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> to purchase a machine that feels like it really belongs to me How true is this when they devices are increasingly hostile to user repair and upgrades? MacOS

> to purchase a machine that feels like it really belongs to me How true is this when they devices are increasingly hostile to user repair and upgrades? MacOS also tightens the screws on what you can run and from where, or at least require more hoop jumping over time.

arzke 2y ago
> How true is this when they devices are increasingly hostile to user repair and upgrades? Not sure what you mean exactly by this, but to me their Self Service Repair program is a step in the right direction.
- sqeaky 2y ago
  It was mandated by right to repair laws, it provides the absolute minimum, and they've attempted the price out people wanting to do repairs. The only way it could be more hostile to users is by literally being illegal. They could go out of their way to make things actually easy to work on and service, but that has never been the Apple Way. Compare to framework or building your own PC, or even repairing a laptop from another OEM.
superb_dev 2y ago
Apple also left a very convenient hole in their boot loader to allow running another OS. Linux works pretty well these days
- schaefer 2y ago
  * on M1 and M2 variants.
  - duskwuff 2y ago
    The bootloader supports third-party operating systems on M3/M4 as well. Linux support just isn't there yet.
  - superb_dev 2y ago
    Just to clarify, Asahi Linux is working on M3/M4 support. As far as I can tell nothing changed in the boot loader that makes this work more difficult, it just takes time to add the new hardware. https://git.sudo.is/mirrors/AsahiLinux-docs/wiki/M3-Series-Feature-Support https://git.sudo.is/mirrors/AsahiLinux-docs/wiki/M3-Series-F...
- bogantech 2y ago
  * As long as you don't want to use any external displays
  - weikju 2y ago
    Works with devices with HDMI ports
- nsonha 2y ago
  Really? I got a bunch of error upgrading my Arch-based Asahi and now chromium doesn't work anymore. Oh and no external display, or speaker.
  - pjerem 2y ago
    You mean you have bugs on a system that isn’t announced as production ready yet ? I tested Asahi and I genuinely love it and I’ll probably be happy to use it as my daily driver as soon as it will be mature enough. And I’m impressed by how it works well (outside of what still doesn’t work at all). But buying a Mac ARM hopping to run Linux on it today without issue is just a wrong move. Just buy a classic PC if you want to be productive on Linux today. I’m pretty confident it will happen though since the team itself looks pretty confident about supporting what is currently missing and in the past, achieved more than I hoped.
    - mu53 2y ago
      Its amazing how far they have come, but it still lacks so much.
    - nsonha 2y ago
      simply replying to (on ARM) "linux works pretty well these days"
lukev 2y ago
Of course I wish the hardware were somehow more open, but to a large extent, it's directly because of hardware based privacy features. If you allowed third-party components without restraint, there'd be no way to prevent someone swapping out a component. Lock-in and planned obsolescence are also factors, and ones I'm glad the EU (and others) are pushing back here. But it isn't as if there are no legitimate tradeoffs. Regarding screw tightening... if they ever completely remove the ability to run untrusted code, yes, then I'll admit I was wrong. But I am more than happy to have devices be locked down by default. My life has gotten much easier since I got my elderly parents and non-technical siblings to move completely to the Apple ecosystem. That's the tradeoff here.
- amelius 2y ago
  > My life has gotten much easier since I got my elderly parents and non-technical siblings to move completely to the Apple ecosystem. That's the tradeoff here. Yeah, but this is hacker news.
  - Klonoar 2y ago
    “Hacker News” was always the arm of Valley startup mentality, not Slashdot-era Linux enthusiast privacy spook groupthink. It is unfortunate that this change has occurred.
    - dartharva 2y ago
      > Slashdot-era Linux enthusiast privacy spook groupthink This is what the vast majority of discourse on these topics has been dominated by on every platform, not just HN. I wonder if there's a shorter term for this, none of 4chan /g/'s crass terms cover this kind of depiction.
      - talldayo 2y ago
        > I wonder if there's a shorter term for this Competition-enabled rationalism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xserve
jeffybefffy519 2y ago
Considering you need an Apple ID to log into the hardware, id argue Apple gatekeeps that ownership pretty tightly.
- lukev 2y ago
  This isn't true. edit: also, unless you are the digital equivalent of "off the grid", I would argue most people are going to need some sort of cloud-based identity anyway for messaging, file-sharing, etc. iCloud is far and away the most secure of the options available to most users, and the only one that uses full end-to-end encryption across all services.
  - JadeNB 2y ago
    > edit: also, unless you are the digital equivalent of "off the grid", I would argue most people are going to need some sort of cloud-based identity anyway for messaging, file-sharing, etc. iCloud is far and away the most secure of the options available to most users, and the only one that uses full end-to-end encryption across all services. "You need some cloud-based identity, and this is the best one," even granting its premises, doesn't make being forced into this one a good thing. I'm an Apple user, but there are plenty of people I need to message and share files with who aren't in the Apple ecosystem. EDIT: As indicated in the reply (written before I added this edit), it sounds like I was ignoring the first part of the post, which pointed out that you aren't forced to use it. I agree that that is a sensible, and even natural and inevitable, reading. I actually wasn't ignoring that part, but I figured the only reason to include this edit was to say "that isn't true, but if it were true, then it would be OK." (Otherwise, what's the point? There's no more complete refutation needed of a false point than that it is false.) My argument is that, if it were true, then that wouldn't be OK, even if you need a cloud-based identity, and even if iCloud is the best one.
    - reaperducer 2y ago
      doesn't make being forced into this one a good thing But you're not forced. You completely ignored the other response in order to continue grinding an axe.
syndicatedjelly 2y ago
> MacOS also tightens the screws on what you can run and from where, or at least require more hoop jumping over time. Can you explain what you mean by this? I have been doing software development on MacOS for the last couple of years and have found it incredibly easy to run anything I want on my computer from the terminal, whenever I want. Maybe I'm not the average user, but I use mostly open-source Unix tooling and have never had a problem with permissions or restrictions. Are you talking about packaged applications that are made available on the App Store? If so, sure have rules to make sure the store is high-quality, kinda like how Costco doesn't let anyone just put garbage on their shelves
- heavyset_go 2y ago
  > Can you explain what you mean by this? I have been doing software development on MacOS for the last couple of years and have found it incredibly easy to run anything I want on my computer from the terminal, whenever I want. Try sharing a binary that you built but didn't sign and Notarize and you'll see the problem. It'll run on the machine that it was built on without a problem, the problems start when you move the binary to another machine.
  - bluedino 2y ago
    My (very large US company) workplace has their own, branded app store for Mac users. One of our most popular apps is 'Gatekeeper disable'
reaperducer 2y ago
How true is this when they devices are increasingly hostile to user repair and upgrades? I can neither repair nor upgrade my electric car, my furniture, or my plumbing. But they all still belong to me.
- BeefWellington 2y ago
  This is due to your capabilities as an individual, not the possibilities surrounding the items themselves.
  - macintosh-hd 2y ago
    You can also repair their devices yourself using their repair program, but only if you have the capabilities as an individual, so I don’t see your point.
ezfe 2y ago
You can buy most parts officially from Apple - I just bought a new set of keycaps to replace some on my MacBook Air. Couldn't do that 5 years ago. You can install whatever OS you want on your computer - Asahi Linux is the only one that's done the work to support that. You can disable the system lockdowns that "tighten the screws" you refer to and unlock most things back to how they used to be.
- talldayo 2y ago
  > You can buy most parts officially from Apple But very distinctly, not all. Apple deliberately makes customers buy more than what they need while refusing to sell board-level ICs or allow donor boards to be disassembled for parts. If a $0.03 Texas Instruments voltage controller melts on your Macbook, you have to buy and replace the whole $600 board if you want it working again. In Apple's eyes, third party repairs simply aren't viable and the waste is justified because it's "technically" repaired. > You can install whatever OS you want on your computer Just not your iPhone, iPad or Apple Watch. Because that would simply be a bridge too far - allowing real competition in a walled garden? Unheard of. > You can disable the system lockdowns that "tighten the screws" you refer to and unlock most things back to how they used to be. And watch as they break after regular system upgrades that force API regressions and new unjustified restrictions on your OS. Most importantly, none of this is a real an option on Apple's business-critical products.
  - ezfe 2y ago
    Yeah, I know you can't buy every component. But five years ago you couldn't buy any. We're clearly talking about Macs for the software parts so I'm not sure why you're bringing in iPhone/iPad/Apple Watch where the status quo has remained unchanged since they were introduced. I'd love those to be opened up but that's another conversation. Regarding system restrictions on macOS (putting aside the fact it fully supports otehr operating systems on Apple hardware), the ability to disable the system restrictions hasn't changed for years. System Integrity Protection is still a toggle that most users never need to touch. > Most importantly, none of this is a real an option on Apple's business-critical products. I don't understand what this means?
rad_gruchalski 2y ago
What you see hostile to repair I see as not worth stealing. What you see as macOS dictating what you can run from where I see as an infiltration prevention.
- justin66 2y ago
  They certainly are worth stealing. They get parted out and Apple's hostility towards making parts available means those stolen parts are worth more.
  - macintosh-hd 2y ago
    Except for when the valuable parts are software locked by activation lock and cannot be used in any other device.
- talldayo 2y ago
  What you see as anticompetitive payment processing on iOS, others may see friendly and harmless business model. HNers, be respectful when criticizing bigger companies like John Deere and Apple - it's important you don't hurt these customer's feelings and scare them off.
  - 1000100_1000101 2y ago
    Your tractor doesn't (I would hope) contain your banking details and all your emails, contacts, browsing history, photos, etc. It deserves to be treated as the tool that it is. Apple taking your data privacy seriously seems a worthy exception to me. You're free to disagree, and buy an Android.
    - talldayo 2y ago
      Apple can take my privacy seriously while also allowing me to fix my hardware. You are promoting a false dichotomy that could be used to excuse almost any form of irrational behavior.
sroussey 2y ago
I have the same problem with graphics cards (not upgradable—and cost more than the pc they are in!) Same with server parts using HBM—won’t let me upgrade memory there either. That said, the apple ssd situation is abysmal. At least with memory they have reasons.
danielfoster 2y ago
You can read the ifixit teardown before you buy it.
FractalHQ 2y ago
My MacBooks are built like a tank and outperform/outlive everything else easily for a decade. I don’t need more than 128GB of RAM or 2TB of storage… and I don’t need to repair what doesn’t break. It would be nice to have the option, but the time I save using an OS that just works like MacOS is worth more to me. And the best software in the world always runs on it. It’s a no brainier for me.

arzke 2y ago

> How true is this when they devices are increasingly hostile to user repair and upgrades? Not sure what you mean exactly by this, but to me their Self Service Repair program is a step in the right direction.

sqeaky 2y ago
It was mandated by right to repair laws, it provides the absolute minimum, and they've attempted the price out people wanting to do repairs. The only way it could be more hostile to users is by literally being illegal. They could go out of their way to make things actually easy to work on and service, but that has never been the Apple Way. Compare to framework or building your own PC, or even repairing a laptop from another OEM.

superb_dev 2y ago

Apple also left a very convenient hole in their boot loader to allow running another OS. Linux works pretty well these days

schaefer 2y ago
* on M1 and M2 variants.
- duskwuff 2y ago
  The bootloader supports third-party operating systems on M3/M4 as well. Linux support just isn't there yet.
- superb_dev 2y ago
  Just to clarify, Asahi Linux is working on M3/M4 support. As far as I can tell nothing changed in the boot loader that makes this work more difficult, it just takes time to add the new hardware. https://git.sudo.is/mirrors/AsahiLinux-docs/wiki/M3-Series-Feature-Support https://git.sudo.is/mirrors/AsahiLinux-docs/wiki/M3-Series-F...
bogantech 2y ago
* As long as you don't want to use any external displays
- weikju 2y ago
  Works with devices with HDMI ports
nsonha 2y ago
Really? I got a bunch of error upgrading my Arch-based Asahi and now chromium doesn't work anymore. Oh and no external display, or speaker.
- pjerem 2y ago
  You mean you have bugs on a system that isn’t announced as production ready yet ? I tested Asahi and I genuinely love it and I’ll probably be happy to use it as my daily driver as soon as it will be mature enough. And I’m impressed by how it works well (outside of what still doesn’t work at all). But buying a Mac ARM hopping to run Linux on it today without issue is just a wrong move. Just buy a classic PC if you want to be productive on Linux today. I’m pretty confident it will happen though since the team itself looks pretty confident about supporting what is currently missing and in the past, achieved more than I hoped.
  - mu53 2y ago
    Its amazing how far they have come, but it still lacks so much.
  - nsonha 2y ago
    simply replying to (on ARM) "linux works pretty well these days"

lukev 2y ago

Of course I wish the hardware were somehow more open, but to a large extent, it's directly because of hardware based privacy features. If you allowed third-party components without restraint, there'd be no way to prevent someone swapping out a component. Lock-in and planned obsolescence are also factors, and ones I'm glad the EU (and others) are pushing back here. But it isn't as if there are no legitimate tradeoffs. Regarding screw tightening... if they ever completely remove the ability to run untrusted code, yes, then I'll admit I was wrong. But I am more than happy to have devices be locked down by default. My life has gotten much easier since I got my elderly parents and non-technical siblings to move completely to the Apple ecosystem. That's the tradeoff here.

amelius 2y ago
> My life has gotten much easier since I got my elderly parents and non-technical siblings to move completely to the Apple ecosystem. That's the tradeoff here. Yeah, but this is hacker news.
- Klonoar 2y ago
  “Hacker News” was always the arm of Valley startup mentality, not Slashdot-era Linux enthusiast privacy spook groupthink. It is unfortunate that this change has occurred.
  - dartharva 2y ago
    > Slashdot-era Linux enthusiast privacy spook groupthink This is what the vast majority of discourse on these topics has been dominated by on every platform, not just HN. I wonder if there's a shorter term for this, none of 4chan /g/'s crass terms cover this kind of depiction.
    - talldayo 2y ago
      > I wonder if there's a shorter term for this Competition-enabled rationalism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xserve

jeffybefffy519 2y ago

Considering you need an Apple ID to log into the hardware, id argue Apple gatekeeps that ownership pretty tightly.

lukev 2y ago
This isn't true. edit: also, unless you are the digital equivalent of "off the grid", I would argue most people are going to need some sort of cloud-based identity anyway for messaging, file-sharing, etc. iCloud is far and away the most secure of the options available to most users, and the only one that uses full end-to-end encryption across all services.
- JadeNB 2y ago
  > edit: also, unless you are the digital equivalent of "off the grid", I would argue most people are going to need some sort of cloud-based identity anyway for messaging, file-sharing, etc. iCloud is far and away the most secure of the options available to most users, and the only one that uses full end-to-end encryption across all services. "You need some cloud-based identity, and this is the best one," even granting its premises, doesn't make being forced into this one a good thing. I'm an Apple user, but there are plenty of people I need to message and share files with who aren't in the Apple ecosystem. EDIT: As indicated in the reply (written before I added this edit), it sounds like I was ignoring the first part of the post, which pointed out that you aren't forced to use it. I agree that that is a sensible, and even natural and inevitable, reading. I actually wasn't ignoring that part, but I figured the only reason to include this edit was to say "that isn't true, but if it were true, then it would be OK." (Otherwise, what's the point? There's no more complete refutation needed of a false point than that it is false.) My argument is that, if it were true, then that wouldn't be OK, even if you need a cloud-based identity, and even if iCloud is the best one.
  - reaperducer 2y ago
    doesn't make being forced into this one a good thing But you're not forced. You completely ignored the other response in order to continue grinding an axe.

syndicatedjelly 2y ago

> MacOS also tightens the screws on what you can run and from where, or at least require more hoop jumping over time. Can you explain what you mean by this? I have been doing software development on MacOS for the last couple of years and have found it incredibly easy to run anything I want on my computer from the terminal, whenever I want. Maybe I'm not the average user, but I use mostly open-source Unix tooling and have never had a problem with permissions or restrictions. Are you talking about packaged applications that are made available on the App Store? If so, sure have rules to make sure the store is high-quality, kinda like how Costco doesn't let anyone just put garbage on their shelves

heavyset_go 2y ago
> Can you explain what you mean by this? I have been doing software development on MacOS for the last couple of years and have found it incredibly easy to run anything I want on my computer from the terminal, whenever I want. Try sharing a binary that you built but didn't sign and Notarize and you'll see the problem. It'll run on the machine that it was built on without a problem, the problems start when you move the binary to another machine.
- bluedino 2y ago
  My (very large US company) workplace has their own, branded app store for Mac users. One of our most popular apps is 'Gatekeeper disable'

reaperducer 2y ago

How true is this when they devices are increasingly hostile to user repair and upgrades? I can neither repair nor upgrade my electric car, my furniture, or my plumbing. But they all still belong to me.

BeefWellington 2y ago
This is due to your capabilities as an individual, not the possibilities surrounding the items themselves.
- macintosh-hd 2y ago
  You can also repair their devices yourself using their repair program, but only if you have the capabilities as an individual, so I don’t see your point.

ezfe 2y ago

You can buy most parts officially from Apple - I just bought a new set of keycaps to replace some on my MacBook Air. Couldn't do that 5 years ago. You can install whatever OS you want on your computer - Asahi Linux is the only one that's done the work to support that. You can disable the system lockdowns that "tighten the screws" you refer to and unlock most things back to how they used to be.

talldayo 2y ago
> You can buy most parts officially from Apple But very distinctly, not all. Apple deliberately makes customers buy more than what they need while refusing to sell board-level ICs or allow donor boards to be disassembled for parts. If a $0.03 Texas Instruments voltage controller melts on your Macbook, you have to buy and replace the whole $600 board if you want it working again. In Apple's eyes, third party repairs simply aren't viable and the waste is justified because it's "technically" repaired. > You can install whatever OS you want on your computer Just not your iPhone, iPad or Apple Watch. Because that would simply be a bridge too far - allowing real competition in a walled garden? Unheard of. > You can disable the system lockdowns that "tighten the screws" you refer to and unlock most things back to how they used to be. And watch as they break after regular system upgrades that force API regressions and new unjustified restrictions on your OS. Most importantly, none of this is a real an option on Apple's business-critical products.
- ezfe 2y ago
  Yeah, I know you can't buy every component. But five years ago you couldn't buy any. We're clearly talking about Macs for the software parts so I'm not sure why you're bringing in iPhone/iPad/Apple Watch where the status quo has remained unchanged since they were introduced. I'd love those to be opened up but that's another conversation. Regarding system restrictions on macOS (putting aside the fact it fully supports otehr operating systems on Apple hardware), the ability to disable the system restrictions hasn't changed for years. System Integrity Protection is still a toggle that most users never need to touch. > Most importantly, none of this is a real an option on Apple's business-critical products. I don't understand what this means?

rad_gruchalski 2y ago

What you see hostile to repair I see as not worth stealing. What you see as macOS dictating what you can run from where I see as an infiltration prevention.

justin66 2y ago
They certainly are worth stealing. They get parted out and Apple's hostility towards making parts available means those stolen parts are worth more.
- macintosh-hd 2y ago
  Except for when the valuable parts are software locked by activation lock and cannot be used in any other device.
talldayo 2y ago
What you see as anticompetitive payment processing on iOS, others may see friendly and harmless business model. HNers, be respectful when criticizing bigger companies like John Deere and Apple - it's important you don't hurt these customer's feelings and scare them off.
- 1000100_1000101 2y ago
  Your tractor doesn't (I would hope) contain your banking details and all your emails, contacts, browsing history, photos, etc. It deserves to be treated as the tool that it is. Apple taking your data privacy seriously seems a worthy exception to me. You're free to disagree, and buy an Android.
  - talldayo 2y ago
    Apple can take my privacy seriously while also allowing me to fix my hardware. You are promoting a false dichotomy that could be used to excuse almost any form of irrational behavior.

sroussey 2y ago

I have the same problem with graphics cards (not upgradable—and cost more than the pc they are in!) Same with server parts using HBM—won’t let me upgrade memory there either. That said, the apple ssd situation is abysmal. At least with memory they have reasons.

danielfoster 2y ago

You can read the ifixit teardown before you buy it.

FractalHQ 2y ago

My MacBooks are built like a tank and outperform/outlive everything else easily for a decade. I don’t need more than 128GB of RAM or 2TB of storage… and I don’t need to repair what doesn’t break. It would be nice to have the option, but the time I save using an OS that just works like MacOS is worth more to me. And the best software in the world always runs on it. It’s a no brainier for me.