provided health-insurance does not meet the requirements to waive this, so if my kids were to go there, they would be required to buy it).
  - vel0city 2y ago
    Tuition for in-state schools hasn't been $3,500/yr in decades. Most are $10k+, often more like ~$15k.
lnsru 2y ago
No. You pay max insurance of around $24k pre tax in Germany for a family. But the rest is private fun. So in an unfortunate year with couple dental implants and few pairs of glasses your pay another $10k from your pocket. Tax authority will not agree, that medical expenses could be deducted and silly endless bureaucracy discussion starts again. Edit: what I mean that mandatory insurance does not cover many important procedures.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  > Edit: what I mean that mandatory insurance does not cover many important procedures. That's true for American insurance, too. As a bonus, our uncovered procedures are often wildly more expensive. "The cost for everything related to Helene Sula’s knee surgery was about $2,000, compared with $14,000 for the same treatment in America." - https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/germany-s-health-care-system-model-u-s-n1024491 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/germany-s-health-... I'm on a medication that costs $25k for a milliliter (which is, thankfully, covered by my $3,000/month health insurance). It's 1/10th that cost in the UK, even if you pay for it out-of-pocket. The US is entirely abberant in healthcare costs, even when factoring in public spending. https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/health-spending.html https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/health-spending.html
  - aidenn0 2y ago
    The most backwards thing about US healthcare costs is that it costs more if the insurance doesn't cover it. I got a bill for $75k when my insurance incorrectly denied a claim. After they accepted the claim, they negotiated a price of $27k for the same bill.