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Not growing up in america I never understood what jaywalking was - I legit assumed it was a pedestrian crossing a freeway because nothing else made sense. Growi

• vasco 2y ago
  Jaywalking is any crossing in a wrong / illegal way, not about intersections specifically. Mostly it's about not using crosswalks, so I don't see how it collides with what Europe does. In Europe you also have differences with some countries where crosswalk lights are as a mandate from God and nobody will cross even at 2am deserted road. And then you have countries where the crosswalk lights are mere decorations.
  • e1g 2y ago
    I had an identity crisis in Germany when, at 2am on a deserted road, a group of hooligan-looking teenage boys told me off for crossing on red.
    • pm3003 2y ago
      Something like that happened to me on my first day as an adult in Germany. Wide road, Sunday afternoon, visibility over 1km in both directions, not a car in sight. I was accompanied by a girl from the place where I was to work. I had just met her and she was showing me to the nearby convenience store. She suddenly started screaming when I crossed the street while the pedestrian light was red. I didn't get what the problem was so I crossed back, to much drama. She (or her boyfriend) later told me there was a long-running campaign during the 90s aiming to curb pedestrian death, that featured vivid TV spots showing kids die because they routinely saw adults jaywalking and imitated them. So jaywalking = killing children. Also German children of all ages are encouraged to say to jaywalkers "You're not a good example for the children.". It happened to me more than once.
      • bell-cot 2y ago
        When there might plausibly be little kids watching, I make sure I'm very obvious about checking for oncoming traffic. Repeatedly. Before & during crossing the road. Where onlooking kiddies seem implausible, I pretty much do the same thing. Far better to be an obvious chicken than dead right.
      • macintux 2y ago
        I was observing a parade once and stepped into the stopped traffic to talk to a driver about his vehicle. I felt terrible later when I realized I had set a dangerous example for all of the kids around.
      • int_19h 2y ago
        This is also very much the agitprop in Russia, although in practice people mostly just ignore it. Sometimes in very frustrating ways, too, like crossing the road on red in front of an ambulance with the emergency light on.
  • timomaxgalvin 2y ago
    The distinction is about pedestrians being forced to use crossings. In the UK you can use them, but you can cross where you like if you want to.
    • Grimbat 2y ago
      Not entirely true. Generally true in England & Wales and Scotland aside from motorways, but in Northern Ireland the cops can fine you for it, although it rarely seems to be enforced. https://www.psni.police.uk/sites/default/files/2023-01/00008%20-%20Jaywalking%20.pdf https://www.psni.police.uk/sites/default/files/2023-01/00008...
    • Delphiza 2y ago
      Also in the UK we have pedestrian refuge islands. Not a crossing, as there is no pedestrian priority, but useful little bits of road furniture that reduces the likelihood of getting mown down by cars. As a side effect they also tend to slow down car traffic due to narrowing of the road. Americans may see them as official jaywalking points. https://www.trafficchoices.co.uk/traffic-schemes/refuge-island.shtml https://www.trafficchoices.co.uk/traffic-schemes/refuge-isla...
  • IshKebab 2y ago
    Which countries obey crossing lights as strictly as you describe? I've been to lots of European countries and none were like that. Not in the way that the US is.
    • vasco 2y ago
      Parts of Germany, lots of Poland, Austria, etc. South Europe where I'm from is "decoration land", but the more east you go the harsher they are/were with enforcement so the more people abide.
      • int_19h 2y ago
        In countries where open police corruption is more routine, cops love enforcing such laws because it's a very low-effort to extort bribes. Not even because the fine is significant, but because the procedure to pay it once given a ticket may be rather onerous compared to just handing over a banknote and going on your way.
    • keiferski 2y ago
      Germany and Poland both do this.
      • pm3003 2y ago
        In Poland I always respect the pedestrian lights. Contrary to France and even Germany, drivers expect you to respect them, and especially in Warsaw there is a very high tolerance on speeding on big wide arters. Cars crossing intersections at speeds of more than 90km/h (7.8 furlongs per minute for Americans) are usual in Warsaw.
        • nobody9999 2y ago
          >90km/h (7.8 furlongs per minute for Americans) As an American, I had to do the math on that -- which is really annoying. If you want to provide us with something we can understand, it's furlongs per fortnight, not per minute. ;)
        • 2y ago
  • olliej 2y ago
    Jaywalking is a pedestrian crossing outside of explicitly designated crossings points. In the US that means by *default( any pedestrian crossing any street at any location other than a pedestrian crossing or an intersection, regardless of distance to such a point. There is a massive difference between "country culturally tends towards using designated crossing points" and "it's a criminal offense to not use them". I'm curious about which countries outside of the US, especially in Europe, that criminalize jaywalking.
    • GuB-42 2y ago
      If France, the law states that a pedestrians should use designated crossing points if one is available within 50 meters. Crossing at a red light is also illegal. It is punishable with a 4€ fixed fine. I don't know of any lesser punishable crime and it is rarely enforced in practice despite jaywalking being common. But it is still a crime.
    • int_19h 2y ago
      It's a spectrum. E.g. in Russia it's illegal to cross the road if there's a crosswalk or intersection visible from the point where you cross it (and cops will fine you for it - or rather, attempt to extort a bribe).
  • rsynnott 2y ago
    > In Europe you also have differences with some countries where crosswalk lights are as a mandate from God and nobody will cross even at 2am deserted road I think that's mostly just certain parts of Germany.
    • Attrecomet 2y ago
      It was a fun evening with the guys from Bavaria in Berlin
• Dilettante_ 2y ago
  Do you not have pedestrian crossings/stoplights for pedestrians in your country?
  • foo42 2y ago
    In the UK we have various types of pedestrian crossing, but they're an optional convenience. You can use them, or you can find a safe place and time to cross yourself.
    • fire_lake 2y ago
      And if no one uses them, they weren’t well designed to start with.
      • oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
        I guess the jaywalking law is partly to avoid disrupting traffic, but the most efficient cross is the one when no traffic is present, and that's more likely in the middle of the road than at an intersection.
        • fire_lake 2y ago
          Yep - prioritisation of motorists is baked in. This makes sense for freeways but in cities this should be flipped.
  • oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
    In the UK, not at every intersection, by any means. In fact, it's probably a minority in many places. We're taught how to cross in the middle of the road.
  • olliej 2y ago
    Of course, the question is "is it a crime to cross a road outside of those designated points" in america the answer is often "yes". Which means the only legal place to cross a road is an intersection, which is significantly less safe for pedestrians. Next time you're going for a walk, try to estimate what % of intersections or crossing points are protected (stop signs for all roads, traffic lights, or barriers). Similarly, when you're out driving try and see how much you slow down for each intersection (ie non-jaywalking crossing points) - this is not a judgement on driving style this is just about working out relative safety. Any unprotected intersection you go through without significantly slowing down (think dropping to parking lot speed) for is a location where crossing away from the intersection is safer. Safety for pedestrians crossing a road is primarily from collision avoidance - as I said in another comment the amount of damage from a pedestrian vs vehicle collision high at even "low" car speeds.
• leptons 2y ago
  In most places, jaywalking typically means crossing outside of a crosswalk while being within a short distance of a crosswalk. It's more dangerous for pedestrians near crosswalks, cars are turning and have limited visibility, so using the crosswalk (when crossing is allowed, if there's a crossing indicator) is the rule. If you are a certain distance away from a crosswalk, you are allowed to cross the road but must yield to oncoming cars. It's really pretty simple and common-sense. Of course there are differences in local rules, but this is the way it usually works.
  • oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
    I think "no jaywalking because safety" would make more sense if crosswalks were totally safe. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in NY, can't traffic move over crosswalks even against traffic lights, in some circumstances? I always find that confusing-and frightening!
    • tsimionescu 2y ago
      In certain parts of the USA, cars are allowed to turn right from the first lane even on a red light, unless there is some explicit sign prohibiting it in that intersection.
      • fragmede 2y ago
        Unless expressly prohibited, eg by said sign, right-turn-on-red defaults to being legal across vthe US.
        • kube-system 2y ago
          Not entirely. Right-on-red is by default illegal in NYC, and will be soon in DC and Atlanta. Also a good number of states prohibit right-on-red by default when the red light is in the shape of an arrow.
        • ssl-3 2y ago
          Unless I'm missing something: Defining traffic laws is something that the states do on their own, and these aren't things that the federal government generally gets involved with. Thus, there are 50 different sets of these laws, plus DC. Any similarities between them may be nothing more than incidental.
• dominicrose 2y ago
  > crossing between intersections because it is vastly safer than crossing at intersections It's true in most city streets because even if cars drive faster outside of intersections, if we walk fast and have good visibility then it's not an issue. There are very busy roundabouts with crosswalks right next to them. As a driver having to stop means being scared for your car's behind.
  • olliej 2y ago
    The speed of vehicles is not super relevant in the context of the intrinsic safety for a pedestrian crossing the road. Assuming reasonable amounts of visibility. The safest way for a pedestrian to cross a road is a location where there is the greatest opportunity to avoid a collision at any speed. That means minimizing number of directions you need to watch for traffic, and maximizing the likelihood of being in the line of sight of drivers. That means you want to cross away from intersections. Crossing between intersections means that as a pedestrian you only have to be concerned about traffic from two (or even just one) directions, and for oncoming traffic you will definitionally be in the direction the drivers are facing. Crossing at intersections means as a pedestrian you are having to watch for traffic from more directions, including directly behind you, and traffic approaching the intersection has drivers who are necessarily going to be having to look at places other than directly in front of them in the case of traffic coming towards you on the street you are crossing, and traffic coming from the other streets may not by physically able to see you on the intersecting cross street (from their PoV) prior to actually reaching the intersection. Hence crossing between intersections is safer because it reduces the likelihood of any collision, as it's easier for everyone involved to be aware of everyone else. Speed of a pedestrian vs vehicle collision is much less of a safety factor than just not having the collision at all, because the difference in speed between "walk away" and "going to hospital" is very small - well within normal intersection speeds. At higher speeds of course the likelihood of going to the morgue skyrockets, but when considering the safety of "low speed" collisions it's important to consider a "low speed" collision that is minor for an adult is still easily able to kill a child, and the speed _required_ to kill is not that high as demonstrated by multiple pedestrian vs cyclist collisions that have killed people (I think generally older people or just really bad luck but its just important to recognize that the "serious damage to soft and squishy people" is way lower than people think).
• throwaway313373 2y ago
  > it is vastly safer than crossing at intersections Why is it safer?
  • macintux 2y ago
    Other comments have pointed out that intersections are difficult to cross safely because cars are coming from multiple directions, often in non-obvious ways. Between the intersections you only have two directions to worry about.
    • throwaway313373 2y ago
      Yes, but at intersections drivers are forced to slow down and look for traffic and maybe prepare to make a turn, so you can expect them to move slower and have more situational awareness. Am I wrong?
      • Schiendelman 2y ago
        You should be right! But you are misidentifying the problem. The problem here is not the norm, it's the exceptions. Some drivers don't slow down or pay attention. Those are the ones that cause all the risk. While normal drivers behave better at intersections, a pedestrian can't trust that every driver will do that. In a mid block crossing, you don't have to rely on drivers behaving a certain way, so the predictability is increased and the overall result is safer.
        • macintux 2y ago
          I witnessed a driver make an aggressive left turn as soon as a light turned green, to beat the first car going the other way. Unfortunately that aggressive left turn ended abruptly when they hit a pedestrian crossing the street on that same green light. Thankfully the pedestrian seemed mostly shaken up, but I have to imagine there were long-term consequences of that.