4 ms·

TIL: California has a higher minimum hourly wage($16) than Germany(€12.41).

by aidenn0 2y ago

Voultapher 2y ago
Keep the cost of living in mind.
ceejayoz 2y ago
Not when you factor in cost of things like college, healthcare, and transit.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- ars 2y ago
  It's more complicated than that because you pay much high taxes in Germany, so you need higher wages to cover those taxes. A fair comparison would be after tax money, and then you can factor in those things you said. But even that is hard, because VAT makes good more expensive, so now you really need to compare cost of living.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    > It's more complicated than that because you pay much high taxes in Germany, so you need higher wages to cover those taxes. Between health insurance premiums, copays, dental/vision, and uncovered stuff like compounded meds, our family reported $50k in medical expenses on last year's tax return. I've got two kids entering college in a couple of years. I'll take the higher taxes.
    - niemandhier 2y ago
      Also Note that if you do not earn enough, your kids get a universal stipend for university and uni is quite cheap at less than 1000€ per semester. It’s easy to get good education in Germany.
      - kulahan 2y ago
        University is inexpensive in the US as well, but we have a culture of leaving your home state to go off to another college, which makes it significantly more expensive. Average semester cost for tuition and taxes alone is something like $3500/yr for in-state tuition rates (aka when you're going to a public college in your home state), which is quite reasonable when you consider the higher average earnings, lower average housing costs, and better average university educations.
        elashri 2y ago
        I was always under the impression that students who go to out of state college (some are because this is where they got accepted) will go and claim in state tuition after living the minimum (I think 1 year in most states) because they become residents of this state. So you basically pay the out of state tuition for the first year then in state after that. But the housing and food plans at most university (which is usually forced on first year students adds up to be an expensive).
        nradov 2y ago
        No. Exact rules depend on the state, but most states don't consider students to be residents for tuition purposes just because you live there for a year. They look at other factors like where your parents live, where you pay taxes, whether you own real estate there, etc.
        nradov 2y ago
        In-state tuition discounts also have the perverse effect of encouraging state college administrators to admit more out-of-state and foreign students who pay full tuition.
        vel0city 2y ago
        This is pretty wrong. I can't say for every state, but in many states schools get roughly the same amount for an in-state or out of state student it's just the state subsidizes a chunk for the in-state students.
    - lnsru 2y ago
      No. You pay max insurance of around $24k pre tax in Germany for a family. But the rest is private fun. So in an unfortunate year with couple dental implants and few pairs of glasses your pay another $10k from your pocket. Tax authority will not agree, that medical expenses could be deducted and silly endless bureaucracy discussion starts again. Edit: what I mean that mandatory insurance does not cover many important procedures.
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        > Edit: what I mean that mandatory insurance does not cover many important procedures. That's true for American insurance, too. As a bonus, our uncovered procedures are often wildly more expensive. "The cost for everything related to Helene Sula’s knee surgery was about $2,000, compared with $14,000 for the same treatment in America." - https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/germany-s-health-care-system-model-u-s-n1024491 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/germany-s-health-... I'm on a medication that costs $25k for a milliliter (which is, thankfully, covered by my $3,000/month health insurance). It's 1/10th that cost in the UK, even if you pay for it out-of-pocket. The US is entirely abberant in healthcare costs, even when factoring in public spending. https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/health-spending.html https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/health-spending.html
        aidenn0 2y ago
        The most backwards thing about US healthcare costs is that it costs more if the insurance doesn't cover it. I got a bill for $75k when my insurance incorrectly denied a claim. After they accepted the claim, they negotiated a price of $27k for the same bill.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  So isn't that an argument against a federal minimum wage increase, which ignores the cost of living locally just about everywhere? If the minimum wage should be the same in Kentucky as it is in California, shouldn't it also be the same in Germany as it is in California?
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    It's an argument against setting the federal minimum wage at NYC or LA's optimal setting, but not against ever raising it anywhere. There's no place in America where $7.25/hour and not accounting for inflation makes much sense.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      Indexed for inflation, that $7.25/hr should be $19 today.
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
      Is there a place in America where the prevailing retail/fast-food wage isn't already higher than $7.25/hr?
  - micromacrofoot 2y ago
    Federal minimum wage hasn't been increased for 15 years, not changing it for 15 years doesn't make sense anywhere.
  - Spooky23 2y ago
    You have a federal minimum wage because the crappiest states would have none.
- AStonesThrow 2y ago
  Also, the cost of church tithes.
  - AStonesThrow 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax#Germany
t-3 2y ago
Adjusted for PPP and exchange rates, Germany's is significantly higher (((12.41/.69)/.92) = 19.54).
- kulahan 2y ago
  PPP isn't something you need to adjust for in this case, so no, it's less than $14/hr once you make an exchange.
- YetAnotherNick 2y ago
  Where did you get .69 from? Germany PPP is not that low. According to wikipedia it's 0.78.[1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Germany
  - t-3 2y ago
    I used this (from 2022): https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/purchasing-power-parities-ppp.html?oecdcontrol-00b22b2429-var3=2022&oecdcontrol-38c744bfa4-var1=OAVG%7COECD%7CDEU%7CUSA https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/purchasing-power-par... The per-capita GDP and PPP-adjusted version of the same here show the same ratio: https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita-ppp https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita-ppp
- hansvm 2y ago
  PPP is one of those things that sounds good but isn't meaningful by itself (to be fair, a raw comparison of minimum wages wasn't either). When discussing comparative minimum wages, you're often trying to reason about something like subjective quality of life. An index of goods doesn't quite represent that though, because (a) in the place of external financial constraints consumers can be very happy choosing one good vs another, and (b) different consumers naturally have different purchasing needs. (a) Includes ideas like eating more onions and potatoes in places where they're cheap and more rice and scallions in places where those are cheap. An index including both biases strongly toward countries able to provide both reasonably cheaply -- a noble goal, but at a minimum wage level the existence of a $0.30/lb potato and a $1.00/lb onion is much more impactful than both being at $0.45/lb. (b) Different people have different constraints. At an extreme, a single person living in their car is able to be much better off in much of CA than a single person living in their car in Germany. Looking at minimum wage being "better" or "better when adjusted for PPP" misses a bit of nuance that I think is usually important here -- can minimum wage help somebody who works hard make ends meet, what if they're supporting a family, what if they only want to work 40hrs/week, ...? Just a few buckets of "types" of people can help us not talk past each other when arguing for some policy or another, getting to the root of our potential disagreements more quickly. I mostly agree with the conclusion by the way, but appealing to an authority like the oecd (PPP) when the statistic they publish isn't at all applicable is a mistake that happens frequently, on all sides, and it leads to poor discourse without actually improving anyone's knowledge of the situation.
jandrewrogers 2y ago
In Seattle minimum wage is $19.97, which will go to almost $21 in January.
csa 2y ago
> TIL: California has a higher minimum hourly wage ($16) than Germany (€12.41). State is currently $15 min, but localities can have their own mins. I think SF and SJ are $18ish now (don’t quote me on that). … but there is currently a ballot initiative to raise the state min to $18. … and “fast food workers”, which also includes pizza folks, are already at $20 min.
- aidenn0 2y ago
  It went up to $16 this year: https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/minimum_wage.htm https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/minimum_wage.htm
mytailorisrich 2y ago
Germany didn't have a minimum wage for a very long time. It's the EU that forced one and it was then extremely low for a long time, too.
- olddustytrail 2y ago
  How did the EU manage to force a minimum wage in Germany, but not in Austria or Sweden?
  - yladiz 2y ago
    I assume partly that Germany didn’t push back and get an exception, and partly that at least the Nordic countries could argue they effectively have a minimum wage and introducing one could cause unintended issues. Maybe the same in Austria as well.

TIL: California has a higher minimum hourly wage($16) than Germany(€12.41).

Voultapher 2y ago

Keep the cost of living in mind.

ceejayoz 2y ago

Not when you factor in cost of things like college, healthcare, and transit.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ars 2y ago
It's more complicated than that because you pay much high taxes in Germany, so you need higher wages to cover those taxes. A fair comparison would be after tax money, and then you can factor in those things you said. But even that is hard, because VAT makes good more expensive, so now you really need to compare cost of living.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  > It's more complicated than that because you pay much high taxes in Germany, so you need higher wages to cover those taxes. Between health insurance premiums, copays, dental/vision, and uncovered stuff like compounded meds, our family reported $50k in medical expenses on last year's tax return. I've got two kids entering college in a couple of years. I'll take the higher taxes.
  - niemandhier 2y ago
    Also Note that if you do not earn enough, your kids get a universal stipend for university and uni is quite cheap at less than 1000€ per semester. It’s easy to get good education in Germany.
    - kulahan 2y ago
      University is inexpensive in the US as well, but we have a culture of leaving your home state to go off to another college, which makes it significantly more expensive. Average semester cost for tuition and taxes alone is something like $3500/yr for in-state tuition rates (aka when you're going to a public college in your home state), which is quite reasonable when you consider the higher average earnings, lower average housing costs, and better average university educations.
      - elashri 2y ago
        I was always under the impression that students who go to out of state college (some are because this is where they got accepted) will go and claim in state tuition after living the minimum (I think 1 year in most states) because they become residents of this state. So you basically pay the out of state tuition for the first year then in state after that. But the housing and food plans at most university (which is usually forced on first year students adds up to be an expensive).
        nradov 2y ago
        No. Exact rules depend on the state, but most states don't consider students to be residents for tuition purposes just because you live there for a year. They look at other factors like where your parents live, where you pay taxes, whether you own real estate there, etc.
      - nradov 2y ago
        In-state tuition discounts also have the perverse effect of encouraging state college administrators to admit more out-of-state and foreign students who pay full tuition.
        vel0city 2y ago
        This is pretty wrong. I can't say for every state, but in many states schools get roughly the same amount for an in-state or out of state student it's just the state subsidizes a chunk for the in-state students.
  - lnsru 2y ago
    No. You pay max insurance of around $24k pre tax in Germany for a family. But the rest is private fun. So in an unfortunate year with couple dental implants and few pairs of glasses your pay another $10k from your pocket. Tax authority will not agree, that medical expenses could be deducted and silly endless bureaucracy discussion starts again. Edit: what I mean that mandatory insurance does not cover many important procedures.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      > Edit: what I mean that mandatory insurance does not cover many important procedures. That's true for American insurance, too. As a bonus, our uncovered procedures are often wildly more expensive. "The cost for everything related to Helene Sula’s knee surgery was about $2,000, compared with $14,000 for the same treatment in America." - https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/germany-s-health-care-system-model-u-s-n1024491 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/germany-s-health-... I'm on a medication that costs $25k for a milliliter (which is, thankfully, covered by my $3,000/month health insurance). It's 1/10th that cost in the UK, even if you pay for it out-of-pocket. The US is entirely abberant in healthcare costs, even when factoring in public spending. https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/health-spending.html https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/health-spending.html
      - aidenn0 2y ago
        The most backwards thing about US healthcare costs is that it costs more if the insurance doesn't cover it. I got a bill for $75k when my insurance incorrectly denied a claim. After they accepted the claim, they negotiated a price of $27k for the same bill.
NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
So isn't that an argument against a federal minimum wage increase, which ignores the cost of living locally just about everywhere? If the minimum wage should be the same in Kentucky as it is in California, shouldn't it also be the same in Germany as it is in California?
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  It's an argument against setting the federal minimum wage at NYC or LA's optimal setting, but not against ever raising it anywhere. There's no place in America where $7.25/hour and not accounting for inflation makes much sense.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    Indexed for inflation, that $7.25/hr should be $19 today.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
    Is there a place in America where the prevailing retail/fast-food wage isn't already higher than $7.25/hr?
- micromacrofoot 2y ago
  Federal minimum wage hasn't been increased for 15 years, not changing it for 15 years doesn't make sense anywhere.
- Spooky23 2y ago
  You have a federal minimum wage because the crappiest states would have none.
AStonesThrow 2y ago
Also, the cost of church tithes.
- AStonesThrow 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax#Germany

t-3 2y ago

Adjusted for PPP and exchange rates, Germany's is significantly higher (((12.41/.69)/.92) = 19.54).

kulahan 2y ago
PPP isn't something you need to adjust for in this case, so no, it's less than $14/hr once you make an exchange.
YetAnotherNick 2y ago
Where did you get .69 from? Germany PPP is not that low. According to wikipedia it's 0.78.[1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Germany
- t-3 2y ago
  I used this (from 2022): https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/purchasing-power-parities-ppp.html?oecdcontrol-00b22b2429-var3=2022&oecdcontrol-38c744bfa4-var1=OAVG%7COECD%7CDEU%7CUSA https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/purchasing-power-par... The per-capita GDP and PPP-adjusted version of the same here show the same ratio: https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita-ppp https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita-ppp
hansvm 2y ago
PPP is one of those things that sounds good but isn't meaningful by itself (to be fair, a raw comparison of minimum wages wasn't either). When discussing comparative minimum wages, you're often trying to reason about something like subjective quality of life. An index of goods doesn't quite represent that though, because (a) in the place of external financial constraints consumers can be very happy choosing one good vs another, and (b) different consumers naturally have different purchasing needs. (a) Includes ideas like eating more onions and potatoes in places where they're cheap and more rice and scallions in places where those are cheap. An index including both biases strongly toward countries able to provide both reasonably cheaply -- a noble goal, but at a minimum wage level the existence of a $0.30/lb potato and a $1.00/lb onion is much more impactful than both being at $0.45/lb. (b) Different people have different constraints. At an extreme, a single person living in their car is able to be much better off in much of CA than a single person living in their car in Germany. Looking at minimum wage being "better" or "better when adjusted for PPP" misses a bit of nuance that I think is usually important here -- can minimum wage help somebody who works hard make ends meet, what if they're supporting a family, what if they only want to work 40hrs/week, ...? Just a few buckets of "types" of people can help us not talk past each other when arguing for some policy or another, getting to the root of our potential disagreements more quickly. I mostly agree with the conclusion by the way, but appealing to an authority like the oecd (PPP) when the statistic they publish isn't at all applicable is a mistake that happens frequently, on all sides, and it leads to poor discourse without actually improving anyone's knowledge of the situation.

jandrewrogers 2y ago

In Seattle minimum wage is $19.97, which will go to almost $21 in January.

csa 2y ago

> TIL: California has a higher minimum hourly wage ($16) than Germany (€12.41). State is currently $15 min, but localities can have their own mins. I think SF and SJ are $18ish now (don’t quote me on that). … but there is currently a ballot initiative to raise the state min to $18. … and “fast food workers”, which also includes pizza folks, are already at $20 min.

aidenn0 2y ago
It went up to $16 this year: https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/minimum_wage.htm https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/minimum_wage.htm

mytailorisrich 2y ago

Germany didn't have a minimum wage for a very long time. It's the EU that forced one and it was then extremely low for a long time, too.

olddustytrail 2y ago
How did the EU manage to force a minimum wage in Germany, but not in Austria or Sweden?
- yladiz 2y ago
  I assume partly that Germany didn’t push back and get an exception, and partly that at least the Nordic countries could argue they effectively have a minimum wage and introducing one could cause unintended issues. Maybe the same in Austria as well.