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I really respect Apple's privacy focused engineering. They didn't roll out _any_ AI features until they were capable of running them locally, and before doing a

• paulryanrogers 2y ago
  > to purchase a machine that feels like it really belongs to me How true is this when they devices are increasingly hostile to user repair and upgrades? MacOS also tightens the screws on what you can run and from where, or at least require more hoop jumping over time.
  • arzke 2y ago
    > How true is this when they devices are increasingly hostile to user repair and upgrades? Not sure what you mean exactly by this, but to me their Self Service Repair program is a step in the right direction.
    • sqeaky 2y ago
      It was mandated by right to repair laws, it provides the absolute minimum, and they've attempted the price out people wanting to do repairs. The only way it could be more hostile to users is by literally being illegal. They could go out of their way to make things actually easy to work on and service, but that has never been the Apple Way. Compare to framework or building your own PC, or even repairing a laptop from another OEM.
  • superb_dev 2y ago
    Apple also left a very convenient hole in their boot loader to allow running another OS. Linux works pretty well these days
    • schaefer 2y ago
      * on M1 and M2 variants.
      • duskwuff 2y ago
        The bootloader supports third-party operating systems on M3/M4 as well. Linux support just isn't there yet.
      • superb_dev 2y ago
        Just to clarify, Asahi Linux is working on M3/M4 support. As far as I can tell nothing changed in the boot loader that makes this work more difficult, it just takes time to add the new hardware. https://git.sudo.is/mirrors/AsahiLinux-docs/wiki/M3-Series-Feature-Support https://git.sudo.is/mirrors/AsahiLinux-docs/wiki/M3-Series-F...
    • bogantech 2y ago
      * As long as you don't want to use any external displays
      • weikju 2y ago
        Works with devices with HDMI ports
    • nsonha 2y ago
      Really? I got a bunch of error upgrading my Arch-based Asahi and now chromium doesn't work anymore. Oh and no external display, or speaker.
      • pjerem 2y ago
        You mean you have bugs on a system that isn’t announced as production ready yet ? I tested Asahi and I genuinely love it and I’ll probably be happy to use it as my daily driver as soon as it will be mature enough. And I’m impressed by how it works well (outside of what still doesn’t work at all). But buying a Mac ARM hopping to run Linux on it today without issue is just a wrong move. Just buy a classic PC if you want to be productive on Linux today. I’m pretty confident it will happen though since the team itself looks pretty confident about supporting what is currently missing and in the past, achieved more than I hoped.
  • lukev 2y ago
    Of course I wish the hardware were somehow more open, but to a large extent, it's directly because of hardware based privacy features. If you allowed third-party components without restraint, there'd be no way to prevent someone swapping out a component. Lock-in and planned obsolescence are also factors, and ones I'm glad the EU (and others) are pushing back here. But it isn't as if there are no legitimate tradeoffs. Regarding screw tightening... if they ever completely remove the ability to run untrusted code, yes, then I'll admit I was wrong. But I am more than happy to have devices be locked down by default. My life has gotten much easier since I got my elderly parents and non-technical siblings to move completely to the Apple ecosystem. That's the tradeoff here.
    • amelius 2y ago
      > My life has gotten much easier since I got my elderly parents and non-technical siblings to move completely to the Apple ecosystem. That's the tradeoff here. Yeah, but this is hacker news.
      • Klonoar 2y ago
        “Hacker News” was always the arm of Valley startup mentality, not Slashdot-era Linux enthusiast privacy spook groupthink. It is unfortunate that this change has occurred.
        • dartharva 2y ago
          > Slashdot-era Linux enthusiast privacy spook groupthink This is what the vast majority of discourse on these topics has been dominated by on every platform, not just HN. I wonder if there's a shorter term for this, none of 4chan /g/'s crass terms cover this kind of depiction.
          • talldayo 2y ago
            > I wonder if there's a shorter term for this Competition-enabled rationalism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xserve
  • jeffybefffy519 2y ago
    Considering you need an Apple ID to log into the hardware, id argue Apple gatekeeps that ownership pretty tightly.
    • lukev 2y ago
      This isn't true. edit: also, unless you are the digital equivalent of "off the grid", I would argue most people are going to need some sort of cloud-based identity anyway for messaging, file-sharing, etc. iCloud is far and away the most secure of the options available to most users, and the only one that uses full end-to-end encryption across all services.
      • JadeNB 2y ago
        > edit: also, unless you are the digital equivalent of "off the grid", I would argue most people are going to need some sort of cloud-based identity anyway for messaging, file-sharing, etc. iCloud is far and away the most secure of the options available to most users, and the only one that uses full end-to-end encryption across all services. "You need some cloud-based identity, and this is the best one," even granting its premises, doesn't make being forced into this one a good thing. I'm an Apple user, but there are plenty of people I need to message and share files with who aren't in the Apple ecosystem. EDIT: As indicated in the reply (written before I added this edit), it sounds like I was ignoring the first part of the post, which pointed out that you aren't forced to use it. I agree that that is a sensible, and even natural and inevitable, reading. I actually wasn't ignoring that part, but I figured the only reason to include this edit was to say "that isn't true, but if it were true, then it would be OK." (Otherwise, what's the point? There's no more complete refutation needed of a false point than that it is false.) My argument is that, if it were true, then that wouldn't be OK, even if you need a cloud-based identity, and even if iCloud is the best one.
        • reaperducer 2y ago
          doesn't make being forced into this one a good thing But you're not forced. You completely ignored the other response in order to continue grinding an axe.
  • syndicatedjelly 2y ago
    > MacOS also tightens the screws on what you can run and from where, or at least require more hoop jumping over time. Can you explain what you mean by this? I have been doing software development on MacOS for the last couple of years and have found it incredibly easy to run anything I want on my computer from the terminal, whenever I want. Maybe I'm not the average user, but I use mostly open-source Unix tooling and have never had a problem with permissions or restrictions. Are you talking about packaged applications that are made available on the App Store? If so, sure have rules to make sure the store is high-quality, kinda like how Costco doesn't let anyone just put garbage on their shelves
    • heavyset_go 2y ago
      > Can you explain what you mean by this? I have been doing software development on MacOS for the last couple of years and have found it incredibly easy to run anything I want on my computer from the terminal, whenever I want. Try sharing a binary that you built but didn't sign and Notarize and you'll see the problem. It'll run on the machine that it was built on without a problem, the problems start when you move the binary to another machine.
      • bluedino 2y ago
        My (very large US company) workplace has their own, branded app store for Mac users. One of our most popular apps is 'Gatekeeper disable'
  • reaperducer 2y ago
    How true is this when they devices are increasingly hostile to user repair and upgrades? I can neither repair nor upgrade my electric car, my furniture, or my plumbing. But they all still belong to me.
    • BeefWellington 2y ago
      This is due to your capabilities as an individual, not the possibilities surrounding the items themselves.
      • macintosh-hd 2y ago
        You can also repair their devices yourself using their repair program, but only if you have the capabilities as an individual, so I don’t see your point.
  • ezfe 2y ago
    You can buy most parts officially from Apple - I just bought a new set of keycaps to replace some on my MacBook Air. Couldn't do that 5 years ago. You can install whatever OS you want on your computer - Asahi Linux is the only one that's done the work to support that. You can disable the system lockdowns that "tighten the screws" you refer to and unlock most things back to how they used to be.
    • talldayo 2y ago
      > You can buy most parts officially from Apple But very distinctly, not all. Apple deliberately makes customers buy more than what they need while refusing to sell board-level ICs or allow donor boards to be disassembled for parts. If a $0.03 Texas Instruments voltage controller melts on your Macbook, you have to buy and replace the whole $600 board if you want it working again. In Apple's eyes, third party repairs simply aren't viable and the waste is justified because it's "technically" repaired. > You can install whatever OS you want on your computer Just not your iPhone, iPad or Apple Watch. Because that would simply be a bridge too far - allowing real competition in a walled garden? Unheard of. > You can disable the system lockdowns that "tighten the screws" you refer to and unlock most things back to how they used to be. And watch as they break after regular system upgrades that force API regressions and new unjustified restrictions on your OS. Most importantly, none of this is a real an option on Apple's business-critical products.
      • ezfe 2y ago
        Yeah, I know you can't buy every component. But five years ago you couldn't buy any. We're clearly talking about Macs for the software parts so I'm not sure why you're bringing in iPhone/iPad/Apple Watch where the status quo has remained unchanged since they were introduced. I'd love those to be opened up but that's another conversation. Regarding system restrictions on macOS (putting aside the fact it fully supports otehr operating systems on Apple hardware), the ability to disable the system restrictions hasn't changed for years. System Integrity Protection is still a toggle that most users never need to touch. > Most importantly, none of this is a real an option on Apple's business-critical products. I don't understand what this means?
  • rad_gruchalski 2y ago
    What you see hostile to repair I see as not worth stealing. What you see as macOS dictating what you can run from where I see as an infiltration prevention.
    • justin66 2y ago
      They certainly are worth stealing. They get parted out and Apple's hostility towards making parts available means those stolen parts are worth more.
      • macintosh-hd 2y ago
        Except for when the valuable parts are software locked by activation lock and cannot be used in any other device.
    • talldayo 2y ago
      What you see as anticompetitive payment processing on iOS, others may see friendly and harmless business model. HNers, be respectful when criticizing bigger companies like John Deere and Apple - it's important you don't hurt these customer's feelings and scare them off.
      • 1000100_1000101 2y ago
        Your tractor doesn't (I would hope) contain your banking details and all your emails, contacts, browsing history, photos, etc. It deserves to be treated as the tool that it is. Apple taking your data privacy seriously seems a worthy exception to me. You're free to disagree, and buy an Android.
        • talldayo 2y ago
          Apple can take my privacy seriously while also allowing me to fix my hardware. You are promoting a false dichotomy that could be used to excuse almost any form of irrational behavior.
  • sroussey 2y ago
    I have the same problem with graphics cards (not upgradable—and cost more than the pc they are in!) Same with server parts using HBM—won’t let me upgrade memory there either. That said, the apple ssd situation is abysmal. At least with memory they have reasons.
  • danielfoster 2y ago
    You can read the ifixit teardown before you buy it.
  • FractalHQ 2y ago
    My MacBooks are built like a tank and outperform/outlive everything else easily for a decade. I don’t need more than 128GB of RAM or 2TB of storage… and I don’t need to repair what doesn’t break. It would be nice to have the option, but the time I save using an OS that just works like MacOS is worth more to me. And the best software in the world always runs on it. It’s a no brainier for me.
• victor106 2y ago
  I agree 100% with this. Amongst all the big tech companies Apple is the closest you will get to if you want Privacy.
• riazrizvi 2y ago
  The approach that the big platforms have to producing their own versions of very successful apps cannibalizes their partners. This focus on consumer privacy by Apple is the company's killer competitive advantage in this particular area, IMO. If I felt they were mining me for my private business data I'd switch to Linux in heartbeat. This is what keeps me off Adobe, Microsoft Office, Google's app suite, and apps like Notion as much as possible.
• dmz73 2y ago
  Mac OS calls home every time you execute an application. Apple is well on its way to ensure you can only run things they allow via app store, they would probably already be there if it wasn't for the pesky EU. If you send your computer/phone to Apple for repair you may get back different physical hardware. Those things very much highlight that "your" Apple hardware is not yours and that privacy on Apple hardware does not actually exist, sure they may not share that data with other parties but they definitely do not respect your privacy or act like you own the hardware you purchased. Apple marketing seems to have reached the level indoctrination where everyone just keeps parroting what Apple says as an absolute truth.
  • leokennis 2y ago
    At the very least Apple are better than Microsoft, Windows and the vendors that sell Windows laptops when it comes to respecting user experience and privacy.
    • HeckFeck 2y ago
      I switched to iPhone after they added the tracker blocking to the OS. Everything is a tradeoff. I’d love to live in the F droid alt tech land, but everything really comes down to utility. Messaging my friends is more important than using the right IM protocol. Much as I wish I could convince everyone I know and have yet to meet to message me on Signal or whatever, that simply isn’t possible. Try explaining that I am not on Whatsapp or insta to a girl I’ve just met… Also it is nice to spend basically no time maintaining the device, and have everything work together coherently. Time is ever more valuable past a certain point.
      • bboygravity 2y ago
        That's a low bar for girls IMO (not being able to grasp that someone might not want to use Whatsapp or Instagram).
        • FuturisticGoat 2y ago
• wslh 2y ago
  I understand we will be able to disable that just in case? I don't want a Microsoft Windows telemetry dejavu.
• amelius 2y ago
  > Private Cloud Compute That's such a security theater. As long as nobody can look inside their ICs, nobody knows what's really happening there.
  • ants_everywhere 2y ago
    They've certainly engaged in a lot of privacy theater before. For example > Apple oversells its differential privacy protections. "Apple’s privacy loss parameters exceed the levels typically considered acceptable by the differential privacy research community," says USC professor Aleksandra Korolova, a former Google research scientist who worked on Google's own implementation of differential privacy until 2014. She says the dialing down of Apple's privacy protections in iOS in particular represents an "immense increase in risk" compared to the uses most researchers in the field would recommend. https://www.wired.com/story/apple-differential-privacy-shortcomings/ https://www.wired.com/story/apple-differential-privacy-short...
  • lukev 2y ago
    That's a fine bit of goalpost shifting. They state that they will make their _entire software stack_ for Private Cloud Compute public for research purposes. Assuming they go through with that, this alone puts them leagues ahead of any other cloud service. It also means that to mine your data the way everyone else does, they would need to deliberately insert _hardware_ backdoors into their own systems, which seems a bit too difficult to keep secret and a bit too damning a scandal should it be discovered... Occam's razor here is that they're genuinely trying to use real security as a competitive differentiator.
    • davidczech 2y ago
      The first release set should be downloadable now for inspection. (It's binaries only, source is released for select components)
  • davidczech 2y ago
    That could be said of any device you own, ever.
  • 2y ago
• doctorpangloss 2y ago
  Privacy is the new obscenity. What does privacy even mean to you concretely? Answer the question with no additional drama, and I guarantee you either Apple doesn’t deliver what you are asking for, or you are using services from another company, like Google, in a way that the actions speak that you don’t really care about what you are asking for.
  • lukev 2y ago
    End to end encryption by default, such that the cloud provider cannot access my data. Easy.
    • doctorpangloss 2y ago
      > End to end encryption by default, such that the cloud provider cannot access my data. The App Store stores a lot of sensitive data about you and is not end-to-end encrypted. They operate it just like everyone else. You also use Gmail, which is just as sensitive as your iMessages, and Gmail is not end-to-end encrypted, so it's not clear you value that as much as you say.
      • lukev 2y ago
        I think "could a creepy admin see my nudes" or "can my messages be mined to create a profile of my preferences" are much more practical working definitions of privacy than "can someone see that I've installed an app". End-to-end encryption is certainly the most relevant feature for these scenarios. App store DRM is a red herring, as a developer I can still run as much untrusted code on my MBP as I want and I don't see that going away any time soon.
        • doctorpangloss 2y ago
          Apple can create a profile of your preferences, for preferences in the sense of things you want to buy. It has your App Store data! > "can someone see that I've installed an app" You say preferences and you didn't say what you mean. One meaning of the word preferences: what if you installed Grindr?
• geysersam 2y ago
  If you're so focused on privacy why don't you just use Linux? With Linux you'll actually get real privacy and you'll really truly own the system. Apple takes a 30% tax on all applications running on their mobile devices. Just let that sink in. We are so incredibly lucky that never happened to PC.
  • snoman 2y ago
    Which Linux?
  • EthicalSimilar 2y ago
    As much as anyone can say otherwise, running Linux isn’t just a breeze. You will run into issues at some point, you will possibly have to make certain sacrifices regarding software or other choices. Yes it has gotten so much better over the past few years but I want my time spent on my work, not toying with the OS. Another big selling point of Apple is the hardware. Their hardware and software are integrated so seamlessly. Things just work, and they work well. 99% of the time - there’s always edge cases. There’s solutions to running Linux distros on some Apple hardware but again you have to make sacrifices.
    • jwells89 2y ago
      Even on the machines most well-supported by Linux, which are Intel x86 PCs with only integrated graphics and Intel wifi/bluetooth, there are still issues that need to be tinkered away like getting hardware-accelerated video decoding working in Firefox (important for keeping heat and power consumption down on laptops). I keep around a Linux laptop and it's improved immensely in the past several years, but the experience still has rough edges to smooth out.
      • BeefWellington 2y ago
        > Even on the machines most well-supported by Linux, which are Intel x86 PCs with only integrated graphics and Intel wifi/bluetooth Uhh, this is just untrue. I have it running on three different laptops from different vendors and Fedora, pop_OS!, and Ubuntu were all pretty much drop-in replacements for Windows, no problems. You "keep around a Linux laptop" but I daily drive them and it's fine. Sure, there's the odd compatibility problem which could be dealbreaking, but it's not like MacOS is superior in that regard.
• nkmskdmfodf 2y ago
  > I am thrilled to shell out thousands and thousands of dollars to purchase a machine that feels like it really belongs to me, from a company that respects my data and has aligned incentives. You either have have very low standards or very low understanding if you think a completely closed OS on top of completely closed hardware somehow means it 'really belongs' to you, or that your data/privacy is actually being respected.
  • asp_hornet 2y ago
    Whats the alternative? Linux? Maybe OP likes that their OS doesnt crash when they close their laptop lid.
    • WuxiFingerHold 2y ago
      It's not that bad anymore (e.g. with system 76), but I understand the point. I disagree with OP celebrating Apple to be the least evil of the evils. Yes, there are not many (if any) alternatives, but that doesn't make Apple great. It's just less shitty.
      • _shantaram 2y ago
        It feels like a lot of people in these threads form their opinions of what desktop Linux is like these days based on one poor experience from back in 2005.
        • pas 2y ago
          yesterday I booted into my Kubuntu installation. it's on a rusty spinning disk on purpose. even after half of a century since the mother of all demos we still cannot preload the fucking "start menu" or whatever is the more correct technical term for that thing that _eventually_ shows the applications when you click on it.
          • righthand 2y ago
            There’s a bug for this? Or are you just complaining thinking someone in the software contributors world can here you? I can’t even find how to open the Applications view in Finder 9/10 times on a Mac.
• siajdsioajd 2y ago
  They just have really good marketing. You fell for their pandering. If you really care about privacy use Linux. But Apple ain't it. Closed source and proprietary will never be safe from corporate greed. >https://archive.ph/Z9z0H https://archive.ph/Z9z0H
  • bilbo0s 2y ago
    Linux doesn't give you privacy guy. If you're using the web, your privacy is about your browser and your ISP, not your OS. At times, it's even about how you use your browser. No browser will save you from telling google too much about yourself by using gmail, and viewing youtube videos, and using search. The AI's and algorithms collating all that information on the backend see right through "incognito" mode. Telling people they can get security and privacy by using Linux, or windows, or mac just betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the threat surface.
    • alexlll862 2y ago
      You missed the point completely. The problem with a user hostile closed OS like Windows is that they collect a lot of data from your computer even if you never open a web browser. You have no clue what they collect and what they do with the data
• crossroadsguy 2y ago
  Of late I have been imagining tears of joy rolling down the face of the person who decides to take it upon themself to sing the paeans of Apple Privacy Theatre on a given day. While Apple has been gleefully diluting privacy on their platforms (along with quality and stability of course). They are the masters at selling dystopian control, lock in, and software incompetence as something positive. It's most dangerous that they own the closed hardware and they own the closed software and then they also get away with being "privacy champions". It's worse than irony.
• heraldgeezer 2y ago
  >I am thrilled to shell out thousands and thousands of dollars to purchase a machine that feels like it really belongs to me, from a company that respects my data and has aligned incentives. Build a desktop PC, yes like a nerdy gamer. ^_^ Install Linux Been the way for years.
  • theshrike79 2y ago
    Gamer + Linux is asking for trouble though.
    • aswerty 2y ago
      At least these days - it means asking for less trouble. It really is improving leaps and bounds. But I still dual boot on my gaming PC, but I run a lot of games on Linux in compatibility mode and it works well a reasonable amount of the time.
    • heraldgeezer 2y ago
      You can build a workstation with Ryzen Threadripper. What I meant is it been more popular to build your own PC for gamers due to price and customization. Or for laptops, Thinkpad and Linux :)
    • aiisjustanif 2y ago
      When is the last time you tried it? I did yesterday and outside of Activision and some EA games it’s great.
• WuxiFingerHold 2y ago
  Nowadays, the only way to have a computer belonging to you is using Linux.
• stouset 2y ago
  You hit the nail on the head. And it’s something virtually everyone else replying to you is completely missing. Apple isn’t perfect. They’re not better at privacy than some absolutist position where you run Tails on RISC V, only connect to services over Tor, host your own email, and run your own NAS. But of all the consumer focused hardware manufacturers and cloud services companies, they are the only ones even trying.
  • lavela 2y ago
    You miss the point. It's not that I enact authority over my system in every detail all the time, but I want the ability to choose authority on the aspects that matter to me in a given circumstance.
• factorialboy 2y ago
  > I really respect Apple's privacy focused engineering. Everytime you launch an app, Mac OS dials home.
  • stouset 2y ago
    This is flatly incorrect. Before you reply that it’s definitely true, I encourage you to actually look up the details of the thing you think you’re upset about.
• aa-jv 2y ago
  > actually bulletproof Its only 'bulletproof' in PR and Ad copy, because for as long as the US is capable of undermining any tech company that operates within its purview with NSL's, the 'perception of security' is a total fallacy. In other words, the technology is not bulletproof, no matter how hard the marketing people work to make it appear so - only the society within which the provider operates can provide that safety. For some, this is an intolerable state of affairs - for others, perfectly tolerable.
• nobodyandproud 2y ago
  I purchased my first iPhone and Mac during Cook’s tenure, and strictly due to his serious stance on privacy.
• Writingdorky 2y ago
  You are just joking right? From a skill and trust point of view, Google is doing a lot better than apple will ever. Including ondevice AI
• qwertox 2y ago
  "10:24 – Flushed the toilet" is certainly more easy to transmit than an audio file which then must be analyzed in a datacenter. Let's see if they really care so much about privacy in 10 years, once LLM/AI has settled. But they do seem to respect it a lot more than Microsoft.
• gofreddygo 2y ago
  Apple isn't privacy focused. It can't at this size with this leadership. Privacy puts user interests first. Apple doesn't. Try exporting your private data (e.g. photos) from any modern apple device (one that you paid for and you fully own) to a non apple device that is an industry standard like a usb stick, or another laptop. Monitor some network traffic going out from your laptop. Try getting replacement parts for your broken idevice. Others aren't pretending to put your interests first, Apple though... Think for yourself. I don't comment here often anymore. Don't bother.
  • jki275 2y ago
    I can do all of those things, I do them regularly, except replace broken parts as that's not something I really have had to deal with much.
  • Toutouxc 2y ago
    Couldn’t have picked a worse example. I can literally plug a USB stick into the iPad I’m typing on and export my photos directly onto it.